Kurat wrote: »

Don't pug if you can't stand fake roles or bad players. This is a game and its meant to be played as you want. And that's exactly what I'm doing. I use the builds I want and queue for the role I want. If my build, skill level or play style doesn't meet your standards then play with the people you know. I don't get these threads, people get so worked up if random pugs dont perform as world class as some YouTube groups.
It took me 7 attempts with different groups to get vFV pledge done yesterday. And not because we had any fake roles, but because people rage quit so easily over everything. Does everyone expect trifecta achievements with pugs lmao?

You can play as you want, but you have to life with getting kicked or ppl dropping out of your group.

I had my fair share of "i play like i want" players and they are the most selfish ppl i ever encountered in games. Dont want to learn or follow mechs. Expect the rest of the group to compensate for their lack of damage and usually expect a free carry so they can continue with whatever playstyle they have.

If I get into a dg and the healer or the tank becomes werewolf I leave without saying a word. I don't even waste time. Since I usually play either as a healer or as a tank, I don't wait much until I get called again.

Kurat wrote: »

People who hate fake tanks, do you realize that if ppl didn't queue as fake tanks your queue would be even longer. I would rather take fake tank and get the dungeon done than wait in queue for extra 30min. Theres no need for real tank in norm or non dlc vets. And I've never seen fake tank in vet dlcs, just some bad ones.

Excuse #23. The issue is queue jumpers. Roles in ESO work on the honor system and some don't have any because they're special.

Calm_Fury wrote: »

idk wrote: »

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svendf wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

A tank's job isn't easy. One dungeon you are the hero(most of the time), and everyone wants to keep queuing the next pledge with you. Yet the next dungeon you are called names.

All this makes me think about who is in charge in a dungeon? ... I thought everyone was supposed to follow the tank? But my guess is players aren't used to this, as they expect every tank to be a fake tank now. Instead of a real tank who controls the group, and the situations surrounding them. So for alot of things, fake tanks are the blame.

If a tank stops moving, or does not pull something, they have a reason for it! Atleast I do.

Maybe a way to stop fake tanks is having to have atleast 5 pieces of heavy armor equipped, have the entire heavy armor skillline filled out(besides ultimate), have atleast 25k resistances, have atleast one taunt equipped, and have atleast 30k hp to be able to queue as a tank role at level 50. And ofcourse being unable to change gear/skills when inside a dungeon. Not below level 50 as players will still be leveling/learning/training, so they won't be able to meet those requirements yet. But at level 50, that is the very least players should be expecting from a tank.

That is probably the WORST idea I have ever heard.

1. Good tanks always carry at least a few alternate sets they need to change to at any given time...the same applies to skills.
2. You do NOT need 25k resistances to successfully tank a dungeon(with maybe a couple exceptions).
3. You do not NEED heavy armor to tank. I have a medium armor tank who does just fine(on that one I use Armor Master...haven't updated it in years or I might use fortified brass instead)
4. You do not NEED 30k health to tank...again, for the most part, there are a couple fights you simply aren't going to easily survive with less

So not a single idea of yours does ANYTHING other than pigeonholing all tanks into one specific type of build. Thats a resounding NO! The solution has been there since they implemented group finder...vote to kick. If a tank isn't doing their job...vote to kick, if they are, everything is good. If you have trouble finding a replacement....make some friends with some tanks...they will be happy to help you out if you aren't toxic.

It´s about getting rid of fake tanking. Do you mind ? The gentleman you reply to have a point. Are you able to let´´s say get 38K health and 30k resistanse on medium, light armor that´s ok, why not I´m all for it - have not tried it and se if it´s possible.

Now! How do we get rid of fake tanking ? Any suggestions ?

Considering their requirements are to implement what is needed for HM trial tanking it is very much extreme. Considering most fake tanks are in normal mode dungeons the idea is even that much more extreme.

If we are going to do this we might as well solve the fake DPS issue, which is just as bad, and require good trial level dps to join the queue? Maybe 40k dps for vet dungeons? Both DPS required to pull 50k to enable HM on the final boss. I think we should go easier on normal dungeons and only require 30k DPS.

Maybe it is a good idea to set such stringent standards after all.

The reality is there is not a good way to get rid of fake tanks. The first thing is vote kicking the fake tanks consistently. The reason they are as prevalent as they are is players are accepting of them because they got a queue. I say, be the solution yourself, kick the tank, have a backup setup for tanking (I stam tanked a vet HM on a Magicka DPS by changing gear and skills, not CP), and queue for a replacement DPS. As noted earlier I know players who have tanked final bosses on HM as DPS with a taunt. It really is that simple.

Oh, and also correct the situation that is the reason most decent tanks will not queue solo for a dungeon.

I don't think any of those hard requirements would work with ESO.

The solution to fake tank is to make the penalty bigger than the risk. Right now, fake tanks have 0 consequences.

What I wanted to see was a "special" Vote to Kick function, something like "Vote for Fake Role". If a person gets kicked repeatedly for that in a set period of time, they would be unable to use Group Finder for some time, just like the social ban.

Obviously this couldn't happen right away as to not be abused, but fake tanks do that all the time. I bet they would be kicked multiple times in a short amout of time for that reason. Then they would be unable to use GF for increasing periods of times.

That is really the only way I see this being solved in ESO since we don't really have special classes for tanking to set as hard requirements.

Hard req on dps will def make the que better, at least it will significantly shorten the dps que time. So there will be less incentive for fake tank (because they save less time thus less gain).

Ofc whatever you suggest can be added on top. This way bypassing que entry dps check through fake tank will be punished extra hard.

If a fake or incompetent tank isn't upsetting enough to groupmates to get kicked, how bad is it that they queued as a tank in the first place?

And the same goes for other roles, of course.

Kurat wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

People who hate fake tanks, do you realize that if ppl didn't queue as fake tanks your queue would be even longer. I would rather take fake tank and get the dungeon done than wait in queue for extra 30min. Theres no need for real tank in norm or non dlc vets. And I've never seen fake tank in vet dlcs, just some bad ones.

Excuse #23. The issue is queue jumpers. Roles in ESO work on the honor system and some don't have any because they're special.

Omg lmao. People don't jump the queue because they feel special. I queue as fake tank because it makes no sense to queue with real one for easy content and it saves EVERYONE time. Let me give you an example. Did vSC1 pledge yesterday and queued as fake tank. Did 50% of dps and dungeon was done in less than 10 min. No one died no one complained. If I didn't queue as fake tank, the other 3 would have been still sitting in queue for another 20 min and their run would have also taken extra 10 min because of 2 dps and a REAL tank. So I saved everyone 30 min. How is this bad?
I dont get why ppl are so salty, no one stops you from queuing as fake tank also. You would do others a favor. Why gimp your group with real tank when they are not needed.

Your argument are allway´s the same - "time", "easy content". Seems you don´t have time playing ESO. Who gives you the right to put forward, what other player´s "think" or "believe".

It seems it´s not only tanks, who are your problem,even healers. Support roles isn´t something you are in favor of and you be deliverer that message in a veyr arrogant and provocative way.

A dps playing with a tank and healer will only make them better player´s in every level of group content out there in ESO, because the role as dps becomes more clear to them as new player´s. Carrie new player´s through low level to high level content don´t help with anything. First of all they don´t learn about mechanics, they don´t se mechanics needed to continue to eveolve and progress as a player.

You are very few,, but at the end of the day you create alot of havoc for new player´s and player´s, who wanna progress in a normal manner and learn.

The argument that you are helping out the que is not corect simply because longer ques haappen during events often, nothing you are changing there. The possitive about all this is outside events I do se more and more tanks and healers in content, which is what ESO need, because working in a group, with a tank and healer will give you an insight of what a dps role is about - handling different situations.

One thing that will solve the problem is a health pool check, when queing as a tank as explaiined in the video above - someething ZOS should implement as soon as possible.

Jeremy wrote: »

The role of a tank is, and I quote:

Absorbs damage from enemies and prevents allies from being attacked.

That is from ESO the game itself, so I think they have the final word on this. So if you queue up as a role that does not focus on doing that then you are a fake tank.

Singing up for a dungeon in some uber solo build and letting your teammates die while you solo Vet Hard Modes does not make you a tank. People need to learn the group finder is built around specific roles and working together as a team. If players want to implement different strategies based on independent solo builds then they should form their own groups.

Another solution would be for the developers to add another feature to the group finder that players can sign up for with no designated roles. I'm in favor of adding such an option. Because posters are not wrong when they say much of the content does not require specific roles to complete. But that is no excuse to lie about performing a role you really have no intention of doing.

But you can do this a DPS. That's the problem. The problem isn't people choosing to do this but rather that a Light Armor Wearing MagicDPS can do this with ease.

Protossyder wrote: »

Imagine being angry about getting carried through a random normal... If you really believe the queue waiting time is the only reason to fake tank/heal, you're truly lost. I just don't want to waste 30 mins in a dungeon that can be done in 5 and running with 3 - 4 DDs is way more efficient to maximize dps (atleast in normal dungeons).
Most of the times none of the randoms know what they are doing and that's fine. I only needed them to enter the random normal anyways.
When my char is in a state where he needs to be carried (new char leveling skill lines for example) I queue together with a full level mate and we get the same result.
Never had any problems.. Fake tanking/healing can be done the right way imo and everybody wins

Imagine one wanna learn the dungeon and it´s mechanics and a dd enter and blow most everything away, which does´nt haappen often anyyway - mostly they createn havoc.

greate your own group and run as you wish. Don´t force your fake tanking onto other´s

svendf wrote: »

Protossyder wrote: »

Imagine being angry about getting carried through a random normal... If you really believe the queue waiting time is the only reason to fake tank/heal, you're truly lost. I just don't want to waste 30 mins in a dungeon that can be done in 5 and running with 3 - 4 DDs is way more efficient to maximize dps (atleast in normal dungeons).
Most of the times none of the randoms know what they are doing and that's fine. I only needed them to enter the random normal anyways.
When my char is in a state where he needs to be carried (new char leveling skill lines for example) I queue together with a full level mate and we get the same result.
Never had any problems.. Fake tanking/healing can be done the right way imo and everybody wins

Imagine one wanna learn the dungeon and it´s mechanics and a dd enter and blow most everything away, which does´nt haappen often anyyway - mostly they createn havoc.

greate your own group and run as you wish. Don´t force your fake tanking onto other´s

Running a random normal doesn't teach you anything. The bar is so low on mechanics you can scrap by on pretty much anything. Thats the flaw. You don't need a taunt, you don't need heavy armor, you don't need healing. If you did, fake tanking wouldn't happen.

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

If a fake or incompetent tank isn't upsetting enough to groupmates to get kicked, how bad is it that they queued as a tank in the first place?

And the same goes for other roles, of course.

A bad tank or incompetent one - whatever "you" wanna call it isn´t the same as aa fake tank, who really don´t care about anything other than themself.

A real tank wanna learn the role same way as a dd or healer. They can all be on different levels.

With a healt pool check it will stop

You only need a real tank in vet dlc content, and for some of them only for the HM. But there's a caveat on that - the group needs to be good, and know how to play. If the rest of the group is weaker or doesn't know the content well, then a tank is safer.

For normals, even dlc, you do not need a tank. The last time I 4xdps normal dlc pledges the longest boss fight took 11 seconds. I think I had to dodge roll once.

OmniDo wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

Running a random normal doesn't teach you anything. The bar is so low on mechanics you can scrap by on pretty much anything. Thats the flaw. You don't need a taunt, you don't need heavy armor, you don't need healing. If you did, fake tanking wouldn't happen.

#Truth.
Preach on, brotha/sista/whateva.

speaking only for myself. Not trying to convince you about anyything, who belong to that camp. It´s about putting the word out and inform about the havoc it creates.

I have seen more fakes going down because of low health pool and bad gear than real tanks.

You are alway´s welcome to feel cool and laughing about problems it createt, that´s your privilege

svendf wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

If a fake or incompetent tank isn't upsetting enough to groupmates to get kicked, how bad is it that they queued as a tank in the first place?

And the same goes for other roles, of course.

A bad tank or incompetent one - whatever "you" wanna call it isn´t the same as aa fake tank, who really don´t care about anything other than themself.

A real tank wanna learn the role same way as a dd or healer. They can all be on different levels.

With a healt pool check it will stop

Not at all, do you know how easy it is to stack max health in this game? Also what's stopping a dd from popping bonerlord ult and queuing up, and unslotting it.

josiahva wrote: »

So I faked DPSed again yesterday in vDCII. I queued as a tank and again ran Leeching/Bahraha's Curse/Zaan and slotted some damage skills, largely AOE(great dungeon for that). We ran through the dungeon, and as usual, DPS was fairly low(group DPS averaging around 40-45k) I was consistently dealing some 25% of the damage(up to as much as 40% for the mobs). After the run, one of the DPS(magicka) was insisting I was hurting his DPS by not wearing Lord Warden. What? No one died the entire run, we finished easily enough...but I was hurting his DPS because he didn't get extra resistances in a base game dungeon? Don't get me wrong, I love Warden and its my default for DLC dungeons where I have magicka DPS in the group....but there is no way it can be construed as adding damage, unless you make the shaky argument that DPS can use it to stand in the stupid while they parse....but even then the healer should be able to heal them through that in a base game dungeon. The really surprising thing about this is that he had over 1600CP...of all people who should know better...he refused to answer when I asked him how running Lord Warden would increase his DPS. I can only conclude that DPS really do not like it when tanks do some fake DPS...but honestly I don't care, I will no longer run pure tanking sets in base game dungeons....as a matter of fact, I swapped to that setup in vLoM last night for that big open fight with the hoarvers and the plants...seemed to help there too(though DPSing while tanking...even mild DPSing is very resource intensive and negatively affects survivability in DLC dungeons.

As a tank, there are many sets I can run to boost group DPS of course....but they only work on a percentage scale, so if the DPS is low...its better to fake DPS it and add a flat 15k single target.

Exactly it's two folds the threshold of DPS produced by unoptimized set ups is really low and the threshold of what you need in order to tank is really low. If you addressed that and incentivized veteran players that do this to queue for veteran content you wouldn't run into this issue.

Not only that but it isn't really an issue. In the end of the day, as long as nobody died and the content is completed who cares what abilities people run. Realistically forcing people to play the game a particular way in order to queue as a tank undermines the core philosophy ZOS has which is play the game how you want to play it. If you want to play a NB tank that only uses Frost Staff Heavy Attacks to taunt. That is okay. But if I want to queue on my magblade dps roast everything in seconds it should be just as okay.

I'd also like to clarify. I don't like the fact that you can nessicarily fake tank content. I don't like that you can fake heal content. I want content that requires all the roles. But imposing requirements on tanks, will only hurt the newer/casual tanks that don't know what they are doing. And this is coming from somebody that plays with a wide mixture of players. I play with two guilds. One is an End Game PVP guild and the other is fairly casual rp guild. I have seen people create tanks with less than 25k Health, I have seen people create tanks that had almost 80k health but would run out of stamina at a drop of a hate and die because they couldn't heal or block.

The problem comes down to we have two streams of players: casuals and veterans. We also have two streams of dungeons, we need those dungeons to match up. There needs to be a reason for veteran players to primarily run vet content. And we used to. Back before Jewelry crafiting you needed to complete vet dungeons to get purple rings, before trait changing you needed to run vet dungeons multiple times to get the right trait on your monster helm, and you constantly needed more keys from pledges. The game has shifted away from a need to run veteran dungeons and therefore people are no longer running them over normals.