Fake Tanking

DawnsLight65

Sharpshootet2342 wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Tanks in Vet HM Trials exist to serve DPS and there's VERY rigid lines on what to spec/wear/use. Some Tanks enjoy this very specific playstyle while other people hate it with a passion as it's too limited.

This attitude is the problem. Tanks don't exist to "serve" anyone. As long as its not a leaderboard run tanks(and DPS and heals for that matter) should be able to wear whatever they feel helps them to the job best. Sure...if a tank is running around in Ironblood and Hatchling's Shell(just an example, those really arent very efficient) in a HM trial...all well and good if it helps them survive. The problem is that tanks are treated like buff monkeys forced to wear sets like Alkosh(nothing wrong with Alkosh, I wear it often enough myself if I feel it helps the group) that have stats that are just not any help for a classical tank. DPS tend to look at the tank as an extension of their DPS. Its fine to run things like Alkosh/Yoln/Powerful Assault etc etc...sets that buff damage are great...but being forced into buffing DPS over self-survival is the problem. Who cares if the DPS is lower without those sets being worn by the tank? As long as you meet the minimum DPS checks it doesn't matter at all unless you are doing leaderboard scoring.

Of course the tank should swap sets to whatever the content and group composition calls for, but it should be their choice...not being pigeonholed into it by the group that only cares about their own personal DPS. I'll put it differently...tanks and healers are called upon to sacrifice everything else to buff the DPS....the DPS don't have to sacrifice anything at all. No one makes DPS wear tank or healer sets "for the group". It makes sense for everyone to wear whatever helps the group get through content easiest...but generally tanks and healers are the only ones doing that.

What it all boils down to is that DPS get the attitude listed above...all in the pursuit of the highest damage numbers and being able to skip mechanics. Maybe some DPS should try dropping one of their sets and run Imperium or something of the nature for fights that there is high incoming damage...but we all know that will never happen.

In the end, it is what it is...tanks are forced to wear certain sets and run certain skills if they want to tank certain trials. A good number of tanks will be forever excluded from this content because of this attitude, unless they go in as a DPS and run whatever they want.

I find that as a support player myself that it helps me more to give the group more buffs and debuffs because it makes fights go more quickly. The longer a fight last the more mechanics all players have to go through which in turn will eventually lead to players running out of resources or more time to make mistakes that potentially wipe the group. So wearing sets like yoln/PA or Olo/jorvalds not only helps dps but it makes heals stronger due to higher spell damage. Higher heals= more time to buff or supply resources. More buffs= higher damage output by dps which makes the tanks job a lot easier because they can be confident in the healer and not have to self heal as much. It's group coordination and complimenting sets to get it done very efficiently. It's a TEAM. No matter if it's 4 man or 12 man content. All players should know how to play their roles properly or if they don't then join a beginner guild or look up videos or even ask others for help. A bad dps makes it not enjoyable for support players just as well as bad support make it not enjoyable for dps players.

My guild taught me RIGHT OFF THE BAT that Tanks are not DPS. They are there to take the focus of the boss, leaving the DPS to deal the damage to the boss without taking the brunt of the boss's damage. The healer keeps all three alive, and in turn, by quickly taking out the boss, the DPS and tank effectively protect the healer.

DawnsLight65

proteinexe wrote: »

I’m a fake tank I queue as tank as a PvP MagDK with heavy armour. I sit at 23k HP and slot a taunt.

Today was Banished Cells II. I tanked 7 crocodiles fire lizards at the end (the DD’s were both low CP hence why so many flamethrower lizards), I destroyed the healing balls and I kept my dot’s on the boss and did a total of 37% damage.

How did you figure out you did 37% of the damage?

Zulera301

The only time I ever fake tank is during the Undaunted event when I specifically queue for nFG1 for quick boxes.

And in my defense, my character has a real tank setup (heavy armour, taunt, sword&board, etc); I just switch to a DPS build because it's Fungal Grotto I on normal and you can basically solo that one with nothing but boots and a hat on.

Or in fine, I'm a real tank that queues as a fake tank for quick dungeon runs, on rare occasions.

sarahthes

Sharpshootet2342 wrote: »

PrimusNephilim wrote: »

This is on ZOS to correct, not players kicking players, they push the players to grind for gear, grind for achievements but what we have is a broken system, so what we have here is a simple case of cause and effect for any group setting in society, people don't want to wait an hour to run a dungeon, but the issue of fake tanks would evaporate (just about) if the queue times for DPS's weren't so disastrously long. The group finder is broken, the wait times for DPS's is absolutely ridiculous and only when ZOS takes this situation seriously and finds a working solution, we'll continue to have DPS players queuing as tanks.

PN

The que time for dps is so long because real tanks almost always go with a premade group. They don't que for a random group that the damage is so bad it takes 30 minutes to kill a boss that should take 5 minutes. So it's not all to blame on fake tank or fake healers. Dps should do their research to do decent damage because the longer a boss is up the longer a tank is having to hold it. Getting fatigued running out of resources. Healer is having to babysit dps because they don't have a self heal/shield so sometimes can't provide resources to the tank. Then tank dies fight starts over and what should have taken a very generous hour to complete if it's a dlc dungeon turns in 3+ hours. It's a group effort no matter who is lacking or not doing their job properly. It also helps if people research the content before doing it to have knowledge of basic mechanics.

A 40 minute normal Wayrest 1 is why I stopped pugging with my tank.

Kiash

This crap ruins the game for anyone who just started playing, is leveling, or actually wants to play the game instead of turning it into a skinner box grind fest. Totally blown away, and now after queueing for a random instead of forming a group for the first time in a while, I know why everyone else has left the game after trying dungeons the first few times.

The state of the game for anyone not max level and CP right now is garbage from the perspective of anyone who wants to do or enjoys dungeons.

renne

I love all the people in threads about fake tanks proudly bragging about how they queue as a fake tank and then talking about how they slot taunts and hold aggro and... fulfil all the basic tanking requirements.

Even if it's on a DPS build, if you're doing tank stuff, my friends, you are tanking. You're not fake anything.

Calm_Fury

renne wrote: »

I love all the people in threads about fake tanks proudly bragging about how they queue as a fake tank and then talking about how they slot taunts and hold aggro and... fulfil all the basic tanking requirements.

Even if it's on a DPS build, if you're doing tank stuff, my friends, you are tanking. You're not fake anything.

It is kind of amazing...

It is such a simple and straightforward definition, yet thread after thread, post aftr post, we see those "I fake tank but I use taunt" and "fake DPS" mixing everything up.

It is a lost cause, honestly. ZOS doesn't care, players will keep doing it.

I 100% lost hope that this will ever be address or removed from ESO.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

The real question is why are peoples DPS so low they even need a tank? I'm sick of fake DPS queueing as DPS...

Nordic__Knights

oddbasket wrote: »

The reasons tanks don't queue group finder are all in this thread quite literally, and they complain the most.

In veteran DLC dungeons, tanks are the carry, but they don't get the respect they deserve. Any other dungeons, they are not a necessity.

Expectations are so skewed between the roles, that those who complain are hypocrites. Only the tank role is expected to perform at top level in any content, normal, normal dlc, vet, vet dlc. However players who play other roles are easy to blame the tank when they are not at the top of their game, healers and dps always give this excuse that it's just normal, you don't need more than 20k dps, or you don't need so much healing, I help more by dpsing.

Only the tank can't give this excuse, such hypocrites. The way I look at it, if a tank with 17k health taunts and tank for you while carrying 50% of your group dps in a vet dungeon, you should be thanking him instead of calling him a fake tank and whining.

once you taunt and can hold it on demand your an tank , health ,ress, dps output, buffs/debuffs, NONE of this matters to be an tank #1 job of tank is to have control over the adds not having them run around randomly hitting others , and theres many types of tanks in eso bubble and sap tanking both deal damage to self heal to keep healer able to help dds and both can put out some high dps while holding adds in place

Nordic__Knights

Sarannah wrote: »

A tank's job isn't easy. One dungeon you are the hero(most of the time), and everyone wants to keep queuing the next pledge with you. Yet the next dungeon you are called names.

All this makes me think about who is in charge in a dungeon? ... I thought everyone was supposed to follow the tank? But my guess is players aren't used to this, as they expect every tank to be a fake tank now. Instead of a real tank who controls the group, and the situations surrounding them. So for alot of things, fake tanks are the blame.

If a tank stops moving, or does not pull something, they have a reason for it! Atleast I do.

Maybe a way to stop fake tanks is having to have atleast 5 pieces of heavy armor equipped, have the entire heavy armor skillline filled out(besides ultimate), have atleast 25k resistances, have atleast one taunt equipped, and have atleast 30k hp to be able to queue as a tank role at level 50. And ofcourse being unable to change gear/skills when inside a dungeon. Not below level 50 as players will still be leveling/learning/training, so they won't be able to meet those requirements yet. But at level 50, that is the very least players should be expecting from a tank.

that puts two very good tank types out the door to cant que land as an NBsap tank and magSORC bubble tank cant cover this as they dont use heavy armor


SO AGAIN TO BE AN TANK HOLD TAUNT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AFTER THAT ITS ALL UP TO YOU BLOCK , DAMAGE , CC , BUFF/DEBUFF BUT REMEMBER TO TAUNT AS ITS YOUR ONLY JOB AGAIN HOW YOU DO IT IS UP TO YOU JUST HOLD TAUNT

MirandaSharp

Nezyr_Jezz wrote: »

I love all the people in threads about fake tanks proudly bragging about how they queue as a fake tank and then talking about how they slot taunts and hold aggro and... fulfil all the basic tanking requirements.

Even if it's on a DPS build, if you're doing tank stuff, my friends, you are tanking. You're not fake anything.

-Exactly! Keep the baddies off your healer and dps! Even if you're naked or wearing a short skirt.. Don't think anyone cares really as long as you keep your taunt up!

newtinmpls

I'll try and keep all this organized....

Calm_Fury wrote: »

If someone reports you and you have a taunt and uses it, it can be even automatically dismissed. It is very easy to see, with all the data ZOS already has from dungeon runs, if someone is doing a fake report.

omnidoh wrote: »

Okay, so they can just slot a Taunt that they use once.
Report invalidated. Try again?

Report NOT invalidated. If ZoS is getting (and looking at) that level of detail; then "taunt used as 0.000002% of skills during run when queuing as tank" is a pretty easy thing to tease out.

omnidoh wrote: »

Anyone can queue as a "Tank" role, and then perform however they want.
Your approval of their tanking is not required.
If the group holds a majority, they can vote to kick if they want.
Even if they do, it will only burden the players who voted, not the individual who was kicked.
They'll just requeue.

True. Quitting will accomplish nothing. Reporting, in the very long term, will accomplish several things:

1-It will give ZoS data on how much people NOTICE and DISLIKE fake tanking
2-It will reinforce "standing up for yourself" behavior in the folks who do it.
3-It alleviates the frustration of dealing with a "fake tank" by providing an appropriate non-abusive option, which can then be investigated.

newtinmpls

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Moreover I could sue ZOS to release the clear name of the person who reported me and sue that person for serious slander.

My understanding is that Slander has to be public and to have public consequences. "In an MMORPG" is not a public situation.

As for who "reported you"; if there was going to be consequences, it would be likely that many "reported you" and that is not slander, it's people getting fed up with your behavior, and asking the person running the situation to investigate and take appropriate action.

Nordic__Knights

newtinmpls wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Moreover I could sue ZOS to release the clear name of the person who reported me and sue that person for serious slander.

My understanding is that Slander has to be public and to have public consequences. "In an MMORPG" is not a public situation.

As for who "reported you"; if there was going to be consequences, it would be likely that many "reported you" and that is not slander, it's people getting fed up with your behavior, and asking the person running the situation to investigate and take appropriate action.

Also known as oral or spoken defamation, slander is the legal term for the act of harming a person's reputation by telling one or more other people something that is untrue and damaging about that person. Slander can be the basis for a lawsuit and is considered a civil wrong (i.e., a tort).Nov 20, 2020

im not in the EU but here in the US trying to sue someone over reporting you using an system that is in place would take it from being slander due to using given way to report an problem , in turn giving info to be checked by place getting the reports and taking action due to THEIR findings , so the hopes that one could do this is very low if even posable in the courts

renne

Defamation law in every country has a lot more to it than "someone said something to someone else that is untrue." It's nowhere near that basic and would be laughed out of court, otherwise citizens of the EU would be suing everyone for every kind of defamation under the sun because someone said something mean or untrue.

"This person reported me for fake tanking when I was fake tanking so I'm going to sue them!!!" is little more than a infantile threat. ZoS is more likely to find you (the theoritical generic "you" who was banned after being reported for fake tanking while fank tanking, ofc) in breach of something in the ToS than you suing someone for defo like this.

Mike0987

After spending many many days in vDLC dungeons you get to understand at the 1st boss fight whether or not the tank, healer, or dps is good enough to be successful for the end boss content. At times, you simply leave the group because things are not going well due to either a tank that has no understanding of his roll, insufficient healing, or low dps.

starlizard70ub17_ESO

Nezyr_Jezz

MirandaSharp wrote: »

I think the solution is to display basic attributes of the group match up in the GF for you to accept or deny. If could see role, level and health/magicka/stamina distribution of the group members it's up to the players to accept the given group or not. If you deny you get thrown back into the queue just as now, and have to wait for next match up.

If you see the tank has 20K health and 40K stamina it's pretty obvious that it's a dps or solo build. But hey, he may be really good at controlling the battle in his own non-tanky way? And if your dps is low he may be a good boost in the dps department? Or you may get a stamina only healer.... The risk is yours to take.... At least you were informed about it before accepting.

DawnsLight65 wrote: »

Sharpshootet2342 wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Tanks in Vet HM Trials exist to serve DPS and there's VERY rigid lines on what to spec/wear/use. Some Tanks enjoy this very specific playstyle while other people hate it with a passion as it's too limited.

This attitude is the problem. Tanks don't exist to "serve" anyone. As long as its not a leaderboard run tanks(and DPS and heals for that matter) should be able to wear whatever they feel helps them to the job best. Sure...if a tank is running around in Ironblood and Hatchling's Shell(just an example, those really arent very efficient) in a HM trial...all well and good if it helps them survive. The problem is that tanks are treated like buff monkeys forced to wear sets like Alkosh(nothing wrong with Alkosh, I wear it often enough myself if I feel it helps the group) that have stats that are just not any help for a classical tank. DPS tend to look at the tank as an extension of their DPS. Its fine to run things like Alkosh/Yoln/Powerful Assault etc etc...sets that buff damage are great...but being forced into buffing DPS over self-survival is the problem. Who cares if the DPS is lower without those sets being worn by the tank? As long as you meet the minimum DPS checks it doesn't matter at all unless you are doing leaderboard scoring.

Of course the tank should swap sets to whatever the content and group composition calls for, but it should be their choice...not being pigeonholed into it by the group that only cares about their own personal DPS. I'll put it differently...tanks and healers are called upon to sacrifice everything else to buff the DPS....the DPS don't have to sacrifice anything at all. No one makes DPS wear tank or healer sets "for the group". It makes sense for everyone to wear whatever helps the group get through content easiest...but generally tanks and healers are the only ones doing that.

What it all boils down to is that DPS get the attitude listed above...all in the pursuit of the highest damage numbers and being able to skip mechanics. Maybe some DPS should try dropping one of their sets and run Imperium or something of the nature for fights that there is high incoming damage...but we all know that will never happen.

In the end, it is what it is...tanks are forced to wear certain sets and run certain skills if they want to tank certain trials. A good number of tanks will be forever excluded from this content because of this attitude, unless they go in as a DPS and run whatever they want.

I find that as a support player myself that it helps me more to give the group more buffs and debuffs because it makes fights go more quickly. The longer a fight last the more mechanics all players have to go through which in turn will eventually lead to players running out of resources or more time to make mistakes that potentially wipe the group. So wearing sets like yoln/PA or Olo/jorvalds not only helps dps but it makes heals stronger due to higher spell damage. Higher heals= more time to buff or supply resources. More buffs= higher damage output by dps which makes the tanks job a lot easier because they can be confident in the healer and not have to self heal as much. It's group coordination and complimenting sets to get it done very efficiently. It's a TEAM. No matter if it's 4 man or 12 man content. All players should know how to play their roles properly or if they don't then join a beginner guild or look up videos or even ask others for help. A bad dps makes it not enjoyable for support players just as well as bad support make it not enjoyable for dps players.

My guild taught me RIGHT OFF THE BAT that Tanks are not DPS. They are there to take the focus of the boss, leaving the DPS to deal the damage to the boss without taking the brunt of the boss's damage. The healer keeps all three alive, and in turn, by quickly taking out the boss, the DPS and tank effectively protect the healer.

They taught you wrong. Tanks can contribute a substantial dps to the overall dps done by the team if you build your tank the right way for the specific content. As a matter of fact both healers and tanks presented in guides by Alcast for instance are subpar to hybrid tanks and 3 dps teams in terms of efficiency on most content up to trials. This is where people going with high survivability gear to vet classic 4man dungeons fail to understand or are not taught to experiment. You dont need a 40k tank in all but few DLC dungeons/arenas and the classic approach to get a healer is skewed even more by the fact that every class in the game have a wide access to healing abilities and equipment (hello pale order ring) that can nullify any healer requirements.

Never let other people keep you in their closemindness. Invent, experiment, have fun. Don't follow guides blindly only because someone said so.

Nezyr_Jezz

On another note. Fake tanking is as broad term as SJW.

• You can play a dps and tank properly if you know how to taunt and get aggro.
• You can fail on the full tank build becase you just copied a "meta build" from Alcast
• You can go a hybrid tank that can solo most vet content and doesnt need any other player to actually finish the vet HM dungeon, but its a bit faster if he goes with the team.
• Failinig at your role happends at every role performed weather its a poor dps not knowing how to light weave, healer who cant clense or tank that cant aggro or use protection/buff package.
• This game requires an immense amount of time invested and a lot of open mindness to be able to perform at full capacity as your role. Without learning and playing you simply can't perform.
• Lastly a very valid point: imagine you have to wait 30+ minutes for a normal dungeon pop only to get a tank who doesnt know how to taunt and dying on each boss. I think we can agree we all been there once on either end. Now the question: knowing that you can solo said dungeon but your still required to use group finder to get the daily reward would you queue as a fake tank dps that will kill everything before it hits your teamates or wait those 30 minutes every time you want to get a specific item droped?

Nordic__Knights

Nezyr_Jezz wrote: »

On another note. Fake tanking is as broad term as SJW.

• You can play a dps and tank properly if you know how to taunt and get aggro.
• You can fail on the full tank build becase you just copied a "meta build" from Alcast
• You can go a hybrid tank that can solo most vet content and doesnt need any other player to actually finish the vet HM dungeon, but its a bit faster if he goes with the team.
• Failinig at your role happends at every role performed weather its a poor dps not knowing how to light weave, healer who cant clense or tank that cant aggro or use protection/buff package.
• This game requires an immense amount of time invested and a lot of open mindness to be able to perform at full capacity as your role. Without learning and playing you simply can't perform.
• Lastly a very valid point: imagine you have to wait 30+ minutes for a normal dungeon pop only to get a tank who doesnt know how to taunt and dying on each boss. I think we can agree we all been there once on either end. Now the question: knowing that you can solo said dungeon but your still required to use group finder to get the daily reward would you queue as a fake tank dps that will kill everything before it hits your teamates or wait those 30 minutes every time you want to get a specific item droped?

only time i fack an placement is with full group , if we are missing 1
we all play our place and enjoy an friendly run

Nezyr_Jezz

Nordic__Knights wrote: »

Nezyr_Jezz wrote: »

On another note. Fake tanking is as broad term as SJW.
only time i fack an placement is with full group , if we are missing 1
we all play our place and enjoy an friendly run

Why people assume automaticly that when im taking a stand thats contrary to a common conception im automatically an unplesant person. On the contrary. Most of the people i ran with either didnt wanted to learn and insulted me when i was trying to help them getting better - because obviosly they dont want to be lectured but suck at the game at the same time, or have strong lasting friendships that last for months now because they were actually interested in getting better at the game.

Basically after getting to around 300-400cp you can do classic normals solo or in a duo so you can do it how long you want.

Nordic__Knights

Nezyr_Jezz wrote: »

Nordic__Knights wrote: »

Nezyr_Jezz wrote: »

On another note. Fake tanking is as broad term as SJW.
only time i fack an placement is with full group , if we are missing 1
we all play our place and enjoy an friendly run

Why people assume automaticly that when im taking a stand thats contrary to a common conception im automatically an unplesant person. On the contrary. Most of the people i ran with either didnt wanted to learn and insulted me when i was trying to help them getting better - because obviosly they dont want to be lectured but suck at the game at the same time, or have strong lasting friendships that last for months now because they were actually interested in getting better at the game.

Basically after getting to around 300-400cp you can do classic normals solo or in a duo so you can do it how long you want.

id go an lil more and say 160cp for normals but thats me having years of game play too so 300cp for new players is about right too

and i get it ive been called everything but nice when helping others with builds/what to do, inside an group but that was that player not every other player after them so why take it out on them let it go and ENJOY THE GAME NOT TANK ON THE BAD and push it off on others just because all the time ,

AND if your burning yourself out to the point that running something makes you forget your an person (not your toon) then put the game down for an lil it well be here when you get back i know i stopped for 1 1/2 once

Nezyr_Jezz

Nordic__Knights wrote: »

snip...

Point of view is very tricky as its subjective and thus becomes a double edged sword. things that i enjoy do not have to be the ones you do and vice versa. That doesnt mean you have to impose them on me . I help random people as well as teamates, but i favour self criticism and adaptability as well as a will of self improvement and expect that from others. Having level 40 in the same queue as 810 will always create disparity and if your there for the first time you can actually interraact with the team by using /p and expressing your concerns. The team will or will not agree with you which will be strictly based on majority needs.

zaria

renne wrote: »

I love all the people in threads about fake tanks proudly bragging about how they queue as a fake tank and then talking about how they slot taunts and hold aggro and... fulfil all the basic tanking requirements.

Even if it's on a DPS build, if you're doing tank stuff, my friends, you are tanking. You're not fake anything.

Correct with two requirement, not dying all the time and not have the healer sweating blood keeping you alive.
If you also manages to do decent damage none will complain.

And yes this works well in most normal dungeons and easier vet. PvP and solo builds can go farther here as they are much more tanky than meta dps.
But don't rely on healer being real and people expect HM in base vet dungeons.

Starlight_Whisper

What if we add more dps