PTS Update 25 - Feedback Thread for Battlegrounds Solo Queuing

Gravord

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I think in terms of PvP I think the developers do primarily ignore posts.
I don't really blame them either because most PvP posts are formed from a death recap and someone complaining what killed them is too OP.

I don't think it is right they ignore all posts, but I totally understand how so many valid points, ideas, complaints, buff requests etc... Get diluted in a sea of L2P issues...

Its not topic about skills, sets or even classes. Just general mechanic of battlegrounds. I dont see whats the point of opening such topic by ZOS if they will never look into it or respond here.

mav1234

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Can we get a Dev response in here to explain this change more?

This change will essentially make me and my wife play less when we have little time. If we want arena style play for quick matches we could probably go back to for Honor and ay that more and more.

This change definitely will not be healthy for this game and without words from the devs it is frustrating the players that want to just do a quick pvp match or 2 on a night after work and we don't have enough time to ride a horse around our entire time just to run into a zerg as 2 players.........

not to make you more frustrated, but supposedly players "in the know" have had it "all but confirmed" that this is a temporary change and/or there are group queues coming in later patches...

as far as I am concerned until I see someone from ZOS say that publicly, I don't believe it. I think their silence speaks louder than whatever whispers they make to friends about this; this change clearly COULD be permanent. If it were really only temporary (e.g. to get a test of the mmr system without groups interfering with the system), there is no advantage to holding that back. I still think taking away group queue for any amount of time is a bad move.

Kidgangster101

mav1234 wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Can we get a Dev response in here to explain this change more?

This change will essentially make me and my wife play less when we have little time. If we want arena style play for quick matches we could probably go back to for Honor and ay that more and more.

This change definitely will not be healthy for this game and without words from the devs it is frustrating the players that want to just do a quick pvp match or 2 on a night after work and we don't have enough time to ride a horse around our entire time just to run into a zerg as 2 players.........

not to make you more frustrated, but supposedly players "in the know" have had it "all but confirmed" that this is a temporary change and/or there are group queues coming in later patches...

as far as I am concerned until I see someone from ZOS say that publicly, I don't believe it. I think their silence speaks louder than whatever whispers they make to friends about this; this change clearly COULD be permanent. If it were really only temporary (e.g. to get a test of the mmr system without groups interfering with the system), there is no advantage to holding that back. I still think taking away group queue for any amount of time is a bad move.

Ya I don't think anyone at all would be upset/mad/frustrated if they rolled out a group que and solo que at the same time. But the fact that they did this (also started this topic to get feedback and never look respond in it) is a bad move. Even waiting 3-4 months to add group que back in could be 3-4 months too long to get players that leave to return. Honestly I might not check the forums after I leave to play with my wife on another game (they could drive us away from their game and have us find out we enjoy the next game more and never return) that is not smart business planning.

You already have players that don't play the game saying this is a great change......... But that's the thing they aren't playing the game lol. One guy even said he won't return because nb didn't get buffed lol. So that is me and my wife leaving and the guy you catered to try to get a return from didn't return to the game......... You were hoping to go -1 player there but instead go -2 players because he didn't return. How many more cases like that can you handle? That is 2 players for 2 less subs, 2 players not going to your crown store, 2 active players becoming not active anymore. Now you can multiply that by however many times this exact scenario plays out....... This plan of theirs could totally blow up in their face if everyone just ups and leaves for another game that supports their group play mode just saying.

mikeb16_ESO77

mav1234 wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Can we get a Dev response in here to explain this change more?

This change will essentially make me and my wife play less when we have little time. If we want arena style play for quick matches we could probably go back to for Honor and ay that more and more.

This change definitely will not be healthy for this game and without words from the devs it is frustrating the players that want to just do a quick pvp match or 2 on a night after work and we don't have enough time to ride a horse around our entire time just to run into a zerg as 2 players.........

not to make you more frustrated, but supposedly players "in the know" have had it "all but confirmed" that this is a temporary change and/or there are group queues coming in later patches...

as far as I am concerned until I see someone from ZOS say that publicly, I don't believe it. I think their silence speaks louder than whatever whispers they make to friends about this; this change clearly COULD be permanent. If it were really only temporary (e.g. to get a test of the mmr system without groups interfering with the system), there is no advantage to holding that back. I still think taking away group queue for any amount of time is a bad move.

Even if they would add a group queue or revert the solo only change with Greymoor thats still 3-4 months where they remove an already existing feature and as mentioned above plenty of time for people to find what they are looking for else where. If its even further... Well I think they can expect to lose quite a few players permanently. Whilst it might be a bit of a tinfoil hat theory, spreading rumours of groupplay returning is a smart way to have players stick around while not really having to deliever on said feature.

mav1234

Another set of PTS notes and still no developer feedback on this change.

kalunte

only solo queue is a bit hard to take since it's an MMO game.

create 2 queue type: either solo queue and team queue would be nice.

with an option in solo queue like "Do you agree to join incomplete premade groups" and that's it.

at least we would be able to see what works the best.

just like ppl can choose weither CP or NOCP because of how they feel the game, we would have the choice between playing with potentially organizd ppl or total mess.


and about the idea of introducing a "risk taxe" for wanting to play with a friend on a MMO game.. well.. that's another issue.

kalunte

like always, you do a step in a direction with the idea of making another one right after not to end up jobless..

Just like if you guys cant imagine that there is still work to do even when everything works fine...

mav1234

kalunte wrote: »

like always, you do a step in a direction with the idea of making another one right after not to end up jobless..

Just like if you guys cant imagine that there is still work to do even when everything works fine...

if this is not the end goal, that should be communicated. an experiment suggests it is a test, but that is not the same as temporary. if they decide the test has gone well - by whatever arbitrary measure they decide - we have no idea if group queue will ever be added in.

although I am beginning to think group queue will get re-added for the expansion and used as a selling point, heh.

Gravord

mav1234 wrote: »

Another set of PTS notes and still no developer feedback on this change.

Shows how much they care. Cent even dignify their own feedback topic with any response at all.

mikeb16_ESO77

mav1234 wrote: »

Another set of PTS notes and still no developer feedback on this change.

All we can hope for is a more fleshed out comment from the devs with the final patch notes once it goes live but all hope of being able to play BGs with a partner or friend the upcoming months are pretty much gone...

MicahMahaffey

I'm completely done with Battlegrounds now.

Literally my favorite thing in game. I think im saddened far more than I should be, this is just a game after all. It was just my go too outlet for a PVP fix.

Even though I mostly play solo, losing the occasional times I get to play with a friend or my fiance makes it not worth sticking around for. I will not play in separate matches while we're both sitting next to each other, We got into ESO because its an MMO and MMO's are designed around letting people play with their friends.

It really really saddens be that I literally have to just play a different game now for a huge portion of time I would otherwise have spent in ESO..

This decision was in very poor taste and has really made rethink the long term plan here. Like ESO was an all in one game IMO, I could get every type of gaming experience I wanted from it, now.. I can't.. It's that simple.

This is an MMO and a solo only queue for a group activity is really really strange. Its honestly kinda game breaking for me, which sucks beyond belief. I love ESO..

Schokolade

MicahMahaffey wrote: »

I'm completely done with Battlegrounds now.

Literally my favorite thing in game. I think im saddened far more than I should be, this is just a game after all. It was just my go too outlet for a PVP fix.

Even though I mostly play solo, losing the occasional times I get to play with a friend or my fiance makes it not worth sticking around for. I will not play in separate matches while we're both sitting next to each other, We got into ESO because its an MMO and MMO's are designed around letting people play with their friends.

It really really saddens be that I literally have to just play a different game now for a huge portion of time I would otherwise have spent in ESO..

This decision was in very poor taste and has really made rethink the long term plan here. Like ESO was an all in one game IMO, I could get every type of gaming experience I wanted from it, now.. I can't.. It's that simple.

This is an MMO and a solo only queue for a group activity is really really strange. Its honestly kinda game breaking for me, which sucks beyond belief. I love ESO..

This.

MMO, but you cannot play with your friends/GF.
Nice move, and amazing answer from Zos.

#RIPbtg

Schokolade wrote: »

This is just ridiculous.
Note: many times a group seems a pre made, but it's just a good random group.

Now.
Often I play with my Gf, a sort of pre made of 2, almost never of 3 or 4, so I understand the "frustation" of be wiped from full premade.

BUT all games (MMO) are the same, if you have friends and comunication then you have an advantage.
NOBODY is stopping you from doing that.

It is an Online game for god sake, if I wanna play with friends I should be able to do that.
And not only with Cyro campaign, because are 2 different type of pvp.

TequilaFire wrote: »

It is ridiculous to not be able to group with friends in an MMO.
Create separate queue for solo and team play please.
Or create a solo arena to pacify those who can't coordinate their play.

This.

Gravord

Well, "final pts patch" dropped. Still no answer here. Not sure why we even bothered giving feedback. Nobody in ZOS interested in that clearly.

peacenote

mav1234 wrote: »

Kidgangster101 wrote: »

Can we get a Dev response in here to explain this change more?

This change will essentially make me and my wife play less when we have little time. If we want arena style play for quick matches we could probably go back to for Honor and ay that more and more.

This change definitely will not be healthy for this game and without words from the devs it is frustrating the players that want to just do a quick pvp match or 2 on a night after work and we don't have enough time to ride a horse around our entire time just to run into a zerg as 2 players.........

not to make you more frustrated, but supposedly players "in the know" have had it "all but confirmed" that this is a temporary change and/or there are group queues coming in later patches...

as far as I am concerned until I see someone from ZOS say that publicly, I don't believe it. I think their silence speaks louder than whatever whispers they make to friends about this; this change clearly COULD be permanent. If it were really only temporary (e.g. to get a test of the mmr system without groups interfering with the system), there is no advantage to holding that back. I still think taking away group queue for any amount of time is a bad move.

It is extremely frustrating (though ty for sharing) that this may be just a communication issue. I also agree that a real statement needs to be made for me to believe it.

I am so angry about this (still, weeks later) that I haven't pre-ordered. I have loved this game since beta. This change is actually making me feel ANGRY at ZOS and ESO because of how blatantly our feedback is being ignored. I literally like the game less just thinking about how my friends and I won't be able to queue together in BG's in the near future. It is one thing to be against a balance change but this is removing core functionality which many people specifically purchased to enjoy. To me it is the equivalent of removing group access to housing or dropping group and zone chat. I am not sure what's even worse at this point and what would make me feel less frustrated - to know they never planned this to be permanent and can't be bothered to clarify, or to think that removing group queuing forever is actually still on the table despite all of this feedback.

The only other time I've been anywhere close to this level of frustration is when the massive healing changes were announced and our roles seemed in peril, but even then, Orbs were adjusted based on feedback which at least gave us enough information to know that they were paying attention. The fact that there are people saying it is top priority for them to group with others in content and this is being ignored completely has me really close to giving up on this game. I am seriously concerned that solo queuing for dungeon finder is next if this is dubbed a "success."

Btw, the benefits of this feature, in my opinion, can't be fully illustrated by metrics and data. If you were to analyze the amount of time I spend in this game, and say I spend 5% of that time in BG's via a group queue, that doesn't mean 95% of the time I won't miss it. The fact that it doesn't exist will cause me to do things like a) not log in at all, b) log out faster, c) not participate in PvP because I know that option is now gone and the other options aren't reason enough for me to obtain PvP gear, or d) not bother to level a new character because that feeling of "potential" one gets when logging in is impacted overall. The game will feel like it is missing a major feature to me and just have less appeal. It doesn't matter how often I actually do it, what matters is how much I enjoy it when I do partake in the activity. So I sure hope this decision wasn't made because "75% of complaints were from solo queue'ers" or some other nonsense metric because that doesn't directly translate into value or loss. What it really means is they weren't asking the right questions.

Qbiken

Gravord wrote: »

Well, "final pts patch" dropped. Still no answer here. Not sure why we even bothered giving feedback. Nobody in ZOS interested in that clearly.

Yea, I too find it strange to open a feedback thread and then proceed to ignore it completely. Why ZOS may not change anything, it doesn't hurt to at least mention something about it in the PTS notes.

But seeing how ZOS has ignored feedback threads in the past (RIP ww feedback thread) I'm not surprised.

ninibini

I'm mainly a pve player. But I did like to play in bgs, but only if grouped with a friend - usually duo, and rarely 3 or 4.
I'm sure I was Canon fodder in some bgs when pitched against the pro pvpers, but there were others where it was quite even or where we got grouped with others and it just worked. Yeah, it's not nice to be rofflestomped, but it's a give and take that I could live with.
With this change I'll be done with bgs. Because it was more the shared triumph or the moans over a loss, that made them great for me.

From a technical standpoint I can understand the change. Matching up groups of varying sizes (1-4 players) and different mmrs must be quite complex. I guess this led to not always full teams on all sides.
Picking the next 12 players and distributing them into 3 groups according their mmr is probably a lot easier and requires less resources on the server.

All in all, I would expect this change to push out a lot of more casual players out of bgs, who did them for the shared experience.

Gravord

ninibini wrote: »

I'm mainly a pve player. But I did like to play in bgs, but only if grouped with a friend - usually duo, and rarely 3 or 4.
I'm sure I was Canon fodder in some bgs when pitched against the pro pvpers, but there were others where it was quite even or where we got grouped with others and it just worked. Yeah, it's not nice to be rofflestomped, but it's a give and take that I could live with.
With this change I'll be done with bgs. Because it was more the shared triumph or the moans over a loss, that made them great for me.

From a technical standpoint I can understand the change. Matching up groups of varying sizes (1-4 players) and different mmrs must be quite complex. I guess this led to not always full teams on all sides.
Picking the next 12 players and distributing them into 3 groups according their mmr is probably a lot easier and requires less resources on the server.

All in all, I would expect this change to push out a lot of more casual players out of bgs, who did them for the shared experience.

Entire mmr system is crap that need to be changed. Any potato player goes to high mmr simply by the fact of playing often. That doesnt make any sense. Losses should reduce your mmr, not just add fever points to it.

albertberku

just want to point out that there is no difference between two-man or four-man premades. Anything other than solo makes you immensely powerful. So, it has to be either free queue or solo queue or both. Two-man groups shouldnt belong to the solo queue.

And when i say that i am not talking about that casual guy playing with her gf on the weekends for couple hours. More often than not that two pvp veterans playing since beta will join your game with their fully tailored builds and things will suddenly get scary.

Kidgangster101

ninibini wrote: »

I'm mainly a pve player. But I did like to play in bgs, but only if grouped with a friend - usually duo, and rarely 3 or 4.
I'm sure I was Canon fodder in some bgs when pitched against the pro pvpers, but there were others where it was quite even or where we got grouped with others and it just worked. Yeah, it's not nice to be rofflestomped, but it's a give and take that I could live with.
With this change I'll be done with bgs. Because it was more the shared triumph or the moans over a loss, that made them great for me.

From a technical standpoint I can understand the change. Matching up groups of varying sizes (1-4 players) and different mmrs must be quite complex. I guess this led to not always full teams on all sides.
Picking the next 12 players and distributing them into 3 groups according their mmr is probably a lot easier and requires less resources on the server.

All in all, I would expect this change to push out a lot of more casual players out of bgs, who did them for the shared experience.

From the technical side it is their issue to fix (this will not fix it watch). Matchmaking 12 people really isn't hard it is their coding that allows you to enter the BG without a full group. It is their coding that it won't fill spots before the timer goes down to start. It's their coding that doesn't fill a team that is 1 or 2. It is their fault their ranking system is off of time played rather than actual ranking going up and down.

If "premades" were too much in high mmr matches then have the losing team go down in a rank after so many losses so they can get out of that tier they can't handle. Then after some wins they move back up.

It makes zero sense to me to change this entire thing and think that it will affect anything on their system. (Just look pve ques are freaking broken half the time) it is not a BG thing, it is an eso thing and people are supporting this change for what? Bad players will continue to be bad and the forums will be filled after this rolls out about "people are finding ways to glitch the que and finding ways to get premades into BG" rather than them admitting that they lost because of their actual skill level.

mikeb16_ESO77

albertberku wrote: »

just want to point out that there is no difference between two-man or four-man premades. Anything other than solo makes you immensely powerful. So, it has to be either free queue or solo queue or both. Two-man groups shouldnt belong to the solo queue.

And when i say that i am not talking about that casual guy playing with her gf on the weekends for couple hours. More often than not that two pvp veterans playing since beta will join your game with their fully tailored builds and things will suddenly get scary.

Two veterans playing together can absolutely be scary but saying it is the same as a 4 man premade is just not true.

Playing against two veterans who just didnt queue together will also be scary as it will look like they did, this is what the MMR system is suppose to handle but has failed.

As many pointed out it will be alot about RNG who gets the healer in low to mid tier MMR. More adaptable players will probably bring a healer spec if the group lacks it and in higher MMR you will still meet players that seem like a premade as they know what to do. After playing a while as your MMR increases you still wont be able to 1vX in BGs (besides a very select few), something alot of solo players probably are looking forward to, solo queue or not.

mav1234

albertberku wrote: »

just want to point out that there is no difference between two-man or four-man premades. Anything other than solo makes you immensely powerful. So, it has to be either free queue or solo queue or both. Two-man groups shouldnt belong to the solo queue.

And when i say that i am not talking about that casual guy playing with her gf on the weekends for couple hours. More often than not that two pvp veterans playing since beta will join your game with their fully tailored builds and things will suddenly get scary.

as someone that has queued with solos, duos, and only a handful of times with 3 people... I disagree. pretty strongly.

First, duos that queue move between teams, so there is not the same level of imbalance across matches.
Second, four mans handle duos easily for obvious reasons, so the argument that there is no difference is faulty. Many duos are not "perfectly optimized", and I would argue, based on my experiences and comments made in various BG streams, that an optimized tanky healer is a problem whether they are solo or duo queued, and while it may be "worse" when they are a duo, they are often worst than duo dps by themselves.
Finally, the degree of coordination duos have is often easy to mimic if you pay attention to the game - so much so, that I've heard several streamers remark "so and so must be grouped together" only to have one of those people end up on their team next round. That's because at high MMRs, swapping/following other melee/protecting squishies when someone overextends is just smart gameplay, as it has been in every MMO with group pvp. While duos do offer a bit of an advantage, it is minor, and, from my experience, definitely possible to overcome.

to me... the best option is a solo/duo queue, with no duos placed on the same team, and a group 4 person competitive queue with good rewards. And, in my dream of dreams, ZOS addresses healing too.

Gravord

mav1234 wrote: »

And, in my dream of dreams

In my dream they even go as far as responding to their own feedback topic..

albertberku

I am sorry but i just cant see those "duos just have minor advantages over solo" comments sincere. Seems like trying to justify duos just to be able to continue playing with buddies.

Olupajmibanan

albertberku wrote: »

I am sorry but i just cant see those "duos just have minor advantages over solo" comments sincere. Seems like trying to justify duos just to be able to continue playing with buddies.

League of Legends - the most popular PvP game has solo/duo queue and a group queue. No solo-only option at all. If duos in a solo queue were much of a deal, why would they allow it?

Secondly and most importantly, players shouldn't be forced into begging the almighty ZoS just to be able to play with their friends in an MMO. This change goes strictly against basic MMO principles.

mav1234

albertberku wrote: »

I am sorry but i just cant see those "duos just have minor advantages over solo" comments sincere. Seems like trying to justify duos just to be able to continue playing with buddies.

Duos offer some advantage over a random set of solo queues, but it is significantly less than a 4 stack. You're the one that commented that duos and 4 stacks were the same - they definitely are not. And no small component of that is the fact that between games, duos move across teams. In the same way that a solo queuing healer moves around teams, potentially creating an imbalance in a single match, it may even out over several games.

If it was so obviously OP to have a duo, then other players wouldn't consistently mistake solo players for it. But they do - many of the best BG streamers do this regularly. They are not bad players, quite the opposite. But randoms do show coordination that can mimic two people playing together. When I was healing BGs back right before Elswyr, people frequently thought I was duoing or in a group. But I always was solo queuing - I just stuck to my dps and sometimes they'd protect me.

Having a competent team in this game is what matters... and its true that people duo queuing will have a better shot of that than solo queues, and have a better shot at coordinating well. But if MMR worked properly, it wouldn't matter as much, since duos would have an elevated MMR relative to their "true" individual skill level.

Finally, I sure as hell want to be able to keep playing with my buddies. Instanced pvp is what I want to do, and if I can't do it with a friend, what exactly do I do? Cyrodill is massive zergs, lag, and sporadic fighting, and while fun in its own way, is not a replacement for BGs. This game has had group instanced PvP for several years now - this is a removal of a feature many of us have come to rely on.

albertberku

It is simple:

How many seconds can a solo player survive against equally skilled duo in ESO PvP, with same equipments, same speed and damage builds?

If they played against each other 100 times, could the solo win against duo a single time?

mav1234

albertberku wrote: »

It is simple:

How many seconds can a solo player survive against equally skilled duo in ESO PvP, with same equipments, same speed and damage builds?

If they played against each other 100 times, could the solo win against duo a single time?

How many times could a solo player survive against the focus of any 2 players on the other team, under those circumstances (same gear/build and skil/mmr)? 2v1 is imbalanced whether the people joined as a group or not. If you're looking for 1vX'ing, go to Cyrodil; BGs are about group gameplay.

A duo doesn't count as one person. The game is still, ideally, 4v4v4. The duo is occupying 2 of those 12 slots. If you're repeatedly running into a duo in a BG and are completely alone, there are more problems in that game than just the fact there's a duo in the queue, lol.

mikeb16_ESO77

albertberku wrote: »

It is simple:

How many seconds can a solo player survive against equally skilled duo in ESO PvP, with same equipments, same speed and damage builds?

If they played against each other 100 times, could the solo win against duo a single time?

Im not sure what you are expecting from solo only queue? 12 players running by themselves? If you run by yourself you will still run into 2v1, 3v1 or 4v1s.

Honestly I think the majority of the players who left BGs because of premades will find they will still be stomped once their MMR increases and they will leave BGs again. And this is the MMR systems fault. One should avarage one win in three if it worked like it should.

And one should not have to justify wanting to play with a friend or partner in an MMO or ANY multiplayer game for that matter, its the whole point of playing them over a solo game.

AhPook_Is_Here

I'd like to see a pure solo only queue, if people want to provide liquidity to duos, they could have a check box that let them queue with duos and groups so if they couldn't get in a solo game immediately, they could join a group game. Duos could also have their own queues that just pitted duos against duos and they could be 2v2v2 or 4v4v4 depending on what was in the queue. full groups should have their own queues. This lets everyone have a queue to satisfy their interests, and nobody can complain about having an unfair match.

Gravord

Gravord wrote: »

mav1234 wrote: »

And, in my dream of dreams

In my dream they even go as far as responding to their own feedback topic..

Less than a week to patch hitting live and still not a single response from ZOS. Topics about single gear set have multiple replies but disabling core game mechanic of grouping with your friends and guild mates aint worth their response. Priorities...