Fake Tanking

Xebov · October 2020

Kurat wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

People who hate fake tanks, do you realize that if ppl didn't queue as fake tanks your queue would be even longer. I would rather take fake tank and get the dungeon done than wait in queue for extra 30min. Theres no need for real tank in norm or non dlc vets. And I've never seen fake tank in vet dlcs, just some bad ones.

Excuse #23. The issue is queue jumpers. Roles in ESO work on the honor system and some don't have any because they're special.

Omg lmao. People don't jump the queue because they feel special. I queue as fake tank because it makes no sense to queue with real one for easy content and it saves EVERYONE time. Let me give you an example. Did vSC1 pledge yesterday and queued as fake tank. Did 50% of dps and dungeon was done in less than 10 min. No one died no one complained. If I didn't queue as fake tank, the other 3 would have been still sitting in queue for another 20 min and their run would have also taken extra 10 min because of 2 dps and a REAL tank. So I saved everyone 30 min. How is this bad?
I dont get why ppl are so salty, no one stops you from queuing as fake tank also. You would do others a favor. Why gimp your group with real tank when they are not needed.

You queue up as a fake tank because the queue is faster for you. Everything else is just an excuse. The point that a real tank is not needed in some dungeons is just an effect you need for this to work. You are also lucky that you deal some decent damage. As a tank the most fake healers i get deal so low damage that their exsistance is a bad joke.

Sarannah · October 2020

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

The problem comes down to we have two streams of players: casuals and veterans.

Correction: it comes down to players with moral standards, and players without moral standards. And those with moral standards should never be worse off.

Protossyder · October 2020

@Sarannah Get over yourself. It's not my fault that you NEED to have 4 players for a random normal. If there was an option to solo/duo queue and run a random normal, I would use it.
Also, I've run every dungeon so many times that I lost count a long time ago. To me and many other players it's not more than overland content difficulty. Sorry, but I will not play only half my rotation to slow down for new players.
Imagine a groupfinder, where new players would be matched with new players only... Would that help them improve or rather frustrate them further?
And what about us veteran players? Should we get punished for having so much time invested into this game?
Let me get this straight, fake tanking/healing only sucks if the player doing it is inexperienced. If you do it to just skip queueing time, you simply don't get it

SgtNuttzmeg · October 2020

Sarannah wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

The problem comes down to we have two streams of players: casuals and veterans.

Correction: it comes down to players with moral standards, and players without moral standards. And those with moral standards should never be worse off.

This isn't an ethics issue. Why are you treating it like this? It's just a game, people die all the time. If you die because your teammate screwed up that's part of the experience. If you die because your teammates aren't playing in away that compliments your playstyle that is part of it too.

Also how are players with moral standards worse off? If you want to force yourself through a proper queue or wait to queue with friends that is up to you. Pugging dungeons has always been a *** show. It will likely always be on some level. But that's okay. We are a diverse community with people at a variety of different skill levels. That's half the fun of this game but until you step back and you look at the why of why people are doing this you won't understand the root cause of this issue. You will merely be addressing a symptom and not the source.

When it comes down to it. Any sniff test like this will catch two kinds of players: DPS that didn't take the time to meet the requirements and new/casual players that don't read tool tips. How is this fair to the newer/casual players that will suddenly need to redo their builds in order to do what they already were doing? You will still get fake DPS. All they will do is stack a bunch of stats into health now, which really wouldn't take much for a stamina DPS. You will also get less and less tanks as they don't want to spend time waiting for groups to clear content with low DPS.

svendf · October 2020

Protossyder wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Imagine being angry about getting carried through a random normal... If you really believe the queue waiting time is the only reason to fake tank/heal, you're truly lost. I just don't want to waste 30 mins in a dungeon that can be done in 5 and running with 3 - 4 DDs is way more efficient to maximize dps (atleast in normal dungeons).
Most of the times none of the randoms know what they are doing and that's fine. I only needed them to enter the random normal anyways.
When my char is in a state where he needs to be carried (new char leveling skill lines for example) I queue together with a full level mate and we get the same result.
Never had any problems.. Fake tanking/healing can be done the right way imo and everybody wins

Imagine one wanna learn the dungeon and it´s mechanics and a dd enter and blow most everything away, which does´nt haappen often anyyway - mostly they createn havoc.

greate your own group and run as you wish. Don´t force your fake tanking onto other´s

Don't worry, you are free to leave the group if you wish to do so. Also, most of the times the randoms write something into the group chat, they want to know how we do so much dps and how they can improve their own. And we gladly take a minute of our time and give them a few tips and answer their questions.

It's funny how most people commenting here are trying to decrease toxicity by leaving the group/kicking from group and putting people on the ignore list (basically cancel any communication). You want to learn mechanics? Just ask and we'll explain it to you.

So are you. Differancce I play a role. I know it´s not eesy play as real tank.

Xologamer · October 2020

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

Xologamer wrote: »

Milli_Rabbit wrote: »

This practice needs to stop. If you are a DPS and you hate the queue wait times, find friends or become a real tank. It is not okay to queue as a tank when you are actually a DPS. Now, you might say, "But Milli, its just a normal". Yea, and you didn't bring a taunt nor can you survive for more than 1 second of a boss fight.

Let me make this clear. A DPS CAN tank. If you equip a taunt like Inner Rage or even Pierce Armor, you can tank if you are taunting the boss. You are doing the role of tank in that case. If you are surviving, you are doing the role well for a normal dungeon. You can also DPS, taunt, and survive. "What?! No way!" Yea way, man. Yea way.

So, before you queue up as a tank. Ask yourself: Do I have a taunt? And can I survive this? Because if you can't, your team will hate you and likely kick you.

do i have a taunt: yes, do i use it : no, can i survive it : yes, can i deal dmg; yes

Then you get a inexperienced group with newer players and blame them for why the dungeon is going downhill. If you're slotting a taunt and not even using it I doubt you're even doing good enough damage to justify yourself fake tanking.

If you're gonna fake tank you should: Taunt and stay alive. That's its. Yeah you're losing out on some buffs for the group, but if you're good your dps will make up for it.

The problems lies with the kind of people that dont do anything a tank is supposed to do. They expect a carry and that's just rude. They don't even think about what happens if their group is full of newer players. Like they're gonna be able to carry but half the time they cant.

Dont get me wrong, Normals almost anyone can carry, and some Vet Dungeons too, but we all know players can surprise us, weather it's bad mechanical skill or inexperience, some people need real supports in all content, and that's fine. Don't ruin other people's experiences.

If you're slotting a taunt and not even using it
no one said anything about slotting it i just said i have it (unlocked it for some other purposes but im not actually using it in dungoens)

and if im fake tanking / healing i m only doing it at dungoens which i could do solo too (and just group for the extra reward)
if someone is faketanking and cant carry the dungeon than this person is just wasting time of everyone

Xologamer · October 2020

svendf wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Imagine being angry about getting carried through a random normal... If you really believe the queue waiting time is the only reason to fake tank/heal, you're truly lost. I just don't want to waste 30 mins in a dungeon that can be done in 5 and running with 3 - 4 DDs is way more efficient to maximize dps (atleast in normal dungeons).
Most of the times none of the randoms know what they are doing and that's fine. I only needed them to enter the random normal anyways.
When my char is in a state where he needs to be carried (new char leveling skill lines for example) I queue together with a full level mate and we get the same result.
Never had any problems.. Fake tanking/healing can be done the right way imo and everybody wins

Imagine one wanna learn the dungeon and it´s mechanics and a dd enter and blow most everything away, which does´nt haappen often anyyway - mostly they createn havoc.

greate your own group and run as you wish. Don´t force your fake tanking onto other´s

Running a random normal doesn't teach you anything. The bar is so low on mechanics you can scrap by on pretty much anything. Thats the flaw. You don't need a taunt, you don't need heavy armor, you don't need healing. If you did, fake tanking wouldn't happen.

Don´t speak for other´s. I can understand if it didn´t teach you anything as we are not equal in regarding to learning. Don´t try the one wwith vet and norm are not the same mechanic vise. No they are not, with some minor exceptions, where they are hitting harder.
Of cause you are wrong when not able to learn anythin from normal dungeons. Itt´s often said that start with norm before you enter vet and I agreed.

Some are forgetting where they are comming frrom. That´s ok I certainly can forget things not seems important to me anymore - that´s where backtrackinng are gettiing even more important

in a 10second fight i can learn very much from a normal dungoen end boss xd would be to dodge once

Xologamer · October 2020

svendf wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Imagine being angry about getting carried through a random normal... If you really believe the queue waiting time is the only reason to fake tank/heal, you're truly lost. I just don't want to waste 30 mins in a dungeon that can be done in 5 and running with 3 - 4 DDs is way more efficient to maximize dps (atleast in normal dungeons).
Most of the times none of the randoms know what they are doing and that's fine. I only needed them to enter the random normal anyways.
When my char is in a state where he needs to be carried (new char leveling skill lines for example) I queue together with a full level mate and we get the same result.
Never had any problems.. Fake tanking/healing can be done the right way imo and everybody wins

Imagine one wanna learn the dungeon and it´s mechanics and a dd enter and blow most everything away, which does´nt haappen often anyyway - mostly they createn havoc.

greate your own group and run as you wish. Don´t force your fake tanking onto other´s

stop forcing me to force fake tanking on others i still can play like i want that was even the advertisting slogan of the game "play how you want"

Protossyder · October 2020

svendf wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Imagine being angry about getting carried through a random normal... If you really believe the queue waiting time is the only reason to fake tank/heal, you're truly lost. I just don't want to waste 30 mins in a dungeon that can be done in 5 and running with 3 - 4 DDs is way more efficient to maximize dps (atleast in normal dungeons).
Most of the times none of the randoms know what they are doing and that's fine. I only needed them to enter the random normal anyways.
When my char is in a state where he needs to be carried (new char leveling skill lines for example) I queue together with a full level mate and we get the same result.
Never had any problems.. Fake tanking/healing can be done the right way imo and everybody wins

Imagine one wanna learn the dungeon and it´s mechanics and a dd enter and blow most everything away, which does´nt haappen often anyyway - mostly they createn havoc.

greate your own group and run as you wish. Don´t force your fake tanking onto other´s

Don't worry, you are free to leave the group if you wish to do so. Also, most of the times the randoms write something into the group chat, they want to know how we do so much dps and how they can improve their own. And we gladly take a minute of our time and give them a few tips and answer their questions.

It's funny how most people commenting here are trying to decrease toxicity by leaving the group/kicking from group and putting people on the ignore list (basically cancel any communication). You want to learn mechanics? Just ask and we'll explain it to you.

So are you. Differancce I play a role. I know it´s not eesy play as real tank.

It is actually. I really like tanking, but DD is my main role. Prove me wrong, but players that started as DDs make better tanks in my opinion. Only a true DD knows what a DD needs

josiahva · October 2020

Sarannah wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

I only needed them to enter the random normal anyways.

Wow... just WOW!

josiahva wrote: »

So I faked DPSed again yesterday in vDCII. I queued as a tank and again ran Leeching/Bahraha's Curse/Zaan and slotted some damage skills, largely AOE(great dungeon for that). We ran through the dungeon, and as usual, DPS was fairly low(group DPS averaging around 40-45k) I was consistently dealing some 25% of the damage(up to as much as 40% for the mobs). After the run, one of the DPS(magicka) was insisting I was hurting his DPS by not wearing Lord Warden. What? No one died the entire run, we finished easily enough...but I was hurting his DPS because he didn't get extra resistances in a base game dungeon? Don't get me wrong, I love Warden and its my default for DLC dungeons where I have magicka DPS in the group....but there is no way it can be construed as adding damage, unless you make the shaky argument that DPS can use it to stand in the stupid while they parse....but even then the healer should be able to heal them through that in a base game dungeon. The really surprising thing about this is that he had over 1600CP...of all people who should know better...he refused to answer when I asked him how running Lord Warden would increase his DPS. I can only conclude that DPS really do not like it when tanks do some fake DPS...but honestly I don't care, I will no longer run pure tanking sets in base game dungeons....as a matter of fact, I swapped to that setup in vLoM last night for that big open fight with the hoarvers and the plants...seemed to help there too(though DPSing while tanking...even mild DPSing is very resource intensive and negatively affects survivability in DLC dungeons.

As a tank, there are many sets I can run to boost group DPS of course....but they only work on a percentage scale, so if the DPS is low...its better to fake DPS it and add a flat 15k single target.

If a DPS cares about his resistances, you f- up majorly. As he apparently had aggro most of the time. And still you brag about doing some damage. And ofcourse he didn't answer. If a tank is too stupid to know when he doesn't have aggro, he is not worth talking to. And apparently it happened enough times for him to complain about it!

Globally spoken.... fake roles is straight up abuse of other players, and they get rewarded for it. Sickening. Especially when you read some of the defenses and justifications in this thread from players queueing as fake roles. Ban them, all of them! As all the experience they got from it was unrightfully achieved.

Please ZOS place some high tanking restrictions in the groupfinder ASAP! (only achievable by tanks)

He didn't have aggro, I was taunting and cc-ing as usual. There was zero reason for him to complain about resistances. I just happened to be DPSing to a mild degree while tanking, that is all. The healer was mid300ish CP and had no problem healing, he was not taking any damage he wouldn't have been if I were wearing pure tank sets. Don't tell me I don't know how to tank this game, I did my job as the tank....the point of the post is that the attitude of certain DPS expecting the tank to be their buff-monkey makes it so no one in their right mind wants to tank, leaving a vacuum that is filled by fake tanks that DONT do their job as the tank.

Put another way...base game vet dungeons are excruciatingly boring as a tank after you run them hundreds of times each in that role, the only way to add any interest to them at all is to multi-role to some degree or another, and since multi-roleing as off-heals is overkill in base game dungeons....leaving off-DPS as the better choice for a variety of reasons. People have no problem with people "off-tanking"(tank/DPS hybrid) in trials...why in the world would they have a problem with it in base game vet dungeons as long as everything is still being controlled?

If I had gone into the dungeon and seen actual good DPS, I would certainly have switched to real tanking sets that scale by percentage since that would have increased group DPS by more than what I was doing on my own...but what I saw did not add up to more damage with that route.

And Saranah, FYI, I was running 35kHP, 20k magicka, 29k stamina, my resistances were 25k or so, I was taunting and CCing the mobs....how exactly did I mess up bad enough he started going on about resistances? Ads weren't chasing him, he was standing there parsing just fine. I was by all definitions except certain buffs, tanking, I just chose damage skills for my flex skills and sets that added direct damage for my sets....its actually far easier to aggro and control large mobs like Darkshade II has in a setup like that than it is as a pure tank...significant initial damage will grab aggro and give you time to taunt everything needed, while the cc allows the DPS to come in and mop up....in fact, you could even make the argument that mob fights are faster than the traditional setup with the way bloodthirsty scales off missing health, already giving a damage buff to the DPS at the start(though that is stretching it really). The playstyle is certainly dependent on initial aggro though...doesnt work very well when DPS run ahead and aggro everything.

Xologamer · October 2020

josiahva wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

I only needed them to enter the random normal anyways.

Wow... just WOW!

josiahva wrote: »

So I faked DPSed again yesterday in vDCII. I queued as a tank and again ran Leeching/Bahraha's Curse/Zaan and slotted some damage skills, largely AOE(great dungeon for that). We ran through the dungeon, and as usual, DPS was fairly low(group DPS averaging around 40-45k) I was consistently dealing some 25% of the damage(up to as much as 40% for the mobs). After the run, one of the DPS(magicka) was insisting I was hurting his DPS by not wearing Lord Warden. What? No one died the entire run, we finished easily enough...but I was hurting his DPS because he didn't get extra resistances in a base game dungeon? Don't get me wrong, I love Warden and its my default for DLC dungeons where I have magicka DPS in the group....but there is no way it can be construed as adding damage, unless you make the shaky argument that DPS can use it to stand in the stupid while they parse....but even then the healer should be able to heal them through that in a base game dungeon. The really surprising thing about this is that he had over 1600CP...of all people who should know better...he refused to answer when I asked him how running Lord Warden would increase his DPS. I can only conclude that DPS really do not like it when tanks do some fake DPS...but honestly I don't care, I will no longer run pure tanking sets in base game dungeons....as a matter of fact, I swapped to that setup in vLoM last night for that big open fight with the hoarvers and the plants...seemed to help there too(though DPSing while tanking...even mild DPSing is very resource intensive and negatively affects survivability in DLC dungeons.

As a tank, there are many sets I can run to boost group DPS of course....but they only work on a percentage scale, so if the DPS is low...its better to fake DPS it and add a flat 15k single target.

If a DPS cares about his resistances, you f- up majorly. As he apparently had aggro most of the time. And still you brag about doing some damage. And ofcourse he didn't answer. If a tank is too stupid to know when he doesn't have aggro, he is not worth talking to. And apparently it happened enough times for him to complain about it!

Globally spoken.... fake roles is straight up abuse of other players, and they get rewarded for it. Sickening. Especially when you read some of the defenses and justifications in this thread from players queueing as fake roles. Ban them, all of them! As all the experience they got from it was unrightfully achieved.

Please ZOS place some high tanking restrictions in the groupfinder ASAP! (only achievable by tanks)

He didn't have aggro, I was taunting and cc-ing as usual. There was zero reason for him to complain about resistances. I just happened to be DPSing to a mild degree while tanking, that is all. The healer was mid300ish CP and had no problem healing, he was not taking any damage he wouldn't have been if I were wearing pure tank sets. Don't tell me I don't know how to tank this game, I did my job as the tank....the point of the post is that the attitude of certain DPS expecting the tank to be their buff-monkey makes it so no one in their right mind wants to tank, leaving a vacuum that is filled by fake tanks that DONT do their job as the tank.

Put another way...base game vet dungeons are excruciatingly boring as a tank after you run them hundreds of times each in that role, the only way to add any interest to them at all is to multi-role to some degree or another, and since multi-roleing as off-heals is overkill in base game dungeons....leaving off-DPS as the better choice for a variety of reasons. People have no problem with people "off-tanking"(tank/DPS hybrid) in trials...why in the world would they have a problem with it in base game vet dungeons as long as everything is still being controlled?

If I had gone into the dungeon and seen actual good DPS, I would certainly have switched to real tanking sets that scale by percentage since that would have increased group DPS by more than what I was doing on my own...but what I saw did not add up to more damage with that route.

And Saranah, FYI, I was running 35kHP, 20k magicka, 29k stamina, my resistances were 25k or so, I was taunting and CCing the mobs....how exactly did I mess up bad enough he started going on about resistances? Ads weren't chasing him, he was standing there parsing just fine. I was by all definitions except certain buffs, tanking, I just chose damage skills for my flex skills and sets that added direct damage for my sets....its actually far easier to aggro and control large mobs like Darkshade II has in a setup like that than it is as a pure tank...significant initial damage will grab aggro and give you time to taunt everything needed, while the cc allows the DPS to come in and mop up....in fact, you could even make the argument that mob fights are faster than the traditional setup with the way bloodthirsty scales off missing health, already giving a damage buff to the DPS at the start(though that is stretching it really). The playstyle is certainly dependent on initial aggro though...doesnt work very well when DPS run ahead and aggro everything.

maybe staying alive and having agro is enought to be considert a good tank in other game in this game u need to buff the other players while having agro and staying alive to be considerd good - and thats easy explained why this is so - the enemys arnt that hard (without maybe 4-5 exeptions in the whole game) that u dont need sets like pleauge doctor or other "tank sets" so the tank should do his best in the sittuation where he doesnt need his set to support the group he could do this by either : doing dmg himself OR buffing the dmg of the group and the 2. way(buffing the group) is the more efficent way doing this

thats why tanks are considerd "buff monkeys"
btw same explanation from above counts for healers to

and btw a off tank is no tank-dps hybrid a off tank is a 2. tank which supports the main tank with taunting a 2. boss or some specific adds

Xologamer · October 2020

Sarannah wrote: »

Please ZOS place some high tanking restrictions in the groupfinder ASAP! (only achievable by tanks)

that wouldnt fix it the people (me included) would just use a speific setuop to get x stats and as soon as im in the dungon i would swap back to normal gear
and if u say now than lock the gear that it cant be changed - u cant do this to cause many good normal tanks change their gear for specific boss / add fights and there is no reason the restrict these player espacily cause we already have a low tank population

this "porblem" cant be fixed (atleast i never saw an idea which would actually help)

svendf · October 2020

Protossyder wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Imagine being angry about getting carried through a random normal... If you really believe the queue waiting time is the only reason to fake tank/heal, you're truly lost. I just don't want to waste 30 mins in a dungeon that can be done in 5 and running with 3 - 4 DDs is way more efficient to maximize dps (atleast in normal dungeons).
Most of the times none of the randoms know what they are doing and that's fine. I only needed them to enter the random normal anyways.
When my char is in a state where he needs to be carried (new char leveling skill lines for example) I queue together with a full level mate and we get the same result.
Never had any problems.. Fake tanking/healing can be done the right way imo and everybody wins

Imagine one wanna learn the dungeon and it´s mechanics and a dd enter and blow most everything away, which does´nt haappen often anyyway - mostly they createn havoc.

greate your own group and run as you wish. Don´t force your fake tanking onto other´s

Don't worry, you are free to leave the group if you wish to do so. Also, most of the times the randoms write something into the group chat, they want to know how we do so much dps and how they can improve their own. And we gladly take a minute of our time and give them a few tips and answer their questions.

It's funny how most people commenting here are trying to decrease toxicity by leaving the group/kicking from group and putting people on the ignore list (basically cancel any communication). You want to learn mechanics? Just ask and we'll explain it to you.

So are you. Differancce I play a role. I know it´s not eesy play as real tank.

It is actually. I really like tanking, but DD is my main role. Prove me wrong, but players that started as DDs make better tanks in my opinion. Only a true DD knows what a DD needs

From my own perspective only. Tanking is hardest. 2nd is healing and then we have DD´s. Yes I started out as a DD back when ESO came out on consol.

Tanks have to keep themself alive and controle everthig so dd´s and healer don´t get over run (add blocking and interpting). I will not get into prove anything, simply because this s not what the topic is about. What I will say though is, that non of my healers or tanks are a buff or debuff cow for anyone outside score runs - dds should stand on their own feed as my three dds do.

I got tired of the que time as a dd and started leveling three healers, how hard can it be ? Many good tanks and streamers out there, who are helping the ccommunity everday - so why fake ? Did same with tanks have a dk and a warden. You will be surprised how much you will learning from it.

Fake tanking have an negative impact, by own observations and general conversation and here on forums. I got into EH1 today on one of my healers with a fake tank and it got bad very fast and one dps went down.

Fake tanking do have an negativ impact on the community and should be stopped by a health pool check..

Kurat · October 2020

People who complain here, I'm sorry that I don't have the same moral standards as you but to me it's just a game. If you really need a real tank in base game dungeon then it's YOU problem. I know it may sound selfish but so are you demanding that I have to be a real tank so you can hump every boss for 10 min. You are the reason why there isnt enough real tanks.

90% of the pugs to less than 10k dps and base game dungeons dont teach them anything. Fake tanks bring extra dps, lower EVERYONE'S queue times and often carry the group. So everyone wins, pls drop that moral bs.

VoidCommander · October 2020

Kurat wrote: »

People who complain here, I'm sorry that I don't have the same moral standards as you but to me it's just a game. If you really need a real tank in base game dungeon then it's YOU problem. I know it may sound selfish but so are you demanding that I have to be a real tank so you can hump every boss for 10 min. You are the reason why there isnt enough real tanks.

90% of the pugs to less than 10k dps and base game dungeons dont teach them anything. Fake tanks bring extra dps, lower EVERYONE'S queue times and often carry the group. So everyone wins, pls drop that moral bs.

Everyone needs to read this guy’s post. It sums it up perfectly. Fake tanking leads to faster queue times, faster dungeons, and higher group dps, often increasing it by a factor of 2 or more. That being said the only dungeons where a fake tank really doesn’t belong unless they throw on some tank specific gear might be SOME dlc dungeons. But honestly almost any self healing dos can solo most of these normal dungeons, let alone stomp them with three supporting teammembers.

SidraWillowsky · October 2020

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

The problem comes down to we have two streams of players: casuals and veterans.

Correction: it comes down to players with moral standards, and players without moral standards. And those with moral standards should never be worse off.

This isn't an ethics issue.

It IS an ethics issue. Some DPS have deemed themselves too good for the DPS queue or seem to think that THEIR time is more valuable than others' and it's annoying as hell as a DD to wait in the correct queue, only to have some jackhole fake tank pop up in my group.

I sometimes run with another DD and a healer and we pug a tank. Moving forward, when this happens, we're going to kick the fake tank when we get to the last boss. Have fun with that.

Calm_Fury · October 2020

VoidCommander wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

People who complain here, I'm sorry that I don't have the same moral standards as you but to me it's just a game. If you really need a real tank in base game dungeon then it's YOU problem. I know it may sound selfish but so are you demanding that I have to be a real tank so you can hump every boss for 10 min. You are the reason why there isnt enough real tanks.

90% of the pugs to less than 10k dps and base game dungeons dont teach them anything. Fake tanks bring extra dps, lower EVERYONE'S queue times and often carry the group. So everyone wins, pls drop that moral bs.

Everyone needs to read this guy’s post. It sums it up perfectly. Fake tanking leads to faster queue times, faster dungeons, and higher group dps, often increasing it by a factor of 2 or more. That being said the only dungeons where a fake tank really doesn’t belong unless they throw on some tank specific gear might be SOME dlc dungeons. But honestly almost any self healing dos can solo most of these normal dungeons, let alone stomp them with three supporting teammembers.

This is a completely false assumption.

Several dungeons cannot be completed with a fake take. This results in DOUBLE or TRIPLE the amount of time a true DPS and Healer have to spend on queue.

Saying that fake tanks reduce queue times is a flat out lie.

Just today I log on during my lunch break to do one dungeon. Got Vet Icereach. The tank was obviously a fake tank with 2H, Bow and jabbing everything. The group repeatedly wiped in the very first add pull because the Ice Atro just one shotted everyone. By the time I left and queue again, I had to stop.

Because of a fake tank, I wasn't able to do one dungeon during my allotted play time. Most days I can do ALL 3 when I don't get fake tanks.

Stop trying to justify this with this hypothetical perfect world where everyone wins with fake tanks. This is simply not true.

SgtNuttzmeg · October 2020

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

The problem comes down to we have two streams of players: casuals and veterans.

Correction: it comes down to players with moral standards, and players without moral standards. And those with moral standards should never be worse off.

This isn't an ethics issue.

It IS an ethics issue. Some DPS have deemed themselves too good for the DPS queue or seem to think that THEIR time is more valuable than others' and it's annoying as hell as a DD to wait in the correct queue, only to have some jackhole fake tank pop up in my group.

I sometimes run with another DD and a healer and we pug a tank. Moving forward, when this happens, we're going to kick the fake tank when we get to the last boss. Have fun with that.

It has nothing to do with DPS deeming themselves too good for a DPS queue. Try to think about it from our perspective. I have two options whenever I queue for a random normal:

#1 Queue as a DPS wait 30-45 mins, burn through the dungeon. Everybody is happy.
#2 Queue as a Tank: wait 10 mins, burn through the dungeon. Everybody is happy.

Let's say we wipe or we die, well in the end of the day it's just a game. It happens, especially with pugging. Pugging has always been a crap shoot and it always will be. It's not an ethics issue because it's just a game.

And nobody is hurt, but that isn't even my main concern. What about those casual players that aren't as versed as you and me? Those players that don't read tool tips, that don't know sets, don't know rotations. The majority of the player base. The people that slot abilities purely because they look cool. What happens when they queue as a tank, they are set up to play a tank but they don't meet your standards? Because I know plenty of casual tanks that run with a bow or dual back bar or use the Tormentor Set as a taunt. I know one in particular that only runs 2h and a lightning destro staff. Will you kick them too because they can't hold aggro consistently? Will you kick them because they don't know enough about the game to have a proper tank setup?

The problem is this game in it's very design a "play how you want to play game." The devs have stated it more times than not and for better for worse you will get people that won't pass the sniff test. They will queue for roles they probably shouldn't. You will get people queuing for dungeons that they have no hope of beating too but in the end it's a game and just like them we deserve a space too.

Kurat · October 2020

Calm_Fury wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

People who complain here, I'm sorry that I don't have the same moral standards as you but to me it's just a game. If you really need a real tank in base game dungeon then it's YOU problem. I know it may sound selfish but so are you demanding that I have to be a real tank so you can hump every boss for 10 min. You are the reason why there isnt enough real tanks.

90% of the pugs to less than 10k dps and base game dungeons dont teach them anything. Fake tanks bring extra dps, lower EVERYONE'S queue times and often carry the group. So everyone wins, pls drop that moral bs.

Everyone needs to read this guy’s post. It sums it up perfectly. Fake tanking leads to faster queue times, faster dungeons, and higher group dps, often increasing it by a factor of 2 or more. That being said the only dungeons where a fake tank really doesn’t belong unless they throw on some tank specific gear might be SOME dlc dungeons. But honestly almost any self healing dos can solo most of these normal dungeons, let alone stomp them with three supporting teammembers.

This is a completely false assumption.

Several dungeons cannot be completed with a fake take. This results in DOUBLE or TRIPLE the amount of time a true DPS and Healer have to spend on queue.

Saying that fake tanks reduce queue times is a flat out lie.

Just today I log on during my lunch break to do one dungeon. Got Vet Icereach. The tank was obviously a fake tank with 2H, Bow and jabbing everything. The group repeatedly wiped in the very first add pull because the Ice Atro just one shotted everyone. By the time I left and queue again, I had to stop.

Because of a fake tank, I wasn't able to do one dungeon during my allotted play time. Most days I can do ALL 3 when I don't get fake tanks.

Stop trying to justify this with this hypothetical perfect world where everyone wins with fake tanks. This is simply not true.

Lmao. You wiping at 1st trash pull had nothing to do with tank. It's the ice atro mechanic. If not killed quick enough he's gonna do this channel attack which is survivable btw if you got decent healer or self heals or you rolldodge couple times.
This is a good example of pug dps, blames others while cant do enough dps himself and survive simple mechanic.

LordSarevok · October 2020

Literally discussing these issues with a poll I made. As a real tank who has tanked vet HM most content in the game. Sometimes I get bored and or want to recruit for my guild, I queue up for pug vet dlc dungeons. The sheer amount of people who have no idea what they just stepped into is astronomical... ZoS has failed. We need each class role to pass some kind of test for harder content. I can tell you that vMA as frustrating as it was at first, absolutely made me a better player. Tanking vet trials and dlc dungeons I only attempted after starting out small. None of the dungeons or trials have a difficulty associated with them in a visual form... ZoS fails again. Imagine a guy who just did vet hel ra, feeling like he has a grip on things, then steps into vet Kynes Aegis. How would he know?

Ackwalan · October 2020

VoidCommander wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

People who complain here, I'm sorry that I don't have the same moral standards as you but to me it's just a game. If you really need a real tank in base game dungeon then it's YOU problem. I know it may sound selfish but so are you demanding that I have to be a real tank so you can hump every boss for 10 min. You are the reason why there isnt enough real tanks.

90% of the pugs to less than 10k dps and base game dungeons dont teach them anything. Fake tanks bring extra dps, lower EVERYONE'S queue times and often carry the group. So everyone wins, pls drop that moral bs.

Everyone needs to read this guy’s post. It sums it up perfectly. Fake tanking leads to faster queue times, faster dungeons, and higher group dps, often increasing it by a factor of 2 or more. That being said the only dungeons where a fake tank really doesn’t belong unless they throw on some tank specific gear might be SOME dlc dungeons. But honestly almost any self healing dos can solo most of these normal dungeons, let alone stomp them with three supporting teammembers.

When I've played my DPS and had a fake tank (a tank that can't hold aggro of boss) the run was never good in any manner of speaking.

AyaDark · October 2020

Those who blame others for their own fails, always play bad.
Those who did not, start to play better.
Those who did not give up already solo content, where you blame some one for fake tanking.

It is not there mistake or some thing they do bad.

It is just your own fail.

svendf · October 2020

VoidCommander wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

People who complain here, I'm sorry that I don't have the same moral standards as you but to me it's just a game. If you really need a real tank in base game dungeon then it's YOU problem. I know it may sound selfish but so are you demanding that I have to be a real tank so you can hump every boss for 10 min. You are the reason why there isnt enough real tanks.

90% of the pugs to less than 10k dps and base game dungeons dont teach them anything. Fake tanks bring extra dps, lower EVERYONE'S queue times and often carry the group. So everyone wins, pls drop that moral bs.

Everyone needs to read this guy’s post. It sums it up perfectly. Fake tanking leads to faster queue times, faster dungeons, and higher group dps, often increasing it by a factor of 2 or more. That being said the only dungeons where a fake tank really doesn’t belong unless they throw on some tank specific gear might be SOME dlc dungeons. But honestly almost any self healing dos can solo most of these normal dungeons, let alone stomp them with three supporting teammembers.

No they can not solo those dungeons. You wanna create a sort of believe that all can solo these dungeons, when it alll comes to the show me, around 1-2 % can do that and even struggle, they even go down alot of times. So what´s the point ?

Don´t post things on forums, which isn´t true for most in ESO

svendf · October 2020

AyaDark wrote: »

Those who blame others for their own fails, always play bad.
Those who did not, start to play better.
Those who did not give up already solo content, where you blame some one for fake tanking.

It is not there mistake or some thing they do bad.

It is just your own fail.

You just blamed fake tanks fail on others, didn´t you ?

How abou create a tank and se, what you are made of. And don´t pull the one you allready have - some how I don´t be lieve that.

In a group with 3 guildies you fakes are history , we don´t need you because the run will be more organized and calm - people can cower their own ground thay way.

Who wan´t someone running in circles, jumping around doing light attacs

or did I misunderstand your post, if so I´m sorry.

AyaDark · October 2020

Protossyder wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Imagine being angry about getting carried through a random normal... If you really believe the queue waiting time is the only reason to fake tank/heal, you're truly lost. I just don't want to waste 30 mins in a dungeon that can be done in 5 and running with 3 - 4 DDs is way more efficient to maximize dps (atleast in normal dungeons).
Most of the times none of the randoms know what they are doing and that's fine. I only needed them to enter the random normal anyways.
When my char is in a state where he needs to be carried (new char leveling skill lines for example) I queue together with a full level mate and we get the same result.
Never had any problems.. Fake tanking/healing can be done the right way imo and everybody wins

Imagine one wanna learn the dungeon and it´s mechanics and a dd enter and blow most everything away, which does´nt haappen often anyyway - mostly they createn havoc.

greate your own group and run as you wish. Don´t force your fake tanking onto other´s

Don't worry, you are free to leave the group if you wish to do so. Also, most of the times the randoms write something into the group chat, they want to know how we do so much dps and how they can improve their own. And we gladly take a minute of our time and give them a few tips and answer their questions.

It's funny how most people commenting here are trying to decrease toxicity by leaving the group/kicking from group and putting people on the ignore list (basically cancel any communication). You want to learn mechanics? Just ask and we'll explain it to you.

So are you. Differancce I play a role. I know it´s not eesy play as real tank.

It is actually. I really like tanking, but DD is my main role. Prove me wrong, but players that started as DDs make better tanks in my opinion. Only a true DD knows what a DD needs

And players who start as tanks, make better DDs

AyaDark · October 2020

svendf wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

People who complain here, I'm sorry that I don't have the same moral standards as you but to me it's just a game. If you really need a real tank in base game dungeon then it's YOU problem. I know it may sound selfish but so are you demanding that I have to be a real tank so you can hump every boss for 10 min. You are the reason why there isnt enough real tanks.

90% of the pugs to less than 10k dps and base game dungeons dont teach them anything. Fake tanks bring extra dps, lower EVERYONE'S queue times and often carry the group. So everyone wins, pls drop that moral bs.

Everyone needs to read this guy’s post. It sums it up perfectly. Fake tanking leads to faster queue times, faster dungeons, and higher group dps, often increasing it by a factor of 2 or more. That being said the only dungeons where a fake tank really doesn’t belong unless they throw on some tank specific gear might be SOME dlc dungeons. But honestly almost any self healing dos can solo most of these normal dungeons, let alone stomp them with three supporting teammembers.

No they can not solo those dungeons. You wanna create a sort of believe that all can solo these dungeons, when it alll comes to the show me, around 1-2 % can do that and even struggle, they even go down alot of times. So what´s the point ?

Don´t post things on forums, which isn´t true for most in ESO

Be those 2% who can.

AyaDark · October 2020

svendf wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

Those who blame others for their own fails, always play bad.
Those who did not, start to play better.
Those who did not give up already solo content, where you blame some one for fake tanking.

It is not there mistake or some thing they do bad.

It is just your own fail.

You just blamed fake tanks fail on others, didn´t you ?

How abou create a tank and se, what you are made of. And don´t pull the one you allready have - some how I don´t be lieve that.

In a group with 3 guildies you fakes are history , we don´t need you because the run will be more organized and calm - people can cower their own ground thay way.

Who wan´t someone running in circles, jumping around doing light attacs

or did I misunderstand your post, if so I´m sorry.

I start tank with 3 in 1 achivments on it.

After i play it for some time, i tank on DD, because i evaid attacks automatically.

Ant the same 3 in 1 achivments for DD.

I may be can not tank DLC hms, but just vet DLC with pug group is not a big problem.
Exept may be last 2 DLC dunguans, was there only once as DD and do not know boss attacks timing.

So all i say is just:
Not DLC - is not a problem.
DLC - may be be a problem, if party is not good. But it is not only fake tanks problem, so i do not see any problem in fake tanking.

Every body expect some thing from others - everyone !!! But no one wants to do it himself.
You start play better only than, when you start do more, that you think you must do based on your opinion about your role.

DD is not some thing like - " damage do and nothing more to do ".

When i play DD do you know what i do if heal is not enough ? I heal.
If mob on me ? Tank it to tank, he can take it more easely.

And only when all is ok i do DPS.

DD is not about dummy hit rotation.
Dummy is just test perfect conditions.
Just for some tests - not for some real actions.

svendf · October 2020

AyaDark wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

People who complain here, I'm sorry that I don't have the same moral standards as you but to me it's just a game. If you really need a real tank in base game dungeon then it's YOU problem. I know it may sound selfish but so are you demanding that I have to be a real tank so you can hump every boss for 10 min. You are the reason why there isnt enough real tanks.

90% of the pugs to less than 10k dps and base game dungeons dont teach them anything. Fake tanks bring extra dps, lower EVERYONE'S queue times and often carry the group. So everyone wins, pls drop that moral bs.

Everyone needs to read this guy’s post. It sums it up perfectly. Fake tanking leads to faster queue times, faster dungeons, and higher group dps, often increasing it by a factor of 2 or more. That being said the only dungeons where a fake tank really doesn’t belong unless they throw on some tank specific gear might be SOME dlc dungeons. But honestly almost any self healing dos can solo most of these normal dungeons, let alone stomp them with three supporting teammembers.

No they can not solo those dungeons. You wanna create a sort of believe that all can solo these dungeons, when it alll comes to the show me, around 1-2 % can do that and even struggle, they even go down alot of times. So what´s the point ?

Don´t post things on forums, which isn´t true for most in ESO

Be those 2% who can.

Why ? And even if I could or can, that´s not for the forums to know. What combinations I run or how isn´t important.

What is important, is stopping fake tanking and let dds learn to run a dungeon with a tank and healer, so they can focus on dps and be omfort in their role as dps and not gear up as a hybrid kind of dps tank for survival and low dps.

AyaDark · October 2020

svendf wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

People who complain here, I'm sorry that I don't have the same moral standards as you but to me it's just a game. If you really need a real tank in base game dungeon then it's YOU problem. I know it may sound selfish but so are you demanding that I have to be a real tank so you can hump every boss for 10 min. You are the reason why there isnt enough real tanks.

90% of the pugs to less than 10k dps and base game dungeons dont teach them anything. Fake tanks bring extra dps, lower EVERYONE'S queue times and often carry the group. So everyone wins, pls drop that moral bs.

Everyone needs to read this guy’s post. It sums it up perfectly. Fake tanking leads to faster queue times, faster dungeons, and higher group dps, often increasing it by a factor of 2 or more. That being said the only dungeons where a fake tank really doesn’t belong unless they throw on some tank specific gear might be SOME dlc dungeons. But honestly almost any self healing dos can solo most of these normal dungeons, let alone stomp them with three supporting teammembers.

No they can not solo those dungeons. You wanna create a sort of believe that all can solo these dungeons, when it alll comes to the show me, around 1-2 % can do that and even struggle, they even go down alot of times. So what´s the point ?

Don´t post things on forums, which isn´t true for most in ESO

Be those 2% who can.

Why ? And even if I could or can, that´s not for the forums to know. What combinations I run or how isn´t important.

What is important, is stopping fake tanking and let dds learn to run a dungeon with a tank and healer, so they can focus on dps and be omfort in their role as dps and not gear up as a hybrid kind of dps tank for survival and low dps.

Stop fake DD then, to let more Tanks normally play randoms and learn how to play.

The fake tank problem is - " no tanks ", no tanks - why ?
Because of fake DDs.
If no fake DDs it will be more tanks, who enjoy the game => no fake tanks, because normal time looking for normal tank.

svendf · October 2020

AyaDark wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

AyaDark wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

People who complain here, I'm sorry that I don't have the same moral standards as you but to me it's just a game. If you really need a real tank in base game dungeon then it's YOU problem. I know it may sound selfish but so are you demanding that I have to be a real tank so you can hump every boss for 10 min. You are the reason why there isnt enough real tanks.

90% of the pugs to less than 10k dps and base game dungeons dont teach them anything. Fake tanks bring extra dps, lower EVERYONE'S queue times and often carry the group. So everyone wins, pls drop that moral bs.

Everyone needs to read this guy’s post. It sums it up perfectly. Fake tanking leads to faster queue times, faster dungeons, and higher group dps, often increasing it by a factor of 2 or more. That being said the only dungeons where a fake tank really doesn’t belong unless they throw on some tank specific gear might be SOME dlc dungeons. But honestly almost any self healing dos can solo most of these normal dungeons, let alone stomp them with three supporting teammembers.

No they can not solo those dungeons. You wanna create a sort of believe that all can solo these dungeons, when it alll comes to the show me, around 1-2 % can do that and even struggle, they even go down alot of times. So what´s the point ?

Don´t post things on forums, which isn´t true for most in ESO

Be those 2% who can.

Why ? And even if I could or can, that´s not for the forums to know. What combinations I run or how isn´t important.

What is important, is stopping fake tanking and let dds learn to run a dungeon with a tank and healer, so they can focus on dps and be omfort in their role as dps and not gear up as a hybrid kind of dps tank for survival and low dps.

Stop fake DD then, to let more Tanks normally play randoms and learn how to play.

The fake tank problem is - " no tanks ", no tanks - why ?
Because of fake DDs.
If no fake DDs it will be more tanks, who enjoy the game => no fake tanks, because normal time looking for normal tank.

Fake tanks can create a situation, where they in easy dungeons burn everything and pushing new playeer´s into a carry situation, They don´t learn anything and expect a carry everythime more or les.

That you don´t find tanks or not that many in normal dungeons, who do PUG. Boils down how they are treaded, by dds, who are not use to them and really haven´t learned, how to team with a tank. Then you have those, who wanna show off and doing the tanks job much harder.

I have been luckly so fare (crossing my fingers), i believe. Eventhough yesterday I had a dd, who thought he was gods gift to ESO - trying to show off.

When I started out in ESO as a DD. I was rather hard on tanks and not to mention healers. It´s a maturing thing I believe and growing, with ESO and learn.

It´s about back tracking, what did I do wrong ? Why did I do as I did ? With a fake tank at your side only two things can haappen. 1: Create havoc 2: You don´t learn anything you get carried.

In both cases dungeons can be cleared or not and lead to people leave, disband or even multible wipes.