LadyNalcarya wrote: »I think that we need 2 separate queues: premades and solo. This way solo players wont have to face premades, and premades will have a fair challenge.
The third team is and always will be the problem, not premades. Three teams exacerbates every single possible issue with matchmaking to a much greater extent than two because the most skilled team always has the potential advantage of using a third team to turn every pvp situation into a numbers advantage for them.
This is not going to bring players back or encourage people to queue more. Players don't queue for BGs because they aren't fun, not because they lose to premades. Most people don't care if they lose if they have fun. Most players don't have fun getting rear-ended while in an even fight. I've never, ever seen any MMO outright ban all premades, even duos. This is a first, and the major difference here between ESO and every other MMO is the third team. Three teams leads to messy, directionless, disorganized matches where you're either outnumbered, outnumbering your opponents, or ignoring pvp altogether to do objectives while the other two teams pvp. None of these scenarios have any sort of direct appeal to players.
Winning doesn't feel good, because you probably did it by taking advantage of superior numbers by rear-ending another team, stealing kills, or standing on a flag while everyone else did some pvp. Losing especially doesn't feel good because you often lose when people steal your kills, or when you decide to pvp, which you're penalized for because the third team is then allowed to take objectives without any sort of confrontation. It sucks and it isn't fun. You don't ever win by directly engaging in pvp, you win by waiting to jump someone about to die, or avoiding pvp as much as you possibly can.
No matter what balance changes or changes to queueing are made, the third team will always make BGs a miserable gameplay experience for just about everyone involved. Scrap the whole system and just copy WoW or Rift and implement normal 8v8 BGs with bigger maps and no deathmatch. Make the max premade group size 4, match premade groups up against premade groups with pugs on both sides, and you'll finally have (mostly) balanced, fun pvp."Pre-mades vs pugs" is all on the pugs. Entirely on them. There is *nothing* stopping you from going and getting three other people and forming a pre-made yourself, except just plain not being willing to go to the effort. People shouldn't expect standards to be lowered to accommodate their own lack of motivation. This is just "we want everything to be free and easy" with a different mask on.
ESO would be the outlier here, since basically every game in existence doesn't allow you to form a full premade and queue up against pugs. Why? Because while people don't mind losing half the time (as is the outcome of most matchmaking systems), they do mind not having a chance to win at all. Implementing the requirement that you get three of your friends in voice chat to have any chance of enjoying an instanced match is the quickest way to make sure just about everyone stops queueing for those matches. People who want to pvp in an organized premade are 1% of the player base. The players you think want everything to be "free and easy" are the other 99%, and they're the ones who make the game possible in the first place.
I think if you really must have a solo queue system then you should also accept duo's into said system, after all that way people can still group with a single friend or there partner and not feel pushed out.
I honestly don't see duo's being a over dominating thing, however if duo's are forced to only fight 4 player premades I can see that being very unbalanced too.
I think allowing duo's into the singles system would work as a much better then forcing everyone to separate from their friends.
Basically max pre groups would be a max of two players.
I feel an appropriate way to handle this would be to have a single queue (as we have now), but premades are only matched against premades. This will obviously result in long queue times for premade groups, however, this could be alleviated by allowing premades to match with solo players after x (say 10-15) minutes.
If a premade is matched against solo players, MMR could be unaffected for that match to maintain the integrity of MMR.
This will eliminate the need for separate queues, while still allowing players to play how they want without greatly increasing queue times, and reducing the number of matches in which solo players are matched against premades.
I feel an appropriate way to handle this would be to have a single queue (as we have now), but premades are only matched against premades. This will obviously result in long queue times for premade groups, however, this could be alleviated by allowing premades to match with solo players after x (say 10-15) minutes.
If a premade is matched against solo players, MMR could be unaffected for that match to maintain the integrity of MMR.
This will eliminate the need for separate queues, while still allowing players to play how they want without greatly increasing queue times, and reducing the number of matches in which solo players are matched against premades.
Olupajmibanan wrote: »
The problem that has been brought here multiple times is that in case of group queue, duo players shouldn't be matched against premades either. Having two pairs against full 4-premade is the same crush stomp like 4 solos against full 4-premade.
Olupajmibanan wrote: »I think if you really must have a solo queue system then you should also accept duo's into said system, after all that way people can still group with a single friend or there partner and not feel pushed out.
I honestly don't see duo's being a over dominating thing, however if duo's are forced to only fight 4 player premades I can see that being very unbalanced too.
I think allowing duo's into the singles system would work as a much better then forcing everyone to separate from their friends.
Basically max pre groups would be a max of two players.
Exactly. But a restriction must be added to only have 1 pair in a team at a time. So the only two types of teams would appear in BGs - 4 solos team and a Pair + 2 solos team. 4 solos against two pairs is a little unfair, but 4 solos agains one pair and 2 solos isn't any of a deal.
The goal of Battlegrounds should be to have a separate solo and group queue. However, I do think only having a solo queue for one update will give the developers a better insight into the matchmaking system and how queueing works if it doesn't have to include groups. My hopes is that it will speed up the queueing times and give better overall MMR.
Nothing is more annoying then having to wait 10-20 minutes for a battleground to start, most people will simply just turn around and go play something else, me included. So while it might upset people that want to play together, I really hope that most people will consider playing so the devs can get some good insight into the data that will be gathered.
phoenixkungfu wrote: »First I want to say the solo q change to bgs is THE GREATEST CHANGE IN ESO HISTORY!!!!!!!!!!! I love the direction of being fearless as a developer and reverting something that is not working. This shows me you care as a development team. I LOVE THIS DIRECTION. I HAVE TO SAY IM GLAD TO SEE YOUR TRYING. IT MEANS ALOT. THANK YOU ESO.
now with that out the way, I'm a 5 to 4 year hardcore player. My first year of playing was all about the pve dungeon. I love them. Until they got boring and I hit max level. At this time there was nothing to do while waiting no duel, no different colors..nothing. then bgs came out omg it was the best thing ever. I love it. You could just q and have fun. Its was THE BEST PVP EXPERIENCE I EVER HAD IN ANY MMO OR VIDEO GAME. I LOVE IT. There was no hidden rank system. Q was lightning fast it was the best thing ever. Then about a year later. Here comes rank omg now bgs turned into A TRI HARD FEST...omg I somehow felt punish for being good. It was THE WORST FEELING EVER PLAYING A VIDEO GAME. This without a doubt was the beginning point of me becoming TOXIC AS A PLAYER. It honestly felt like I WAS BEING SET UP TO LOSE. Especially after a 30min q. I now see why I felt betrayed. It was because I felt there was a place for solo players who wanted to do group active without all the politics in eso. BECAUSE of this I invested my time into game. In pve when you q for a dungeon THAT SOLO Q which is a place for a player like myself. Pug for pve dungeon is amazing. So when I got that pug group gameplay feeling with bgs. it felt good to just play without all of the politics of today. Bgs was best like this. It was best when you could just q and play. Unfortunately, now that topics of pre mades and hidden rank systems has come up. It is what it is, you cant just reset and just make it about just having fun. So my recommendation is 1 I GAVE IN MY ORIGINAL POST. Do a time period of solo q. Stick with your original plan eso. Then after a patch or so look at population. If population on average can support it give a group q. Also I think it's not cool that you basically took my post. I have 3.3 veiws and counting. It's hard to get a good topic going. Clearly you like my post. Or as I call it swag. So I deserve a dev like. Thank you in advance
The goal of Battlegrounds should be to have a separate solo and group queue. However, I do think only having a solo queue for one update will give the developers a better insight into the matchmaking system and how queueing works if it doesn't have to include groups. My hopes is that it will speed up the queueing times and give better overall MMR.
Nothing is more annoying then having to wait 10-20 minutes for a battleground to start, most people will simply just turn around and go play something else, me included. So while it might upset people that want to play together, I really hope that most people will consider playing so the devs can get some good insight into the data that will be gathered.
The goal of Battlegrounds should be to have a separate solo and group queue. However, I do think only having a solo queue for one update will give the developers a better insight into the matchmaking system and how queueing works if it doesn't have to include groups. My hopes is that it will speed up the queueing times and give better overall MMR.
Nothing is more annoying then having to wait 10-20 minutes for a battleground to start, most people will simply just turn around and go play something else, me included. So while it might upset people that want to play together, I really hope that most people will consider playing so the devs can get some good insight into the data that will be gathered.
"Pre-mades vs pugs" is all on the pugs. Entirely on them. There is *nothing* stopping you from going and getting three other people and forming a pre-made yourself, except just plain not being willing to go to the effort. People shouldn't expect standards to be lowered to accommodate their own lack of motivation. This is just "we want everything to be free and easy" with a different mask on.
ESO would be the outlier here, since basically every game in existence doesn't allow you to form a full premade and queue up against pugs. Why? Because while people don't mind losing half the time (as is the outcome of most matchmaking systems), they do mind not having a chance to win at all. Implementing the requirement that you get three of your friends in voice chat to have any chance of enjoying an instanced match is the quickest way to make sure just about everyone stops queueing for those matches. People who want to pvp in an organized premade are 1% of the player base. The players you think want everything to be "free and easy" are the other 99%, and they're the ones who make the game possible in the first place.
"Pre-mades vs pugs" is all on the pugs. Entirely on them. There is *nothing* stopping you from going and getting three other people and forming a pre-made yourself, except just plain not being willing to go to the effort. People shouldn't expect standards to be lowered to accommodate their own lack of motivation. This is just "we want everything to be free and easy" with a different mask on.
ESO would be the outlier here, since basically every game in existence doesn't allow you to form a full premade and queue up against pugs. Why? Because while people don't mind losing half the time (as is the outcome of most matchmaking systems), they do mind not having a chance to win at all. Implementing the requirement that you get three of your friends in voice chat to have any chance of enjoying an instanced match is the quickest way to make sure just about everyone stops queueing for those matches. People who want to pvp in an organized premade are 1% of the player base. The players you think want everything to be "free and easy" are the other 99%, and they're the ones who make the game possible in the first place.
The issue is this doesn't just impact people that are in organized voice chat groups with optimized builds etc. It also impacts random friends queuing. Thats why most games that have separate group queues do allow duos in the smaller queue.
There are games that have just one random queue that premades and soloers both are in, but a better system is both a 4 person group and solo/duo queue.
All that said I agree 4v4v4 makes this worse. Teams are hard to balance there,. They should implement some maps that ate 8v8, or maybe 4v4, for testing. Hell, they could do it on the pts to gather data...
Woodoochill wrote: »The third team is and always will be the problem, not premades. Three teams exacerbates every single possible issue with matchmaking to a much greater extent than two because the most skilled team always has the potential advantage of using a third team to turn every pvp situation into a numbers advantage for them.
This is not going to bring players back or encourage people to queue more. Players don't queue for BGs because they aren't fun, not because they lose to premades. Most people don't care if they lose if they have fun. Most players don't have fun getting rear-ended while in an even fight. I've never, ever seen any MMO outright ban all premades, even duos. This is a first, and the major difference here between ESO and every other MMO is the third team. Three teams leads to messy, directionless, disorganized matches where you're either outnumbered, outnumbering your opponents, or ignoring pvp altogether to do objectives while the other two teams pvp. None of these scenarios have any sort of direct appeal to players.
Winning doesn't feel good, because you probably did it by taking advantage of superior numbers by rear-ending another team, stealing kills, or standing on a flag while everyone else did some pvp. Losing especially doesn't feel good because you often lose when people steal your kills, or when you decide to pvp, which you're penalized for because the third team is then allowed to take objectives without any sort of confrontation. It sucks and it isn't fun. You don't ever win by directly engaging in pvp, you win by waiting to jump someone about to die, or avoiding pvp as much as you possibly can.
No matter what balance changes or changes to queueing are made, the third team will always make BGs a miserable gameplay experience for just about everyone involved. Scrap the whole system and just copy WoW or Rift and implement normal 8v8 BGs with bigger maps and no deathmatch. Make the max premade group size 4, match premade groups up against premade groups with pugs on both sides, and you'll finally have (mostly) balanced, fun pvp."Pre-mades vs pugs" is all on the pugs. Entirely on them. There is *nothing* stopping you from going and getting three other people and forming a pre-made yourself, except just plain not being willing to go to the effort. People shouldn't expect standards to be lowered to accommodate their own lack of motivation. This is just "we want everything to be free and easy" with a different mask on.
ESO would be the outlier here, since basically every game in existence doesn't allow you to form a full premade and queue up against pugs. Why? Because while people don't mind losing half the time (as is the outcome of most matchmaking systems), they do mind not having a chance to win at all. Implementing the requirement that you get three of your friends in voice chat to have any chance of enjoying an instanced match is the quickest way to make sure just about everyone stops queueing for those matches. People who want to pvp in an organized premade are 1% of the player base. The players you think want everything to be "free and easy" are the other 99%, and they're the ones who make the game possible in the first place.
Of course when you rush in to 8 players you die. This 3 team is about using your brain just as your hand to press keys. If you overextend, you die, If you hide and wait, you will lose for being uneffective. This 3 team fights are like deadly tango, you move forward, other team moves back, 3rd team moves sideways, to later attack your back so you change your focus to them, then 2nd team moves forward pushing you back and turning 3rd team to them... This is not some coded PVE where you can turn your brain off. If you personaly die to situations like you described than its bad news for you - lack of positional awareness and lack of planning.
When you keep being attacked from both sides you and only you is the cause of such situations since it can be prevented in almost any cases.
And it also fullfills the initial trailer of 3 aliance heros waiting for other 2 to make the first move so they can exploit it.