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PTS Update 25 - Feedback Thread for Battlegrounds Solo Queuing

  • MotokoHutt
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    I really really really really really hope this doesn't go live. Frankly I don't care if it will "improve the speed of matchmaking" people can gosh darn wait patiantly and stop being insta gratification kid's. I ONLY play Battlegrounds with my partner in real life, and we enjoy Battlegrounds because we personally don't have good enough PC's to run Cyrodiil at a competative level, now to be forced to queue solo and possibly even forced to fight against one another on oposite team's is absurd. Frankly me and my partner have come to the conclusion that if this change go's live, we will not be doing any Battlegrounds at all for the foreseeable future and we personally feel robbed of an activity we do for several hour's a day cus we enjoy it so much.

    And for all those who say "oh thank god now I won't get stomped by premades" well frankly if ZoS's matchmaking rating system actually worked you wouldn't anyway, the entire point in the system was to stop premades and venetran PvP'ers from stomping newer or more casual player's in the first place. So don't blame the premades, blame ZoS's incompetent MMR system. Frankly even if me and my partner odly got put against a premade 4 man team using tactic's, we still fought out asses off and used gorrilla tactics and sneaky strats to attempt to win. In one case it actually worked, on a chaosball match on Ald Carac our 2 team mates quit the BG and Purple and Orange team kept fighting to get the chaosball and Orange where dominating due to there cordination, me and my partner kept using stealth potions to sneakily grab the ball and kite around objects, once we got close to dieing we would roll off the edge of the map and the other one of us would rush to the center to grab the ball as it reset's, we actually ended up witha super close victory that match with some luck with the purple team not targetting us all that much.
    PC EU
  • LadyNalcarya
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    I think that we need 2 separate queues: premades and solo. This way solo players wont have to face premades, and premades will have a fair challenge.
    Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Divayth Fyr's Coadjutor | Voice of Reason

    PC/EU
  • Olupajmibanan
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    I think that we need 2 separate queues: premades and solo. This way solo players wont have to face premades, and premades will have a fair challenge.

    I would not call a 2+2/4/4 match or a 2+2/2+2/4 match a fair challenge at all. It's the exactly same case as 4 solos fighting full 4-premade. Duos should never be in the same match as full 4-premade.

    And actualy, 4-premades are the reason for all of this madness, but it's duos who is being hurt the most. A war between solo players and 4-premades, but it's duos who is going to suffer.
    Edited by Olupajmibanan on January 22, 2020 11:07AM
  • SodanTok
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    Don't know what sort of feedback ZoS is looking for but as someone that played BG exclusively in 2 rarely in group of 3 (since Morrowind release btw), neither I nor my usual 2nd nor any of the ~20 people that I know that joined me as 3rd in recent year will participate in BGs as long as there is just solo queue and very possibly wont even if group queue is introduced if there is very steep increase in amount of matches against organized 4 man groups which is very much possible if every solo player hides in solo queue.

    Only way I see myself or anyone I know return is if old queue is reinstated or current solo queue incorporates at least duo groups to join too.
    Edited by SodanTok on January 22, 2020 11:15AM
    PC | EU | AD
  • relentless_turnip
    relentless_turnip
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    I am really excited to queue solo. I do at least one BG every time I log in normally more and when i am getting hit by 3 coordinated ultimates at the same time it can feel pretty hopeless. That said I have in past done BG's with guild mates etc... and totally understand why everyone is so upset.

    In terms of implementing two separate queues that would obviously be ideal.
    I can see where ZOS are coming from in terms of a player essentially having to have separate MMR rankings for each queue.
    One of these rankings would be based on your performance whilst in a team.

    This would also mean that the group finder would now be hosting another lobby. Since they have only just managed to get the current group finder to operate consistently this is a dangerous move. Though the traffic to the group finder should be near enough the same the separate calculations are probably where the issues will be.

    I am really looking forward to playing solo and having more meaningful solo interactions.
    In the meantime i hope they are able to figure out a way to make queuing system that suits everyone.
    "It is not over performing... you are under performing!"
    "I heard the bugs got a buff this patch?"
  • The Uninvited
    The Uninvited
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    I'll just roll my 2 comments from the closed topic into one:

    I don't like it. BG's are what got my wife and me into PVP, both coming from games like Unreal Tournament. We like playing together, no matter who the other two group members are.

    Now, there's a chance we are on opposing teams and have to fight each other. On the other hand, we could now of course easily pass a relic or chaos ball to each other as well. Hmmm...

    There's also 1 other thing people seem to forget about. The people previously playing in premades, will now likely be in one of your teams. Prepare for group chat becoming less friendly and more like "oh look, it's the noobs again" toxic rants.

    Also, know that every player will now have to solo queue on a tanky, self-healing dps build. Or would you like to be teamed up together with 4 healers for example? Oops, bet they didn't think of that...
    Pandora's Promise (rip) | LND | Pactriotic | IKnowWhatUDidLastWinter's | The Uninvited |

    Ride the paranoia | All life is pain | Only the grave is real
  • NaomiHutt
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    I think if you really must have a solo queue system then you should also accept duo's into said system, after all that way people can still group with a single friend or there partner and not feel pushed out.

    I honestly don't see duo's being a over dominating thing, however if duo's are forced to only fight 4 player premades I can see that being very unbalanced too.

    I think allowing duo's into the singles system would work as a much better then forcing everyone to separate from their friends.

    Basically max pre groups would be a max of two players.
    Edited by NaomiHutt on January 22, 2020 11:35AM
  • Woodoochill
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    ecru wrote: »
    The third team is and always will be the problem, not premades. Three teams exacerbates every single possible issue with matchmaking to a much greater extent than two because the most skilled team always has the potential advantage of using a third team to turn every pvp situation into a numbers advantage for them.

    This is not going to bring players back or encourage people to queue more. Players don't queue for BGs because they aren't fun, not because they lose to premades. Most people don't care if they lose if they have fun. Most players don't have fun getting rear-ended while in an even fight. I've never, ever seen any MMO outright ban all premades, even duos. This is a first, and the major difference here between ESO and every other MMO is the third team. Three teams leads to messy, directionless, disorganized matches where you're either outnumbered, outnumbering your opponents, or ignoring pvp altogether to do objectives while the other two teams pvp. None of these scenarios have any sort of direct appeal to players.

    Winning doesn't feel good, because you probably did it by taking advantage of superior numbers by rear-ending another team, stealing kills, or standing on a flag while everyone else did some pvp. Losing especially doesn't feel good because you often lose when people steal your kills, or when you decide to pvp, which you're penalized for because the third team is then allowed to take objectives without any sort of confrontation. It sucks and it isn't fun. You don't ever win by directly engaging in pvp, you win by waiting to jump someone about to die, or avoiding pvp as much as you possibly can.

    No matter what balance changes or changes to queueing are made, the third team will always make BGs a miserable gameplay experience for just about everyone involved. Scrap the whole system and just copy WoW or Rift and implement normal 8v8 BGs with bigger maps and no deathmatch. Make the max premade group size 4, match premade groups up against premade groups with pugs on both sides, and you'll finally have (mostly) balanced, fun pvp.
    Minyassa wrote: »
    "Pre-mades vs pugs" is all on the pugs. Entirely on them. There is *nothing* stopping you from going and getting three other people and forming a pre-made yourself, except just plain not being willing to go to the effort. People shouldn't expect standards to be lowered to accommodate their own lack of motivation. This is just "we want everything to be free and easy" with a different mask on.

    ESO would be the outlier here, since basically every game in existence doesn't allow you to form a full premade and queue up against pugs. Why? Because while people don't mind losing half the time (as is the outcome of most matchmaking systems), they do mind not having a chance to win at all. Implementing the requirement that you get three of your friends in voice chat to have any chance of enjoying an instanced match is the quickest way to make sure just about everyone stops queueing for those matches. People who want to pvp in an organized premade are 1% of the player base. The players you think want everything to be "free and easy" are the other 99%, and they're the ones who make the game possible in the first place.

    Of course when you rush in to 8 players you die. This 3 team is about using your brain just as your hand to press keys. If you overextend, you die, If you hide and wait, you will lose for being uneffective. This 3 team fights are like deadly tango, you move forward, other team moves back, 3rd team moves sideways, to later attack your back so you change your focus to them, then 2nd team moves forward pushing you back and turning 3rd team to them... This is not some coded PVE where you can turn your brain off. If you personaly die to situations like you described than its bad news for you - lack of positional awareness and lack of planning.

    When you keep being attacked from both sides you and only you is the cause of such situations since it can be prevented in almost any cases.

    And it also fullfills the initial trailer of 3 aliance heros waiting for other 2 to make the first move so they can exploit it.
    Edited by Woodoochill on January 22, 2020 11:54AM
  • Olupajmibanan
    Olupajmibanan
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    NaomiHutt wrote: »
    I think if you really must have a solo queue system then you should also accept duo's into said system, after all that way people can still group with a single friend or there partner and not feel pushed out.

    I honestly don't see duo's being a over dominating thing, however if duo's are forced to only fight 4 player premades I can see that being very unbalanced too.

    I think allowing duo's into the singles system would work as a much better then forcing everyone to separate from their friends.

    Basically max pre groups would be a max of two players.

    Exactly. But a restriction must be added to only have 1 pair in a team at a time. So the only two types of teams would appear in BGs - 4 solos team and a Pair + 2 solos team. 4 solos against two pairs is a little unfair, but 4 solos agains one pair and 2 solos isn't any of a deal.
    Edited by Olupajmibanan on January 22, 2020 11:52AM
  • Moon449
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    I feel an appropriate way to handle this would be to have a single queue (as we have now), but premades are only matched against premades. This will obviously result in long queue times for premade groups, however, this could be alleviated by allowing premades to match with solo players after x (say 10-15) minutes.

    If a premade is matched against solo players, MMR could be unaffected for that match to maintain the integrity of MMR.

    This will eliminate the need for separate queues, while still allowing players to play how they want without greatly increasing queue times, and reducing the number of matches in which solo players are matched against premades.
  • relentless_turnip
    relentless_turnip
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    Moon449 wrote: »
    I feel an appropriate way to handle this would be to have a single queue (as we have now), but premades are only matched against premades. This will obviously result in long queue times for premade groups, however, this could be alleviated by allowing premades to match with solo players after x (say 10-15) minutes.

    If a premade is matched against solo players, MMR could be unaffected for that match to maintain the integrity of MMR.

    This will eliminate the need for separate queues, while still allowing players to play how they want without greatly increasing queue times, and reducing the number of matches in which solo players are matched against premades.

    You would simply need a solo queue and a group queue. You don't need to dictate numbers just more than one person to queue in the group queue. The group finder would determine whether to place in solo queue or group queue... And place you with preformed groups or solo queuers 😬👍
    "It is not over performing... you are under performing!"
    "I heard the bugs got a buff this patch?"
  • Olupajmibanan
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    Moon449 wrote: »
    I feel an appropriate way to handle this would be to have a single queue (as we have now), but premades are only matched against premades. This will obviously result in long queue times for premade groups, however, this could be alleviated by allowing premades to match with solo players after x (say 10-15) minutes.

    If a premade is matched against solo players, MMR could be unaffected for that match to maintain the integrity of MMR.

    This will eliminate the need for separate queues, while still allowing players to play how they want without greatly increasing queue times, and reducing the number of matches in which solo players are matched against premades.

    The problem that has been brought here multiple times is that in case of group queue, duo players shouldn't be matched against premades either. Having two pairs against full 4-premade is the same crush stomp like 4 solos against full 4-premade.
    Edited by Olupajmibanan on January 22, 2020 12:05PM
  • Nevasca
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    Learn from games like LoL, Dota and Overwatch. Let people duo queue at least.

    Yes, teams will not be 100% balanced. Who cares. A very small player base wants to be competitive in BGs, most just want to have fun. Allowing duo queue is the best compromise IMO.
    Edited by Nevasca on January 22, 2020 12:08PM
  • Moon449
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    The problem that has been brought here multiple times is that in case of group queue, duo players shouldn't be matched against premades either. Having two pairs against full 4-premade is the same crush stomp like 4 solos against full 4-premade.

    Well that can be handled by treating duo groups the same way as full 4 mans and trying to only match them against other duo groups for x minutes, or treating them as solo players and disabling MMR in a match if they end up getting matched with a 4 man premade.
  • NaomiHutt
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    NaomiHutt wrote: »
    I think if you really must have a solo queue system then you should also accept duo's into said system, after all that way people can still group with a single friend or there partner and not feel pushed out.

    I honestly don't see duo's being a over dominating thing, however if duo's are forced to only fight 4 player premades I can see that being very unbalanced too.

    I think allowing duo's into the singles system would work as a much better then forcing everyone to separate from their friends.

    Basically max pre groups would be a max of two players.

    Exactly. But a restriction must be added to only have 1 pair in a team at a time. So the only two types of teams would appear in BGs - 4 solos team and a Pair + 2 solos team. 4 solos against two pairs is a little unfair, but 4 solos agains one pair and 2 solos isn't any of a deal.

    I would be happy with that, I got this game so I could play along side with my partner, we do quests together, we do dungeons together and guess what, you guessed it, we do PvP together, because our PCs are getting on a bit we struggle with frame rate in places like cyrodiil, so battlegrounds are our go to, we both really enjoy the team work involved and we both really enjoy the different game modes, something that you can't get from going to cyrodiil or imperial city.

    We are not asking for much we are just asking to be able to group as a duo.
  • peacenote
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    Alcast wrote: »
    The goal of Battlegrounds should be to have a separate solo and group queue. However, I do think only having a solo queue for one update will give the developers a better insight into the matchmaking system and how queueing works if it doesn't have to include groups. My hopes is that it will speed up the queueing times and give better overall MMR.

    Nothing is more annoying then having to wait 10-20 minutes for a battleground to start, most people will simply just turn around and go play something else, me included. So while it might upset people that want to play together, I really hope that most people will consider playing so the devs can get some good insight into the data that will be gathered.

    I do respectfully disagree with the fact that having to wait is the most annoying thing. I spend lots of time waiting in this game, be it for a BG or Group Finder, or for a Trial to fill up, or for a DC'd friend to come back online, and the main reason to wait is for other people. I use that time to organize my inventory, sell items, grab skill points, farm, fish, research builds online... whatever. My personal experience with the current BG system is that I've never been forced to wait beyond what I'd consider acceptable, and the queue frequently pops quickly. But, even if queue time needs to be improved, I absolutely feel that the most annoying thing in ESO is not easily being able to play with your friends. This is why I thought One Tamriel was great, and why I believe faction change should have been introduced with faction lock. Even DB sacraments and TG heists allow you to bring friends along! I would not ever purposefully trade the loss of queuing with my friends for a faster queue. Nor would I ever suggest that people who like to queue solo shouldn't be allowed to do so just because I prefer to queue as a group.

    The issue here (besides the fact that I'm just not going to queue solo when I have friends online that are interested in playing the game WITH me for the purpose of data gathering) is communication. Usually an "experiment" can succeed or fail, and if it "succeeds" the idea would be to move forward with that success. Without more information, the way it's currently worded one can only conclude that the experiment is to determine whether solo-only queue is viable as a long term solution. With the possibility of this "successful experiment" being applied to other queues like dungeon finder and Cyrodiil. I sure don't want to do anything to help make this experiment a success from that perspective! It is the opposite of what I'd want to see happen in ESO, as it would ruin the primary way I experience the game - in fact the very reason I play it - which is to group up with one or two friends in my small guild and do things.

    I'd be significantly more open-minded and understanding if the message was "we're temporarily removing the ability to queue as a group within BG's for a period of time, so we can improve our matchmaking system, with the intent to restore this functionality by Greymoor." But that is not the message that's being given to the community. Instead, it sounds like if this is a "success" (by what criteria we aren't being told) that this is how things will be going forward, period. :'(

    • Problem: People like to group together in BG's and it is causing issues with the matchmaking system.
    • Solution: Remove the ability for people to group together.

    Quite frankly the worst logic I've ever come across for a solution to an in-game problem in any game, ever.


    First I want to say the solo q change to bgs is THE GREATEST CHANGE IN ESO HISTORY!!!!!!!!!!! I love the direction of being fearless as a developer and reverting something that is not working. This shows me you care as a development team. I LOVE THIS DIRECTION. I HAVE TO SAY IM GLAD TO SEE YOUR TRYING. IT MEANS ALOT. THANK YOU ESO.
    now with that out the way, I'm a 5 to 4 year hardcore player. My first year of playing was all about the pve dungeon. I love them. Until they got boring and I hit max level. At this time there was nothing to do while waiting no duel, no different colors..nothing. then bgs came out omg it was the best thing ever. I love it. You could just q and have fun. Its was THE BEST PVP EXPERIENCE I EVER HAD IN ANY MMO OR VIDEO GAME. I LOVE IT. There was no hidden rank system. Q was lightning fast it was the best thing ever. Then about a year later. Here comes rank omg now bgs turned into A TRI HARD FEST...omg I somehow felt punish for being good. It was THE WORST FEELING EVER PLAYING A VIDEO GAME. This without a doubt was the beginning point of me becoming TOXIC AS A PLAYER. It honestly felt like I WAS BEING SET UP TO LOSE. Especially after a 30min q. I now see why I felt betrayed. It was because I felt there was a place for solo players who wanted to do group active without all the politics in eso. BECAUSE of this I invested my time into game. In pve when you q for a dungeon THAT SOLO Q which is a place for a player like myself. Pug for pve dungeon is amazing. So when I got that pug group gameplay feeling with bgs. it felt good to just play without all of the politics of today. Bgs was best like this. It was best when you could just q and play. Unfortunately, now that topics of pre mades and hidden rank systems has come up. It is what it is, you cant just reset and just make it about just having fun. So my recommendation is 1 I GAVE IN MY ORIGINAL POST. Do a time period of solo q. Stick with your original plan eso. Then after a patch or so look at population. If population on average can support it give a group q. Also I think it's not cool that you basically took my post. I have 3.3 veiws and counting. It's hard to get a good topic going. Clearly you like my post. Or as I call it swag. So I deserve a dev like. Thank you in advance

    Also, I have two comments to the above quote, which is long so I put it in spoiler brackets.
    1. It sounds like your issue is with the ranking system, not group queuing. Maybe the solution here is a non-ranked version of BGs, where you gain experience and achievements but nothing particularly special for "climbing the ladder." If you are indeed correct about the root cause of people's complaints. Removing the ability for people to play together won't fix what you're describing. In fact, it could make it worse, as people who are solo queuing for competitive reasons are going to be rude and toxic to team members who are solo queuing for more casual reasons, since the competitive individuals won't necessarily have like-minded teammates.
    2. I enjoy pug for PvE as well but it's not a "solo" queue. Lots of people (myself included) queue up as a duo or trio as a way to fill up the group. The primary differences between dungeon finder and battleground group are a) dungeon finder is a role based system and b) there are no competing "teams" and the queued group of four works against a common enemy of non-variable skill, because they are mobs. Which again makes me think the issue is the rankings in Battlegrounds, at least for the specific issue you are describing.
  • Asys
    Asys
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    Wing wrote: »
    great change.

    just a bunch of pre mades mad they cant stomp pugs.

    This right here o:)
    Facts dont care about your feelings.
  • buzzclops
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    The main problem about battlegrounds is that there is just not enough population and no real reason to play them besides pride... I think a healthy way of fixing this issue would be to revamp the leaderboards and update the rewards or give tokens every few wins or so. Then, you could buy specific items/gear with... kinda like telvars. This would attract more players and then fill up the brackets(low/middle/high mmr). Not all “premades” are filled with pvp gods. Most are beatable it’s just that the gap between players in the games sometimes is just too big because there is no one else to put in these games. I play on ps4 na and I don’t have a problem with premade groups at all but I can see why it can be problematic for others. But going solo queu only is not a solution to this in any way unfortunately. This is an mmo and playing with friends and building strategies together is so much fun when you finally see some action and your theory crafting works! I just think they need to encourage grouping up rather then removing it. Just my 2 cents as a hardcore bg player. Peace!
  • Weesacs
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    Keep solo queues solely for solo players.

    Add another queue for duo's, three and four man premade teams.

    Add incentives to get more premades to sign up e.g. titles, achievements, leaderboards, skins etc.

    Add an option to host custom lobbies so guilds can play custom games with their friends on any map and on any game mode they wish.

    Win / win situation for all 👍
    High Elf Templar
    PS4 - EU - DC
    Over 37,500 Achievements!
  • mav1234
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    Alcast wrote: »
    The goal of Battlegrounds should be to have a separate solo and group queue. However, I do think only having a solo queue for one update will give the developers a better insight into the matchmaking system and how queueing works if it doesn't have to include groups. My hopes is that it will speed up the queueing times and give better overall MMR.

    Nothing is more annoying then having to wait 10-20 minutes for a battleground to start, most people will simply just turn around and go play something else, me included. So while it might upset people that want to play together, I really hope that most people will consider playing so the devs can get some good insight into the data that will be gathered.

    I agree a group queue is a good goal. But I must disagree that this is the right path to go in implementing it.

    First, a full DLC release is months of not being able to play with my friends. That is just crazy to me. This is an MMO, and bgs have existed as a group activity for yesr.
    Plus, as of right now, there is no guarantee it is just a patch cycle where solo only is available as ZOS wont communicate plans. And what happens after that? I get this is 'experimental' but that is different from explicitly temporary. It would be good if ZOS outlined a plan. Will the next patch cycle be ONLY group queue?? Makes sense if this is just data gathering, but that sounds awful for the playerbase too!

    Second... if the goal is a group queue... any data gathered without a group queue will not be applicable when one is implemented, because we don't know how the population will split. Take me for example. I almost always duo. If i become a hardcore soloer next patch and then never queue solo once groups are back... that data isnt as useful as if I could queue for my desired mode. Moreover, implementing both simultaneously seems more likely to bring in more players, as you will get the net positive of a bunch of people returning to BGs that left due to premades, while also keeping both the 'tryhard sweaty' and casual duos with queue options.

    If this goes live as is, and there is no concrete plan communicated, I will assume it is permanent until shown otherwise and won't be returning to BGs as a solo player. After all, the data they gather from me is largely useless in a solo context since I would almost always opt to duo over solo.
  • mav1234
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    ecru wrote: »
    Minyassa wrote: »
    "Pre-mades vs pugs" is all on the pugs. Entirely on them. There is *nothing* stopping you from going and getting three other people and forming a pre-made yourself, except just plain not being willing to go to the effort. People shouldn't expect standards to be lowered to accommodate their own lack of motivation. This is just "we want everything to be free and easy" with a different mask on.

    ESO would be the outlier here, since basically every game in existence doesn't allow you to form a full premade and queue up against pugs. Why? Because while people don't mind losing half the time (as is the outcome of most matchmaking systems), they do mind not having a chance to win at all. Implementing the requirement that you get three of your friends in voice chat to have any chance of enjoying an instanced match is the quickest way to make sure just about everyone stops queueing for those matches. People who want to pvp in an organized premade are 1% of the player base. The players you think want everything to be "free and easy" are the other 99%, and they're the ones who make the game possible in the first place.

    The issue is this doesn't just impact people that are in organized voice chat groups with optimized builds etc. It also impacts random friends queuing. Thats why most games that have separate group queues do allow duos in the smaller queue.

    There are games that have just one random queue that premades and soloers both are in, but a better system is both a 4 person group and solo/duo queue.

    All that said I agree 4v4v4 makes this worse. Teams are hard to balance there,. They should implement some maps that ate 8v8, or maybe 4v4, for testing. Hell, they could do it on the pts to gather data...
    Edited by mav1234 on January 22, 2020 3:32PM
  • Kidgangster101
    Kidgangster101
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    mav1234 wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Minyassa wrote: »
    "Pre-mades vs pugs" is all on the pugs. Entirely on them. There is *nothing* stopping you from going and getting three other people and forming a pre-made yourself, except just plain not being willing to go to the effort. People shouldn't expect standards to be lowered to accommodate their own lack of motivation. This is just "we want everything to be free and easy" with a different mask on.

    ESO would be the outlier here, since basically every game in existence doesn't allow you to form a full premade and queue up against pugs. Why? Because while people don't mind losing half the time (as is the outcome of most matchmaking systems), they do mind not having a chance to win at all. Implementing the requirement that you get three of your friends in voice chat to have any chance of enjoying an instanced match is the quickest way to make sure just about everyone stops queueing for those matches. People who want to pvp in an organized premade are 1% of the player base. The players you think want everything to be "free and easy" are the other 99%, and they're the ones who make the game possible in the first place.

    The issue is this doesn't just impact people that are in organized voice chat groups with optimized builds etc. It also impacts random friends queuing. Thats why most games that have separate group queues do allow duos in the smaller queue.

    There are games that have just one random queue that premades and soloers both are in, but a better system is both a 4 person group and solo/duo queue.

    All that said I agree 4v4v4 makes this worse. Teams are hard to balance there,. They should implement some maps that ate 8v8, or maybe 4v4, for testing. Hell, they could do it on the pts to gather data...

    Yes exactly. They should just ditch 4v4v4 immediately. Then they should put in these game modes.

    1v1 deathmatch (where you can test your own build not knowing what can happen)

    2v2 deathmatch (maybe capture the flag of chaos ball as well) where you can que solo to be paired with random or as a duo.

    4v4 where it can be any group size can que and just be mixed in to all game modes (solo que, duo que, 3 people, or a full premade)

    8v8 where you only allow a group of 4 max to que so it has people you don't normally play with mixed into your team. This mode might be a full group of 4 mixed with a duo and 2 solo to make the 8. Allow all game modes active during this one as well.

    Then have a random daily where if you que for it you can be throw into any mode (reward once per day for winning) so solo players might be 1v1 or duo players might be 2v2 or maybe everyone gets randomed into 8v8.

    That would make everyone happy and the game would get much more competitive.
  • ethuiliel
    ethuiliel
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    I despise premade stomps as much as the next person, but really, the prospect of not being able to queue with my SO anymore is less than thrilling. He's probably gonna stop playing BGs entirely.
    Palatine Arodel the Explorer, Altmer Whipster | *2014, PC-EU
    @nirntrotter, hunting achievements all over Nirn and beyond. | 37k+
  • exeeter702
    exeeter702
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    ecru wrote: »
    The third team is and always will be the problem, not premades. Three teams exacerbates every single possible issue with matchmaking to a much greater extent than two because the most skilled team always has the potential advantage of using a third team to turn every pvp situation into a numbers advantage for them.

    This is not going to bring players back or encourage people to queue more. Players don't queue for BGs because they aren't fun, not because they lose to premades. Most people don't care if they lose if they have fun. Most players don't have fun getting rear-ended while in an even fight. I've never, ever seen any MMO outright ban all premades, even duos. This is a first, and the major difference here between ESO and every other MMO is the third team. Three teams leads to messy, directionless, disorganized matches where you're either outnumbered, outnumbering your opponents, or ignoring pvp altogether to do objectives while the other two teams pvp. None of these scenarios have any sort of direct appeal to players.

    Winning doesn't feel good, because you probably did it by taking advantage of superior numbers by rear-ending another team, stealing kills, or standing on a flag while everyone else did some pvp. Losing especially doesn't feel good because you often lose when people steal your kills, or when you decide to pvp, which you're penalized for because the third team is then allowed to take objectives without any sort of confrontation. It sucks and it isn't fun. You don't ever win by directly engaging in pvp, you win by waiting to jump someone about to die, or avoiding pvp as much as you possibly can.

    No matter what balance changes or changes to queueing are made, the third team will always make BGs a miserable gameplay experience for just about everyone involved. Scrap the whole system and just copy WoW or Rift and implement normal 8v8 BGs with bigger maps and no deathmatch. Make the max premade group size 4, match premade groups up against premade groups with pugs on both sides, and you'll finally have (mostly) balanced, fun pvp.
    Minyassa wrote: »
    "Pre-mades vs pugs" is all on the pugs. Entirely on them. There is *nothing* stopping you from going and getting three other people and forming a pre-made yourself, except just plain not being willing to go to the effort. People shouldn't expect standards to be lowered to accommodate their own lack of motivation. This is just "we want everything to be free and easy" with a different mask on.

    ESO would be the outlier here, since basically every game in existence doesn't allow you to form a full premade and queue up against pugs. Why? Because while people don't mind losing half the time (as is the outcome of most matchmaking systems), they do mind not having a chance to win at all. Implementing the requirement that you get three of your friends in voice chat to have any chance of enjoying an instanced match is the quickest way to make sure just about everyone stops queueing for those matches. People who want to pvp in an organized premade are 1% of the player base. The players you think want everything to be "free and easy" are the other 99%, and they're the ones who make the game possible in the first place.

    Of course when you rush in to 8 players you die. This 3 team is about using your brain just as your hand to press keys. If you overextend, you die, If you hide and wait, you will lose for being uneffective. This 3 team fights are like deadly tango, you move forward, other team moves back, 3rd team moves sideways, to later attack your back so you change your focus to them, then 2nd team moves forward pushing you back and turning 3rd team to them... This is not some coded PVE where you can turn your brain off. If you personaly die to situations like you described than its bad news for you - lack of positional awareness and lack of planning.

    When you keep being attacked from both sides you and only you is the cause of such situations since it can be prevented in almost any cases.

    And it also fullfills the initial trailer of 3 aliance heros waiting for other 2 to make the first move so they can exploit it.

    Yeah no.....
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