MagBlade Theorycrafting Changes Thread

Rianai

You don't need that much uptime to get value out of BS. Ofc it is not a carry set like PS was, that would allow you to facetank stuff, but a bit of extra tankyness when under pressure, the ulti gen and stam recovery all together make it a very strong choice.

Langeston

Rianai wrote: »

You don't need that much uptime to get value out of BS. Ofc it is not a carry set like PS was, that would allow you to facetank stuff, but a bit of extra tankyness when under pressure, the ulti gen and stam recovery all together make it a very strong choice.

That's the thing though: unless you're already tanky, you may not get that "bit of extra tankiness under pressure" when you need it — because of the low proc chance you may already be dead. (Isn't it only 6%?) As for ult regen, having to rely on taking damage in order to gain ultimate seems counterintuitive for a class that's designed to avoid damage. So basically, every time you cloak you're limiting the usefulness of your monster set — the two are completely at odds with each other from my perspective.

(I never used Pirate either. Aside from Troll King I've only used damage sets & don't really like procs. I use slimecraw right now.)

Rianai

You can not avoid getting hit unless you are playing a cloak spamming ganker who only ever goes for the easiest targets.

GhostofDatthaw

Blood spawn does not make sense for a cloak blade. If you are running dark cloak it is bis imo. I've always said the point of cloak blade is to avoid all damage. So it doesn't make sense. Youre better off with a sustain monster or a pure damage.

As far as your point on btb and pure stats. Btb is the easiest and imo best way to build into everything. It gives you a high Stam pool, mag, mag regen. If you are a cloaker you can get away with lower Stam pool, but dark cloak usage needs a higher pool around 15-17k. Imo the two sets that are a staple for most builds is btb/spring loaded or shackle/whatever food, I like clockwork citrus.

As far as amber is concerned. I have a golden set that I have run for a while. It's a good set, has good numbers. But to be honest it's like the same thing as shackle, if anything less damage and than shackle and a grind.

Langeston

Rianai wrote: »

You can not avoid getting hit

One of the major selling points of cloak is that when used properly, it can be effective in avoiding damage — I would imagine that's a big reason why we don't have a burst heal. Can you avoid 100% of the attacks that come your way? Um, no. But I don't think anyone implied that you could.

unless you are playing a cloak spamming ganker who only ever goes for the easiest targets.

Patently untrue. I use cloak both offensively & defensively, and I'm not particularly picky about who I target. I am able to avoid a ton of damage thanks to judicious use of cloak — so much so that it makes Bloodspawn almost useless to me.

Iskiab

Langeston wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

You can not avoid getting hit

One of the major selling points of cloak is that when used properly, it can be effective in avoiding damage — I would imagine that's a big reason why we don't have a burst heal. Can you avoid 100% of the attacks that come your way? Um, no. But I don't think anyone implied that you could.

unless you are playing a cloak spamming ganker who only ever goes for the easiest targets.

Patently untrue. I use cloak both offensively & defensively, and I'm not particularly picky about who I target. I am able to avoid a ton of damage thanks to judicious use of cloak — so much that it makes Bloodspawn almost useless to me.

I’d test it in a BG, whenever I try a new set or build that’s what I do.

If you try it solo in cyrodiil you’ll get skewed results imo. You don’t know the quality of player you’ll fight so it’s too hard to judge. You’ll see a lot more aoe spam in a BG, but I think almost every experienced non-cloak build out there has one aoe to pop NBs out of stealth, or at least I do.

Langeston

Iskiab wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

You can not avoid getting hit

One of the major selling points of cloak is that when used properly, it can be effective in avoiding damage — I would imagine that's a big reason why we don't have a burst heal. Can you avoid 100% of the attacks that come your way? Um, no. But I don't think anyone implied that you could.

unless you are playing a cloak spamming ganker who only ever goes for the easiest targets.

Patently untrue. I use cloak both offensively & defensively, and I'm not particularly picky about who I target. I am able to avoid a ton of damage thanks to judicious use of cloak — so much that it makes Bloodspawn almost useless to me.

I’d test it in a BG, whenever I try a new set or build that’s what I do.

If you try it solo in cyrodiil you’ll get skewed results imo. You don’t know the quality of player you’ll fight so it’s too hard to judge. You’ll see a lot more aoe spam in a BG, but I think almost every experienced non-cloak build out there has one aoe to pop NBs out of stealth, or at least I do.

Yeah, BGs are pretty much all I play nowadays. The new arena map is hell on my build, but still workable. The other maps (especially the larger ones) are fine. I do get pulled out of cloak from time to time, but I'm usually able to evade most players. Root typically presents a larger problem than AOEs, with DKs with & their root + curb stomp being pretty problematic at times, but overall considering the power deficit Magblades face, I think I do pretty well. I haven't played much in Cyrodiil, but my experience has been that it is much better suited to my playstyle.

Iskiab

Langeston wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

You can not avoid getting hit

One of the major selling points of cloak is that when used properly, it can be effective in avoiding damage — I would imagine that's a big reason why we don't have a burst heal. Can you avoid 100% of the attacks that come your way? Um, no. But I don't think anyone implied that you could.

unless you are playing a cloak spamming ganker who only ever goes for the easiest targets.

Patently untrue. I use cloak both offensively & defensively, and I'm not particularly picky about who I target. I am able to avoid a ton of damage thanks to judicious use of cloak — so much that it makes Bloodspawn almost useless to me.

I’d test it in a BG, whenever I try a new set or build that’s what I do.

If you try it solo in cyrodiil you’ll get skewed results imo. You don’t know the quality of player you’ll fight so it’s too hard to judge. You’ll see a lot more aoe spam in a BG, but I think almost every experienced non-cloak build out there has one aoe to pop NBs out of stealth, or at least I do.

Yeah, BGs are pretty much all I play nowadays. The new arena map is hell on my build, but still workable. The other maps (especially the larger ones) are fine. I do get pulled out of cloak from time to time, but I'm usually able to evade most players. Root typically presents a larger problem than AOEs, with DKs with & their root + curb stomp being pretty problematic at times, but overall considering the power deficit Magblades face, I think I do pretty well. I haven't played much in Cyrodiil, but my experience has been that it is much better suited to my playstyle.

For sure, DKs and toppling + puncturing Templars are the main reasons I started using mist form. Talked about counters with other magblades and it was always a 3+ button counter: cloak + RAT + shade or whatever. Sounds good in theory but terrible in practice.

It’s like shade, unless you have distance from the shade porting won’t necessarily save you. If you just recast shade the port won’t do much. Add mist form and you can force them to make a decision; camp your shade or chase you. They combine well.

Another thing to watch out for and figure out how to counter is being pulled. I think there was a DK who I swear would slot it every time she’d see me. Chains, into stun, into their lash thing, mist counters that too.

ExistingRug61

Iskiab wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

I'm torn between high penetration & high crit. Right now I'm using Slimecraw with Bright Throat's/Spinner's/Lover on my Breton with decent results, but I've run the whole gamut. Bright Throat's/Torug's/Shadow is pretty nasty, and the 3 second cooldown on the enchant seems helpful for pressuring, but that setup is even worse with tanky players due to lack of penetration. Bright Throat's/Crafty Alfiq is a nice combo as well. (Bright Throat's is kind of a must for me, as my playstyle is pretty sustain-intensive.)

*Warning: long theorycrafting post*

I've been messing around with some options recently in the builder while waiting for the next update to drop fro console, and I find Bright Thorat's Boast to be a difficult set to work with. I can see the attraction as its 5th piece bonus is comparatively better than the standard set bonus (being worth around 2.8x a normal set 2-4 piece bonus, where the standard 5th piece is normally set at 2.3x). However the fact that you have to run a drink with it is actually a reasonably significant opportunity cost vs food.

The issue with having to use a drink is two fold:
1) Drinks normally include a regen bonus of some form. However, on food drink the ratio that you normally get regen:stat in is ~1:10, whereas from almost all other sources it is ~1.17:10 (ie 129:1096). So food/drink is actually the least efficient source of regen. (**Note: one thing food/drink regen does have going for it is that it is out of combat which is good for cloaking, so if that is important to you it may override this point)
2) For drinks that do provide stat instead of regen, these always provide a lesser amount than you would get from food, ie consider Spring Loaded Infusion vs Crown Tri-Food or even more so Bewitched Sugar Skulls. Again, this makes drinks less efficient in terms of getting stats than drink.

From what I can see, using Bright Throat + Drink generally results in less total value (ie: the amount of set lines worth) than another set + food, provided that you have another place where you can swap stat for regen on your build (ie: changing jewellery glyphs from spell damage to regen) as generally the set you change to has less regen than Bright Throat.

Some examples using the more common drink options I have seen used with Bright Throats Boast:
These all compare to Amberplasm and Sugar Skulls with some other things like jewellery and armour glyph changes to keep regens similar.

1) Bright Throats Boast + Witchmothers Potent Brew + Tri-stat armour glyphs + 2x Spell damage jewellery enchants.
Change to Amberplasm + Sugar Skulls + Magicka armour glyphs + 2 Magicka recovery jewellery enchants.
Net result (before passives/buffs):
Slight (-0.5k) health drop, slight mag gain (+0.3k), large stam gain (+2.2k), bonus health and stam regen (+462 and +250 respectively), equal magicka regen, less spell damage (~-220), increased spell crit (+833).
So the total damage is just slightly less as the spell crit and slight mag increase doesn't quite make up for the spell damage loss, but you get a whole lot of max stam and stam sustain plus health regen. point. Only downside is that now less to the mag regen is out of combat.

2) Bright Throats Boast + Disast. Bloody Mara + Tri-stat armour glyphs
Change to Amberplasm + Sugar Skulls + Magicka armour glyphs
Net result (before passives/buffs):
Some health (-2.4k) lost, some stam (+2.2k) gained, some Mag lost (-1.4k) but spell damage (+129) and crit (+833) gained and also gains stam regen (+250) with only very slight mag (-29) and health regen (-43) losses.
So its basically a straight trade of health for stam (which I prefer as I find Bloody Mara gives more health than needed), bonus stam regen (with others almost the same), and damage is higher as the spell damage and crit outweights the lost mag.

3) Bright Throats Boast + Spring Loaded Infusion
Change to Amberplasm + Sugar Skulls
Net result (before passives/buffs):
Slight health (+0.4k) and stam (+0.4k) gain, significant magicka loss (-2.7k). Gain spell damage (+129) and spell crit (+833). Mag regen slight loss (-29) but gain stam (+250) and health (+462) regens.
The final damage is about the same as spell damage and crit almost makes up for the mag loss, but gain regens and a it of off stats.

Note: in cases 1&2 the armour glyph change loses a bit of efficiency due to changing from Tri Glyphs back to magicka, this is more than outweighed by the gains from the sugar skulls vs WMPB. You could always choose to keep the tri glyphs but this sacrifices magicka (damage) for the off stats versus the starting

In all these cases its generally possible to keep the effective spell damage and mag regen similar, but gain free off stat.

The only example I have seen that there isn't an equivalent that can achieve the same regens and damage with extra off stat is @fred4's build. This is because his already has everything committed to regen so it isn't possible to make up for the regen loss of swapping from Bright Throat + Hissmir. The closest I could get was something like swapping
Breton + Bright Throats + Hissmir + Tri-stat armour glyphs + Steed
for
Khajit + Amberplasm + Sugar Skulls + Magicka armour glyphs + Atronach + add vampire
I haven't tried this in the builder but I think it would result in almost the same stam sustain, but trades slightly less mag regen, health regen, and 10% speed to gain something like 3.5k Health, 2k Mag, 3k Stam, some spell damage and crit chance, and the Khajit crit damage bonus. Which seems like a lot to gain but speed and mag sustain are key parts of that build, so it may not be worth it for his playstyle.

That’s interesting, I’ll look into it.

I used to use BTB in a lot of builds, but now just use it in one. Issue for me is moreso it’s difficult to hit the magblade benchmarks and have decent damage stats.

I go for 25k health and 2.4k mag regen. Once I have that I mess around trying to get the best stats possible.

I’ve found at least 2.4k mag regen to be required. It looks to me like magblade skills are more expensive then other classes, and while in PvE sustain and damage being tied to light attacks is fine, in pvp you never get the full value of those abilities that you would on paper.

The issues I see with magblade:
1. Poor self healing
2. Poor sustain (abilities are too expensive)
3. Dependent on light attacks (does not work well in pvp)
4. Utility split amongst too many different abilities. Sustain issues combined with it being hard to fit Ele drain in your build isn’t a good combination
5. No delayed damage ability to help with burst

P.S. - yea, amber plasm does give you a nice stat spread. I put something together quickly and it looks decent, just has low pen. I wanted to use an infused oblivion enchantment but less then 10k pen looked really bad to me.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=188555

I'm still not sure about the front bar. I'd like RAT, ele drain or elemental weapon on there but am not sure how to make it fit. Issue is I need a siphoning ability on my front bar and want to pair concealed with cloak for the speed. I don't think Caluurion can crit so maybe I need to decide between crit or caluurion.

The build you have there is similar to what I am looking at. You could always swap from Shadow to Lover to get more pen. Probably slightly better sustained damage (and calu procs) but less bursty crits and reduces healing.

Or you can try to get both by swapping to Khajiit and Lover to have both more pen and still have the crit damage/healing. In this case you could swap most of the rest of your armour enchants from tri-stat to mag to get similar stats stats (probably just slightly worse). The main difference would be the loss of the Breton cost reduction passive, but as this setup has more damage to begin with you could also swap out one spell damage jewellery glyph for cost reduction to end up with about the same ability costs with around the same effective spell damage. ie:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=188645
The difference would be damage would now be a bit burstier as the increased pen will help the calu procs and LA/ability crits (even if they are slightly less than with shadow), but with slightly less sustained damage and healing.
Oh plus you get another 100 health/stam regen, but you lose the Breton spell resistance.

So still a tradeoff but it may be something to consider.

Iskiab

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

I'm torn between high penetration & high crit. Right now I'm using Slimecraw with Bright Throat's/Spinner's/Lover on my Breton with decent results, but I've run the whole gamut. Bright Throat's/Torug's/Shadow is pretty nasty, and the 3 second cooldown on the enchant seems helpful for pressuring, but that setup is even worse with tanky players due to lack of penetration. Bright Throat's/Crafty Alfiq is a nice combo as well. (Bright Throat's is kind of a must for me, as my playstyle is pretty sustain-intensive.)

*Warning: long theorycrafting post*

I've been messing around with some options recently in the builder while waiting for the next update to drop fro console, and I find Bright Thorat's Boast to be a difficult set to work with. I can see the attraction as its 5th piece bonus is comparatively better than the standard set bonus (being worth around 2.8x a normal set 2-4 piece bonus, where the standard 5th piece is normally set at 2.3x). However the fact that you have to run a drink with it is actually a reasonably significant opportunity cost vs food.

The issue with having to use a drink is two fold:
1) Drinks normally include a regen bonus of some form. However, on food drink the ratio that you normally get regen:stat in is ~1:10, whereas from almost all other sources it is ~1.17:10 (ie 129:1096). So food/drink is actually the least efficient source of regen. (**Note: one thing food/drink regen does have going for it is that it is out of combat which is good for cloaking, so if that is important to you it may override this point)
2) For drinks that do provide stat instead of regen, these always provide a lesser amount than you would get from food, ie consider Spring Loaded Infusion vs Crown Tri-Food or even more so Bewitched Sugar Skulls. Again, this makes drinks less efficient in terms of getting stats than drink.

From what I can see, using Bright Throat + Drink generally results in less total value (ie: the amount of set lines worth) than another set + food, provided that you have another place where you can swap stat for regen on your build (ie: changing jewellery glyphs from spell damage to regen) as generally the set you change to has less regen than Bright Throat.

Some examples using the more common drink options I have seen used with Bright Throats Boast:
These all compare to Amberplasm and Sugar Skulls with some other things like jewellery and armour glyph changes to keep regens similar.

1) Bright Throats Boast + Witchmothers Potent Brew + Tri-stat armour glyphs + 2x Spell damage jewellery enchants.
Change to Amberplasm + Sugar Skulls + Magicka armour glyphs + 2 Magicka recovery jewellery enchants.
Net result (before passives/buffs):
Slight (-0.5k) health drop, slight mag gain (+0.3k), large stam gain (+2.2k), bonus health and stam regen (+462 and +250 respectively), equal magicka regen, less spell damage (~-220), increased spell crit (+833).
So the total damage is just slightly less as the spell crit and slight mag increase doesn't quite make up for the spell damage loss, but you get a whole lot of max stam and stam sustain plus health regen. point. Only downside is that now less to the mag regen is out of combat.

2) Bright Throats Boast + Disast. Bloody Mara + Tri-stat armour glyphs
Change to Amberplasm + Sugar Skulls + Magicka armour glyphs
Net result (before passives/buffs):
Some health (-2.4k) lost, some stam (+2.2k) gained, some Mag lost (-1.4k) but spell damage (+129) and crit (+833) gained and also gains stam regen (+250) with only very slight mag (-29) and health regen (-43) losses.
So its basically a straight trade of health for stam (which I prefer as I find Bloody Mara gives more health than needed), bonus stam regen (with others almost the same), and damage is higher as the spell damage and crit outweights the lost mag.

3) Bright Throats Boast + Spring Loaded Infusion
Change to Amberplasm + Sugar Skulls
Net result (before passives/buffs):
Slight health (+0.4k) and stam (+0.4k) gain, significant magicka loss (-2.7k). Gain spell damage (+129) and spell crit (+833). Mag regen slight loss (-29) but gain stam (+250) and health (+462) regens.
The final damage is about the same as spell damage and crit almost makes up for the mag loss, but gain regens and a it of off stats.

Note: in cases 1&2 the armour glyph change loses a bit of efficiency due to changing from Tri Glyphs back to magicka, this is more than outweighed by the gains from the sugar skulls vs WMPB. You could always choose to keep the tri glyphs but this sacrifices magicka (damage) for the off stats versus the starting

In all these cases its generally possible to keep the effective spell damage and mag regen similar, but gain free off stat.

The only example I have seen that there isn't an equivalent that can achieve the same regens and damage with extra off stat is @fred4's build. This is because his already has everything committed to regen so it isn't possible to make up for the regen loss of swapping from Bright Throat + Hissmir. The closest I could get was something like swapping
Breton + Bright Throats + Hissmir + Tri-stat armour glyphs + Steed
for
Khajit + Amberplasm + Sugar Skulls + Magicka armour glyphs + Atronach + add vampire
I haven't tried this in the builder but I think it would result in almost the same stam sustain, but trades slightly less mag regen, health regen, and 10% speed to gain something like 3.5k Health, 2k Mag, 3k Stam, some spell damage and crit chance, and the Khajit crit damage bonus. Which seems like a lot to gain but speed and mag sustain are key parts of that build, so it may not be worth it for his playstyle.

That’s interesting, I’ll look into it.

I used to use BTB in a lot of builds, but now just use it in one. Issue for me is moreso it’s difficult to hit the magblade benchmarks and have decent damage stats.

I go for 25k health and 2.4k mag regen. Once I have that I mess around trying to get the best stats possible.

I’ve found at least 2.4k mag regen to be required. It looks to me like magblade skills are more expensive then other classes, and while in PvE sustain and damage being tied to light attacks is fine, in pvp you never get the full value of those abilities that you would on paper.

The issues I see with magblade:
1. Poor self healing
2. Poor sustain (abilities are too expensive)
3. Dependent on light attacks (does not work well in pvp)
4. Utility split amongst too many different abilities. Sustain issues combined with it being hard to fit Ele drain in your build isn’t a good combination
5. No delayed damage ability to help with burst

P.S. - yea, amber plasm does give you a nice stat spread. I put something together quickly and it looks decent, just has low pen. I wanted to use an infused oblivion enchantment but less then 10k pen looked really bad to me.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=188555

I'm still not sure about the front bar. I'd like RAT, ele drain or elemental weapon on there but am not sure how to make it fit. Issue is I need a siphoning ability on my front bar and want to pair concealed with cloak for the speed. I don't think Caluurion can crit so maybe I need to decide between crit or caluurion.

The build you have there is similar to what I am looking at. You could always swap from Shadow to Lover to get more pen. Probably slightly better sustained damage (and calu procs) but less bursty crits and reduces healing.

Or you can try to get both by swapping to Khajiit and Lover to have both more pen and still have the crit damage/healing. In this case you could swap most of the rest of your armour enchants from tri-stat to mag to get similar stats stats (probably just slightly worse). The main difference would be the loss of the Breton cost reduction passive, but as this setup has more damage to begin with you could also swap out one spell damage jewellery glyph for cost reduction to end up with about the same ability costs with around the same effective spell damage. ie:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=188645
The difference would be damage would now be a bit burstier as the increased pen will help the calu procs and LA/ability crits (even if they are slightly less than with shadow), but with slightly less sustained damage and healing.
Oh plus you get another 100 health/stam regen, but you lose the Breton spell resistance.

So still a tradeoff but it may be something to consider.

Yea, that does look better. It’s still a 60% crit mod vs 3k crit resists (what most people aim for) and the pen looks better. Maybe enough pen to run infused oblivion in the front bar, IDK.

It’s too bad that caluurion can’t crit, I was trying to figure out a ranged build and it doesn’t look like a crit build will have enough burst to take down high healing players. I think caluurion is sort of required, making crit builds weaker in NBs then they should be, they’re far stronger on Templars.

Amber and crafty should be good, but the skill layout is problematic.

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=188562

srnm

I enjoyed playing a magblade healer many campaigns ago and came to this thread to see what's what these days.

Some deep theory crafting here and it's commendable how much effort some of you put into running the numbers and trying to make magblade effective.

But I have to wonder, why aren't there other extremely long magsorc/magdk/magwarden/magcro theorycrafting threads?

Interestingly, there is a long magplar thread - but recently the thread has died down -- after the magplar buffs....

Also interesting is that I see at least one PC NA ball group guild running more magblades -- so perhaps magblades in group are OP. Which, if true, is kind of a sad fate for a class with origins as a solo assassin.

In any case, thanks for the builds, tips and tricks and good luck fighting the good fight.
But I'll play my warden for now....

Iskiab

srnm wrote: »

I enjoyed playing a magblade healer many campaigns ago and came to this thread to see what's what these days.

Some deep theory crafting here and it's commendable how much effort some of you put into running the numbers and trying to make magblade effective.

But I have to wonder, why aren't there other extremely long magsorc/magdk/magwarden/magcro theorycrafting threads?

Interestingly, there is a long magplar thread - but recently the thread has died down -- after the magplar buffs....

Also interesting is that I see at least one PC NA ball group guild running more magblades -- so perhaps magblades in group are OP. Which, if true, is kind of a sad fate for a class with origins as a solo assassin.

In any case, thanks for the builds, tips and tricks and good luck fighting the good fight.
But I'll play my warden for now....

Magblade healers work in large scale, so do magblade dps. They’re actually pretty strong; mainly because the best larger group pvp heals aren’t class skills, and Magblade dps does bring a couple things that other classes don’t have (bolstering and sap) and it’s mostly VD plus prox det anyways.

I still play my magblade healer in large scale but mostly from laziness, I’m still trying to decide between sorc, templar and Warden because they have better sustain.

WacArnold

@Iskiab How do you calculate the mod vs 3k crit resists? I could really use that info lol.

At what point do you find using infused oblivion over sharpened to be beneficial?

brandonv516

Well it's patch day. Played 3 Battlegrounds Deathmatches, got first place on my team in all 3, and I don't feel like I need to even change my build one bit.

Two favorite changes:

-Spectral Bow - very reliable now in being effective
-Soul Tether - amazing burst heal when outnumbered and low
I really do wish the cast time was removed from Soul Tether though.

And thank goodness they reverted the range on Shadow Image...

Iskiab

WacArnold wrote: »

@Iskiab How do you calculate the mod vs 3k crit resists? I could really use that info lol.

At what point do you find using infused oblivion over sharpened to be beneficial?

Oh didn’t see this. If you use the character builder it’ll have your crit mod, right beside the spell crit %. Highest you can get it up to, without major force, is 113% I think it is.

It also calculates your crit resist, it converts the number into a %. I just remember 3k being 45% because that’s the usual recommended number.

I think 3k is 45% reduction in the size of crits, so if I was at 113% then 45% would be deducted from the crit size. Another thing to consider is Transmutation adds 10% crit resists I think it is.

So even against a healer running Transmutation with 3k crit resists you can get an over 50% crit mod.

Crit mod is a funny stat, it’s one of the only ones where you get better returns by investing more into it.

Oblivion infused vs sharpened, IDK, I haven’t mathed it. I’m a mathematical person by nature by I use my gut. I’m also still using onslaught which lets me tank my pen. Mathing things is useful but I find there are too many variables in an MMO for it to be better than anecdotal experience.

WacArnold

Iskiab wrote: »

WacArnold wrote: »

@Iskiab How do you calculate the mod vs 3k crit resists? I could really use that info lol.

At what point do you find using infused oblivion over sharpened to be beneficial?

Oh didn’t see this. If you use the character builder it’ll have your crit mod, right beside the spell crit %. Highest you can get it up to, without major force, is 113% I think it is.

It also calculates your crit resist, it converts the number into a %. I just remember 3k being 45% because that’s the usual recommended number.

I think 3k is 45% reduction in the size of crits, so if I was at 113% then 45% would be deducted from the crit size. Another thing to consider is Transmutation adds 10% crit resists I think it is.

So even against a healer running Transmutation with 3k crit resists you can get an over 50% crit mod.

Crit mod is a funny stat, it’s one of the only ones where you get better returns by investing more into it.

Oblivion infused vs sharpened, IDK, I haven’t mathed it. I’m a mathematical person by nature by I use my gut. I’m also still using onslaught which lets me tank my pen. Mathing things is useful but I find there are too many variables in an MMO for it to be better than anecdotal experience.

Ok I got ya, so im at 90% and 45% resists hitting somebody with 3k resists im going to get 45% increased damage from crits right?

If that is correct, a post you had earlier made me wonder. You said most people aim for 60% increased damage against 3k resists. Mine is pretty low then, how important is it to get to at least 50%? I'm running low on options to boost that with current setup. 49% would be about my max currently, not counting vs transmutation.

Iskiab

WacArnold wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

WacArnold wrote: »

@Iskiab How do you calculate the mod vs 3k crit resists? I could really use that info lol.

At what point do you find using infused oblivion over sharpened to be beneficial?

Oh didn’t see this. If you use the character builder it’ll have your crit mod, right beside the spell crit %. Highest you can get it up to, without major force, is 113% I think it is.

It also calculates your crit resist, it converts the number into a %. I just remember 3k being 45% because that’s the usual recommended number.

I think 3k is 45% reduction in the size of crits, so if I was at 113% then 45% would be deducted from the crit size. Another thing to consider is Transmutation adds 10% crit resists I think it is.

So even against a healer running Transmutation with 3k crit resists you can get an over 50% crit mod.

Crit mod is a funny stat, it’s one of the only ones where you get better returns by investing more into it.

Oblivion infused vs sharpened, IDK, I haven’t mathed it. I’m a mathematical person by nature by I use my gut. I’m also still using onslaught which lets me tank my pen. Mathing things is useful but I find there are too many variables in an MMO for it to be better than anecdotal experience.

Ok I got ya, so im at 90% and 45% resists hitting somebody with 3k resists im going to get 45% increased damage from crits right?

If that is correct, a post you had earlier made me wonder. You said most people aim for 60% increased damage against 3k resists. Mine is pretty low then, how important is it to get to at least 50%? I'm running low on options to boost that with current setup. 49% would be about my max currently, not counting vs transmutation.

There’s only really CPs, minor force (RAT), Khajit and the shadow mundus. My old rogue was a Kerra so made my alt Khajit so I can break 100% crit mod, but it’s not required or probably even optimal.

I’m thinking 5 light and maybe a couple lines of spell crit is all you need for your crit rate. Shadowy Disguise auto crit helps and I’m thinking it’s better for the crits you do get to hit hard then for them to be frequent, but it’s hard to tell.

I also noticed something, the passive for bonus damage from stealth is only to spell damage. I was thinking sets like crafty Alfiq would best because of the magicka bonus passives. I want to try war maiden now to try and take advantage of the spell power bonus from stealth.

WacArnold

Iskiab wrote: »

WacArnold wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

WacArnold wrote: »

@Iskiab How do you calculate the mod vs 3k crit resists? I could really use that info lol.

At what point do you find using infused oblivion over sharpened to be beneficial?

Oh didn’t see this. If you use the character builder it’ll have your crit mod, right beside the spell crit %. Highest you can get it up to, without major force, is 113% I think it is.

It also calculates your crit resist, it converts the number into a %. I just remember 3k being 45% because that’s the usual recommended number.

I think 3k is 45% reduction in the size of crits, so if I was at 113% then 45% would be deducted from the crit size. Another thing to consider is Transmutation adds 10% crit resists I think it is.

So even against a healer running Transmutation with 3k crit resists you can get an over 50% crit mod.

Crit mod is a funny stat, it’s one of the only ones where you get better returns by investing more into it.

Oblivion infused vs sharpened, IDK, I haven’t mathed it. I’m a mathematical person by nature by I use my gut. I’m also still using onslaught which lets me tank my pen. Mathing things is useful but I find there are too many variables in an MMO for it to be better than anecdotal experience.

Ok I got ya, so im at 90% and 45% resists hitting somebody with 3k resists im going to get 45% increased damage from crits right?

If that is correct, a post you had earlier made me wonder. You said most people aim for 60% increased damage against 3k resists. Mine is pretty low then, how important is it to get to at least 50%? I'm running low on options to boost that with current setup. 49% would be about my max currently, not counting vs transmutation.

There’s only really CPs, minor force (RAT), Khajit and the shadow mundus. My old rogue was a Kerra so made my alt Khajit so I can break 100% crit mod, but it’s not required or probably even optimal.

I’m thinking 5 light and maybe a couple lines of spell crit is all you need for your crit rate. Shadowy Disguise auto crit helps and I’m thinking it’s better for the crits you do get to hit hard then for them to be frequent, but it’s hard to tell.

I also noticed something, the passive for bonus damage from stealth is only to spell damage. I was thinking sets like crafty Alfiq would best because of the magicka bonus passives. I want to try war maiden now to try and take advantage of the spell power bonus from stealth.

I think your right about crits hitting hard over frequent, quality over quantity. When I read your post it made me start thinking about that. I think im going to stick at 94% mod and 48% chance, its the best I can get with my setup crit chance is almost a 50/50 toss up. I hate to invest a lot into it crit because im loosing out on so much other stuff.

I feel like crit comes down to investing more into "chance" and depending on how often chance happens, steady damage may win out in the long run.

Anyways I was on the fence about cp but I think I will invest into crit mod. Crit doesn't happen all the time better make it count when it does.

Iskiab

Fo Sho, in pve crit matters more because it’s about sustained damage rather then burst. Not critting sucks when it happens on say a bow proc or ultimate, but you have some control with cloak.

20k hits of onslaught’s petty cool too, there are always people in pvp who’re trying to cheat crit resists to take advantage of.

WacArnold

brandonv516 wrote: »

Well it's patch day. Played 3 Battlegrounds Deathmatches, got first place on my team in all 3, and I don't feel like I need to even change my build one bit.

Two favorite changes:

-Spectral Bow - very reliable now in being effective
-Soul Tether - amazing burst heal when outnumbered and low
I really do wish the cast time was removed from Soul Tether though.

And thank goodness they reverted the range on Shadow Image...

Glad to hear spectral is reliable, nothing worse than a dodge.

Hope to run into you again sometime, I gotta better setup in the works. Last time you were definitely gonna kill me I was pretty much running on fumes just trying to stay alive, and had to dip out not much I could do but play def lol.

Are you still running ele weapon? I tried that I could not get the hang of that for my life.

Langeston

WacArnold wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

WacArnold wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

WacArnold wrote: »

@Iskiab How do you calculate the mod vs 3k crit resists? I could really use that info lol.

At what point do you find using infused oblivion over sharpened to be beneficial?

Oh didn’t see this. If you use the character builder it’ll have your crit mod, right beside the spell crit %. Highest you can get it up to, without major force, is 113% I think it is.

It also calculates your crit resist, it converts the number into a %. I just remember 3k being 45% because that’s the usual recommended number.

I think 3k is 45% reduction in the size of crits, so if I was at 113% then 45% would be deducted from the crit size. Another thing to consider is Transmutation adds 10% crit resists I think it is.

So even against a healer running Transmutation with 3k crit resists you can get an over 50% crit mod.

Crit mod is a funny stat, it’s one of the only ones where you get better returns by investing more into it.

Oblivion infused vs sharpened, IDK, I haven’t mathed it. I’m a mathematical person by nature by I use my gut. I’m also still using onslaught which lets me tank my pen. Mathing things is useful but I find there are too many variables in an MMO for it to be better than anecdotal experience.

Ok I got ya, so im at 90% and 45% resists hitting somebody with 3k resists im going to get 45% increased damage from crits right?

If that is correct, a post you had earlier made me wonder. You said most people aim for 60% increased damage against 3k resists. Mine is pretty low then, how important is it to get to at least 50%? I'm running low on options to boost that with current setup. 49% would be about my max currently, not counting vs transmutation.

There’s only really CPs, minor force (RAT), Khajit and the shadow mundus. My old rogue was a Kerra so made my alt Khajit so I can break 100% crit mod, but it’s not required or probably even optimal.

I’m thinking 5 light and maybe a couple lines of spell crit is all you need for your crit rate. Shadowy Disguise auto crit helps and I’m thinking it’s better for the crits you do get to hit hard then for them to be frequent, but it’s hard to tell.

I also noticed something, the passive for bonus damage from stealth is only to spell damage. I was thinking sets like crafty Alfiq would best because of the magicka bonus passives. I want to try war maiden now to try and take advantage of the spell power bonus from stealth.

I think your right about crits hitting hard over frequent, quality over quantity. When I read your post it made me start thinking about that. I think im going to stick at 94% mod and 48% chance, its the best I can get with my setup crit chance is almost a 50/50 toss up. I hate to invest a lot into it crit because im loosing out on so much other stuff.

I feel like crit comes down to investing more into "chance" and depending on how often chance happens, steady damage may win out in the long run.

Anyways I was on the fence about cp but I think I will invest into crit mod. Crit doesn't happen all the time better make it count when it does.

I get to 107% on my Breton, but I play the glassiest of glass cannons. I use Spinner's/Bright Throat's/Slimecraw, all divines w/ Shadow & a sharpened inferno, and it hits pretty darn hard. (I'm torn between Spinner's & Crafty, but Spinner's is winning right now.) I've found that regen is more important than health on my build/playstyle with regard to staying alive — there isn't much of a difference between 17k & 25k health if you're in light divines — so I go with Ghastly Eye Bowl.

I always open from cloak, and if/when I can CC an opponent I will quickly re-cloak & hit them with another opener, ensuring that I am able to take full advantage of my high crit damage. (I strike from cloak quite often, another reason my insane regen is necessary.) I recently made a Khajiit specifically for this purpose, which would put me at 117% crit damage, but I haven't played him much. So far though, (anecdotally at least) going all penetration seems to hit just as hard.

Unfortunately, there are just some classes/builds that I will never kill, (but they have no issues killing me if they catch me.) I don't know if that is due to skill level or the inherent weakness of Magblades, (after looking at the skills in other classes arsenals I'm inclined to believe it's the latter) or a combination of the two, but either way I've [somewhat] accepted it — for now. I'm just crossing my fingers hoping for a buff, because at this point I don't think there's much more I can do with my build.

PS: @Iskiab, this is the second time I've seen you use the word "lines" in a way with which I am unfamiliar ("a couple lines of spell crit") can you explain what you mean by that please?

Iskiab

Langeston wrote: »

WacArnold wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

WacArnold wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

WacArnold wrote: »

@Iskiab How do you calculate the mod vs 3k crit resists? I could really use that info lol.

At what point do you find using infused oblivion over sharpened to be beneficial?

Oh didn’t see this. If you use the character builder it’ll have your crit mod, right beside the spell crit %. Highest you can get it up to, without major force, is 113% I think it is.

It also calculates your crit resist, it converts the number into a %. I just remember 3k being 45% because that’s the usual recommended number.

I think 3k is 45% reduction in the size of crits, so if I was at 113% then 45% would be deducted from the crit size. Another thing to consider is Transmutation adds 10% crit resists I think it is.

So even against a healer running Transmutation with 3k crit resists you can get an over 50% crit mod.

Crit mod is a funny stat, it’s one of the only ones where you get better returns by investing more into it.

Oblivion infused vs sharpened, IDK, I haven’t mathed it. I’m a mathematical person by nature by I use my gut. I’m also still using onslaught which lets me tank my pen. Mathing things is useful but I find there are too many variables in an MMO for it to be better than anecdotal experience.

Ok I got ya, so im at 90% and 45% resists hitting somebody with 3k resists im going to get 45% increased damage from crits right?

If that is correct, a post you had earlier made me wonder. You said most people aim for 60% increased damage against 3k resists. Mine is pretty low then, how important is it to get to at least 50%? I'm running low on options to boost that with current setup. 49% would be about my max currently, not counting vs transmutation.

There’s only really CPs, minor force (RAT), Khajit and the shadow mundus. My old rogue was a Kerra so made my alt Khajit so I can break 100% crit mod, but it’s not required or probably even optimal.

I’m thinking 5 light and maybe a couple lines of spell crit is all you need for your crit rate. Shadowy Disguise auto crit helps and I’m thinking it’s better for the crits you do get to hit hard then for them to be frequent, but it’s hard to tell.

I also noticed something, the passive for bonus damage from stealth is only to spell damage. I was thinking sets like crafty Alfiq would best because of the magicka bonus passives. I want to try war maiden now to try and take advantage of the spell power bonus from stealth.

I think your right about crits hitting hard over frequent, quality over quantity. When I read your post it made me start thinking about that. I think im going to stick at 94% mod and 48% chance, its the best I can get with my setup crit chance is almost a 50/50 toss up. I hate to invest a lot into it crit because im loosing out on so much other stuff.

I feel like crit comes down to investing more into "chance" and depending on how often chance happens, steady damage may win out in the long run.

Anyways I was on the fence about cp but I think I will invest into crit mod. Crit doesn't happen all the time better make it count when it does.

I get to 107% on my Breton, but I play the glassiest of glass cannons. I use Spinner's/Bright Throat's/Slimecraw, all divines w/ Shadow & a sharpened inferno, and it hits pretty darn hard. (I'm torn between Spinner's & Crafty, but Spinner's is winning right now.) I've found that regen is more important than health on my build/playstyle with regard to staying alive — there isn't much of a difference between 17k & 25k health if you're in light divines — so I go with Ghastly Eye Bowl.

I always open from cloak, and if/when I can CC an opponent I will quickly re-cloak & hit them with another opener, ensuring that I am able to take full advantage of my high crit damage. (I strike from cloak quite often, another reason my insane regen is necessary.) I recently made a Khajiit specifically for this purpose, which would put me at 117% crit damage, but I haven't played him much. So far though, (anecdotally at least) going all penetration seems to hit just as hard.

Unfortunately, there are just some classes/builds that I will never kill, (but they have no issues killing me if they catch me.) I don't know if that is due to skill level or the inherent weakness on Magblades, (after looking at the skills in other classes arsenals I'm inclined to believe it's the latter) or a combination of the two, but either way I've [somewhat] accepted it — for now. I'm just crossing my fingers hoping for a buff, because at this point I don't think there's much more I can do with my build.

PS: @Iskiab, this is the second time I've seen you use the word "lines" in a way with which I am unfamiliar ("a couple lines of spell crit") can you explain what you mean by that please?

Oh I just mean the set bonus’. I think I picked it up from someone else using the term, 2-4 piece bonus each being a line in the item set.

About spinners, someone said before that 5 piece bonus’ are supposed to be 2.5 times as powerful as regular set piece bonus’. For example bright throat gives 2k mag and 150 mag regen where a normal 2-4 piece bonus would be 129 regen or 1k mag.

If that’s true how strong 5 piece bonus’ are supposed to be then spinners is under budgeted.

It might be a case where it’s still good because armour gives you more the more you invest into it, I don’t know, but I’ve always been leery about using spinners because of that.

Some of the new sets ‘in theory’ should be better because they give 1700 pen in a 2-4 set item bonus, so half the spinners amount.

Langeston

Iskiab wrote: »

Langeston wrote: »

WacArnold wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

WacArnold wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

WacArnold wrote: »

@Iskiab How do you calculate the mod vs 3k crit resists? I could really use that info lol.

At what point do you find using infused oblivion over sharpened to be beneficial?

Oh didn’t see this. If you use the character builder it’ll have your crit mod, right beside the spell crit %. Highest you can get it up to, without major force, is 113% I think it is.

It also calculates your crit resist, it converts the number into a %. I just remember 3k being 45% because that’s the usual recommended number.

I think 3k is 45% reduction in the size of crits, so if I was at 113% then 45% would be deducted from the crit size. Another thing to consider is Transmutation adds 10% crit resists I think it is.

So even against a healer running Transmutation with 3k crit resists you can get an over 50% crit mod.

Crit mod is a funny stat, it’s one of the only ones where you get better returns by investing more into it.

Oblivion infused vs sharpened, IDK, I haven’t mathed it. I’m a mathematical person by nature by I use my gut. I’m also still using onslaught which lets me tank my pen. Mathing things is useful but I find there are too many variables in an MMO for it to be better than anecdotal experience.

Ok I got ya, so im at 90% and 45% resists hitting somebody with 3k resists im going to get 45% increased damage from crits right?

If that is correct, a post you had earlier made me wonder. You said most people aim for 60% increased damage against 3k resists. Mine is pretty low then, how important is it to get to at least 50%? I'm running low on options to boost that with current setup. 49% would be about my max currently, not counting vs transmutation.

There’s only really CPs, minor force (RAT), Khajit and the shadow mundus. My old rogue was a Kerra so made my alt Khajit so I can break 100% crit mod, but it’s not required or probably even optimal.

I’m thinking 5 light and maybe a couple lines of spell crit is all you need for your crit rate. Shadowy Disguise auto crit helps and I’m thinking it’s better for the crits you do get to hit hard then for them to be frequent, but it’s hard to tell.

I also noticed something, the passive for bonus damage from stealth is only to spell damage. I was thinking sets like crafty Alfiq would best because of the magicka bonus passives. I want to try war maiden now to try and take advantage of the spell power bonus from stealth.

I think your right about crits hitting hard over frequent, quality over quantity. When I read your post it made me start thinking about that. I think im going to stick at 94% mod and 48% chance, its the best I can get with my setup crit chance is almost a 50/50 toss up. I hate to invest a lot into it crit because im loosing out on so much other stuff.

I feel like crit comes down to investing more into "chance" and depending on how often chance happens, steady damage may win out in the long run.

Anyways I was on the fence about cp but I think I will invest into crit mod. Crit doesn't happen all the time better make it count when it does.

I get to 107% on my Breton, but I play the glassiest of glass cannons. I use Spinner's/Bright Throat's/Slimecraw, all divines w/ Shadow & a sharpened inferno, and it hits pretty darn hard. (I'm torn between Spinner's & Crafty, but Spinner's is winning right now.) I've found that regen is more important than health on my build/playstyle with regard to staying alive — there isn't much of a difference between 17k & 25k health if you're in light divines — so I go with Ghastly Eye Bowl.

I always open from cloak, and if/when I can CC an opponent I will quickly re-cloak & hit them with another opener, ensuring that I am able to take full advantage of my high crit damage. (I strike from cloak quite often, another reason my insane regen is necessary.) I recently made a Khajiit specifically for this purpose, which would put me at 117% crit damage, but I haven't played him much. So far though, (anecdotally at least) going all penetration seems to hit just as hard.

Unfortunately, there are just some classes/builds that I will never kill, (but they have no issues killing me if they catch me.) I don't know if that is due to skill level or the inherent weakness on Magblades, (after looking at the skills in other classes arsenals I'm inclined to believe it's the latter) or a combination of the two, but either way I've [somewhat] accepted it — for now. I'm just crossing my fingers hoping for a buff, because at this point I don't think there's much more I can do with my build.

PS: @Iskiab, this is the second time I've seen you use the word "lines" in a way with which I am unfamiliar ("a couple lines of spell crit") can you explain what you mean by that please?

Oh I just mean the set bonus’. I think I picked it up from someone else using the term, 2-4 piece bonus each being a line in the item set.

About spinners, someone said before that 5 piece bonus’ are supposed to be 2.5 times as powerful as regular set piece bonus’. For example bright throat gives 2k mag and 150 mag regen where a normal 2-4 piece bonus would be 129 regen or 1k mag.

If that’s true how strong 5 piece bonus’ are supposed to be then spinners is under budgeted.

It might be a case where it’s still good because armour gives you more the more you invest into it, I don’t know, but I’ve always been leery about using spinners because of that.

I agree with that logic in most cases, the only issue is that if I want crit damage the only place I can get it is the Shadow stone — which means I need to get penetration from somewhere. Even with CP a sharpened staff won't cut it, and obviously it's even more difficult to achieve in no CP. Now if I were using the Lover, I might go with Crafty instead of Spinner's (that hits like a truck too) but even with the Lover, Spinner's is still comparable. (Maybe even preferable actually, what with every other class running around with 25k+ resists.) As I said before, the two setups feel comparable, but I don't know which one is better by the math.

WacArnold

@Langeston

Thats the build I use for bgs some differences being impen and food and crit since I use in bgs. I agree damage is nice on that and yeah there are some classes that can tank up enough to handle that damage while pushing enough damage to kill you, happens to me as well I know how you feel.

Im trying something a bit more tanky for cp I just cant handle that in cp my finesse is just not up to it, I am way to clumsy to not get caught lol. Only reason I can pull of in bgs is because of my team mates taking the heat lol. Thats the only way I am able to contribute to the team is to provide strong pressure from range.

srnm

Some people are glass cannons as a means to secure kills and perhaps see that approach as a "counter" to nightblade weaknesses.

Isn't the rage, and QQ to ZOS, that gank / no counterplay builds elicit one of the reasons that magblades have been nerfed so hard?

Even stamblades have had their skill cap raised because of the general perception that they had things too easy for a long time...

The real question is what does a class with skills and passives designed for aggressive solo assassination do when aggressive solo assassination is no longer in favour as a playstyle?

brandonv516

WacArnold wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

Well it's patch day. Played 3 Battlegrounds Deathmatches, got first place on my team in all 3, and I don't feel like I need to even change my build one bit.

Two favorite changes:

-Spectral Bow - very reliable now in being effective
-Soul Tether - amazing burst heal when outnumbered and low
I really do wish the cast time was removed from Soul Tether though.

And thank goodness they reverted the range on Shadow Image...

Glad to hear spectral is reliable, nothing worse than a dodge.

Hope to run into you again sometime, I gotta better setup in the works. Last time you were definitely gonna kill me I was pretty much running on fumes just trying to stay alive, and had to dip out not much I could do but play def lol.

Are you still running ele weapon? I tried that I could not get the hang of that for my life.

Hey there! I rotate between the spammable skills we have access to but since the patch I've only touched Swallow Soul.

Langeston

srnm wrote: »

I read some people in this thread going glass cannon as a means to secure kills and counter weaknesses in nightblade.

No one likes to be insta-nuked without counterplay - and stealth is seen as an unfair advantage by most players who haven't invested the time to learn how to deal with it.

Isn't the rage, and QQ to ZOS, that gank / no counterplay builds elicit one of the reasons that magblades have been nerfed so hard? Even stamblades have had their skill cap raised because of the general perception that they had things too easy for a long time...

I know that I have a much more enjoyable time in small scale encounters when there is some back-and-forth rather than just running people over, or getting run over.

The real question is what does a class with skills and passives designed for aggressive solo assassination do when aggressive solo assassination is no longer in favour as a playstyle?

I don't go glass cannon out of a desire to "gank" or "insta-nuke" (in my experience, the latter isn't something that's even possible against a competent, decently-equipped player of any other class right now anyway) — I do it just so I can hang with the other classes. If I built my toon to have the same resistances as a Templar, DK, or Warden, it's literally impossible for me to put out the same amount of damage as them. (Compare Swallow Soul to Puncturing Sweep, Cliff Racer, or Molten Whip.) If I don't go glass cannon, I simply can't compete with other classes' skills. It's a huge trade-off too, if you saw my resistances/health, you'd laugh — most people are able to kill me in a matter of seconds (if they can catch me.)

I didn't even touch on the fact that all 3 of those classes also have vastly better healing capabilities — I'm forced to use a Resto staff & Healing Ward, (even further hurting my damage) — I can't even approach what they are able to do healing-wise.

I didn't have the opportunity to play this class when it overperformed, so I can't speak to that. All I know is that right now if I want to be at all competitive, I must compromise my defenses. I don't see any other way around it.

brandonv516

Langeston wrote: »

srnm wrote: »

I read some people in this thread going glass cannon as a means to secure kills and counter weaknesses in nightblade.

No one likes to be insta-nuked without counterplay - and stealth is seen as an unfair advantage by most players who haven't invested the time to learn how to deal with it.

Isn't the rage, and QQ to ZOS, that gank / no counterplay builds elicit one of the reasons that magblades have been nerfed so hard? Even stamblades have had their skill cap raised because of the general perception that they had things too easy for a long time...

I know that I have a much more enjoyable time in small scale encounters when there is some back-and-forth rather than just running people over, or getting run over.

The real question is what does a class with skills and passives designed for aggressive solo assassination do when aggressive solo assassination is no longer in favour as a playstyle?

I don't go glass cannon out of a desire to "gank" or "insta-nuke" (in my experience, the latter isn't something that's even possible against a competent, decently-equipped player of any other class right now anyway) — I do it just so I can hang with the other classes. If I built my toon to have the same resistances as a Templar, DK, or Warden, it's literally impossible for me to put out the same amount of damage as them. (Compare Swallow Soul to Puncturing Sweep, Cliff Racer, or Molten Whip.) If I don't go glass cannon, I simply can't compete with other classes' skills. It's a huge trade-off too, if you saw my resistances/health, you'd laugh — most people are able to kill me in a matter of seconds (if they can catch me.)

I didn't even touch on the fact that all 3 of those classes also have vastly better healing capabilities — I'm forced to use a Resto staff & Healing Ward, (even further hurting my damage) — I can't even approach what they are able to do healing-wise.

I didn't have the opportunity to play this class when it overperformed, so I can't speak to that. All I know is that right now if I want to be at all competitive, I must compromise my defenses. I don't see any other way around it.

Spot on.

Iskiab

I actually think that sustain is at the heart of the issue.

If you didn’t need 2400 sustain to do well magblades would be able to devote a lot more to damage. If you compare costs of say magblade to templar, their big burst ability costs less than 2k mag. Sweeps you can spam non-stop.

Swallow soul is almost 3k. Heck, even honour the dead is cheap enough to be used as a stamplar because after the cost return it costs around 1600 mag.

You can really pump out damage when sustain isn’t an issue. Swallow soul is a little weaker then other apammables but at least it heals.

Tankiness you can build for, magblades are actually good at that, what you can’t really build for is good damage, tankiness and sustain... which sort of sounds like wanting it all, but can be done on other classes.

Akinos

Iskiab wrote: »

I actually think that sustain is at the heart of the issue.

If you didn’t need 2400 sustain to do well magblades would be able to devote a lot more to damage. If you compare costs of say magblade to templar, their big burst ability costs less than 2k mag. Sweeps you can spam non-stop.

Swallow soul is almost 3k. Heck, even honour the dead is cheap enough to be used as a stamplar because after the cost return it costs around 1600 mag.

You can really pump out damage when sustain isn’t an issue. Swallow soul is a little weaker then other apammables but at least it heals.

Tankiness you can build for, magblades are actually good at that, what you can’t really build for is good damage, tankiness and sustain... which sort of sounds like wanting it all, but can be done on other classes.

You can't really compare sweeps and swallow soul..one is ranged, heals, provides 8% magicka boost passively and does damage. While the other is melee, is channeled, snares with a passive chance to proc stuff and has a generally unreliable heal unless your fighting more then one target. Also last i checked sweeps cost like 2200-2400 magicka.

I agree tho about magblades, you need way to much regen to have truly effective damage. I feel like when i play magblade that the constant need to spam costly shields is why magblades need so much regen. I feel like i sustain better in heavy on magblade then I do in light, simply becasue I don't have to shield spam to stay alive.