Fake Tanking

svendf

Kurat wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Don't pug if you can't stand fake roles or bad players. This is a game and its meant to be played as you want. And that's exactly what I'm doing. I use the builds I want and queue for the role I want. If my build, skill level or play style doesn't meet your standards then play with the people you know. I don't get these threads, people get so worked up if random pugs dont perform as world class as some YouTube groups.
It took me 7 attempts with different groups to get vFV pledge done yesterday. And not because we had any fake roles, but because people rage quit so easily over everything. Does everyone expect trifecta achievements with pugs lmao?

Nah we just expect everyone to queue for what they are instead of being selfish snowflakes who feel entitled to jump the queue to get in faster as a "healer" or "tank."

Why not form group yourself?
It's not against ToS to play as you want.

You are asking a player,, who do follow the assigned 2dd 1tank and 1healer recommandation, to form his/her own group, while you can troll around as you wish - got alot of nerves, don´t you ?

Xebov

Kurat wrote: »

Don't pug if you can't stand fake roles or bad players. This is a game and its meant to be played as you want. And that's exactly what I'm doing. I use the builds I want and queue for the role I want. If my build, skill level or play style doesn't meet your standards then play with the people you know. I don't get these threads, people get so worked up if random pugs dont perform as world class as some YouTube groups.
It took me 7 attempts with different groups to get vFV pledge done yesterday. And not because we had any fake roles, but because people rage quit so easily over everything. Does everyone expect trifecta achievements with pugs lmao?

You can play as you want, but you have to life with getting kicked or ppl dropping out of your group.

I had my fair share of "i play like i want" players and they are the most selfish ppl i ever encountered in games. Dont want to learn or follow mechs. Expect the rest of the group to compensate for their lack of damage and usually expect a free carry so they can continue with whatever playstyle they have.

Dunning_Kruger

Xebov wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Don't pug if you can't stand fake roles or bad players. This is a game and its meant to be played as you want. And that's exactly what I'm doing. I use the builds I want and queue for the role I want. If my build, skill level or play style doesn't meet your standards then play with the people you know. I don't get these threads, people get so worked up if random pugs dont perform as world class as some YouTube groups.
It took me 7 attempts with different groups to get vFV pledge done yesterday. And not because we had any fake roles, but because people rage quit so easily over everything. Does everyone expect trifecta achievements with pugs lmao?

You can play as you want, but you have to life with getting kicked or ppl dropping out of your group.

I had my fair share of "i play like i want" players and they are the most selfish ppl i ever encountered in games. Dont want to learn or follow mechs. Expect the rest of the group to compensate for their lack of damage and usually expect a free carry so they can continue with whatever playstyle they have.

Yeah the play as you want Play style results in a lot of sword and board dps or bow snipers doing 10k Dps; aka fake Dps.

Sailor_Palutena

If I get into a dg and the healer or the tank becomes werewolf I leave without saying a word. I don't even waste time. Since I usually play either as a healer or as a tank, I don't wait much until I get called again.

Calm_Fury

As others have pointed out, that seems to be some misconception on what a fake tank is by some people.

If you have your PvP character or DPS and: (i) slot a taunt; (ii) taunt the boss, you are NOT a fake tank. You might not be the greatest tank, but at least you are allowing the other 2 DPS and the healer to actually heal and DPS.

Nobody is here saying that tanks in the Group Finder should be the best ever.

The only think a tank needs to do is taunt and hold aggro, then it is fulfilling the basics of the role. It can be bad, but it won't be fake.

What is annoying is when fake tanks don't even bother with that. And then what happens is that someone else ends up tanking when they don't want to. Which is the whole problem with fake tanking. Because one person feels entitled to get a faster queue, they are negating the other groupmate's choice of role.

It is selfish. Your right to "skip the queue" does not win over other player's right to play they role they want by following the rules of the Group Finder.

SidraWillowsky

Eormenric wrote: »

Milli_Rabbit wrote: »

KaGaOri wrote: »

Can you still kick the fake tank if they are the one with the crown? Got stuck with terrible one in normal White Gold Tower couple days back and assumed there's no getting rid of them since they are the group leader.

This "tank" died seconds into any boss fight (and again seconds after somebody resing them) + couple times to the mobs, wouldn't wait for questers, started bosses before mechanics could be explaind or all ppl even present in the boss area, causing wipe on each one of them due to some people being new to WGT and no time left to explain + once by 2 ppl being locked out of the fight. Have considered quitting, but ultimately felt sorry for person doing quest and stayed so they could complete it (+ I've been the one who foolishly passed the crown to tank at the start, making them unkickable - or maybe not?).

Yes! You can kick the group lead. The issue is you are at the mercy of the rest of the group. Sometimes people just don't care if the tank is a problem. Sometimes they don't know how to accept the kick. Other times they don't even notice. People usually don't care until you start wiping as a group.

THIS... THIS! You can complain about fake tanks all the live long day and I understand. When some hotshot is running around with a bow and pulling everything and dodge rolling into the next and next group because they want to go fast, it's pretty darn annoying. But if your group is surviving just fine amidst the chaos (and chaos is subjective here) and the mobs are actually dying a lot faster than usual, then you are fine. I repeat: If everything is going smoothly regardless, YOU ARE FINE. Sincerely, a Dual Wield tank. P.S. Did you know Flying Blade works with Tormentor set? Flash taunts!

No.

It's the fact that they can't be arsed to use the DPS queue like the vast majority of DPS.

Too impatient to wait in the DPS queue? Make an actual tank.

I'd say that at this point, over half of the pug tanks I encounter are fake tanks. And it's obnoxious because I waited in the DPS queue while these jackholes have for whatever reason decided that they're worthy of fake tanking. The cherry on top is that I'm still pulling 45-55% of group DPS even with the 3rd DPS.

Kurat

People who hate fake tanks, do you realize that if ppl didn't queue as fake tanks your queue would be even longer. I would rather take fake tank and get the dungeon done than wait in queue for extra 30min. Theres no need for real tank in norm or non dlc vets. And I've never seen fake tank in vet dlcs, just some bad ones.

Iselin

Kurat wrote: »

People who hate fake tanks, do you realize that if ppl didn't queue as fake tanks your queue would be even longer. I would rather take fake tank and get the dungeon done than wait in queue for extra 30min. Theres no need for real tank in norm or non dlc vets. And I've never seen fake tank in vet dlcs, just some bad ones.

Excuse #23. The issue is queue jumpers. Roles in ESO work on the honor system and some don't have any because they're special.

Kurat

Iselin wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

People who hate fake tanks, do you realize that if ppl didn't queue as fake tanks your queue would be even longer. I would rather take fake tank and get the dungeon done than wait in queue for extra 30min. Theres no need for real tank in norm or non dlc vets. And I've never seen fake tank in vet dlcs, just some bad ones.

Excuse #23. The issue is queue jumpers. Roles in ESO work on the honor system and some don't have any because they're special.

Omg lmao. People don't jump the queue because they feel special. I queue as fake tank because it makes no sense to queue with real one for easy content and it saves EVERYONE time. Let me give you an example. Did vSC1 pledge yesterday and queued as fake tank. Did 50% of dps and dungeon was done in less than 10 min. No one died no one complained. If I didn't queue as fake tank, the other 3 would have been still sitting in queue for another 20 min and their run would have also taken extra 10 min because of 2 dps and a REAL tank. So I saved everyone 30 min. How is this bad?
I dont get why ppl are so salty, no one stops you from queuing as fake tank also. You would do others a favor. Why gimp your group with real tank when they are not needed.

ForzaRammer

Calm_Fury wrote: »

idk wrote: »

.

svendf wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

A tank's job isn't easy. One dungeon you are the hero(most of the time), and everyone wants to keep queuing the next pledge with you. Yet the next dungeon you are called names.

All this makes me think about who is in charge in a dungeon? ... I thought everyone was supposed to follow the tank? But my guess is players aren't used to this, as they expect every tank to be a fake tank now. Instead of a real tank who controls the group, and the situations surrounding them. So for alot of things, fake tanks are the blame.

If a tank stops moving, or does not pull something, they have a reason for it! Atleast I do.

Maybe a way to stop fake tanks is having to have atleast 5 pieces of heavy armor equipped, have the entire heavy armor skillline filled out(besides ultimate), have atleast 25k resistances, have atleast one taunt equipped, and have atleast 30k hp to be able to queue as a tank role at level 50. And ofcourse being unable to change gear/skills when inside a dungeon. Not below level 50 as players will still be leveling/learning/training, so they won't be able to meet those requirements yet. But at level 50, that is the very least players should be expecting from a tank.

That is probably the WORST idea I have ever heard.

1. Good tanks always carry at least a few alternate sets they need to change to at any given time...the same applies to skills.
2. You do NOT need 25k resistances to successfully tank a dungeon(with maybe a couple exceptions).
3. You do not NEED heavy armor to tank. I have a medium armor tank who does just fine(on that one I use Armor Master...haven't updated it in years or I might use fortified brass instead)
4. You do not NEED 30k health to tank...again, for the most part, there are a couple fights you simply aren't going to easily survive with less

So not a single idea of yours does ANYTHING other than pigeonholing all tanks into one specific type of build. Thats a resounding NO! The solution has been there since they implemented group finder...vote to kick. If a tank isn't doing their job...vote to kick, if they are, everything is good. If you have trouble finding a replacement....make some friends with some tanks...they will be happy to help you out if you aren't toxic.

It´s about getting rid of fake tanking. Do you mind ? The gentleman you reply to have a point. Are you able to let´´s say get 38K health and 30k resistanse on medium, light armor that´s ok, why not I´m all for it - have not tried it and se if it´s possible.

Now! How do we get rid of fake tanking ? Any suggestions ?

Considering their requirements are to implement what is needed for HM trial tanking it is very much extreme. Considering most fake tanks are in normal mode dungeons the idea is even that much more extreme.

If we are going to do this we might as well solve the fake DPS issue, which is just as bad, and require good trial level dps to join the queue? Maybe 40k dps for vet dungeons? Both DPS required to pull 50k to enable HM on the final boss. I think we should go easier on normal dungeons and only require 30k DPS.

Maybe it is a good idea to set such stringent standards after all.

The reality is there is not a good way to get rid of fake tanks. The first thing is vote kicking the fake tanks consistently. The reason they are as prevalent as they are is players are accepting of them because they got a queue. I say, be the solution yourself, kick the tank, have a backup setup for tanking (I stam tanked a vet HM on a Magicka DPS by changing gear and skills, not CP), and queue for a replacement DPS. As noted earlier I know players who have tanked final bosses on HM as DPS with a taunt. It really is that simple.

Oh, and also correct the situation that is the reason most decent tanks will not queue solo for a dungeon.

I don't think any of those hard requirements would work with ESO.

The solution to fake tank is to make the penalty bigger than the risk. Right now, fake tanks have 0 consequences.

What I wanted to see was a "special" Vote to Kick function, something like "Vote for Fake Role". If a person gets kicked repeatedly for that in a set period of time, they would be unable to use Group Finder for some time, just like the social ban.

Obviously this couldn't happen right away as to not be abused, but fake tanks do that all the time. I bet they would be kicked multiple times in a short amout of time for that reason. Then they would be unable to use GF for increasing periods of times.

That is really the only way I see this being solved in ESO since we don't really have special classes for tanking to set as hard requirements.

Hard req on dps will def make the que better, at least it will significantly shorten the dps que time. So there will be less incentive for fake tank (because they save less time thus less gain).

Ofc whatever you suggest can be added on top. This way bypassing que entry dps check through fake tank will be punished extra hard.

LashanW

Kurat wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

People who hate fake tanks, do you realize that if ppl didn't queue as fake tanks your queue would be even longer. I would rather take fake tank and get the dungeon done than wait in queue for extra 30min. Theres no need for real tank in norm or non dlc vets. And I've never seen fake tank in vet dlcs, just some bad ones.

Excuse #23. The issue is queue jumpers. Roles in ESO work on the honor system and some don't have any because they're special.

Omg lmao. People don't jump the queue because they feel special. I queue as fake tank because it makes no sense to queue with real one for easy content and it saves EVERYONE time. Let me give you an example. Did vSC1 pledge yesterday and queued as fake tank. Did 50% of dps and dungeon was done in less than 10 min. No one died no one complained. If I didn't queue as fake tank, the other 3 would have been still sitting in queue for another 20 min and their run would have also taken extra 10 min because of 2 dps and a REAL tank. So I saved everyone 30 min. How is this bad?
I dont get why ppl are so salty, no one stops you from queuing as fake tank also. You would do others a favor. Why gimp your group with real tank when they are not needed.

Did you use a taunt?

FrancisCrawford

If a fake or incompetent tank isn't upsetting enough to groupmates to get kicked, how bad is it that they queued as a tank in the first place?

And the same goes for other roles, of course.

Calm_Fury

Kurat wrote: »

People who hate fake tanks, do you realize that if ppl didn't queue as fake tanks your queue would be even longer. I would rather take fake tank and get the dungeon done than wait in queue for extra 30min. Theres no need for real tank in norm or non dlc vets. And I've never seen fake tank in vet dlcs, just some bad ones.

Of course, because it is always a 100% complete rate, right?

It never happens that the actual DPS that respect the system wait 30-40 minutes in queue and then can't complete the dungeon because it requires a tank and someone faked it, right?

I bet you the vast majority of the DPS that use the system correctly would prefer waiting a few more minutes to get a proper tank then to roll the dice with a fake one to get in a few minutes faster.

svendf

Kurat wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

People who hate fake tanks, do you realize that if ppl didn't queue as fake tanks your queue would be even longer. I would rather take fake tank and get the dungeon done than wait in queue for extra 30min. Theres no need for real tank in norm or non dlc vets. And I've never seen fake tank in vet dlcs, just some bad ones.

Excuse #23. The issue is queue jumpers. Roles in ESO work on the honor system and some don't have any because they're special.

Omg lmao. People don't jump the queue because they feel special. I queue as fake tank because it makes no sense to queue with real one for easy content and it saves EVERYONE time. Let me give you an example. Did vSC1 pledge yesterday and queued as fake tank. Did 50% of dps and dungeon was done in less than 10 min. No one died no one complained. If I didn't queue as fake tank, the other 3 would have been still sitting in queue for another 20 min and their run would have also taken extra 10 min because of 2 dps and a REAL tank. So I saved everyone 30 min. How is this bad?
I dont get why ppl are so salty, no one stops you from queuing as fake tank also. You would do others a favor. Why gimp your group with real tank when they are not needed.

Your argument are allway´s the same - "time", "easy content". Seems you don´t have time playing ESO. Who gives you the right to put forward, what other player´s "think" or "believe".

It seems it´s not only tanks, who are your problem,even healers. Support roles isn´t something you are in favor of and you be deliverer that message in a veyr arrogant and provocative way.

A dps playing with a tank and healer will only make them better player´s in every level of group content out there in ESO, because the role as dps becomes more clear to them as new player´s. Carrie new player´s through low level to high level content don´t help with anything. First of all they don´t learn about mechanics, they don´t se mechanics needed to continue to eveolve and progress as a player.

You are very few,, but at the end of the day you create alot of havoc for new player´s and player´s, who wanna progress in a normal manner and learn.

The argument that you are helping out the que is not corect simply because longer ques haappen during events often, nothing you are changing there. The possitive about all this is outside events I do se more and more tanks and healers in content, which is what ESO need, because working in a group, with a tank and healer will give you an insight of what a dps role is about - handling different situations.

One thing that will solve the problem is a health pool check, when queing as a tank as explaiined in the video above - someething ZOS should implement as soon as possible.

SgtNuttzmeg

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

To answer your question: yes they are not needed for a lot of the content in this game. That is the core issue here, if you needed a tank and a healer to beat a normal dungeon you wouldn't get fake tanks because it simply wouldn't work. People wouldn't clear the content.

That's a bit misleading. You don't need a tank or healer ONLY if you're experienced and skilled enough to survive or solo and faceroll content. I guarantee you, this is not the majority of the player base. And I think people who are the exception constantly saying tanks and heals aren't needed add to the problem of fake tanks and heals bc DPS who can't do without tank and heals think they can, so they queue as fake tank and get dead or kite everything everywhere or mobs hitting everyone, causing the run to take longer than necessary.

You don't need alot of experience to do this. You need one survivability skill on your bar and to read the tooltip/know how it works.

But that requirement isn't just for someone queueing as a tank, it's for every person in the tankless group. You should assume other people in the group finder don't meet that requirement.

Not at all. If you die from random trash during a random normal that is not because of a tank, that is because your build isn't as good as it should be. That's not gonna change with the addition of a tank. Like I said before, I have done this a lot before and I don't see people dying. Also if these mobs are dying within seconds of being pulled they aren't doing damage to players.

SgtNuttzmeg

Jeremy wrote: »

The role of a tank is, and I quote:

Absorbs damage from enemies and prevents allies from being attacked.

That is from ESO the game itself, so I think they have the final word on this. So if you queue up as a role that does not focus on doing that then you are a fake tank.

Singing up for a dungeon in some uber solo build and letting your teammates die while you solo Vet Hard Modes does not make you a tank. People need to learn the group finder is built around specific roles and working together as a team. If players want to implement different strategies based on independent solo builds then they should form their own groups.

Another solution would be for the developers to add another feature to the group finder that players can sign up for with no designated roles. I'm in favor of adding such an option. Because posters are not wrong when they say much of the content does not require specific roles to complete. But that is no excuse to lie about performing a role you really have no intention of doing.

But you can do this a DPS. That's the problem. The problem isn't people choosing to do this but rather that a Light Armor Wearing MagicDPS can do this with ease.

Protossyder

Imagine being angry about getting carried through a random normal... If you really believe the queue waiting time is the only reason to fake tank/heal, you're truly lost. I just don't want to waste 30 mins in a dungeon that can be done in 5 and running with 3 - 4 DDs is way more efficient to maximize dps (atleast in normal dungeons).
Most of the times none of the randoms know what they are doing and that's fine. I only needed them to enter the random normal anyways.
When my char is in a state where he needs to be carried (new char leveling skill lines for example) I queue together with a full level mate and we get the same result.
Never had any problems.. Fake tanking/healing can be done the right way imo and everybody wins

svendf

Protossyder wrote: »

Imagine being angry about getting carried through a random normal... If you really believe the queue waiting time is the only reason to fake tank/heal, you're truly lost. I just don't want to waste 30 mins in a dungeon that can be done in 5 and running with 3 - 4 DDs is way more efficient to maximize dps (atleast in normal dungeons).
Most of the times none of the randoms know what they are doing and that's fine. I only needed them to enter the random normal anyways.
When my char is in a state where he needs to be carried (new char leveling skill lines for example) I queue together with a full level mate and we get the same result.
Never had any problems.. Fake tanking/healing can be done the right way imo and everybody wins

Imagine one wanna learn the dungeon and it´s mechanics and a dd enter and blow most everything away, which does´nt haappen often anyyway - mostly they createn havoc.

greate your own group and run as you wish. Don´t force your fake tanking onto other´s

SgtNuttzmeg

Protossyder wrote: »

Imagine being angry about getting carried through a random normal... If you really believe the queue waiting time is the only reason to fake tank/heal, you're truly lost. I just don't want to waste 30 mins in a dungeon that can be done in 5 and running with 3 - 4 DDs is way more efficient to maximize dps (atleast in normal dungeons).
Most of the times none of the randoms know what they are doing and that's fine. I only needed them to enter the random normal anyways.
When my char is in a state where he needs to be carried (new char leveling skill lines for example) I queue together with a full level mate and we get the same result.
Never had any problems.. Fake tanking/healing can be done the right way imo and everybody wins

Exactly. It's funny out of all the dungeons I can remember the one that sticks with me the most is the first dungeon I ever puged. It was Forgotten Ghroto 1. We had some Max Level Templar queue as healer. He never had to heal us once and we completed it at a pace at the time that I didn't think was possible.

You know it's funny when you start doing things like vMA and especially back in the day when it was more challenging you start to see how much this game revolves around damage. I am not saying this to disparage tanks or Healers but so much of a raids set up is trying to increase damage. This is because nothing beats a difficult mechanic like burning through it. And nothing is more frustrating then playing a proper tank and watching DPS that don't know what a rotation is stand there spamming LAs or some skill they shouldn't be spamming. And that is okay those people should be allowed to play the game as they want. THey use those skills or fight in that way for a reason.

But in the end Veteran players want to get in and out of dungeons. Veteran Dungeons are inconsistent, don't have that great of rewards and take too long. And you can't impose rules as to how to queue for a tank because of the skill disparity amongst players. The only way I can see this being addressed is in the mechanics themselves but I doubt it is realistic that these would ever change.

SgtNuttzmeg

svendf wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Imagine being angry about getting carried through a random normal... If you really believe the queue waiting time is the only reason to fake tank/heal, you're truly lost. I just don't want to waste 30 mins in a dungeon that can be done in 5 and running with 3 - 4 DDs is way more efficient to maximize dps (atleast in normal dungeons).
Most of the times none of the randoms know what they are doing and that's fine. I only needed them to enter the random normal anyways.
When my char is in a state where he needs to be carried (new char leveling skill lines for example) I queue together with a full level mate and we get the same result.
Never had any problems.. Fake tanking/healing can be done the right way imo and everybody wins

Imagine one wanna learn the dungeon and it´s mechanics and a dd enter and blow most everything away, which does´nt haappen often anyyway - mostly they createn havoc.

greate your own group and run as you wish. Don´t force your fake tanking onto other´s

Running a random normal doesn't teach you anything. The bar is so low on mechanics you can scrap by on pretty much anything. Thats the flaw. You don't need a taunt, you don't need heavy armor, you don't need healing. If you did, fake tanking wouldn't happen.

Protossyder

svendf wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Imagine being angry about getting carried through a random normal... If you really believe the queue waiting time is the only reason to fake tank/heal, you're truly lost. I just don't want to waste 30 mins in a dungeon that can be done in 5 and running with 3 - 4 DDs is way more efficient to maximize dps (atleast in normal dungeons).
Most of the times none of the randoms know what they are doing and that's fine. I only needed them to enter the random normal anyways.
When my char is in a state where he needs to be carried (new char leveling skill lines for example) I queue together with a full level mate and we get the same result.
Never had any problems.. Fake tanking/healing can be done the right way imo and everybody wins

Imagine one wanna learn the dungeon and it´s mechanics and a dd enter and blow most everything away, which does´nt haappen often anyyway - mostly they createn havoc.

greate your own group and run as you wish. Don´t force your fake tanking onto other´s

Don't worry, you are free to leave the group if you wish to do so. Also, most of the times the randoms write something into the group chat, they want to know how we do so much dps and how they can improve their own. And we gladly take a minute of our time and give them a few tips and answer their questions.

It's funny how most people commenting here are trying to decrease toxicity by leaving the group/kicking from group and putting people on the ignore list (basically cancel any communication). You want to learn mechanics? Just ask and we'll explain it to you.

svendf

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

If a fake or incompetent tank isn't upsetting enough to groupmates to get kicked, how bad is it that they queued as a tank in the first place?

And the same goes for other roles, of course.

A bad tank or incompetent one - whatever "you" wanna call it isn´t the same as aa fake tank, who really don´t care about anything other than themself.

A real tank wanna learn the role same way as a dd or healer. They can all be on different levels.

With a healt pool check it will stop

svendf

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Imagine being angry about getting carried through a random normal... If you really believe the queue waiting time is the only reason to fake tank/heal, you're truly lost. I just don't want to waste 30 mins in a dungeon that can be done in 5 and running with 3 - 4 DDs is way more efficient to maximize dps (atleast in normal dungeons).
Most of the times none of the randoms know what they are doing and that's fine. I only needed them to enter the random normal anyways.
When my char is in a state where he needs to be carried (new char leveling skill lines for example) I queue together with a full level mate and we get the same result.
Never had any problems.. Fake tanking/healing can be done the right way imo and everybody wins

Imagine one wanna learn the dungeon and it´s mechanics and a dd enter and blow most everything away, which does´nt haappen often anyyway - mostly they createn havoc.

greate your own group and run as you wish. Don´t force your fake tanking onto other´s

Running a random normal doesn't teach you anything. The bar is so low on mechanics you can scrap by on pretty much anything. Thats the flaw. You don't need a taunt, you don't need heavy armor, you don't need healing. If you did, fake tanking wouldn't happen.

Don´t speak for other´s. I can understand if it didn´t teach you anything as we are not equal in regarding to learning. Don´t try the one wwith vet and norm are not the same mechanic vise. No they are not, with some minor exceptions, where they are hitting harder.
Of cause you are wrong when not able to learn anythin from normal dungeons. Itt´s often said that start with norm before you enter vet and I agreed.

Some are forgetting where they are comming frrom. That´s ok I certainly can forget things not seems important to me anymore - that´s where backtrackinng are gettiing even more important

OmniDo

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

Running a random normal doesn't teach you anything. The bar is so low on mechanics you can scrap by on pretty much anything. Thats the flaw. You don't need a taunt, you don't need heavy armor, you don't need healing. If you did, fake tanking wouldn't happen.

#Truth.
Preach on, brotha/sista/whateva.

noob in denial

No, fake roles cannot stop and will never stop. It's almost never people's fault, this happens because that's how the game and it's incentives work. Same people who queue for fakes roles now would respect roles in other games like wow because there it wouldn't work ( or atleast many years ago they did not, no ideea how it is now ).

People just follow the path of least resistance if this is what works for them, then this is what they are going to do. I also queue as fake healer healing just with matriarch. If i think the random dungeon i jsut joined is harder than i can heal with my matriarch then i just leave.

sarahthes

You only need a real tank in vet dlc content, and for some of them only for the HM. But there's a caveat on that - the group needs to be good, and know how to play. If the rest of the group is weaker or doesn't know the content well, then a tank is safer.

For normals, even dlc, you do not need a tank. The last time I 4xdps normal dlc pledges the longest boss fight took 11 seconds. I think I had to dodge roll once.

josiahva

So I faked DPSed again yesterday in vDCII. I queued as a tank and again ran Leeching/Bahraha's Curse/Zaan and slotted some damage skills, largely AOE(great dungeon for that). We ran through the dungeon, and as usual, DPS was fairly low(group DPS averaging around 40-45k) I was consistently dealing some 25% of the damage(up to as much as 40% for the mobs). After the run, one of the DPS(magicka) was insisting I was hurting his DPS by not wearing Lord Warden. What? No one died the entire run, we finished easily enough...but I was hurting his DPS because he didn't get extra resistances in a base game dungeon? Don't get me wrong, I love Warden and its my default for DLC dungeons where I have magicka DPS in the group....but there is no way it can be construed as adding damage, unless you make the shaky argument that DPS can use it to stand in the stupid while they parse....but even then the healer should be able to heal them through that in a base game dungeon. The really surprising thing about this is that he had over 1600CP...of all people who should know better...he refused to answer when I asked him how running Lord Warden would increase his DPS. I can only conclude that DPS really do not like it when tanks do some fake DPS...but honestly I don't care, I will no longer run pure tanking sets in base game dungeons....as a matter of fact, I swapped to that setup in vLoM last night for that big open fight with the hoarvers and the plants...seemed to help there too(though DPSing while tanking...even mild DPSing is very resource intensive and negatively affects survivability in DLC dungeons.

As a tank, there are many sets I can run to boost group DPS of course....but they only work on a percentage scale, so if the DPS is low...its better to fake DPS it and add a flat 15k single target.

svendf

OmniDo wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

Running a random normal doesn't teach you anything. The bar is so low on mechanics you can scrap by on pretty much anything. Thats the flaw. You don't need a taunt, you don't need heavy armor, you don't need healing. If you did, fake tanking wouldn't happen.

#Truth.
Preach on, brotha/sista/whateva.

speaking only for myself. Not trying to convince you about anyything, who belong to that camp. It´s about putting the word out and inform about the havoc it creates.

I have seen more fakes going down because of low health pool and bad gear than real tanks.

You are alway´s welcome to feel cool and laughing about problems it createt, that´s your privilege

Sarannah

Protossyder wrote: »

I only needed them to enter the random normal anyways.

Wow... just WOW!

josiahva wrote: »

So I faked DPSed again yesterday in vDCII. I queued as a tank and again ran Leeching/Bahraha's Curse/Zaan and slotted some damage skills, largely AOE(great dungeon for that). We ran through the dungeon, and as usual, DPS was fairly low(group DPS averaging around 40-45k) I was consistently dealing some 25% of the damage(up to as much as 40% for the mobs). After the run, one of the DPS(magicka) was insisting I was hurting his DPS by not wearing Lord Warden. What? No one died the entire run, we finished easily enough...but I was hurting his DPS because he didn't get extra resistances in a base game dungeon? Don't get me wrong, I love Warden and its my default for DLC dungeons where I have magicka DPS in the group....but there is no way it can be construed as adding damage, unless you make the shaky argument that DPS can use it to stand in the stupid while they parse....but even then the healer should be able to heal them through that in a base game dungeon. The really surprising thing about this is that he had over 1600CP...of all people who should know better...he refused to answer when I asked him how running Lord Warden would increase his DPS. I can only conclude that DPS really do not like it when tanks do some fake DPS...but honestly I don't care, I will no longer run pure tanking sets in base game dungeons....as a matter of fact, I swapped to that setup in vLoM last night for that big open fight with the hoarvers and the plants...seemed to help there too(though DPSing while tanking...even mild DPSing is very resource intensive and negatively affects survivability in DLC dungeons.

As a tank, there are many sets I can run to boost group DPS of course....but they only work on a percentage scale, so if the DPS is low...its better to fake DPS it and add a flat 15k single target.

If a DPS cares about his resistances, you f- up majorly. As he apparently had aggro most of the time. And still you brag about doing some damage. And ofcourse he didn't answer. If a tank is too stupid to know when he doesn't have aggro, he is not worth talking to. And apparently it happened enough times for him to complain about it!

Globally spoken.... fake roles is straight up abuse of other players, and they get rewarded for it. Sickening. Especially when you read some of the defenses and justifications in this thread from players queueing as fake roles. Ban them, all of them! As all the experience they got from it was unrightfully achieved.

Please ZOS place some high tanking restrictions in the groupfinder ASAP! (only achievable by tanks)

SgtNuttzmeg

svendf wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

If a fake or incompetent tank isn't upsetting enough to groupmates to get kicked, how bad is it that they queued as a tank in the first place?

And the same goes for other roles, of course.

A bad tank or incompetent one - whatever "you" wanna call it isn´t the same as aa fake tank, who really don´t care about anything other than themself.

A real tank wanna learn the role same way as a dd or healer. They can all be on different levels.

With a healt pool check it will stop

Not at all, do you know how easy it is to stack max health in this game? Also what's stopping a dd from popping bonerlord ult and queuing up, and unslotting it.

josiahva wrote: »

So I faked DPSed again yesterday in vDCII. I queued as a tank and again ran Leeching/Bahraha's Curse/Zaan and slotted some damage skills, largely AOE(great dungeon for that). We ran through the dungeon, and as usual, DPS was fairly low(group DPS averaging around 40-45k) I was consistently dealing some 25% of the damage(up to as much as 40% for the mobs). After the run, one of the DPS(magicka) was insisting I was hurting his DPS by not wearing Lord Warden. What? No one died the entire run, we finished easily enough...but I was hurting his DPS because he didn't get extra resistances in a base game dungeon? Don't get me wrong, I love Warden and its my default for DLC dungeons where I have magicka DPS in the group....but there is no way it can be construed as adding damage, unless you make the shaky argument that DPS can use it to stand in the stupid while they parse....but even then the healer should be able to heal them through that in a base game dungeon. The really surprising thing about this is that he had over 1600CP...of all people who should know better...he refused to answer when I asked him how running Lord Warden would increase his DPS. I can only conclude that DPS really do not like it when tanks do some fake DPS...but honestly I don't care, I will no longer run pure tanking sets in base game dungeons....as a matter of fact, I swapped to that setup in vLoM last night for that big open fight with the hoarvers and the plants...seemed to help there too(though DPSing while tanking...even mild DPSing is very resource intensive and negatively affects survivability in DLC dungeons.

As a tank, there are many sets I can run to boost group DPS of course....but they only work on a percentage scale, so if the DPS is low...its better to fake DPS it and add a flat 15k single target.

Exactly it's two folds the threshold of DPS produced by unoptimized set ups is really low and the threshold of what you need in order to tank is really low. If you addressed that and incentivized veteran players that do this to queue for veteran content you wouldn't run into this issue.

Not only that but it isn't really an issue. In the end of the day, as long as nobody died and the content is completed who cares what abilities people run. Realistically forcing people to play the game a particular way in order to queue as a tank undermines the core philosophy ZOS has which is play the game how you want to play it. If you want to play a NB tank that only uses Frost Staff Heavy Attacks to taunt. That is okay. But if I want to queue on my magblade dps roast everything in seconds it should be just as okay.

I'd also like to clarify. I don't like the fact that you can nessicarily fake tank content. I don't like that you can fake heal content. I want content that requires all the roles. But imposing requirements on tanks, will only hurt the newer/casual tanks that don't know what they are doing. And this is coming from somebody that plays with a wide mixture of players. I play with two guilds. One is an End Game PVP guild and the other is fairly casual rp guild. I have seen people create tanks with less than 25k Health, I have seen people create tanks that had almost 80k health but would run out of stamina at a drop of a hate and die because they couldn't heal or block.

The problem comes down to we have two streams of players: casuals and veterans. We also have two streams of dungeons, we need those dungeons to match up. There needs to be a reason for veteran players to primarily run vet content. And we used to. Back before Jewelry crafiting you needed to complete vet dungeons to get purple rings, before trait changing you needed to run vet dungeons multiple times to get the right trait on your monster helm, and you constantly needed more keys from pledges. The game has shifted away from a need to run veteran dungeons and therefore people are no longer running them over normals.