Fake Tanking

zaria

dcmgti wrote: »

If I queue as a dps and there's a fake tank, I expect them to taunt bosses and not die. This usually isn't the case though and that's where the problem lies.

I main a tank but also play as a dps on two alts. What gets me more than fake tanking is when one dps keeps running ahead of the group because they are in a hurry. This creates a really crappy situation for an actual tank and other members in the group. If you have an actual tank in the group let them control the room. More often than not that person running ahead is the one dying the most.

I've gotten to the point where I ask in my guild to run random normals vs a random queue.

This, now this works in normals if the player know how to play as in can block and has decent dps.
Yes you can get MHK or MoS but mostly

The main problem is then you get clueless players, no taunt, run around in circles doing tank level dps and try this in vet dungeons. Stuff like Selene or BC2 And yes standard is HM in non DLC dungeons.

One guild I'm in tend to run random normal any role or level is welcome, think its mostly people leveling alts calling this as its almost another <50 then I leveled my last alt.

Now tomorrow random dungeons give 10 transmute crystals. Well max cp players will start farming random normals.
I expect so many fake tanks it will be an queues for them

Kurat

Calm_Fury wrote: »

Below is a possible solution for this I've been suggesting for a while now.

First, let's list some things we already know ZOS does/monitors:

1. ZOS monitors dungeon runs: when they nerfed several vDLC dungeons, they explicitly said in the Patch Notes that they monitor dungeon completion rates and even know on which bosses most group fails. So there is already a system that records dungeon runs.
2. ZOS knows which skills people use: when they addressed the less used morphs, the patch notes explicitly said that ZOS monitors which skills/morphs people use in dungeons. We can also see from ESO Logs that they already can gather very detailed information from what players actually did.
3. ZOS already has systems to temporarily prevent people from using game systems: the Social Ban is a great example of a system that blocks players using certain parts of the game when they abuse it. Also, if you abandon a Battleground, you are prevented from queuing again for a certain time.
4. ZOS already has Report Player and Vote to Kick functions in place: self-explanatory, we've all used that at lease once.

So, considering all those things that are already in game, my proposed solution to the fake tanking problem is as follows:

Implement a Vote to Kick or, better yet, a Report Player option called fake role or something similar. When a player gets kicked/reported for fake role, a report is generated using the systems listed above, with the skills the player had equipped and how many times they used it. I think Report Player is better because a lot of times fake tanks queue with someone else that blocks the Vote to Kick options.

If someone is reported for take tank and the system sees the person had no taunt / didn't use taunt enough times, they get a temporary ban from using Activity Finder. Repeat offenders get increasing penalties up to a full month.

Get reported a few times and the system validated? 24 hours ban from AF.
Got reported again and the system validated? 48 hours ban from AF.
Got reported yet again and the system again confirmed the abuse? 72 hours ban from AF.

Then if they keep doing it, just slap one, two weeks ban.

This needs to be done. With the increase in transmute stones from Random Dungeons and Pledges, the plague of fake tanking will get even worst next patch.

EDIT: And btw, fake tanking doesn't just affect healers and DPS trying to queue. Just yesterday I was trying to do a pledge with my tank and got put in a half-finished run. The group had a fake tank and kicked them because they couldn't pass a boss. Since I think people should always kick fake tanks, I helped them finish even though it wouldn't complete my pledge since they had already killed one of the bosses. So, the fake tank wasted their time and my time. But it goes to show that fake tanking affects everyone, even proper tanks (this happens about once a week for me when I'm regularly tanking pledges)

Lmao. And what stops people from abusing the reporting system? When I'm the tank and make remark about someone's 11k hp or try to tell them mechanics or complain about low dps etc then some of the snowflakes may report me as payback. Or they may report me simply because they dont understand the game or mechs. You have no idea how noob some pugs can be. If there was some fake role reporting system currently, then I would probably be banned by now lol. Few examples: I recently tanked vMHK, first boss pinned me as per mech, no one interrupted so I got 1 shot. Immediately I got laughed at by some cp600ish dps. We wiped. 2nd try same thing, I told them what to do but they ignored and I got some serious hate after another wipe. Same thing happened in vFV first boss. Also some 10k dps wanted to kick me from vBRF before last boss. There are 3 adds before the boss comes, 1 minotaur pins 2 ppl and others have to interrupt. I was the one pinned every time and others didn't interrupt, the dps who died because of that blamed me for being a bad tank and said they need new one if they wanna clear it lol. All of in these examples would have reported me. I have trifecta achievements for almost all vet dlcs. I also change gear and skills sometimes in dungeon as needed to better support group at specific fights. If this was made impossible and some inexperienced toxic noobs were able to report me every time they didn't like something then I would stop using gf and I'm sure many other real tanks aswell.
I only fake tank normals and non dlc vets, I would never take fake to vet dlc.
People who point fingers should look in the mirror.
Implementing any sort of gear/skill check, restricting gear swaps, reporting and banning would have the opposite effect. Many fake tanks would stop indeed but also alot of real ones and the result would be double or tripled queue times.

Calm_Fury

Kurat wrote: »

Calm_Fury wrote: »

Below is a possible solution for this I've been suggesting for a while now.

First, let's list some things we already know ZOS does/monitors:

1. ZOS monitors dungeon runs: when they nerfed several vDLC dungeons, they explicitly said in the Patch Notes that they monitor dungeon completion rates and even know on which bosses most group fails. So there is already a system that records dungeon runs.
2. ZOS knows which skills people use: when they addressed the less used morphs, the patch notes explicitly said that ZOS monitors which skills/morphs people use in dungeons. We can also see from ESO Logs that they already can gather very detailed information from what players actually did.
3. ZOS already has systems to temporarily prevent people from using game systems: the Social Ban is a great example of a system that blocks players using certain parts of the game when they abuse it. Also, if you abandon a Battleground, you are prevented from queuing again for a certain time.
4. ZOS already has Report Player and Vote to Kick functions in place: self-explanatory, we've all used that at lease once.

So, considering all those things that are already in game, my proposed solution to the fake tanking problem is as follows:

Implement a Vote to Kick or, better yet, a Report Player option called fake role or something similar. When a player gets kicked/reported for fake role, a report is generated using the systems listed above, with the skills the player had equipped and how many times they used it. I think Report Player is better because a lot of times fake tanks queue with someone else that blocks the Vote to Kick options.

If someone is reported for take tank and the system sees the person had no taunt / didn't use taunt enough times, they get a temporary ban from using Activity Finder. Repeat offenders get increasing penalties up to a full month.

Get reported a few times and the system validated? 24 hours ban from AF.
Got reported again and the system validated? 48 hours ban from AF.
Got reported yet again and the system again confirmed the abuse? 72 hours ban from AF.

Then if they keep doing it, just slap one, two weeks ban.

This needs to be done. With the increase in transmute stones from Random Dungeons and Pledges, the plague of fake tanking will get even worst next patch.

EDIT: And btw, fake tanking doesn't just affect healers and DPS trying to queue. Just yesterday I was trying to do a pledge with my tank and got put in a half-finished run. The group had a fake tank and kicked them because they couldn't pass a boss. Since I think people should always kick fake tanks, I helped them finish even though it wouldn't complete my pledge since they had already killed one of the bosses. So, the fake tank wasted their time and my time. But it goes to show that fake tanking affects everyone, even proper tanks (this happens about once a week for me when I'm regularly tanking pledges)

Lmao. And what stops people from abusing the reporting system? When I'm the tank and make remark about someone's 11k hp or try to tell them mechanics or complain about low dps etc then some of the snowflakes may report me as payback. Or they may report me simply because they dont understand the game or mechs. You have no idea how noob some pugs can be. If there was some fake role reporting system currently, then I would probably be banned by now lol. Few examples: I recently tanked vMHK, first boss pinned me as per mech, no one interrupted so I got 1 shot. Immediately I got laughed at by some cp600ish dps. We wiped. 2nd try same thing, I told them what to do but they ignored and I got some serious hate after another wipe. Same thing happened in vFV first boss. Also some 10k dps wanted to kick me from vBRF before last boss. There are 3 adds before the boss comes, 1 minotaur pins 2 ppl and others have to interrupt. I was the one pinned every time and others didn't interrupt, the dps who died because of that blamed me for being a bad tank and said they need new one if they wanna clear it lol. All of in these examples would have reported me. I have trifecta achievements for almost all vet dlcs. I also change gear and skills sometimes in dungeon as needed to better support group at specific fights. If this was made impossible and some inexperienced toxic noobs were able to report me every time they didn't like something then I would stop using gf and I'm sure many other real tanks aswell.
I only fake tank normals and non dlc vets, I would never take fake to vet dlc.
People who point fingers should look in the mirror.
Implementing any sort of gear/skill check, restricting gear swaps, reporting and banning would have the opposite effect. Many fake tanks would stop indeed but also alot of real ones and the result would be double or tripled queue times.

When you fake tank you are also abusing the system. Abuse for abuse, I'd rather have people abusing the report than abusing the group finder, because ZOS probably already knows how to deal with Report abuse from all those salty PvPers that are sore losers and report people without cause.

And, again, you didn't read what I suggested fully.

If someone reports you and you have a taunt and uses it, it can be even automatically dismissed. It is very easy to see, with all the data ZOS already has from dungeon runs, if someone is doing a fake report.

And we already talked a million times in this thread how fake tanking is not a problem just on normal or base game dungeons. Since this thread was created, I, alone, got 3 fake tanks in vDLC Pledges that made impossible for my group to progress and resulted in 3 of us having to get the GF penalty AND wait again in queue to try another shot at completing it.

Anyway, I just think it is great all those recurrent fake tanks like you are coming here and admitting all this. All of you are actually helping us make our case that something must be done.

The more you all admit you do it, admit you don't care that it affects other people and admit you won't stop doing it, the easier it is for ZOS to see that it needs to change.

Honestly, this thread has been great. It is not always that people that abuse the system admit so openly like this that they do it and don't intend to stop.

@Milli_Rabbit thanks for creating this thread! It was great to have a good discussion and show why we need changes to stop fake tanking.

Kurat

Calm_Fury wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Calm_Fury wrote: »

Below is a possible solution for this I've been suggesting for a while now.

First, let's list some things we already know ZOS does/monitors:

1. ZOS monitors dungeon runs: when they nerfed several vDLC dungeons, they explicitly said in the Patch Notes that they monitor dungeon completion rates and even know on which bosses most group fails. So there is already a system that records dungeon runs.
2. ZOS knows which skills people use: when they addressed the less used morphs, the patch notes explicitly said that ZOS monitors which skills/morphs people use in dungeons. We can also see from ESO Logs that they already can gather very detailed information from what players actually did.
3. ZOS already has systems to temporarily prevent people from using game systems: the Social Ban is a great example of a system that blocks players using certain parts of the game when they abuse it. Also, if you abandon a Battleground, you are prevented from queuing again for a certain time.
4. ZOS already has Report Player and Vote to Kick functions in place: self-explanatory, we've all used that at lease once.

So, considering all those things that are already in game, my proposed solution to the fake tanking problem is as follows:

Implement a Vote to Kick or, better yet, a Report Player option called fake role or something similar. When a player gets kicked/reported for fake role, a report is generated using the systems listed above, with the skills the player had equipped and how many times they used it. I think Report Player is better because a lot of times fake tanks queue with someone else that blocks the Vote to Kick options.

If someone is reported for take tank and the system sees the person had no taunt / didn't use taunt enough times, they get a temporary ban from using Activity Finder. Repeat offenders get increasing penalties up to a full month.

Get reported a few times and the system validated? 24 hours ban from AF.
Got reported again and the system validated? 48 hours ban from AF.
Got reported yet again and the system again confirmed the abuse? 72 hours ban from AF.

Then if they keep doing it, just slap one, two weeks ban.

This needs to be done. With the increase in transmute stones from Random Dungeons and Pledges, the plague of fake tanking will get even worst next patch.

EDIT: And btw, fake tanking doesn't just affect healers and DPS trying to queue. Just yesterday I was trying to do a pledge with my tank and got put in a half-finished run. The group had a fake tank and kicked them because they couldn't pass a boss. Since I think people should always kick fake tanks, I helped them finish even though it wouldn't complete my pledge since they had already killed one of the bosses. So, the fake tank wasted their time and my time. But it goes to show that fake tanking affects everyone, even proper tanks (this happens about once a week for me when I'm regularly tanking pledges)

Lmao. And what stops people from abusing the reporting system? When I'm the tank and make remark about someone's 11k hp or try to tell them mechanics or complain about low dps etc then some of the snowflakes may report me as payback. Or they may report me simply because they dont understand the game or mechs. You have no idea how noob some pugs can be. If there was some fake role reporting system currently, then I would probably be banned by now lol. Few examples: I recently tanked vMHK, first boss pinned me as per mech, no one interrupted so I got 1 shot. Immediately I got laughed at by some cp600ish dps. We wiped. 2nd try same thing, I told them what to do but they ignored and I got some serious hate after another wipe. Same thing happened in vFV first boss. Also some 10k dps wanted to kick me from vBRF before last boss. There are 3 adds before the boss comes, 1 minotaur pins 2 ppl and others have to interrupt. I was the one pinned every time and others didn't interrupt, the dps who died because of that blamed me for being a bad tank and said they need new one if they wanna clear it lol. All of in these examples would have reported me. I have trifecta achievements for almost all vet dlcs. I also change gear and skills sometimes in dungeon as needed to better support group at specific fights. If this was made impossible and some inexperienced toxic noobs were able to report me every time they didn't like something then I would stop using gf and I'm sure many other real tanks aswell.
I only fake tank normals and non dlc vets, I would never take fake to vet dlc.
People who point fingers should look in the mirror.
Implementing any sort of gear/skill check, restricting gear swaps, reporting and banning would have the opposite effect. Many fake tanks would stop indeed but also alot of real ones and the result would be double or tripled queue times.

When you fake tank you are also abusing the system. Abuse for abuse, I'd rather have people abusing the report then abusing the group finder, because ZOS probably already knows how to deal with Report abuse from all those salty PvPers that are sore losers and report people without cause.

And, again, you didn't read what I suggested fully.

If someone reports you and you have a taunt and uses it, it can be even automatically dismissed. It is very easy to see, with all the data ZOS already has from dungeon runs, if someone is doing a fake report.

And we already talked a million times in this thread how fake tanking is not a problem just on normal or base game dungeons. Since this thread was created, I, alone, got 3 fake tanks in vDLC Pledges that made impossible for my group to progress and resulted in 3 of us having to get the GF penalty AND wait again in queue to try another shot at completing it.

Anyway, I just think it is great all those recurrent fake tanks like you are coming here and admitting all this. All of you are actually helping us make our case that something must be done.

The more you all admit you do it, admit you don't care that it affects other people and admit you won't stop doing it, the easier it is for ZOS to see that it needs to change.

Honestly, this thread has been great. It is not always that people that abuse the system admit so openly like this that they do it and don't intend to stop.

@Milli_Rabbit thanks for creating this thread! It was great to have a good discussion and show why we need changes to stop fake tanking.

Who do you suggest would handle all them reports? Do you realize how many dungeons are done every hour on every platform and server. They would have to hire several full time workers just to police dungeon reporting lol. They cant even handle current reports about bots, cheaters, exploiters etc. There are several threads where ppl complain that they reported someone for scamming or cheating and they still keep running into them. Cyrodiil is also full of cheaters/exploiters lol. Dungeon reporting would increase massive load because of salty, toxic, elitists, drama queens, noobs, mentally ill etc people in this game lmao.
If you're that sensitive then try to form your own group, play with the people you know. GF is always a bit of a gamble and always will be. Fake roles are not the only problem. I've seen more groups fail and disband because of incompetent players than fake roles. Its great that you wanna get rid of faking but what's next, we gonna start reporting bad players and ban them too?

omnidoh

Calm_Fury wrote: »

If someone reports you and you have a taunt and uses it, it can be even automatically dismissed. It is very easy to see, with all the data ZOS already has from dungeon runs, if someone is doing a fake report.

Okay, so they can just slot a Taunt that they use once.
Report invalidated. Try again?

Calm_Fury wrote: »

Anyway, I just think it is great all those recurrent fake tanks like you are coming here and admitting all this. All of you are actually helping us make our case that something must be done.

Nah, they're just either dismissing or invalidating your point(s).

Calm_Fury wrote: »

The more you all admit you do it, admit you don't care that it affects other people and admit you won't stop doing it, the easier it is for ZOS to see that it needs to change.

They're "admitting" what the system permits them to do, and the system already has stipulations which allow for a "group democracy". You're just lobbying for a situation that you personally don't like.
Well, I'm sure there are many players who don't agree with you. That doesn't make them "guilty" of anything.

Calm_Fury wrote: »

Honestly, this thread has been great. It is not always that people that abuse the system admit so openly like this that they do it and don't intend to stop.

It's not abuse until ZOS explicitly says that it is.
All your posturing will not change that fact.

Anyone can queue as a "Tank" role, and then perform however they want.
Your approval of their tanking is not required.
If the group holds a majority, they can vote to kick if they want.
Even if they do, it will only burden the players who voted, not the individual who was kicked.
They'll just requeue.

Calm_Fury

Kurat wrote: »

Calm_Fury wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Calm_Fury wrote: »

Below is a possible solution for this I've been suggesting for a while now.

First, let's list some things we already know ZOS does/monitors:

1. ZOS monitors dungeon runs: when they nerfed several vDLC dungeons, they explicitly said in the Patch Notes that they monitor dungeon completion rates and even know on which bosses most group fails. So there is already a system that records dungeon runs.
2. ZOS knows which skills people use: when they addressed the less used morphs, the patch notes explicitly said that ZOS monitors which skills/morphs people use in dungeons. We can also see from ESO Logs that they already can gather very detailed information from what players actually did.
3. ZOS already has systems to temporarily prevent people from using game systems: the Social Ban is a great example of a system that blocks players using certain parts of the game when they abuse it. Also, if you abandon a Battleground, you are prevented from queuing again for a certain time.
4. ZOS already has Report Player and Vote to Kick functions in place: self-explanatory, we've all used that at lease once.

So, considering all those things that are already in game, my proposed solution to the fake tanking problem is as follows:

Implement a Vote to Kick or, better yet, a Report Player option called fake role or something similar. When a player gets kicked/reported for fake role, a report is generated using the systems listed above, with the skills the player had equipped and how many times they used it. I think Report Player is better because a lot of times fake tanks queue with someone else that blocks the Vote to Kick options.

If someone is reported for take tank and the system sees the person had no taunt / didn't use taunt enough times, they get a temporary ban from using Activity Finder. Repeat offenders get increasing penalties up to a full month.

Get reported a few times and the system validated? 24 hours ban from AF.
Got reported again and the system validated? 48 hours ban from AF.
Got reported yet again and the system again confirmed the abuse? 72 hours ban from AF.

Then if they keep doing it, just slap one, two weeks ban.

This needs to be done. With the increase in transmute stones from Random Dungeons and Pledges, the plague of fake tanking will get even worst next patch.

EDIT: And btw, fake tanking doesn't just affect healers and DPS trying to queue. Just yesterday I was trying to do a pledge with my tank and got put in a half-finished run. The group had a fake tank and kicked them because they couldn't pass a boss. Since I think people should always kick fake tanks, I helped them finish even though it wouldn't complete my pledge since they had already killed one of the bosses. So, the fake tank wasted their time and my time. But it goes to show that fake tanking affects everyone, even proper tanks (this happens about once a week for me when I'm regularly tanking pledges)

Lmao. And what stops people from abusing the reporting system? When I'm the tank and make remark about someone's 11k hp or try to tell them mechanics or complain about low dps etc then some of the snowflakes may report me as payback. Or they may report me simply because they dont understand the game or mechs. You have no idea how noob some pugs can be. If there was some fake role reporting system currently, then I would probably be banned by now lol. Few examples: I recently tanked vMHK, first boss pinned me as per mech, no one interrupted so I got 1 shot. Immediately I got laughed at by some cp600ish dps. We wiped. 2nd try same thing, I told them what to do but they ignored and I got some serious hate after another wipe. Same thing happened in vFV first boss. Also some 10k dps wanted to kick me from vBRF before last boss. There are 3 adds before the boss comes, 1 minotaur pins 2 ppl and others have to interrupt. I was the one pinned every time and others didn't interrupt, the dps who died because of that blamed me for being a bad tank and said they need new one if they wanna clear it lol. All of in these examples would have reported me. I have trifecta achievements for almost all vet dlcs. I also change gear and skills sometimes in dungeon as needed to better support group at specific fights. If this was made impossible and some inexperienced toxic noobs were able to report me every time they didn't like something then I would stop using gf and I'm sure many other real tanks aswell.
I only fake tank normals and non dlc vets, I would never take fake to vet dlc.
People who point fingers should look in the mirror.
Implementing any sort of gear/skill check, restricting gear swaps, reporting and banning would have the opposite effect. Many fake tanks would stop indeed but also alot of real ones and the result would be double or tripled queue times.

When you fake tank you are also abusing the system. Abuse for abuse, I'd rather have people abusing the report then abusing the group finder, because ZOS probably already knows how to deal with Report abuse from all those salty PvPers that are sore losers and report people without cause.

And, again, you didn't read what I suggested fully.

If someone reports you and you have a taunt and uses it, it can be even automatically dismissed. It is very easy to see, with all the data ZOS already has from dungeon runs, if someone is doing a fake report.

And we already talked a million times in this thread how fake tanking is not a problem just on normal or base game dungeons. Since this thread was created, I, alone, got 3 fake tanks in vDLC Pledges that made impossible for my group to progress and resulted in 3 of us having to get the GF penalty AND wait again in queue to try another shot at completing it.

Anyway, I just think it is great all those recurrent fake tanks like you are coming here and admitting all this. All of you are actually helping us make our case that something must be done.

The more you all admit you do it, admit you don't care that it affects other people and admit you won't stop doing it, the easier it is for ZOS to see that it needs to change.

Honestly, this thread has been great. It is not always that people that abuse the system admit so openly like this that they do it and don't intend to stop.

@Milli_Rabbit thanks for creating this thread! It was great to have a good discussion and show why we need changes to stop fake tanking.

Who do you suggest would handle all them reports? Do you realize how many dungeons are done every hour on every platform and server. They would have to hire several full time workers just to police dungeon reporting lol. They cant even handle current reports about bots, cheaters, exploiters etc. There are several threads where ppl complain that they reported someone for scamming or cheating and they still keep running into them. Cyrodiil is also full of cheaters/exploiters lol. Dungeon reporting would increase massive load because of salty, toxic, elitists, drama queens, noobs, mentally ill etc people in this game lmao.
If you're that sensitive then try to form your own group, play with the people you know. GF is always a bit of a gamble and always will be. Fake roles are not the only problem. I've seen more groups fail and disband because of incompetent players than fake roles. Its great that you wanna get rid of faking but what's next, we gonna start reporting bad players and ban them too?

Have you ever worked with software? And data?

It is very easy to set some automated analysis and just tune it to eliminate false positives. I know, I do it every single day in my job. It is not gaming, but it is the same principle. It is a very trivial thing for someone to take a few dozen sets of data with a real tank and a fake tank and see the pattern.

And even if a fake tank needs to use taunt a few times to "skip" the check, it is already a win. We are already decreasing the problem by forcing those selfish people to at least start doing what they are supposed to do. I'd call it a win.

There is a big difference between bad players and malicious players.

Bad players are a part of random groups. Players that intentionally cheat the system are not. We are only trying to address the second problem here.

omnidoh

Calm_Fury wrote: »

Have you ever worked with software? And data?

It is very easy to set some automated analysis and just tune it to eliminate false positives. I know, I do it every single day in my job. It is not gaming, but it is the same principle. It is a very trivial thing for someone to take a few dozen sets of data with a real tank and a fake tank and see the pattern.

And even if a fake tank needs to use taunt a few times to "skip" the check, it is already a win. We are already decreasing the problem by forcing those selfish people to at least start doing what they are supposed to do. I'd call it a win.

There is a big difference between bad players and malicious players.

Bad players are a part of random groups. Players that intentionally cheat the system are not. We are only trying to address the second problem here.

Just speaking hypothetically here, but if I were a program manager for ESO or in any level of senior development and leadership, I'd consider everything about your proposal a complete waste of funding.

Especially considering there are already existing systems which let players address and respond to these situations, such as the aforementioned vote-kicking option, and others previously mentioned in this thread.

Calm_Fury

omnidoh wrote: »

Calm_Fury wrote: »

If someone reports you and you have a taunt and uses it, it can be even automatically dismissed. It is very easy to see, with all the data ZOS already has from dungeon runs, if someone is doing a fake report.

Okay, so they can just slot a Taunt that they use once.
Report invalidated. Try again?

Calm_Fury wrote: »

Anyway, I just think it is great all those recurrent fake tanks like you are coming here and admitting all this. All of you are actually helping us make our case that something must be done.

Nah, they're just either dismissing or invalidating your point(s).

Calm_Fury wrote: »

The more you all admit you do it, admit you don't care that it affects other people and admit you won't stop doing it, the easier it is for ZOS to see that it needs to change.

They're "admitting" what the system permits them to do, and the system already has stipulations which allow for a "group democracy". You're just lobbying for a situation that you personally don't like.
Well, I'm sure there are many players who don't agree with you. That doesn't make them "guilty" of anything.

Calm_Fury wrote: »

Honestly, this thread has been great. It is not always that people that abuse the system admit so openly like this that they do it and don't intend to stop.

It's not abuse until ZOS explicitly says that it is.
All your posturing will not change that fact.

Anyone can queue as a "Tank" role, and then perform however they want.
Your approval of their tanking is not required.
If the group holds a majority, they can vote to kick if they want.
Even if they do, it will only burden the players who voted, not the individual who was kicked.
They'll just requeue.

As I replied in the other post, this game is software and, for a problem as simple as this, tuning it wouldn't be hard.

And I am not going to go over again the whole "definition of tank" thing. Others have already replied to that literally with pictures and drawing if it is still that hard to understand, I won't waste my time with you anymore. If you can't understand this even when people post screenshots for the games UI with big, colorful drawings around it, I have no hope I will be able to make it clearer for you.

I'm always up for a good discussion, even in controversial topics, but everything has a limit.

On your other point, I'll say it one more time: the whole point of this thread is for ZOS to explicit address this as a violation.

You keep saying that what we are exposing here won't change the fact but this is exactly our goal. You keep being selfish and inconsiderate and abusing the system. We'll keep bringing the issue to ZOS' attention. I can't wait to read your thread complaining you can't use group finder when they do.

svendf

omnidoh wrote: »

Calm_Fury wrote: »

Have you ever worked with software? And data?

It is very easy to set some automated analysis and just tune it to eliminate false positives. I know, I do it every single day in my job. It is not gaming, but it is the same principle. It is a very trivial thing for someone to take a few dozen sets of data with a real tank and a fake tank and see the pattern.

And even if a fake tank needs to use taunt a few times to "skip" the check, it is already a win. We are already decreasing the problem by forcing those selfish people to at least start doing what they are supposed to do. I'd call it a win.

There is a big difference between bad players and malicious players.

Bad players are a part of random groups. Players that intentionally cheat the system are not. We are only trying to address the second problem here.

Just speaking hypothetically here, but if I were a program manager for ESO or in any level of senior development and leadership, I'd consider everything about your proposal a complete waste of funding.

Especially considering there are already existing systems which let players address and respond to these situations, such as the aforementioned vote-kicking option, and others previously mentioned in this thread.

Vote kicking is not a solution and never been in regarding to fake roles - bring one friend and you are safe.

omnidoh

Calm_Fury wrote: »

On your other point, I'll say it one more time: the whole point of this thread is for ZOS to explicit address this as a violation.

Except that it isn't a violation.
That is your opinion.
I'm not in disagreement that the situation isn't "optimal" for all participants, but there are no "violations" occurring here.

Calm_Fury wrote: »

You keep saying that what we are exposing here won't change the fact but this is exactly our goal. You keep being selfish and inconsiderate and abusing the system. We'll keep bringing the issue to ZOS' attention. I can't wait to read your thread complaining you can't use group finder when they do.

All that is being "Exposed" here is the disgruntlement of a group of players who are dissatisfied with the existing tools that are already built into the game to address these situations.

Calm_Fury wrote: »

I can't wait to read your thread complaining you can't use group finder when they do.

Except that you won't because I won't.
I don't have any issue with Fake Tanks, as it's not a problem that affects me, or many others.
I also don't have issue with "Fake Tanking", since again it's not a problem that affects me, or many others.

What I'm lobbying against is the punishment of players who are not breaking any existing rules or ZOS terms of service, which is precisely what your stance has advocated for. The available solutions for these situations already exist. There is no need for further agitation or disruption of an already functional system.
We don't always get what we want out of every situation.
Welcome to MMO's Life.

omnidoh

svendf wrote: »

Vote kicking is not a solution and never been in regarding to fake roles - bring one friend and you are safe.

Welcome to Democracy.

idk

Raideen wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

I fake tank every day I play, I don't do it intentionally though. An AOE taunt for tanks might be nice to keep mobs off me.

Run with a decent tank and do not stand still while dropping AoEs. Circle around the group.

I already do and I already do and yet the problem persists.
(you are talking to a master kiter)

If this is the case then you would not be grabbing agro on lots of mob in pulls merely because you used an AoE.

BTW, what fight was that where you were with a tank that had problems holding onto multiple daedroth?

Calm_Fury

omnidoh wrote: »

Calm_Fury wrote: »

On your other point, I'll say it one more time: the whole point of this thread is for ZOS to explicit address this as a violation.

Except that it isn't a violation.
That is your opinion.
I'm not in disagreement that the situation isn't "optimal" for all participants, but there are no "violations" occurring here.

Calm_Fury wrote: »

You keep saying that what we are exposing here won't change the fact but this is exactly our goal. You keep being selfish and inconsiderate and abusing the system. We'll keep bringing the issue to ZOS' attention. I can't wait to read your thread complaining you can't use group finder when they do.

All that is being "Exposed" here is the disgruntlement of a group of players who are dissatisfied with the existing tools that are already built into the game to address these situations.

Calm_Fury wrote: »

I can't wait to read your thread complaining you can't use group finder when they do.

Except that you won't because I won't.
I don't have any issue with Fake Tanks, as it's not a problem that affects me, or many others.
I also don't have issue with "Fake Tanking", since again it's not a problem that affects me, or many others.

What I'm lobbying against is the punishment of players who are not breaking any existing rules or ZOS terms of service, which is precisely what your stance has advocated for. The available solutions for these situations already exist. There is no need for further agitation or disruption of an already functional system.
We don't always get what we want out of every situation.
Welcome to MMO's Life.

Look, I'm all for a good discussion, even when people don't share the same view as I do, but this back and forth between me, you and Kurat has clearly stopped being productive and is going nowhere.

The points you 2 keep repeating have been addressed several times in this thread by me and other people that have actually addressed it better than I did.

So, respectfully, I'll stop replying to both of you because it won't do the greater discussion any good anymore.

I'll keep posting here because you 2 are right on one thing: ZOS has never officially positioned themselves on that matter in light of all the confessions of people clearly abusing the system.

For me and a lot of people it is very clear what the Group Finder roles are all about and the consequences of players not honoring that are obvious.

Personally, I'm just going to start reporting people that fake tank, specially in vet dungeons, and I'll let ZOS deal with it. Vote to Kick is very obviously not effective or this issue wouldn't be as widespread as it it now.

LashanW

Kurat wrote: »

Few examples: I recently tanked vMHK, first boss pinned me as per mech, no one interrupted so I got 1 shot. Immediately I got laughed at by some cp600ish dps. We wiped. 2nd try same thing, I told them what to do but they ignored and I got some serious hate after another wipe. Same thing happened in vFV first boss. Also some 10k dps wanted to kick me from vBRF before last boss. There are 3 adds before the boss comes, 1 minotaur pins 2 ppl and others have to interrupt. I was the one pinned every time and others didn't interrupt, the dps who died because of that blamed me for being a bad tank and said they need new one if they wanna clear it lol.

You pug vet dlc dungeons as a tank? You sir, I applaud. I did it once or twice (vDoM and vBRF), I made a promise to myself that I'd never waste my time like that again. I agree with you regarding a "report system" being a bad idea. Many times I've been blamed when last boss in vet Arx Corinium chased a random person. Only ZoS can handle a system to stop fake tanks, that power should not be given to the community.

omnidoh wrote: »

I don't have any issue with Fake Tanks, as it's not a problem that affects me, or many others.
I also don't have issue with "Fake Tanking", since again it's not a problem that affects me, or many others.

Personally I don't have any issues with fake tanks either. I've two 90k+ DDs (magsorc and magblade) with high self heals / shields that it wouldn't matter at all if a boss decide to focus me. I'd just keep them in place and burn them down, and occasional dodging of the heavies.

The reason I oppose fake tanks (those in tank role that never taunt) is not the well experienced player base that are not affected by it. The reason is the inexperienced and newer player base. I've seen what happens to them when bosses go after them and they just panic and have a very bad experience. Saw a level 48 healer in nMHK and he kept getting killed by some bosses and giant werewolves (there was a fake tank, he wasn't a learning tank. Just a pure stamplar who never bothered to taunt), healer kept saying sorry every time they died. They paid for the game same as you and I do, we've no right to ruin their gaming experience. Plenty of people game even more in these troubled times as a means of stress release, ruining their experience is not nice at all.

omnidoh

Calm_Fury wrote: »

Personally, I'm just going to start reporting people that fake tank, specially in vet dungeons, and I'll let ZOS deal with it. Vote to Kick is very obviously not effective or this issue wouldn't be as widespread as it it now.

How do you define "Widespread"?
Do you have actual data to support the number of de-facto proven examples?

I appreciate your candor, however I did not come here to reply specifically to you.
As I mentioned previously, I am lobbying against unjust punishment of any player that is utilizing the existing in-game systems in accordance with ZOS' terms of service.
"Fake Tanking" is not a violation of any existing rules.

As for "reporting" players whose choice of play does not meet your personal expectations or standards, I would advise against frivolous use of the customer support tool.

As you can see from the sub-categories listed for reporting other players, there is no category for "Fake Tanking", leaving "Other" as the only possible option.

I'd wager that ZOS's support staff have sufficient existing legitimate complaints and concerns to address as it is.

Cheerio.

AyaDark

Fake tanking abusing ? Can i have button - fake gamer that play bad abusing ?
Seriosly - some DD solo content on vet - because they are veterans.
Do not go vet - if you are not veterans !!!

Or I can not understand it this problem on normal ? Is fake tanking problem for normals ??? Is it really possible to have any problems on normal ?

renne

AyaDark wrote: »

Fake tanking abusing ? Can i have button - fake gamer that play bad abusing ?
Seriosly - some DD solo content on vet - because they are veterans.
Do not go vet - if you are not veterans !!!

Or I can not understand it this problem on normal ? Is fake tanking problem for normals ??? Is it really possible to have any problems on normal ?

This entire thread is full of examples of how fake tanking is a problem in normal so I feel like saying "is it really possible to have any problems on normal" is pretty disingenuous, particularly considering there's an example of the kinds of problems that happen on normal from nMHK only two posts above yours.

Just because experienced players don't have an issue with it doesn't mean it isn't a problem for new and inexperienced players.

AyaDark

renne wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Fake tanking abusing ? Can i have button - fake gamer that play bad abusing ?
Seriosly - some DD solo content on vet - because they are veterans.
Do not go vet - if you are not veterans !!!

Or I can not understand it this problem on normal ? Is fake tanking problem for normals ??? Is it really possible to have any problems on normal ?

This entire thread is full of examples of how fake tanking is a problem in normal so I feel like saying "is it really possible to have any problems on normal" is pretty disingenuous, particularly considering there's an example of the kinds of problems that happen on normal from nMHK only two posts above yours.

Just because experienced players don't have an issue with it doesn't mean it isn't a problem for new and inexperienced players.

Oh my. I understand it now. It is like i saw 1 twitch where party try do some dunguan.
They come from wow and tank try to agr with light atacks (with damage), and dd use some thing strange too.

It was funny - because he even have agr this way of some bosses - i think he dps more than some dd in this party. But when dd with bow get agro and run with boss he can do nothing.

But it is possible to get not fake tank - but tank like this.
On normals DD can really tank any DLC. Not so much damage they get - but DLC is about communication.

Even with perfect tank if you will not free tank, do mechaniks - you will not pass.

Once we have situation - we go and get to some vDLC - bloodforge may be. We were on 2 dd. Tank dies - was not heal enough. My wife was so angry - that from some mob she drop white restoration staff and she was healer before. She heal with it and no one die after it and we pass.

In normalit is possible do the same - take any white shield and sword and it is possible to tank with it.

Normals was designed for no CP players.

Yes may be it is not your role,but if you see some one can not do it good, why not help him ?

Sarannah

There needs to be a solution against fake tanks, but I do agree with them... having players do this themselves, even with a report function, never works out well! And it would mean more work for ZOS.

The best solution remains placing hard requirements on the groupfinder role(s), to be able to queue as that role. And no gear/skill/CP-swapping in dungeons.

sionIV

Tanking in ESO isn't difficult. There are certain requirements for tanks that aren't there for other roles: knowing the map, knowing the boss mechanics, etc. Those requirements might be intimidating, but they don't make tanking difficult. I've been tanking in MMOs since early 2005, and I've been tanking in many different MMOs, and some of those (WoW, etc) at a very high level. While I did enjoy tanking in some of those MMOs, I do not enjoy tanking in ESO, even though I still do it. The reason that I don't enjoy tanking in ESO is that outside of trials and a few veteran DLC dungeons, it's not really required. There are no defensive cooldowns that you have to juggle and the healer isn't running out of resources.

I can build a bruiser (tank/DPS hybrid) and I can tank just as well as if I ran a full tank setup, while dealing a lot more damage (20-30K). One of my most efficient tanks when it comes to clearing dungeons, is my (lightning themed) Altmer Sorcerer with Stormfist/Thunderbug/Overwhelming Surge (5h - 1m - 1l).

[Buffed stats]

- 3722 Spell Damage
- 35% Spell Critical
- 11500 Spell Penetration (major breach)
- 32k Resistances
- 29k Health/ 34k Magicka / 15K Stamina

The only 'tanking' skill that I run on my bar is Pierce Armor, and that's just as much for the penetration as it is for the taunt. I never run out of resources, and thanks to Surge and Dark Conversion, I don't require healing in 95% of the dungeons I do. I can solo almost all non DLC veteran and normal DLC dungeons (the exception are a few bosses with mechancis that require at least one more person). Before I ran this character, I ran a Magicka (frost) warden tank, that had good damage and was able to heal good enough for us not needing a dedicated healer. I ran both Tank/Heal on that warden, and I often ended up doing pledges with 3x DPS.

While both of these characters have a taunt slotted, and were close to resistance capped, they wouldn't be able to tank if ESO ended up implementing some draconic tanking requirements. These tanking requirements aren't needed, and if anything, they would kill build diversity. I don't mind going 'full tank', but for that to happen, the content needs to be difficult enough, which it isn't.

I am fully aware that what I play is considered a 'selfish' tank, and if I had a 'GOOD' group, my group would benefit more from me running buff sets (which I do own), than gearing for DPS. The issue is that it's so rare to get a 'good' group, that it's more efficient to build for DPS than for buffing your team. There is only so much you can improve a base 2-3K DPS.

I have had no complaints when it comes to my tanking, as the dungeons go fast and it's very rare for people to die. On the other side, I've had a lot of compliments and good feedback, as I often pull big groups and people have the chance to drop their ultimates/AoEs and see big numbers.

From what I've seen in this thread, most of the toxicity, finger pointing and narrow mindness comes from one side of the discussion. There will always be bad tanks, and there will always be bad fake tanks, but that doesn't mean that everyone who does a good job should suffer for it.

We do not need draconian tank requirements in ESO.

AyaDark

Sarannah wrote: »

There needs to be a solution against fake tanks, but I do agree with them... having players do this themselves, even with a report function, never works out well! And it would mean more work for ZOS.

The best solution remains placing hard requirements on the groupfinder role(s), to be able to queue as that role. And no gear/skill/CP-swapping in dungeons.

And no tank just go with you. You get zero tanks in slot - and all be happy. Problem resolved.

With the same result may be you just stop go there ? And people who had no problems with it just will be happy ?

AyaDark

sionIV wrote: »

Tanking in ESO isn't difficult. There are certain requirements for tanks that aren't there for other roles: knowing the map, knowing the boss mechanics, etc. Those requirements might be intimidating, but they don't make tanking difficult. I've been tanking in MMOs since early 2005, and I've been tanking in many different MMOs, and some of those (WoW, etc) at a very high level. While I did enjoy tanking in some of those MMOs, I do not enjoy tanking in ESO, even though I still do it. The reason that I don't enjoy tanking in ESO is that outside of trials and a few veteran DLC dungeons, it's not really required. There are no defensive cooldowns that you have to juggle and the healer isn't running out of resources.

I can build a bruiser (tank/DPS hybrid) and I can tank just as well as if I ran a full tank setup, while dealing a lot more damage (20-30K). One of my most efficient tanks when it comes to clearing dungeons, is my (lightning themed) Altmer Sorcerer with Stormfist/Thunderbug/Overwhelming Surge (5h - 1m - 1l).

[Buffed stats]

- 3722 Spell Damage
- 35% Spell Critical
- 11500 Spell Penetration (major breach)
- 32k Resistances
- 29k Health/ 34k Magicka / 15K Stamina

The only 'tanking' skill that I run on my bar is Pierce Armor, and that's just as much for the penetration as it is for the taunt. I never run out of resources, and thanks to Surge and Dark Conversion, I don't require healing in 95% of the dungeons I do. I can solo almost all non DLC veteran and normal DLC dungeons (the exception are a few bosses with mechancis that require at least one more person). Before I ran this character, I ran a Magicka (frost) warden tank, that had good damage and was able to heal good enough for us not needing a dedicated healer. I ran both Tank/Heal on that warden, and I often ended up doing pledges with 3x DPS.

While both of these characters have a taunt slotted, and were close to resistance capped, they wouldn't be able to tank if ESO ended up implementing some draconic tanking requirements. These tanking requirements aren't needed, and if anything, they would kill build diversity. I don't mind going 'full tank', but for that to happen, the content needs to be difficult enough, which it isn't.

I am fully aware that what I play is considered a 'selfish' tank, and if I had a 'GOOD' group, my group would benefit more from me running buff sets (which I do own), than gearing for DPS. The issue is that it's so rare to get a 'good' group, that it's more efficient to build for DPS than for buffing your team. There is only so much you can improve a base 2-3K DPS.

I have had no complaints when it comes to my tanking, as the dungeons go fast and it's very rare for people to die. On the other side, I've had a lot of compliments and good feedback, as I often pull big groups and people have the chance to drop their ultimates/AoEs and see big numbers.

From what I've seen in this thread, most of the toxicity, finger pointing and narrow mindness comes from one side of the discussion. There will always be bad tanks, and there will always be bad fake tanks, but that doesn't mean that everyone who does a good job should suffer for it.

We do not need draconian tank requirements in ESO.

Selfish tank for selfish groups.

If they want not selfish tank - then HEAL me

Heeeal where is heal ? HPS of 2 heals in some groups is 1 k !!! In trials.

In meta raids 25k hps.

How do they expect tank survive with heal like this ?

Selfish ? It is better than they deserve, they deserve no tank at all !

Kurat

Why dont people who complain about fake tanks roll tank themselves. Level a tank, farm gear and enjoy watching 5k dps [snip] boss. Then you won't see fake tanks and also help shorten the dps queue, win-win for all.

[Edited to remove Inappropriate Content]

KaGaOri

Kurat wrote: »

Why dont people who complain about fake tanks roll tank themselves. Level a tank, farm gear and enjoy watching 5k dps [snip] boss. Then you won't see fake tanks and also help shorten the dps queue, win-win for all.

Why don't people fake tanking roll actual tanks themselves? Then we wouldn't see fake tanks either. And perhaps then half of dungeon runs wouldn't be wasted because a) "tank" can't hold agro causing wipe after wipe / forcing someone else to face-tank, or b) "tank" more or less soloes the dungeon, preferably by skipping parts of it, making learning mechanics / quest completion impossible.

Btw: in my experience bad dps is usually result of no one tanking / healing, since dds spent most of the time dead, resing someone, casting self heals and shields and running from enemies, instead of damage dealing.

AyaDark

Kurat wrote: »

Why dont people who complain about fake tanks roll tank themselves. Level a tank, farm gear and enjoy watching 5k dps [snip] boss. Then you won't see fake tanks and also help shorten the dps queue, win-win for all.

Because you need do something to do a tank, and they do not want to do anything - L - logick

sionIV

KaGaOri wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Why dont people who complain about fake tanks roll tank themselves. Level a tank, farm gear and enjoy watching 5k dps [snip] boss. Then you won't see fake tanks and also help shorten the dps queue, win-win for all.

Why don't people fake tanking roll actual tanks themselves? Then we wouldn't see fake tanks either. And perhaps then half of dungeon runs wouldn't be wasted because a) "tank" can't hold agro causing wipe after wipe / forcing someone else to face-tank, or b) "tank" more or less soloes the dungeon, preferably by skipping parts of it, making learning mechanics / quest completion impossible.

Btw: in my experience bad dps is usually result of no one tanking / healing, since dds spent most of the time dead, resing someone, casting self heals and shields and running from enemies, instead of damage dealing.

Minus being dead, you can do most of these things while light attacking. A bad tank can result in a DPS loss for team members, but it's the ones with good DPS and rotation that suffer the most. The Bosmer Warden who light attacks with a bow won't see a shift in her DPS if there is chaos or not.

You're doing bad DPS because you don't know your rotations, and that has everything to do with you, and rarely anything to do with the tank.

svendf

AyaDark wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Why dont people who complain about fake tanks roll tank themselves. Level a tank, farm gear and enjoy watching 5k dps [snip] boss. Then you won't see fake tanks and also help shorten the dps queue, win-win for all.

Because you need do something to do a tank, and they do not want to do anything - L - logick

Ok ? When the issue regarding long waiting time for dd´s became an issue for me, I simply made three healers and dusting off my 2nd tank - my dds are only for trials.

More and more seems interesting in trying out tanking, which is posiive - seen in the light of how demanding it is compared to other roles.

Your post above do not have any logic or thruth to it.

Replying to posters, who goes in circles and posting for the sake of posting ain´t worth it - t´s all about draining. Nothing else

sionIV

svendf wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Why dont people who complain about fake tanks roll tank themselves. Level a tank, farm gear and enjoy watching 5k dps [snip] boss. Then you won't see fake tanks and also help shorten the dps queue, win-win for all.

Because you need do something to do a tank, and they do not want to do anything - L - logick

Ok ? When the issue regarding long waiting time for dd´s became an issue for me, I simply made three healers and dusting off my 2nd tank - my dds are only for trials.

More and more seems interesting in trying out tanking, which is posiive - seen in the light of how demanding it is compared to other roles.

Your post above do not have any logic or thruth to it.

Replying to posters, who goes in circles and posting for the sake of posting ain´t worth it - t´s all about draining. Nothing else

The issue here is that tanking is NOT that demanding, which is the reason you have DPS sign up as tanks with a taunt, and completing dungeons.

Unlike other MMOS, the layout of dungeons in ESO is straight forward and you can't get lost, so the tank doesn't have to know the dungeon layout. Compare something like Fungal Grotto I to Maraudon or BRD from classic WoW and you'll see how simple it is.

While you are required to know the boss tactics, so are the DPS and healers. I can see an argument for it being more important for a tank not to die to boss mechancis, but if you're in danger of that, you're doing harder content where everyone should know the tactics or burn the boss down quick enough to ignore them.

As a tank you don't need a specific item set, you can tank in pretty much anything, as long as you get some resistances (mundus, CP, etc) and some pieces of armor with health on them.

When it comes to boss fights, you'll get through all normal non DLC dungeons and most normal veteran dungeons by just standing still and taunting the boss, and once in a while you'll do the super demanding 'walk out of red circle'.

You don't have to worry about using skills correctly to survive, your healer will never run out of resources and if you slot a healing skill yourself, you won't even need a healer for the majority of content.

The one thing you have to learn as a tank, that the other roles don't have to, is knowing when to block.

From one tank to another:

Tanking is not demanding in ESO.
Tanking is not difficult in ESO.
Tanking has a few (minor) requirements in ESO.

If Zenimax actually made tanking demanding or difficult in ESO, you wouldn't have all of these 'fake tanks' running around. It's the same reasons people don't need a dedicated healer, because it's not difficult nor is it demanding, if anything, it's too easy.

Zodiarkslayer

@Calm_Fury While I understand where your propositions come from, I fear they will be legally impossible to enforce.
The thing is by buying a product from you, you, the seller, are in responsibility to ensure the customer can use the product. The only exception is serious misuse or abusive use. In North America that is enforced pretty loosely. But in Europe it is very different.

A hypothetical case: If I were Fake tanking and be banned based on your report, I would have legal cause to sue ZOS in any state of the EU.
That is not a joke. Customer rights are pretty tight over here. Moreover I could sue ZOS to release the clear name of the person who reported me and sue that person for serious slander. And that person would have to recompense me for the damage in reputation I suffered and the inability to use a product I legally had to be able to use.

Just so that you know: I studied economics and legal was a BIG part of it. I know it to be true.

Sarannah

Kurat wrote: »

Why dont people who complain about fake tanks roll tank themselves. Level a tank, farm gear and enjoy watching 5k dps [snip] boss. Then you won't see fake tanks and also help shorten the dps queue, win-win for all.

You do realize I am posting this as a tank, who gets placed in half-finished runs more often than start a full run. Low DPS is a terribly overused excuse. It takes two-three pulls for players to get used to a real tank having their backs, and then they start DPSing for real! Just like fake tank's excuse saying they do most DPS, its because everyone else is either running for their lives or is dead. As a tank if I let my group die, I can do 100% DPS as well!
You should see how players react to a real tank.

A win-win would be if players would not fake tank. Leaving those who waited out their queue with a real tank. Allowing players to actually learn their roles as well.

PS: I don't really mind being placed into half-finished runs, especially not now with the dremora skull at the end. When I run pledges I simply finish the incomplete run in a few minutes, and re-queue afterwards.