sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »In response to nublife a few posts above:
-That video is fake news/narrative because hes not dueling a dueling build. If he dueled a top tier dueling build (almost all are stat based) then you would see a completely different outcome.
-You are right that proc metas have the "potential" to be bad, but so does anything else if it becomes imbalanced.
-This is an opinion. Wroble was great, the new devs seem pretty good too. Even if procs become "Meta" over stat sets, like they are in BG's -> thats a good thing because it shifts the meta and is fun. All games become old and boring eventually.
universal_wrath wrote: »Girl_Number8 wrote: »sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »I'm just going to put this here:
I watched the video and here is what I have to say: Dueling is only one form of pvp. Its a form of PVP where stat builds have primarily dominated for the entire life of ESO. I believe that video delivers a fake narrative because he is not dueling against a dueling build.
If proc builds are finally better in dueling than stat builds (which I highly doubt) -> that is a meta swing and keeps the game new and refreshing. I highly doubt its the case though, because that video expresses an anti proc viewpoint and hes probably dueling against an open world build. Procs are also really good in NOCP. That is really cool because there are so many proc sets and build diversity is opened up.
Procs have the potential to be bad if they are overperforming. Back when viper/tremorscale was a thing they were too strong. I personally don't think they are anything like that today. And I can bet you that if the narrator of the video dueled a min maxed stam dk/templar wearing fury/dragonguard/balorghs or something similar he would be struggling. That video feeds you a very narrow viewpoint. Its not a bad video though, and a fair opinion to have and with valid concerns.
If you watched the video you would know exactly what he was fighting against. It would make a very competitive duelling build btw...
He also invited players to duel him on the PTS you should do that so you can see for yourself.
Aside from the video, the tooltips of these proc sets are nearly double that of any equivalent skill. That is his/mine/our issue with them... That they are better than a stat build, not that they are good, that they are better. Leaving everyone but one option to play next patch.
They have to be better than a skill because they have to compete against other 5 piece sets, not against skills. Youre going to be using all of your skills whether you use a proc set or stat set, so that point is mute. When you choose what 5 piece set to wear, you are weighing it against other 5 piece sets. If they made procs as strong as a single ability cast, literally nobody would use these procs because the stat sets would be simply way better.
It is not a moot point and you are incorrect.
It is the other way around.
there is not one person in eso, nor a developer deciding whom is skilled and whom isn't.
we do not follow a book that 1 person wrote on what skilled play is.
each person is responsible for their own beliefs on what "skill" is.
You are correct, but the person in the video is know to fight against groups, also know as 1vX, sometimes alone and sometimes with 1 or 2 buddies. Does that not give him enough credit to talk about these stuff? Espacially since he is on the PTS and is actually testing the sets. Many people have already tested ghe already existing sets and as you can see, there is a reason why most people who use proc sets usualy stick to very few sets like caluurion or icy conjuror, you don't see people using sets like fire blossom or red mountain, because people tested these sets and found that they are not as effective as the letter.
if during a boxing match i saw the loosing opponent run around the ring in circles scared because 1 more hard hit would knock him out and he continued this untill the bell rang ending that round i know for a fact i would not consider that a skilled boxer. eso pvp is the same exact methodology when these players belief that running around a tree in circles till your fully healed is considered "skill" and then making that into a "way of pvp for ALL" and try to lead others in that method and then belittle and harass others whom don't follow that method and call them "unskilled" or weak, or "Bad Players" simply because they do not follow some one else's teaching is completely absurd.
exiledtyrant wrote: »exiledtyrant wrote: »... but it doesn't make Proc sets the villain.
did you watch the video linked in here by chance? I didn't have to time procs, I didn't have to care about 2-4 pc bonuses. I didn't care about the opportunity cost of stat based sets. I casted elemental drain and fetcher infection, then i light attacked over and over again until i killed a good player on an open world build. If you didn't see it, you should. That's what you're defending.
What I saw was a build more set up for 1 v 1 dueling go against a setup that looks to have given up pressure and 1v1 power for more survivability. Even more so it seems the person entering the duel didn't prepare to the same degree that you did. Were they cleansing? That's a purge that anyone can use and one morph would have even gave them 15% health while shutting you off your sets for 10 seconds.
I noticed the netch but 1 debuff per 5 second is getting nowhere when you can wipe 3 instantly. Did they try to adapt their gear pieces at all or did they just stick to their tried and true build without adapting? Duelist stack the deck in their favor as much as possible for 1 v1, and while I may have never liked dueling I can appreciate the ingenuity that goes into it.
All in all I saw 2 builds with fairly long time to kill do what was expected which is a single target sustain build eventually running down a tankier 1vX build. Then there's the matter of deciding if duels in general are any decent measure of balance when group PvP is the measuring stick for ESO. I didn't see a time to kill so extreme that it needed to be nerfed especially when it was not being actively countered or put up to strain against group support.
exiledtyrant wrote: »exiledtyrant wrote: »... but it doesn't make Proc sets the villain.
did you watch the video linked in here by chance? I didn't have to time procs, I didn't have to care about 2-4 pc bonuses. I didn't care about the opportunity cost of stat based sets. I casted elemental drain and fetcher infection, then i light attacked over and over again until i killed a good player on an open world build. If you didn't see it, you should. That's what you're defending.
What I saw was a build more set up for 1 v 1 dueling go against a setup that looks to have given up pressure and 1v1 power for more survivability. Even more so it seems the person entering the duel didn't prepare to the same degree that you did. Were they cleansing? That's a purge that anyone can use and one morph would have even gave them 15% health while shutting you off your sets for 10 seconds.
I noticed the netch but 1 debuff per 5 second is getting nowhere when you can wipe 3 instantly. Did they try to adapt their gear pieces at all or did they just stick to their tried and true build without adapting? Duelist stack the deck in their favor as much as possible for 1 v1, and while I may have never liked dueling I can appreciate the ingenuity that goes into it.
All in all I saw 2 builds with fairly long time to kill do what was expected which is a single target sustain build eventually running down a tankier 1vX build. Then there's the matter of deciding if duels in general are any decent measure of balance when group PvP is the measuring stick for ESO. I didn't see a time to kill so extreme that it needed to be nerfed especially when it was not being actively countered or put up to strain against group support.
It's not a dueling setup. I explain that in the video. There is no open world pvp on the pts.
exiledtyrant wrote: »exiledtyrant wrote: »exiledtyrant wrote: »... but it doesn't make Proc sets the villain.
did you watch the video linked in here by chance? I didn't have to time procs, I didn't have to care about 2-4 pc bonuses. I didn't care about the opportunity cost of stat based sets. I casted elemental drain and fetcher infection, then i light attacked over and over again until i killed a good player on an open world build. If you didn't see it, you should. That's what you're defending.
What I saw was a build more set up for 1 v 1 dueling go against a setup that looks to have given up pressure and 1v1 power for more survivability. Even more so it seems the person entering the duel didn't prepare to the same degree that you did. Were they cleansing? That's a purge that anyone can use and one morph would have even gave them 15% health while shutting you off your sets for 10 seconds.
I noticed the netch but 1 debuff per 5 second is getting nowhere when you can wipe 3 instantly. Did they try to adapt their gear pieces at all or did they just stick to their tried and true build without adapting? Duelist stack the deck in their favor as much as possible for 1 v1, and while I may have never liked dueling I can appreciate the ingenuity that goes into it.
All in all I saw 2 builds with fairly long time to kill do what was expected which is a single target sustain build eventually running down a tankier 1vX build. Then there's the matter of deciding if duels in general are any decent measure of balance when group PvP is the measuring stick for ESO. I didn't see a time to kill so extreme that it needed to be nerfed especially when it was not being actively countered or put up to strain against group support.
It's not a dueling setup. I explain that in the video. There is no open world pvp on the pts.
If you don't feel a build built around single target damage and high self healing isn't a duel setup or at least 1 v 1 oriented I won't argue semantics. There being no world PvP on PTS also doesn't remove my point that duels are not what determines balance in ESO PvP or otherwise. I saw nothing in that video that gave me the impression that their was an egregious time to kill or sustain issue due to proc sets. I did see two people take a very long time to try and kill each other, which would have given either of you enough time to escape or regroup in normal circumstances outside of being stuck inside a duel.
exiledtyrant wrote: »exiledtyrant wrote: »exiledtyrant wrote: »... but it doesn't make Proc sets the villain.
did you watch the video linked in here by chance? I didn't have to time procs, I didn't have to care about 2-4 pc bonuses. I didn't care about the opportunity cost of stat based sets. I casted elemental drain and fetcher infection, then i light attacked over and over again until i killed a good player on an open world build. If you didn't see it, you should. That's what you're defending.
What I saw was a build more set up for 1 v 1 dueling go against a setup that looks to have given up pressure and 1v1 power for more survivability. Even more so it seems the person entering the duel didn't prepare to the same degree that you did. Were they cleansing? That's a purge that anyone can use and one morph would have even gave them 15% health while shutting you off your sets for 10 seconds.
I noticed the netch but 1 debuff per 5 second is getting nowhere when you can wipe 3 instantly. Did they try to adapt their gear pieces at all or did they just stick to their tried and true build without adapting? Duelist stack the deck in their favor as much as possible for 1 v1, and while I may have never liked dueling I can appreciate the ingenuity that goes into it.
All in all I saw 2 builds with fairly long time to kill do what was expected which is a single target sustain build eventually running down a tankier 1vX build. Then there's the matter of deciding if duels in general are any decent measure of balance when group PvP is the measuring stick for ESO. I didn't see a time to kill so extreme that it needed to be nerfed especially when it was not being actively countered or put up to strain against group support.
It's not a dueling setup. I explain that in the video. There is no open world pvp on the pts.
If you don't feel a build built around single target damage and high self healing isn't a duel setup or at least 1 v 1 oriented I won't argue semantics. There being no world PvP on PTS also doesn't remove my point that duels are not what determines balance in ESO PvP or otherwise. I saw nothing in that video that gave me the impression that their was an egregious time to kill or sustain issue due to proc sets. I did see two people take a very long time to try and kill each other, which would have given either of you enough time to escape or regroup in normal circumstances outside of being stuck inside a duel.
Huh? One of participants was only light attacking — and he still won. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that if he'd have actually used some his abilities every now and then, there would have been a sharp reduction in TTK.exiledtyrant wrote: »exiledtyrant wrote: »exiledtyrant wrote: »... but it doesn't make Proc sets the villain.
did you watch the video linked in here by chance? I didn't have to time procs, I didn't have to care about 2-4 pc bonuses. I didn't care about the opportunity cost of stat based sets. I casted elemental drain and fetcher infection, then i light attacked over and over again until i killed a good player on an open world build. If you didn't see it, you should. That's what you're defending.
What I saw was a build more set up for 1 v 1 dueling go against a setup that looks to have given up pressure and 1v1 power for more survivability. Even more so it seems the person entering the duel didn't prepare to the same degree that you did. Were they cleansing? That's a purge that anyone can use and one morph would have even gave them 15% health while shutting you off your sets for 10 seconds.
I noticed the netch but 1 debuff per 5 second is getting nowhere when you can wipe 3 instantly. Did they try to adapt their gear pieces at all or did they just stick to their tried and true build without adapting? Duelist stack the deck in their favor as much as possible for 1 v1, and while I may have never liked dueling I can appreciate the ingenuity that goes into it.
All in all I saw 2 builds with fairly long time to kill do what was expected which is a single target sustain build eventually running down a tankier 1vX build. Then there's the matter of deciding if duels in general are any decent measure of balance when group PvP is the measuring stick for ESO. I didn't see a time to kill so extreme that it needed to be nerfed especially when it was not being actively countered or put up to strain against group support.
It's not a dueling setup. I explain that in the video. There is no open world pvp on the pts.
If you don't feel a build built around single target damage and high self healing isn't a duel setup or at least 1 v 1 oriented I won't argue semantics. There being no world PvP on PTS also doesn't remove my point that duels are not what determines balance in ESO PvP or otherwise. I saw nothing in that video that gave me the impression that their was an egregious time to kill or sustain issue due to proc sets. I did see two people take a very long time to try and kill each other, which would have given either of you enough time to escape or regroup in normal circumstances outside of being stuck inside a duel.
Now that you say it, something close to that has happened to me in the not too distant past with both werewolf light attacks and sorc overload attacks. It's not so far fetched.Imagine how annoyed you would be if fury and new moon were so powerful you could die to light attacks and one DOT. now reverse it.
There is a different agenda at work in duelling tournaments. One is to ban sets that might drag fights out forever, such as pre-nerf Troll King. The other is to balance the game for 1v1 encounters. I am not convinced the latter can be achieved. I watched a duelling tournament a few patches back where so many things were banned an entire class didn't turn up (I think it was sorc). A magblade looked impressive in the early rounds, dominating other players, then it ran into a brick wall when it faced the mag DK who won the tournament. I think I know what skill looks like. I think I also know what it looks like when your build just doesn't perform, putting you constantly on the defensive. This is what happened to the magblade in it's last fight.sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »relentless_turnip wrote: »I'm just going to put this here:
I watched the video and here is what I have to say: Dueling is only one form of pvp. Its a form of PVP where stat builds have primarily dominated for the entire life of ESO. I believe that video delivers a fake narrative because he is not dueling against a dueling build.
Not true, proc builds are and always have been very strong for dueling. Some even tend to get banned from dueling competitions because they are that op - something that to my knowledge never happens with stat based offensive sets. So the main reason why many duelers use stat based sets is that they enjoy them more, are more likely to find willing opponents - since not everyone enjoys fighting proc cheese and they don't have to worry about getting their build banned in competitions.
What was so devastating about Viper is that it procced reliably and suited every stam build. It was also an instant proc and it could be combined with another instant proc, Tremorscale. Things have changed. All proc sets have a one second activation delay and Caluurion has a very slow travel time thereafter. Furthermore the only class that can currently control the set's activation is magblade, by using Shadowy Disguise. I'd go so far as to say Caluurion was a bone thrown to a weak class. At the very least it is less controllable on other classes.SshadowSscale wrote: »Pre vipers sting change: 8k damage on melee attack every 4 seconds(note can proc off melee light attacks)
New caluurions: 13k damage on magic attack with 10 second cooldown(note staff lights count as magic attacks and have range).... Also that is 13k tooltip without malacath...... Just saying it seem very similar to something we had before
I actually agree with the sentiments expressed in the original post. +1 for that group of people, silent majority or otherwise. At the same time I believe that build patterns from Else's (FrankonPCs) video look like a problem and the patch needs tweaks, for example to Malacath.Lol you always know someone's full of *** when they claim to be speaking for the "silent majority".
Entire basis of your argument is "it's new and refreshing", for you.
Doesn't mean it's healthy for the game. No new players wants to go into PvP, get instantly hit by 3 proc sets and die in a second.
Stat-based builds at least require the user to do something, and the new player will see his enemy doing animations and skills.
Die to 3x Dizzy swing you can assess and learn to block, dodge or kite. Die to one light attack and 3x proc sets, what you gonna do about that.
exiledtyrant wrote: »exiledtyrant wrote: »exiledtyrant wrote: »... but it doesn't make Proc sets the villain.
did you watch the video linked in here by chance? I didn't have to time procs, I didn't have to care about 2-4 pc bonuses. I didn't care about the opportunity cost of stat based sets. I casted elemental drain and fetcher infection, then i light attacked over and over again until i killed a good player on an open world build. If you didn't see it, you should. That's what you're defending.
What I saw was a build more set up for 1 v 1 dueling go against a setup that looks to have given up pressure and 1v1 power for more survivability. Even more so it seems the person entering the duel didn't prepare to the same degree that you did. Were they cleansing? That's a purge that anyone can use and one morph would have even gave them 15% health while shutting you off your sets for 10 seconds.
I noticed the netch but 1 debuff per 5 second is getting nowhere when you can wipe 3 instantly. Did they try to adapt their gear pieces at all or did they just stick to their tried and true build without adapting? Duelist stack the deck in their favor as much as possible for 1 v1, and while I may have never liked dueling I can appreciate the ingenuity that goes into it.
All in all I saw 2 builds with fairly long time to kill do what was expected which is a single target sustain build eventually running down a tankier 1vX build. Then there's the matter of deciding if duels in general are any decent measure of balance when group PvP is the measuring stick for ESO. I didn't see a time to kill so extreme that it needed to be nerfed especially when it was not being actively countered or put up to strain against group support.
It's not a dueling setup. I explain that in the video. There is no open world pvp on the pts.
If you don't feel a build built around single target damage and high self healing isn't a duel setup or at least 1 v 1 oriented I won't argue semantics. There being no world PvP on PTS also doesn't remove my point that duels are not what determines balance in ESO PvP or otherwise. I saw nothing in that video that gave me the impression that their was an egregious time to kill or sustain issue due to proc sets. I did see two people take a very long time to try and kill each other, which would have given either of you enough time to escape or regroup in normal circumstances outside of being stuck inside a duel.
The time to kill aspect of this kind of misses the point and is the point. An open world PVP build couldn't do enough damage to kill this Proc build over that entire time. And any damage done was pretty much immediately healed. And on the other end of the spectrum, a proc build wore down an open world build with minimal effort. He didn't have to use more than like 2 offensive skills and light attacks during the fight. Even adding in 1 or 2 more offensive skills is going to speed up this fight immensely because the non proc build is already struggling to compete against 2 skills and light attacks.
The problem is, he wasn't even really trying with that proc build. Actually trying that build is just going to delete people. It is insanely over-tuned. Either procs need to be brought down a bit now that they mostly have no proc chance any more, or they need to scale properly, so that when running zero stats they don't do nearly as much damage as they would if you built for damage.
I actually find it frustrating how effective building for stats is, compared to the proc build that I run on my magblade. You want to be an effective open world stam DK? Better build for maximum weapon damage, so you get maximum heals and leaps. You want to be an effective magicka anything? Building for maximum magicka not only gives you damage, it gives you decent shields. You approach 50K magicka or more, it markedly improves your effectiveness as a warden or sorc ... or a stand-up magblade, if you choose to go that way.3) They don't require that you invest certain stats into your character. Someone with 15,000 magicka is going to do the same damage with Caluurion's Legacy as someone with 40,000.
exiledtyrant wrote: »
If you don't feel a build built around single target damage and high self healing isn't a duel setup or at least 1 v 1 oriented I won't argue semantics. There being no world PvP on PTS also doesn't remove my point that duels are not what determines balance in ESO PvP or otherwise. I saw nothing in that video that gave me the impression that their was an egregious time to kill or sustain issue due to proc sets. I did see two people take a very long time to try and kill each other, which would have given either of you enough time to escape or regroup in normal circumstances outside of being stuck inside a duel.
StamPlar_1976 wrote: »
Pretty much. I didn't see anything overpowering in the vid. If he had slaughtered dude in seconds consecutively, he would have had a point. But all I saw was two people dueling where the advantage kept changing between the two in a drawn out fight. Looks balanced to me. I don't see the problem with a proc build if the fights are still long and drawn out like his demonstration was.
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »Dueling is pointless because it doesn't prove anything besides testing people's builds and egos. Dueling specific builds are especially toxic to duel against since those builds usually suck in all other forms of pvp. I do consider your 3 proc build from the video a "proc dueling build". It's of my opinion that proc builds should be competitive in duels and all forms of pvp, and that stat builds shouldn't be clearly superior. I should be able to choose a variety of sets and enjoy the game, while still being competitive.
sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »Dueling is pointless because it doesn't prove anything besides testing people's builds and egos. Dueling specific builds are especially toxic to duel against since those builds usually suck in all other forms of pvp. I do consider your 3 proc build from the video a "proc dueling build". It's of my opinion that proc builds should be competitive in duels and all forms of pvp, and that stat builds shouldn't be clearly superior. I should be able to choose a variety of sets and enjoy the game, while still being competitive.
Me offering to fight people on a proc magden isn't about ego. I'm not a good magicka warden. I'm also not using skills or abilities outside of a debuff, light attacks and one dot.
My point is that I am offering to run this setup vs any spec in the game to show that I can provide a large amount of pressure without doing anything else. I should not be able to compete with meta open world builds, battleground builds or dueling builds by just light attacking, but I think I'll be able to.
I think people can and will beat me, or we will draw...but the point is I don't think I should provide the pressure I provide with the effort I take to do it. Winning or losing doesn't matter, it's just trying to show how strong procs are.
We can also go into open world on the pts. Bring a few people and let's get some open world tests going.
@FrankonPC When is your stream on PTS? I want to see if there are any takers
JayKwellen wrote: »@FrankonPC When is your stream on PTS? I want to see if there are any takers
@technohic His twitch stream is Isth3reno1else. Unfortunately you'll probably be disappointed, as I can pretty much guarantee none of the procopalypse defenders will show up.
xWhat was so devastating about Viper is that it procced reliably and suited every stam build. It was also an instant proc and it could be combined with another instant proc, Tremorscale. Things have changed. All proc sets have a one second activation delay and Caluurion has a very slow travel time thereafter. Furthermore the only class that can currently control the set's activation is magblade, by using Shadowy Disguise. I'd go so far as to say Caluurion was a bone thrown to a weak class. At the very least it is less controllable on other classes.SshadowSscale wrote: »Pre vipers sting change: 8k damage on melee attack every 4 seconds(note can proc off melee light attacks)
New caluurions: 13k damage on magic attack with 10 second cooldown(note staff lights count as magic attacks and have range).... Also that is 13k tooltip without malacath...... Just saying it seem very similar to something we had before