@Iskiab How do you calculate the mod vs 3k crit resists? I could really use that info lol.

At what point do you find using infused oblivion over sharpened to be beneficial?

WacArnold wrote: »

@Iskiab How do you calculate the mod vs 3k crit resists? I could really use that info lol.

At what point do you find using infused oblivion over sharpened to be beneficial?

Oh didn’t see this. If you use the character builder it’ll have your crit mod, right beside the spell crit %. Highest you can get it up to, without major force, is 113% I think it is.

It also calculates your crit resist, it converts the number into a %. I just remember 3k being 45% because that’s the usual recommended number.

I think 3k is 45% reduction in the size of crits, so if I was at 113% then 45% would be deducted from the crit size. Another thing to consider is Transmutation adds 10% crit resists I think it is.

So even against a healer running Transmutation with 3k crit resists you can get an over 50% crit mod.

Crit mod is a funny stat, it’s one of the only ones where you get better returns by investing more into it.

Oblivion infused vs sharpened, IDK, I haven’t mathed it. I’m a mathematical person by nature by I use my gut. I’m also still using onslaught which lets me tank my pen. Mathing things is useful but I find there are too many variables in an MMO for it to be better than anecdotal experience.

WacArnold wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

WacArnold wrote: »

@Iskiab How do you calculate the mod vs 3k crit resists? I could really use that info lol.

At what point do you find using infused oblivion over sharpened to be beneficial?

Oh didn’t see this. If you use the character builder it’ll have your crit mod, right beside the spell crit %. Highest you can get it up to, without major force, is 113% I think it is.

It also calculates your crit resist, it converts the number into a %. I just remember 3k being 45% because that’s the usual recommended number.

I think 3k is 45% reduction in the size of crits, so if I was at 113% then 45% would be deducted from the crit size. Another thing to consider is Transmutation adds 10% crit resists I think it is.

So even against a healer running Transmutation with 3k crit resists you can get an over 50% crit mod.

Crit mod is a funny stat, it’s one of the only ones where you get better returns by investing more into it.

Oblivion infused vs sharpened, IDK, I haven’t mathed it. I’m a mathematical person by nature by I use my gut. I’m also still using onslaught which lets me tank my pen. Mathing things is useful but I find there are too many variables in an MMO for it to be better than anecdotal experience.

Ok I got ya, so im at 90% and 45% resists hitting somebody with 3k resists im going to get 45% increased damage from crits right?

If that is correct, a post you had earlier made me wonder. You said most people aim for 60% increased damage against 3k resists. Mine is pretty low then, how important is it to get to at least 50%? I'm running low on options to boost that with current setup. 49% would be about my max currently, not counting vs transmutation.

There’s only really CPs, minor force (RAT), Khajit and the shadow mundus. My old rogue was a Kerra so made my alt Khajit so I can break 100% crit mod, but it’s not required or probably even optimal.

I’m thinking 5 light and maybe a couple lines of spell crit is all you need for your crit rate. Shadowy Disguise auto crit helps and I’m thinking it’s better for the crits you do get to hit hard then for them to be frequent, but it’s hard to tell.

I also noticed something, the passive for bonus damage from stealth is only to spell damage. I was thinking sets like crafty Alfiq would best because of the magicka bonus passives. I want to try war maiden now to try and take advantage of the spell power bonus from stealth.

Fo Sho, in pve crit matters more because it’s about sustained damage rather then burst. Not critting sucks when it happens on say a bow proc or ultimate, but you have some control with cloak.

20k hits of onslaught’s petty cool too, there are always people in pvp who’re trying to cheat crit resists to take advantage of.

WacArnold wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

WacArnold wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

WacArnold wrote: »

@Iskiab How do you calculate the mod vs 3k crit resists? I could really use that info lol.

At what point do you find using infused oblivion over sharpened to be beneficial?

Oh didn’t see this. If you use the character builder it’ll have your crit mod, right beside the spell crit %. Highest you can get it up to, without major force, is 113% I think it is.

It also calculates your crit resist, it converts the number into a %. I just remember 3k being 45% because that’s the usual recommended number.

I think 3k is 45% reduction in the size of crits, so if I was at 113% then 45% would be deducted from the crit size. Another thing to consider is Transmutation adds 10% crit resists I think it is.

So even against a healer running Transmutation with 3k crit resists you can get an over 50% crit mod.

Crit mod is a funny stat, it’s one of the only ones where you get better returns by investing more into it.

Oblivion infused vs sharpened, IDK, I haven’t mathed it. I’m a mathematical person by nature by I use my gut. I’m also still using onslaught which lets me tank my pen. Mathing things is useful but I find there are too many variables in an MMO for it to be better than anecdotal experience.

Ok I got ya, so im at 90% and 45% resists hitting somebody with 3k resists im going to get 45% increased damage from crits right?

If that is correct, a post you had earlier made me wonder. You said most people aim for 60% increased damage against 3k resists. Mine is pretty low then, how important is it to get to at least 50%? I'm running low on options to boost that with current setup. 49% would be about my max currently, not counting vs transmutation.

There’s only really CPs, minor force (RAT), Khajit and the shadow mundus. My old rogue was a Kerra so made my alt Khajit so I can break 100% crit mod, but it’s not required or probably even optimal.

I’m thinking 5 light and maybe a couple lines of spell crit is all you need for your crit rate. Shadowy Disguise auto crit helps and I’m thinking it’s better for the crits you do get to hit hard then for them to be frequent, but it’s hard to tell.

I also noticed something, the passive for bonus damage from stealth is only to spell damage. I was thinking sets like crafty Alfiq would best because of the magicka bonus passives. I want to try war maiden now to try and take advantage of the spell power bonus from stealth.

I think your right about crits hitting hard over frequent, quality over quantity. When I read your post it made me start thinking about that. I think im going to stick at 94% mod and 48% chance, its the best I can get with my setup crit chance is almost a 50/50 toss up. I hate to invest a lot into it crit because im loosing out on so much other stuff.

I feel like crit comes down to investing more into "chance" and depending on how often chance happens, steady damage may win out in the long run.

Anyways I was on the fence about cp but I think I will invest into crit mod. Crit doesn't happen all the time better make it count when it does.

I get to 107% on my Breton, but I play the glassiest of glass cannons. I use Spinner's/Bright Throat's/Slimecraw, all divines w/ Shadow & a sharpened inferno, and it hits pretty darn hard. (I'm torn between Spinner's & Crafty, but Spinner's is winning right now.) I've found that regen is more important than health on my build/playstyle with regard to staying alive — there isn't much of a difference between 17k & 25k health if you're in light divines — so I go with Ghastly Eye Bowl.

I always open from cloak, and if/when I can CC an opponent I will quickly re-cloak & hit them with another opener, ensuring that I am able to take full advantage of my high crit damage. (I strike from cloak quite often, another reason my insane regen is necessary.) I recently made a Khajiit specifically for this purpose, which would put me at 117% crit damage, but I haven't played him much. So far though, (anecdotally at least) going all penetration seems to hit just as hard.

Unfortunately, there are just some classes/builds that I will never kill, (but they have no issues killing me if they catch me.) I don't know if that is due to skill level or the inherent weakness of Magblades, (after looking at the skills in other classes arsenals I'm inclined to believe it's the latter) or a combination of the two, but either way I've [somewhat] accepted it — for now. I'm just crossing my fingers hoping for a buff, because at this point I don't think there's much more I can do with my build.

PS: @Iskiab, this is the second time I've seen you use the word "lines" in a way with which I am unfamiliar ("a couple lines of spell crit") can you explain what you mean by that please?

Iskiab wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

WacArnold wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

WacArnold wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

WacArnold wrote: »

@Iskiab How do you calculate the mod vs 3k crit resists? I could really use that info lol.

At what point do you find using infused oblivion over sharpened to be beneficial?

Oh didn’t see this. If you use the character builder it’ll have your crit mod, right beside the spell crit %. Highest you can get it up to, without major force, is 113% I think it is.

It also calculates your crit resist, it converts the number into a %. I just remember 3k being 45% because that’s the usual recommended number.

I think 3k is 45% reduction in the size of crits, so if I was at 113% then 45% would be deducted from the crit size. Another thing to consider is Transmutation adds 10% crit resists I think it is.

So even against a healer running Transmutation with 3k crit resists you can get an over 50% crit mod.

Crit mod is a funny stat, it’s one of the only ones where you get better returns by investing more into it.

Oblivion infused vs sharpened, IDK, I haven’t mathed it. I’m a mathematical person by nature by I use my gut. I’m also still using onslaught which lets me tank my pen. Mathing things is useful but I find there are too many variables in an MMO for it to be better than anecdotal experience.

Ok I got ya, so im at 90% and 45% resists hitting somebody with 3k resists im going to get 45% increased damage from crits right?

If that is correct, a post you had earlier made me wonder. You said most people aim for 60% increased damage against 3k resists. Mine is pretty low then, how important is it to get to at least 50%? I'm running low on options to boost that with current setup. 49% would be about my max currently, not counting vs transmutation.

There’s only really CPs, minor force (RAT), Khajit and the shadow mundus. My old rogue was a Kerra so made my alt Khajit so I can break 100% crit mod, but it’s not required or probably even optimal.

I’m thinking 5 light and maybe a couple lines of spell crit is all you need for your crit rate. Shadowy Disguise auto crit helps and I’m thinking it’s better for the crits you do get to hit hard then for them to be frequent, but it’s hard to tell.

I also noticed something, the passive for bonus damage from stealth is only to spell damage. I was thinking sets like crafty Alfiq would best because of the magicka bonus passives. I want to try war maiden now to try and take advantage of the spell power bonus from stealth.

I think your right about crits hitting hard over frequent, quality over quantity. When I read your post it made me start thinking about that. I think im going to stick at 94% mod and 48% chance, its the best I can get with my setup crit chance is almost a 50/50 toss up. I hate to invest a lot into it crit because im loosing out on so much other stuff.

I feel like crit comes down to investing more into "chance" and depending on how often chance happens, steady damage may win out in the long run.

Anyways I was on the fence about cp but I think I will invest into crit mod. Crit doesn't happen all the time better make it count when it does.

I get to 107% on my Breton, but I play the glassiest of glass cannons. I use Spinner's/Bright Throat's/Slimecraw, all divines w/ Shadow & a sharpened inferno, and it hits pretty darn hard. (I'm torn between Spinner's & Crafty, but Spinner's is winning right now.) I've found that regen is more important than health on my build/playstyle with regard to staying alive — there isn't much of a difference between 17k & 25k health if you're in light divines — so I go with Ghastly Eye Bowl.

I always open from cloak, and if/when I can CC an opponent I will quickly re-cloak & hit them with another opener, ensuring that I am able to take full advantage of my high crit damage. (I strike from cloak quite often, another reason my insane regen is necessary.) I recently made a Khajiit specifically for this purpose, which would put me at 117% crit damage, but I haven't played him much. So far though, (anecdotally at least) going all penetration seems to hit just as hard.

Unfortunately, there are just some classes/builds that I will never kill, (but they have no issues killing me if they catch me.) I don't know if that is due to skill level or the inherent weakness on Magblades, (after looking at the skills in other classes arsenals I'm inclined to believe it's the latter) or a combination of the two, but either way I've [somewhat] accepted it — for now. I'm just crossing my fingers hoping for a buff, because at this point I don't think there's much more I can do with my build.

PS: @Iskiab, this is the second time I've seen you use the word "lines" in a way with which I am unfamiliar ("a couple lines of spell crit") can you explain what you mean by that please?

Oh I just mean the set bonus’. I think I picked it up from someone else using the term, 2-4 piece bonus each being a line in the item set.

About spinners, someone said before that 5 piece bonus’ are supposed to be 2.5 times as powerful as regular set piece bonus’. For example bright throat gives 2k mag and 150 mag regen where a normal 2-4 piece bonus would be 129 regen or 1k mag.

If that’s true how strong 5 piece bonus’ are supposed to be then spinners is under budgeted.

It might be a case where it’s still good because armour gives you more the more you invest into it, I don’t know, but I’ve always been leery about using spinners because of that.

I agree with that logic in most cases, the only issue is that if I want crit damage the only place I can get it is the Shadow stone — which means I need to get penetration from somewhere. Even with CP a sharpened staff won't cut it, and obviously it's even more difficult to achieve in no CP. Now if I were using the Lover, I might go with Crafty instead of Spinner's (that hits like a truck too) but even with the Lover, Spinner's is still comparable. (Maybe even preferable actually, what with every other class running around with 25k+ resists.) As I said before, the two setups feel comparable, but I don't know which one is better by the math.

Some people are glass cannons as a means to secure kills and perhaps see that approach as a "counter" to nightblade weaknesses.

Isn't the rage, and QQ to ZOS, that gank / no counterplay builds elicit one of the reasons that magblades have been nerfed so hard?

Even stamblades have had their skill cap raised because of the general perception that they had things too easy for a long time...

The real question is what does a class with skills and passives designed for aggressive solo assassination do when aggressive solo assassination is no longer in favour as a playstyle?

srnm wrote: »

I read some people in this thread going glass cannon as a means to secure kills and counter weaknesses in nightblade.

No one likes to be insta-nuked without counterplay - and stealth is seen as an unfair advantage by most players who haven't invested the time to learn how to deal with it.

Isn't the rage, and QQ to ZOS, that gank / no counterplay builds elicit one of the reasons that magblades have been nerfed so hard? Even stamblades have had their skill cap raised because of the general perception that they had things too easy for a long time...

I know that I have a much more enjoyable time in small scale encounters when there is some back-and-forth rather than just running people over, or getting run over.

The real question is what does a class with skills and passives designed for aggressive solo assassination do when aggressive solo assassination is no longer in favour as a playstyle?

I don't go glass cannon out of a desire to "gank" or "insta-nuke" (in my experience, the latter isn't something that's even possible against a competent, decently-equipped player of any other class right now anyway) — I do it just so I can hang with the other classes. If I built my toon to have the same resistances as a Templar, DK, or Warden, it's literally impossible for me to put out the same amount of damage as them. (Compare Swallow Soul to Puncturing Sweep, Cliff Racer, or Molten Whip.) If I don't go glass cannon, I simply can't compete with other classes' skills. It's a huge trade-off too, if you saw my resistances/health, you'd laugh — most people are able to kill me in a matter of seconds (if they can catch me.)

I didn't even touch on the fact that all 3 of those classes also have vastly better healing capabilities — I'm forced to use a Resto staff & Healing Ward, (even further hurting my damage) — I can't even approach what they are able to do healing-wise.

I didn't have the opportunity to play this class when it overperformed, so I can't speak to that. All I know is that right now if I want to be at all competitive, I must compromise my defenses. I don't see any other way around it.

I actually think that sustain is at the heart of the issue.

If you didn’t need 2400 sustain to do well magblades would be able to devote a lot more to damage. If you compare costs of say magblade to templar, their big burst ability costs less than 2k mag. Sweeps you can spam non-stop.

Swallow soul is almost 3k. Heck, even honour the dead is cheap enough to be used as a stamplar because after the cost return it costs around 1600 mag.

You can really pump out damage when sustain isn’t an issue. Swallow soul is a little weaker then other apammables but at least it heals.

Tankiness you can build for, magblades are actually good at that, what you can’t really build for is good damage, tankiness and sustain... which sort of sounds like wanting it all, but can be done on other classes.

"what you can’t really build for is good damage, tankiness and sustain"

My thinking is that magblade is in the position it's in due to a deliberate policy decision by zos - not by accident or oversight.

Which leads to the question "what does a class with skills and passives designed for aggressive solo assassination do when aggressive solo assassination is no longer in favour as a playstyle"?

For me it was to heal my way to GO - and then retire my nightblade,
But I read this thread in the hope that I can find a way to make my nightblade great again...

srnm wrote: »

"what you can’t really build for is good damage, tankiness and sustain"

My thinking is that magblade is in the position it's in due to a deliberate policy decision by zos - not by accident or oversight.

Which leads to the question "what does a class with skills and passives designed for aggressive solo assassination do when aggressive solo assassination is no longer in favour as a playstyle"?

For me it was to heal my way to GO - and then retire my nightblade,
But I read this thread in the hope that I can find a way to make my nightblade great again...

Healing still works. You can do PvE dungeons and pvp, it’s just not as good as other classes at it. I recently switched my magblade gear over to templar and Templar is better, that’s not to say NB is bad though, just average amongst the classes. It’s better then DKs but worse then the other classes at it. It’s probably better at pure healing then Sorcs, but sorcs are better at mixing in damage and healing.

Iskiab wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

WacArnold wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

WacArnold wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

WacArnold wrote: »

@Iskiab How do you calculate the mod vs 3k crit resists? I could really use that info lol.

At what point do you find using infused oblivion over sharpened to be beneficial?

Oh didn’t see this. If you use the character builder it’ll have your crit mod, right beside the spell crit %. Highest you can get it up to, without major force, is 113% I think it is.

It also calculates your crit resist, it converts the number into a %. I just remember 3k being 45% because that’s the usual recommended number.

I think 3k is 45% reduction in the size of crits, so if I was at 113% then 45% would be deducted from the crit size. Another thing to consider is Transmutation adds 10% crit resists I think it is.

So even against a healer running Transmutation with 3k crit resists you can get an over 50% crit mod.

Crit mod is a funny stat, it’s one of the only ones where you get better returns by investing more into it.

Oblivion infused vs sharpened, IDK, I haven’t mathed it. I’m a mathematical person by nature by I use my gut. I’m also still using onslaught which lets me tank my pen. Mathing things is useful but I find there are too many variables in an MMO for it to be better than anecdotal experience.

Ok I got ya, so im at 90% and 45% resists hitting somebody with 3k resists im going to get 45% increased damage from crits right?

If that is correct, a post you had earlier made me wonder. You said most people aim for 60% increased damage against 3k resists. Mine is pretty low then, how important is it to get to at least 50%? I'm running low on options to boost that with current setup. 49% would be about my max currently, not counting vs transmutation.

There’s only really CPs, minor force (RAT), Khajit and the shadow mundus. My old rogue was a Kerra so made my alt Khajit so I can break 100% crit mod, but it’s not required or probably even optimal.

I’m thinking 5 light and maybe a couple lines of spell crit is all you need for your crit rate. Shadowy Disguise auto crit helps and I’m thinking it’s better for the crits you do get to hit hard then for them to be frequent, but it’s hard to tell.

I also noticed something, the passive for bonus damage from stealth is only to spell damage. I was thinking sets like crafty Alfiq would best because of the magicka bonus passives. I want to try war maiden now to try and take advantage of the spell power bonus from stealth.

I think your right about crits hitting hard over frequent, quality over quantity. When I read your post it made me start thinking about that. I think im going to stick at 94% mod and 48% chance, its the best I can get with my setup crit chance is almost a 50/50 toss up. I hate to invest a lot into it crit because im loosing out on so much other stuff.

I feel like crit comes down to investing more into "chance" and depending on how often chance happens, steady damage may win out in the long run.

Anyways I was on the fence about cp but I think I will invest into crit mod. Crit doesn't happen all the time better make it count when it does.

I get to 107% on my Breton, but I play the glassiest of glass cannons. I use Spinner's/Bright Throat's/Slimecraw, all divines w/ Shadow & a sharpened inferno, and it hits pretty darn hard. (I'm torn between Spinner's & Crafty, but Spinner's is winning right now.) I've found that regen is more important than health on my build/playstyle with regard to staying alive — there isn't much of a difference between 17k & 25k health if you're in light divines — so I go with Ghastly Eye Bowl.

I always open from cloak, and if/when I can CC an opponent I will quickly re-cloak & hit them with another opener, ensuring that I am able to take full advantage of my high crit damage. (I strike from cloak quite often, another reason my insane regen is necessary.) I recently made a Khajiit specifically for this purpose, which would put me at 117% crit damage, but I haven't played him much. So far though, (anecdotally at least) going all penetration seems to hit just as hard.

Unfortunately, there are just some classes/builds that I will never kill, (but they have no issues killing me if they catch me.) I don't know if that is due to skill level or the inherent weakness on Magblades, (after looking at the skills in other classes arsenals I'm inclined to believe it's the latter) or a combination of the two, but either way I've [somewhat] accepted it — for now. I'm just crossing my fingers hoping for a buff, because at this point I don't think there's much more I can do with my build.

PS: @Iskiab, this is the second time I've seen you use the word "lines" in a way with which I am unfamiliar ("a couple lines of spell crit") can you explain what you mean by that please?

Oh I just mean the set bonus’. I think I picked it up from someone else using the term, 2-4 piece bonus each being a line in the item set.

About spinners, someone said before that 5 piece bonus’ are supposed to be 2.5 times as powerful as regular set piece bonus’. For example bright throat gives 2k mag and 150 mag regen where a normal 2-4 piece bonus would be 129 regen or 1k mag.

If that’s true how strong 5 piece bonus’ are supposed to be then spinners is under budgeted.

It might be a case where it’s still good because armour gives you more the more you invest into it, I don’t know, but I’ve always been leery about using spinners because of that.

Some of the new sets ‘in theory’ should be better because they give 1700 pen in a 2-4 set item bonus, so half the spinners amount.

5 piece set bonuses are generally equal to ~2.32x a normal set bonus. This is true for all the "simple" sets that just give you an unconditional bonus, ie:
Julianos (300=~2.32*129)
Crafty Alfiq (2560=~2.33*1096)
Mothers Sorrow (1924=~2.31*833)
Fortified Brass (3460=~2.33*1487)
Spinners (3450=~2.32*1487) ( **standard set bonus for pen is 1487, not 1700, as far as I am aware)

So Spinners is on par with other standard sets (although strangely it is 10 less than Fortified brass, whereas I would have expected them to be the same).

Other sets give more, ie BTB is worth around 3x or Necro 2.85x, but this is above the standard because there is a condition that makes it a tradeoff (in BTB's case its having to use drinks over food, or needing a pet for Necro). ALternatively some sets are above because they give off-stat, ie: Shacklebreaker, Amberplasm.

Most of the basic sources of stats are also standardised. For example Mundus and Weapon Traits are generally worth 1.85x a standard set bonus, whereas Jewellery Trait is equivalent to 0.8x a standard set bonus. While this generally means you can mix and match things to get what you want from other places, the biggest problem is some stats are only available from very few sources, such as Crit damage, speed and to a lesser extent penetration.

[edit miscalculated BTB]

GhostofDatthaw wrote: »

It's where the loss of mending to swallow and the loss of secondary effects on skills over time has really hurt magnb. Magnb is reliant on siphon and ele drain or you do need to have that high regen. With strikes and drain I could get by fine with 1.6-1.8 in open world, even lower in duels. That opens up gear, mundus, and glyphs to be spec more into damage but already takes two skills. Before it wasn't a problem because siphon helped with Stam sustain and heals, swallow was ment to be woven hard to get those heals, path healed and added pressure. The synnergy of magnb kit has been crushed.

This is why blanket changes, like the ones the combat team put through, are just idiotic. You can't simply say "every single target spammable should have equal cost", or "deal similar damage". You should look at it in a more holistic way. How can you freaking standardize values when the entire core of the class is different and reaches effectivebess through different means. Can anyone tell me?

Yea... I am just done trying to play magblade in any 'competitive' way and be useful to the group. Compared to other classes it is so much harder to reach the same level of effectiveness. Magdk for example, braindead easy... repeated 5-7k scores in BGs without even trying. Best part is I run a heavy armor build with 555 regen, am insanely tanky and still have 0 problems killing targets and sustaining.

Yea, sustain is the culprit I think. Abilities like elemental drain require you to keep attacking to sustain them.

For example on a templar using their sustain ability and elemental drain you get the equivalent of 1k mag regen.

Imagine how differently magblade would play if Siphoning Strikes was guaranteed to go off every second, and merciless built every second whether you light attacked or not.