Fake Tanking

svendf

AyaDark wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Have been doing pledges for the entire last week, 4-8 per day. And I've only had a bad DPS group once! Every other group the DPS skyrocketed after 1-3 mobgroups. Even groups I thought weren't going to be able to kill the first boss, did so in good time.

I'm starting to think it's not poor DPS, but either WAY too high expectations OR you guys not controlling aggro/situations. I've had dungeons where I sometimes messed up on aggro, or where DPS pulls. It happens on occasion, mostly after not playing for a few hours as I had to refind the vibe. This makes DPS drop incredibly fast, as DPS tries to stay alive or dies.

Almost every dungeon I was in players asked me to queue for the next pledge(s). (Which I never did due to inventory full issues hehe)

Some dungeons go faster if you slow down just slightly. But low DPS is not an excuse for fake tanks!

PS: As a tank I do practically 0 damage, have 0 damage skills slotted! Only taunts, slows, CC, and debuffs equipped(and a ranged taunt/buffs on some of my tanks depending on class).

Edit: Alot of players do/did have issues with complicated mechanics though!

It sounds like you have been extremely lucky. Every tank and players with tanks I know from my raid group refuse to use the GF due to the quality of players they find there.

@Sarannah You are probably correct, that I have to high of expectations. I have had GF groups that could not kill Urata in vCoA II because they could not kill her adds before she healed from them. Another group could not kill the two mini-bosses before Skoria because no matter how I tanked that fight they could not kill the mini-bosses before we were overrun with to many atros. They could not even kill the atros faster than they spawned. The healer was even helping DPS. Both of those groups I filled after the original tank quit. No one died during those pulls so the tank did their job.

I guess having the expectations that a group can actually kill a boss, even mini-bosses, it a little to high.

A couple of friends and I queue 3-man a few times a week. Far too often we get a player, often melee, that dies to each PBAoE the boss does. We usually stop rezing after they fail twice because they are not learning from their mistakes. Heck, they should change to a range build. Again, I guess I have to high of expectations. A PBAoE is always around the boss and often the tank has no control over it (some can be interrupted).

So yea, blaming us for having to high expectations when the DPS fails to kill the boss time and time again or when we tank trials that make the vet dungeons look like child splay is far from correct. Another tank noted they use some DPS gear when they tank because GF groups often bring very bad DPS. With DPS in the 30ks with tank CP and they noted they are pulling have the DPS of the group meaning the DPS are averaging less than 15k and that is extremely low.

All this is why most decent tanks do not queue solo. It does not mean no decent tanks do, but few of them will risk a headache.

Some times DPS really is not a problem. I do not like to go tank now but last time i was - yes they do low dps.
They kill boss may be 5-10 minutes.
When i ask will they kill boss already - they say sorry.

I do not say anything more, we really do the DLC - can not say anything more bad. Low DPS but - no:
Tank put sets for us - tank heal me - tank's are supports and etc.
Just low dps is ok of all other is not that bad. Attitude is very important.

But it always looks like - pul everything - 0 DPS, a lot of telling what i need to do.
I once be in party with 2 like that. I get as angry that i take all ADDS and wipe tham by Calldown - and say thet they newer pass this run. And they do not. We can not kick them 2 on 2 sdituation. But then theu live and we pass with 2 randoms lower level - NORMALLy.

Tanks know what to do - it is there rall - and you may be not ! If you do not play it.

With this meta all try to loock at it is even worse.

Any party with 200 k dps needs warm cult from tank and etc.

May be lip rolling machine ? Tank is support - What ?

Tank have to survive on his own - excuseme ???? In robe and medium and tons of adds ??? With no support ?

She saw it some where ... .

- Ah it make difference ... . May be in madhouse ?

sad to hear you have been through that, can´t have been funny - maybe stressful also.

svendf

CrashTest wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

To answer your question: yes they are not needed for a lot of the content in this game. That is the core issue here, if you needed a tank and a healer to beat a normal dungeon you wouldn't get fake tanks because it simply wouldn't work. People wouldn't clear the content.

That's a bit misleading. You don't need a tank or healer ONLY if you're experienced and skilled enough to survive or solo and faceroll content. I guarantee you, this is not the majority of the player base. And I think people who are the exception constantly saying tanks and heals aren't needed add to the problem of fake tanks and heals bc DPS who can't do without tank and heals think they can, so they queue as fake tank and get dead or kite everything everywhere or mobs hitting everyone, causing the run to take longer than necessary.

Agreed 100%.

Jeremy

svendf wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

To answer your question: yes they are not needed for a lot of the content in this game. That is the core issue here, if you needed a tank and a healer to beat a normal dungeon you wouldn't get fake tanks because it simply wouldn't work. People wouldn't clear the content.

That's a bit misleading. You don't need a tank or healer ONLY if you're experienced and skilled enough to survive or solo and faceroll content. I guarantee you, this is not the majority of the player base. And I think people who are the exception constantly saying tanks and heals aren't needed add to the problem of fake tanks and heals bc DPS who can't do without tank and heals think they can, so they queue as fake tank and get dead or kite everything everywhere or mobs hitting everyone, causing the run to take longer than necessary.

Agreed 100%.

I think that's part of the problem.

You have high level and experienced players who have forgotten what it's like to be a new player who is just starting out to do group content. They assume because they can solo the dungeon and don't need a healer or tank then everyone else doesn't either. But that is definitely not the case. haha

Calm_Fury

idk wrote: »

.

svendf wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

A tank's job isn't easy. One dungeon you are the hero(most of the time), and everyone wants to keep queuing the next pledge with you. Yet the next dungeon you are called names.

All this makes me think about who is in charge in a dungeon? ... I thought everyone was supposed to follow the tank? But my guess is players aren't used to this, as they expect every tank to be a fake tank now. Instead of a real tank who controls the group, and the situations surrounding them. So for alot of things, fake tanks are the blame.

If a tank stops moving, or does not pull something, they have a reason for it! Atleast I do.

Maybe a way to stop fake tanks is having to have atleast 5 pieces of heavy armor equipped, have the entire heavy armor skillline filled out(besides ultimate), have atleast 25k resistances, have atleast one taunt equipped, and have atleast 30k hp to be able to queue as a tank role at level 50. And ofcourse being unable to change gear/skills when inside a dungeon. Not below level 50 as players will still be leveling/learning/training, so they won't be able to meet those requirements yet. But at level 50, that is the very least players should be expecting from a tank.

That is probably the WORST idea I have ever heard.

1. Good tanks always carry at least a few alternate sets they need to change to at any given time...the same applies to skills.
2. You do NOT need 25k resistances to successfully tank a dungeon(with maybe a couple exceptions).
3. You do not NEED heavy armor to tank. I have a medium armor tank who does just fine(on that one I use Armor Master...haven't updated it in years or I might use fortified brass instead)
4. You do not NEED 30k health to tank...again, for the most part, there are a couple fights you simply aren't going to easily survive with less

So not a single idea of yours does ANYTHING other than pigeonholing all tanks into one specific type of build. Thats a resounding NO! The solution has been there since they implemented group finder...vote to kick. If a tank isn't doing their job...vote to kick, if they are, everything is good. If you have trouble finding a replacement....make some friends with some tanks...they will be happy to help you out if you aren't toxic.

It´s about getting rid of fake tanking. Do you mind ? The gentleman you reply to have a point. Are you able to let´´s say get 38K health and 30k resistanse on medium, light armor that´s ok, why not I´m all for it - have not tried it and se if it´s possible.

Now! How do we get rid of fake tanking ? Any suggestions ?

Considering their requirements are to implement what is needed for HM trial tanking it is very much extreme. Considering most fake tanks are in normal mode dungeons the idea is even that much more extreme.

If we are going to do this we might as well solve the fake DPS issue, which is just as bad, and require good trial level dps to join the queue? Maybe 40k dps for vet dungeons? Both DPS required to pull 50k to enable HM on the final boss. I think we should go easier on normal dungeons and only require 30k DPS.

Maybe it is a good idea to set such stringent standards after all.

The reality is there is not a good way to get rid of fake tanks. The first thing is vote kicking the fake tanks consistently. The reason they are as prevalent as they are is players are accepting of them because they got a queue. I say, be the solution yourself, kick the tank, have a backup setup for tanking (I stam tanked a vet HM on a Magicka DPS by changing gear and skills, not CP), and queue for a replacement DPS. As noted earlier I know players who have tanked final bosses on HM as DPS with a taunt. It really is that simple.

Oh, and also correct the situation that is the reason most decent tanks will not queue solo for a dungeon.

I don't think any of those hard requirements would work with ESO.

The solution to fake tank is to make the penalty bigger than the risk. Right now, fake tanks have 0 consequences.

What I wanted to see was a "special" Vote to Kick function, something like "Vote for Fake Role". If a person gets kicked repeatedly for that in a set period of time, they would be unable to use Group Finder for some time, just like the social ban.

Obviously this couldn't happen right away as to not be abused, but fake tanks do that all the time. I bet they would be kicked multiple times in a short amout of time for that reason. Then they would be unable to use GF for increasing periods of times.

That is really the only way I see this being solved in ESO since we don't really have special classes for tanking to set as hard requirements.

svendf

Jeremy wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

To answer your question: yes they are not needed for a lot of the content in this game. That is the core issue here, if you needed a tank and a healer to beat a normal dungeon you wouldn't get fake tanks because it simply wouldn't work. People wouldn't clear the content.

That's a bit misleading. You don't need a tank or healer ONLY if you're experienced and skilled enough to survive or solo and faceroll content. I guarantee you, this is not the majority of the player base. And I think people who are the exception constantly saying tanks and heals aren't needed add to the problem of fake tanks and heals bc DPS who can't do without tank and heals think they can, so they queue as fake tank and get dead or kite everything everywhere or mobs hitting everyone, causing the run to take longer than necessary.

Agreed 100%.

I think that's part of the problem.

You have high level and experienced players who have forgotten what it's like to be a new player who is just starting out to do group content. They assume because they can solo the dungeon and don't need a healer or tank then everyone else doesn't either. But that is definitely not the case. haha

Agreed 100%. That´s why I did rise the question regarding "Who are those player´s, who don´t need tanks and healers".

It´s not hard to find out, who these player´s are but the question have to be rised as it is very close related to fake tanking and healing.

Jeremy

Calm_Fury wrote: »

idk wrote: »

.

svendf wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

A tank's job isn't easy. One dungeon you are the hero(most of the time), and everyone wants to keep queuing the next pledge with you. Yet the next dungeon you are called names.

All this makes me think about who is in charge in a dungeon? ... I thought everyone was supposed to follow the tank? But my guess is players aren't used to this, as they expect every tank to be a fake tank now. Instead of a real tank who controls the group, and the situations surrounding them. So for alot of things, fake tanks are the blame.

If a tank stops moving, or does not pull something, they have a reason for it! Atleast I do.

Maybe a way to stop fake tanks is having to have atleast 5 pieces of heavy armor equipped, have the entire heavy armor skillline filled out(besides ultimate), have atleast 25k resistances, have atleast one taunt equipped, and have atleast 30k hp to be able to queue as a tank role at level 50. And ofcourse being unable to change gear/skills when inside a dungeon. Not below level 50 as players will still be leveling/learning/training, so they won't be able to meet those requirements yet. But at level 50, that is the very least players should be expecting from a tank.

That is probably the WORST idea I have ever heard.

1. Good tanks always carry at least a few alternate sets they need to change to at any given time...the same applies to skills.
2. You do NOT need 25k resistances to successfully tank a dungeon(with maybe a couple exceptions).
3. You do not NEED heavy armor to tank. I have a medium armor tank who does just fine(on that one I use Armor Master...haven't updated it in years or I might use fortified brass instead)
4. You do not NEED 30k health to tank...again, for the most part, there are a couple fights you simply aren't going to easily survive with less

So not a single idea of yours does ANYTHING other than pigeonholing all tanks into one specific type of build. Thats a resounding NO! The solution has been there since they implemented group finder...vote to kick. If a tank isn't doing their job...vote to kick, if they are, everything is good. If you have trouble finding a replacement....make some friends with some tanks...they will be happy to help you out if you aren't toxic.

It´s about getting rid of fake tanking. Do you mind ? The gentleman you reply to have a point. Are you able to let´´s say get 38K health and 30k resistanse on medium, light armor that´s ok, why not I´m all for it - have not tried it and se if it´s possible.

Now! How do we get rid of fake tanking ? Any suggestions ?

Considering their requirements are to implement what is needed for HM trial tanking it is very much extreme. Considering most fake tanks are in normal mode dungeons the idea is even that much more extreme.

If we are going to do this we might as well solve the fake DPS issue, which is just as bad, and require good trial level dps to join the queue? Maybe 40k dps for vet dungeons? Both DPS required to pull 50k to enable HM on the final boss. I think we should go easier on normal dungeons and only require 30k DPS.

Maybe it is a good idea to set such stringent standards after all.

The reality is there is not a good way to get rid of fake tanks. The first thing is vote kicking the fake tanks consistently. The reason they are as prevalent as they are is players are accepting of them because they got a queue. I say, be the solution yourself, kick the tank, have a backup setup for tanking (I stam tanked a vet HM on a Magicka DPS by changing gear and skills, not CP), and queue for a replacement DPS. As noted earlier I know players who have tanked final bosses on HM as DPS with a taunt. It really is that simple.

Oh, and also correct the situation that is the reason most decent tanks will not queue solo for a dungeon.

I don't think any of those hard requirements would work with ESO.

The solution to fake tank is to make the penalty bigger than the risk. Right now, fake tanks have 0 consequences.

What I wanted to see was a "special" Vote to Kick function, something like "Vote for Fake Role". If a person gets kicked repeatedly for that in a set period of time, they would be unable to use Group Finder for some time, just like the social ban.

Obviously this couldn't happen right away as to not be abused, but fake tanks do that all the time. I bet they would be kicked multiple times in a short amout of time for that reason. Then they would be unable to use GF for increasing periods of times.

That is really the only way I see this being solved in ESO since we don't really have special classes for tanking to set as hard requirements.

I floated this suggestion around on the forums myself while back.

If they had a separate kick function designed specifically for people who fake their roles in order to cut in line of others who are legitimately signing up for the role it could trigger a time out from using the group finder for a period of time. I do think that's the most reasonable solution here.

The game masters would have to be on their game though and make sure people who abuse the function get temp. bans.

Wolfkeks

Jeremy wrote: »

The role of a tank is, and I quote:

Absorbs damage from enemies and prevents allies from being attacked.

That is from ESO the game itself, so I think they have the final word on this. So if you queue up as a role that does not focus on doing that then you are a fake tank.

[...]

I actually farm Elden Hollow I for that Wild Hunt Ring atm and I slotted a taunt and a shield for the group even though my character is normally a DD. And while I also deal damage I make sure that the mobs are only attacking me.

As long as you furfill your role, in this case, make sure your mates don't die and that the mobs are attacking you, it's fine.

So yeah I agree with you, try to furfill your role if you enter a dungeon.

Jeremy

Wolfkeks wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

The role of a tank is, and I quote:

Absorbs damage from enemies and prevents allies from being attacked.

That is from ESO the game itself, so I think they have the final word on this. So if you queue up as a role that does not focus on doing that then you are a fake tank.

[...]

I actually farm Elden Hollow I for that Wild Hunt Ring atm and I slotted a taunt and a shield for the group even though my character is normally a DD. And while I also deal damage I make sure that the mobs are only attacking me.

As long as you furfill your role, in this case, make sure your mates don't die and that the mobs are attacking you, it's fine.

So yeah I agree with you, try to furfill your role if you enter a dungeon.

Yeah, a well geared/played DPS can definitely tank Vet Elden Hollow 1 if they taunt and maybe block/dodge on occasion.

How defensive your character has to be to tank will rely on how difficult the content is. There is a whole world of difference between the defense required to tank one of the harder DLC Vet dungeons as an example and then Elden Hollow I.

That's one of the reasons I think they need to do a better job of separating their dungeons into difficulty tiers so tanks have a better idea of how much defense they need to get the job done. Because tanking builds that might work amazingly in one dungeon can get absolutely manhandled in another.

I have played all roles on this game and the difficulty curve on tanking is the most erratic on this game by far.

idk

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

idk wrote: »

With DPS in the 30ks with tank CP and they noted they are pulling have the DPS of the group meaning the DPS are averaging less than 15k and that is extremely low.

This is the other side of the issue. Tanking and Healing are really easy early on but DPSing has a far sharper learning curve. Something ZOS should really consider doing is providing a Tutorial that explains LA weaving and teaches the basics. Also in order to get have decent DPS you need some what good or well DPS oriented gear. I know a lot of casual tanks that have non optimized setups that can tank most vet dungeons but without a barebones DPS setup most DPS can't complete vet dungeon content.

I aware of the steeper learning curved for DPS, but in that comment, I was talking about the tank hitting 30k while the DPS were hitting about 15k each. At 15k I would say those players have not learned anything as that is the very bottom of the curve.

Heck, even beyond DPS I have seen some players at the very bottom of the curve. One melee DPS that was high CP said he did not have an interrupt. That is one of the first things we learn in ESO.

When we queue 3-man to roll the dice on what the GF might give us we have seen some pretty interesting players. Most seem to be melee and do not want to switch to range. So many die to PBAoEs. We rez them and they die again to the same PBAoE. They do not want to switch to range even though they are nowhere near skilled enough to play melee in many fights.

Yes, we do get some competent players from time to time but that is not the majority, sadly. That is the reason so many decent tanks refuse to use the GF. BTW, I also run with a casual guild to play with long time gaming friends and raid with a "learning" guild where most players are learning to clear what my main raiding guild has already cleared many times so I am not someone who is afraid of wiping or needs to play with the most skilled players on the servers.

Calm_Fury

Wolfkeks wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

The role of a tank is, and I quote:

Absorbs damage from enemies and prevents allies from being attacked.

That is from ESO the game itself, so I think they have the final word on this. So if you queue up as a role that does not focus on doing that then you are a fake tank.

[...]

I actually farm Elden Hollow I for that Wild Hunt Ring atm and I slotted a taunt and a shield for the group even though my character is normally a DD. And while I also deal damage I make sure that the mobs are only attacking me.

As long as you furfill your role, in this case, make sure your mates don't die and that the mobs are attacking you, it's fine.

So yeah I agree with you, try to furfill your role if you enter a dungeon.

Then you are tanking. That is the only thing we are talking about.

You can be 99% DPS, as long as those 1% is you tauntung bosses and big mobs.

As I said before, I'm a tank main. I have 5 that I play more than any other role.

But when I want to DPS or heal, I don't want to be blocking and dodging heavy attacks and healing myself for 90% of the fight because the "tank" can't taunt.

Nobody cares about health, resistances or even buffs/debuffs in most dungeons. As long as you taunt and keep mobs on you, that is fine.

Xebov

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

When you have horrible DPS players they expect you, as the tank, to be very good and hold the enemies in place - even when they can't kill the trash adds.

On the other end of the spectrum you'll have DDs with decent damage (not amazing, just decent) and they will not for the life of them allow you (tank) to pull the adds, and gather the adds into a nice tight ball they can burn.

What you get is this:

You have bad DDs that expect you to taunt most of the stuff and tank everything until they are able to kill it. Even if its 10mins. They get angry when you tell them that its not going to work.

If you get decent DDs they expect you to have the buff gear to buff them, even if selfish gear would be a betetr choice and tehy expect you to cover for their failures in mechanics and get upset when you die because of it.

If you get good DDs then they still expect you to cover for their deaths and mechanical failures and never die and blame you if you do.

AyaDark wrote: »

The most problem of current dd is, that they think that just hit dummy is enough. That is all they want to do. It is all that is needed for dps in their opinion.

Most DDs dont get this far.

oddbasket wrote: »

I'm just using the same logic, and by this logic, a much bigger plague in the queue finder is fake healers and dps going by pure numbers than fake tanks.

They are. I dont mind fake Healers in vanilla vet Dungeons. Problem is that most of them dont deal any DPS to make themselves usefull. Half of them just get carried.

For DDs its garbage at least half of the time, more for non pledge dungeons. Players think that its enought to queue for vet with barely 10k DPS and then tehy wonder why Tanks instantly leave the groups.

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

Supporting the group through buffs/debuffs are a major part of being a tank as well.

The major part of a Tank is to survive. Buffing and Debuffing are extras. Main problem is that even bad DDs expect the full package without offering anything in return.

svendf

Xebov wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

When you have horrible DPS players they expect you, as the tank, to be very good and hold the enemies in place - even when they can't kill the trash adds.

On the other end of the spectrum you'll have DDs with decent damage (not amazing, just decent) and they will not for the life of them allow you (tank) to pull the adds, and gather the adds into a nice tight ball they can burn.

What you get is this:

You have bad DDs that expect you to taunt most of the stuff and tank everything until they are able to kill it. Even if its 10mins. They get angry when you tell them that its not going to work.

If you get decent DDs they expect you to have the buff gear to buff them, even if selfish gear would be a betetr choice and tehy expect you to cover for their failures in mechanics and get upset when you die because of it.

If you get good DDs then they still expect you to cover for their deaths and mechanical failures and never die and blame you if you do.

AyaDark wrote: »

The most problem of current dd is, that they think that just hit dummy is enough. That is all they want to do. It is all that is needed for dps in their opinion.

Most DDs dont get this far.

oddbasket wrote: »

I'm just using the same logic, and by this logic, a much bigger plague in the queue finder is fake healers and dps going by pure numbers than fake tanks.

They are. I dont mind fake Healers in vanilla vet Dungeons. Problem is that most of them dont deal any DPS to make themselves usefull. Half of them just get carried.

For DDs its garbage at least half of the time, more for non pledge dungeons. Players think that its enought to queue for vet with barely 10k DPS and then tehy wonder why Tanks instantly leave the groups.

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

Supporting the group through buffs/debuffs are a major part of being a tank as well.

The major part of a Tank is to survive. Buffing and Debuffing are extras. Main problem is that even bad DDs expect the full package without offering anything in return.

You got some really good point there.

Na you really didn´t You straighten out some really important fackts.
Thank You

BleedMe_AnOcean

CrashTest wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

To answer your question: yes they are not needed for a lot of the content in this game. That is the core issue here, if you needed a tank and a healer to beat a normal dungeon you wouldn't get fake tanks because it simply wouldn't work. People wouldn't clear the content.

That's a bit misleading. You don't need a tank or healer ONLY if you're experienced and skilled enough to survive or solo and faceroll content. I guarantee you, this is not the majority of the player base. And I think people who are the exception constantly saying tanks and heals aren't needed add to the problem of fake tanks and heals bc DPS who can't do without tank and heals think they can, so they queue as fake tank and get dead or kite everything everywhere or mobs hitting everyone, causing the run to take longer than necessary.

This right here.

Why is it so damn difficult for people who have been playing this game (or others like it) for years to understand that the entire playerbase is not exceptionally skilled or experienced?

Why is it so damn difficult for people to find other players who share their play style? Seriously. It's astounding that so many people think that because they can run a dungeon in X manner or because they prefer to run a dungeon in X manner, everyone else in the entire player base - kids, people who have never played an MMO before, people who are new to ESO - should just do things the way one bored group member wants to do then just to appease them, even if it makes things 10 times more difficult for the other people in the group? It isn't the rest of the server population's job to play the game in a way that isn't really intended just so the people who are "bored" with their roles aren't so bored anymore. If you're bored with the role or the game to the point that you feel the need to enter a dungeon and force other people to accommodate you, that's a personal problem and it's selfish as hell.

Just find a group of people to run dungeons with who are cool with doing it the way YOU want to do it and stop forcing people who are learning, practicing, or interested in going into a dungeon with the intended composition to do what you want them to do. It isn't that hard. Really.

Eormenric

Milli_Rabbit wrote: »

KaGaOri wrote: »

Can you still kick the fake tank if they are the one with the crown? Got stuck with terrible one in normal White Gold Tower couple days back and assumed there's no getting rid of them since they are the group leader.

This "tank" died seconds into any boss fight (and again seconds after somebody resing them) + couple times to the mobs, wouldn't wait for questers, started bosses before mechanics could be explaind or all ppl even present in the boss area, causing wipe on each one of them due to some people being new to WGT and no time left to explain + once by 2 ppl being locked out of the fight. Have considered quitting, but ultimately felt sorry for person doing quest and stayed so they could complete it (+ I've been the one who foolishly passed the crown to tank at the start, making them unkickable - or maybe not?).

Yes! You can kick the group lead. The issue is you are at the mercy of the rest of the group. Sometimes people just don't care if the tank is a problem. Sometimes they don't know how to accept the kick. Other times they don't even notice. People usually don't care until you start wiping as a group.

THIS... THIS! You can complain about fake tanks all the live long day and I understand. When some hotshot is running around with a bow and pulling everything and dodge rolling into the next and next group because they want to go fast, it's pretty darn annoying. But if your group is surviving just fine amidst the chaos (and chaos is subjective here) and the mobs are actually dying a lot faster than usual, then you are fine. I repeat: If everything is going smoothly regardless, YOU ARE FINE. Sincerely, a Dual Wield tank. P.S. Did you know Flying Blade works with Tormentor set? Flash taunts!

AyaDark

Xebov wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

When you have horrible DPS players they expect you, as the tank, to be very good and hold the enemies in place - even when they can't kill the trash adds.

On the other end of the spectrum you'll have DDs with decent damage (not amazing, just decent) and they will not for the life of them allow you (tank) to pull the adds, and gather the adds into a nice tight ball they can burn.

What you get is this:

You have bad DDs that expect you to taunt most of the stuff and tank everything until they are able to kill it. Even if its 10mins. They get angry when you tell them that its not going to work.

If you get decent DDs they expect you to have the buff gear to buff them, even if selfish gear would be a betetr choice and tehy expect you to cover for their failures in mechanics and get upset when you die because of it.

If you get good DDs then they still expect you to cover for their deaths and mechanical failures and never die and blame you if you do.

AyaDark wrote: »

The most problem of current dd is, that they think that just hit dummy is enough. That is all they want to do. It is all that is needed for dps in their opinion.

Most DDs dont get this far.

oddbasket wrote: »

I'm just using the same logic, and by this logic, a much bigger plague in the queue finder is fake healers and dps going by pure numbers than fake tanks.

They are. I dont mind fake Healers in vanilla vet Dungeons. Problem is that most of them dont deal any DPS to make themselves usefull. Half of them just get carried.

For DDs its garbage at least half of the time, more for non pledge dungeons. Players think that its enought to queue for vet with barely 10k DPS and then tehy wonder why Tanks instantly leave the groups.

FangOfTheTwoMoons wrote: »

Supporting the group through buffs/debuffs are a major part of being a tank as well.

The major part of a Tank is to survive. Buffing and Debuffing are extras. Main problem is that even bad DDs expect the full package without offering anything in return.

True.

A lot of bad players thing that - tanking and healing is easy. That only DD is hard.

It is not true. It is opposite to it.

And some people say: healers are no need.
But if your hp go down = you are dead, so some one needs to heal you. It can be another dd or tank or 3 in 1.

You may not need healer if you already have one.

I do not need healer, the same for tank, and dd, because i am tank, heal and dd. And I can count on my own due setuation.

We go vBRP once in 3 dd and tank.
One DD say to me: i do not feal like we go 3 dd, its like 2,5 dd and some bad heal .DPS more !
I sad ok and we go 1,5 dd becouse i do dps and they ressurect each other. But the only thing that they do understand is there dps.
"I do 500 damage more than you !"

May be i am so unlucky to always get to party like this.

Thats why i understand good other people.

"The major part of a Tank is to survive. Buffing and Debuffing are extras. Main problem is that even bad DDs expect the full package without offering anything in return."


Yes exactly !!! I can put sets on if i will get heal like my sets give me in exchange.
But i once be in vCR on tank with party where hps of heals was:
1500 and 1200 !!! It is less then party of 12 players heals by just basick hp regen !

And they want full meta from you. In conditions like this !!!

And if the healer with 1500 hps is RL what will you do ?
"Heal is not enough - If you do not like you can go away"

Party must do some thing to get some thing. Fake tank, ok we dps more, try to survive and agr.
Or fake healer ? The same.

But when fake all party, yes he may be is fake tank, but the same for all fake party members.

And may be - the only problem if you cick some oneyou need wait - put partys in search in top priority than. You will not lose more then if it would be no fake tank than.

But the problem is: NO TANKS

Because of bad people in groups.

And thats why i hate META the most, MonkeyS always copy. They do not understand situation. If they can not copy some thing, may be they just start thinking.

Thats why i think other players must not get such information, they (a lot of them) can not use it.

It is like to give monkey the gun !

"It is much harder to hit some reason in there heads then - top 10 minutes runners use it,why we must not ?

Because you are not !

We are the same cool"

But they are not !

DigitalHype

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

NO for the love of all that is holy and unholy in ESO not another fake tank thread! While I agree it sucks it's here to stay folks. Now let's see a thread on Fake DPS and I'm all ears.

There is a difference between the intentions of a bad dps and fake tank when it comes to the role selection. The "fake" tanks are using it to get a shorter queue time. Many of us considerate DPS'ers could also fake tank, but do not. That is the only thing allowing those fake tanks to get a shorter queue time. If we all did it, the tank queue becomes just as long. Their behavior is nothing more than selfish.

There really aren't any "fake" dps. They are just "bad" dps. There is a difference. They at least waited their turn in the queue.

Xebov

DigitalHype wrote: »

There really aren't any "fake" dps. They are just "bad" dps. There is a difference. They at least waited their turn in the queue.

Which is not helping me in any way if i get 2 of them and slowly drives me out of the the dungeon finder.

regime211

Milli_Rabbit wrote: »

This practice needs to stop. If you are a DPS and you hate the queue wait times, find friends or become a real tank. It is not okay to queue as a tank when you are actually a DPS. Now, you might say, "But Milli, its just a normal". Yea, and you didn't bring a taunt nor can you survive for more than 1 second of a boss fight.

Let me make this clear. A DPS CAN tank. If you equip a taunt like Inner Rage or even Pierce Armor, you can tank if you are taunting the boss. You are doing the role of tank in that case. If you are surviving, you are doing the role well for a normal dungeon. You can also DPS, taunt, and survive. "What?! No way!" Yea way, man. Yea way.

So, before you queue up as a tank. Ask yourself: Do I have a taunt? And can I survive this? Because if you can't, your team will hate you and likely kick you.

I'm not going to Lie as a tank I'm tired of dealing with people who que as a dps and then light or heavy attack there way through a dungeon. No reason why I can either Tank or fake tank and still deal more dps than someone who is supposed to dps and stay alive while tanking as well.

regime211

Taunky wrote: »

I agree. I don't even care if it's the easiest dungeon in the game. If the rest of us had to wait in a long queue to get in, and you get in instantly due to faking your role - you're getting kicked.

If you can't do an "easy" dungeon with a fake tank or not one at all that doesn't necessarily needs one, I'm sorry to break it to you but it's a [snip] issue on the dps and healers role.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

oddbasket

Queueing random normal dungeon is a pain during ESO+ free trial. You get max CP dpses who don't know mechanics and can't do more than 5k dps on boss fights... and leech healers who cast regeneration on repeat and stand there till the fight is over...

Kurat

Don't pug if you can't stand fake roles or bad players. This is a game and its meant to be played as you want. And that's exactly what I'm doing. I use the builds I want and queue for the role I want. If my build, skill level or play style doesn't meet your standards then play with the people you know. I don't get these threads, people get so worked up if random pugs dont perform as world class as some YouTube groups.
It took me 7 attempts with different groups to get vFV pledge done yesterday. And not because we had any fake roles, but because people rage quit so easily over everything. Does everyone expect trifecta achievements with pugs lmao?

Iselin

Kurat wrote: »

Don't pug if you can't stand fake roles or bad players. This is a game and its meant to be played as you want. And that's exactly what I'm doing. I use the builds I want and queue for the role I want. If my build, skill level or play style doesn't meet your standards then play with the people you know. I don't get these threads, people get so worked up if random pugs dont perform as world class as some YouTube groups.
It took me 7 attempts with different groups to get vFV pledge done yesterday. And not because we had any fake roles, but because people rage quit so easily over everything. Does everyone expect trifecta achievements with pugs lmao?

Nah we just expect everyone to queue for what they are instead of being selfish snowflakes who feel entitled to jump the queue to get in faster as a "healer" or "tank."

Kurat

Iselin wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Don't pug if you can't stand fake roles or bad players. This is a game and its meant to be played as you want. And that's exactly what I'm doing. I use the builds I want and queue for the role I want. If my build, skill level or play style doesn't meet your standards then play with the people you know. I don't get these threads, people get so worked up if random pugs dont perform as world class as some YouTube groups.
It took me 7 attempts with different groups to get vFV pledge done yesterday. And not because we had any fake roles, but because people rage quit so easily over everything. Does everyone expect trifecta achievements with pugs lmao?

Nah we just expect everyone to queue for what they are instead of being selfish snowflakes who feel entitled to jump the queue to get in faster as a "healer" or "tank."

Why not form group yourself?
It's not against ToS to play as you want.

Iselin

Kurat wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Don't pug if you can't stand fake roles or bad players. This is a game and its meant to be played as you want. And that's exactly what I'm doing. I use the builds I want and queue for the role I want. If my build, skill level or play style doesn't meet your standards then play with the people you know. I don't get these threads, people get so worked up if random pugs dont perform as world class as some YouTube groups.
It took me 7 attempts with different groups to get vFV pledge done yesterday. And not because we had any fake roles, but because people rage quit so easily over everything. Does everyone expect trifecta achievements with pugs lmao?

Nah we just expect everyone to queue for what they are instead of being selfish snowflakes who feel entitled to jump the queue to get in faster as a "healer" or "tank."

Why not form group yourself?
It's not against ToS to play as you want.

What does that have to do with being a self-entitled queue jumper?

ImSoPro

I fake tank on my PvP frost warden all the time. Been doing it a lot lately for my undaunted keys. 22k HP, dual frost staves. I swap a DD set out for a tanking set and put on Bloodspawn and inner fire. I can tank almost any dungeon normal and vet. I haven’t tried to fake tank the vet DLC dungeons though. As long as you know the mechanics and can hold aggro the job gets done.

Smaxx

ImSoPro wrote: »

I fake tank on my PvP frost warden all the time. Been doing it a lot lately for my undaunted keys. 22k HP, dual frost staves. I swap a DD set out for a tanking set and put on Bloodspawn and inner fire. I can tank almost any dungeon normal and vet. I haven’t tried to fake tank the vet DLC dungeons though. As long as you know the mechanics and can hold aggro the job gets done.

That's not fake tanking. Equipping any taunt skill (or using frost staves with Tri Focus right now) combined with at least some HP buffer makes you a tank. Not necessarily the ideal/perfect one, but a tank, not a "fake tank". If you deal enough damage to keep aggro without taunting that would work, too, I guess.

Grandchamp1989

Jeremy wrote: »

Wolfkeks wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

The role of a tank is, and I quote:

Absorbs damage from enemies and prevents allies from being attacked.

That is from ESO the game itself, so I think they have the final word on this. So if you queue up as a role that does not focus on doing that then you are a fake tank.

[...]

I actually farm Elden Hollow I for that Wild Hunt Ring atm and I slotted a taunt and a shield for the group even though my character is normally a DD. And while I also deal damage I make sure that the mobs are only attacking me.

As long as you furfill your role, in this case, make sure your mates don't die and that the mobs are attacking you, it's fine.

So yeah I agree with you, try to furfill your role if you enter a dungeon.

Yeah, a well geared/played DPS can definitely tank Vet Elden Hollow 1 if they taunt and maybe block/dodge on occasion.

How defensive your character has to be to tank will rely on how difficult the content is. There is a whole world of difference between the defense required to tank one of the harder DLC Vet dungeons as an example and then Elden Hollow I.

That's one of the reasons I think they need to do a better job of separating their dungeons into difficulty tiers so tanks have a better idea of how much defense they need to get the job done. Because tanking builds that might work amazingly in one dungeon can get absolutely manhandled in another.

I have played all roles on this game and the difficulty curve on tanking is the most erratic on this game by far.

This is absolutely the truth.

As a healer you can one-bar every content in the game and you can use whatever random gear you want - dont even need to upgrade it.

For certain DLC trials and content -especially HM as tanks you absolutely can not mess around like a healer can.
One mistake and your tank in splattered on the ground even against elite adds.

You need your timings, mechs, resistances and sustain to be on point.

I'm not saying the healer job is easier... But the healing job is much more forgiving and chill.

svendf

This guy do have a point. Thank You for the video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=or1xjv-CR_4

ImSoPro

Smaxx wrote: »

ImSoPro wrote: »

I fake tank on my PvP frost warden all the time. Been doing it a lot lately for my undaunted keys. 22k HP, dual frost staves. I swap a DD set out for a tanking set and put on Bloodspawn and inner fire. I can tank almost any dungeon normal and vet. I haven’t tried to fake tank the vet DLC dungeons though. As long as you know the mechanics and can hold aggro the job gets done.

That's not fake tanking. Equipping any taunt skill (or using frost staves with Tri Focus right now) combined with at least some HP buffer makes you a tank. Not necessarily the ideal/perfect one, but a tank, not a "fake tank". If you deal enough damage to keep aggro without taunting that would work, too, I guess.

I guess you’re right. I just look at it as fake tanking cause I’m not optimized for it.

svendf

regime211 wrote: »

Taunky wrote: »

I agree. I don't even care if it's the easiest dungeon in the game. If the rest of us had to wait in a long queue to get in, and you get in instantly due to faking your role - you're getting kicked.

If you can't do an "easy" dungeon with a fake tank or not one at all that doesn't necessarily needs one, I'm sorry to break it to you but it's a [snip] issue on the dps and healers role.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Solution to you is plane and simple que as dd or make/level a tank or maybe that´s too hard.