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Additional Context on U23 Combat Changes

  • Iccengi
    Iccengi
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    There seems to be a big disconnect as to what actually promotes diversity.
    Taking the health boost away from warhorn made warden healers/tanks vital. It was perfect.
    Nerfing the universally accessible and rightly strongest heals in the game will not promote diversity. Nor are dps going to run defensive sets in pve. Pve group content is just that GROUP content as in everyone has their role and needs to perform it. Dps don’t run defensive sets because this isn’t cyrodil and they’re not running solo. They have a healer and that healer exists to keep them up right/sustaining/buffed. Nerfing the healer might push the low level pve completers into horrid builds but let’s face it they were probably wearing them to begin with. But for mid tier and high level all you will be doing is phasing out healers especially as the “replacements” only apply to Templar healers And tanks (as I assume it’ll now be OT roles to drop ring mid group and probably cast orbs too).
    The orb changed are hated and inconsistent with all other synergies literally everyone is saying that. It’s the only truly relevant mobile heal in the game and is vital for every trial since hof due to to the constant movement in all or most of those trials. There is really no compromise. The orb change are just plain bad and unneeded.
    I’m not opposed to the spring one time Cast but in order for that to work it needs to hit hard. Actually as some commenters have said all aoe heals need a boost. And as one commenter said if heals are too strong in pvp then nerf it via battle spirit. Heals are definitely not too strong in pve. As an avid player of 5 years 3 of which on an end game healer and dps I can assure you they are very much needed.
    Your patches over the last year have been very healer intensive with the amount of damage hitting group. For the first time in a few years healers became relevant in 4 man content (vbrp) and in sunspire the stress on healers is crazy hard. As someone with all hm completes except vcr and not all of sunspires bosses yet I loved the challenge it was fantastic. This just pushes us back into obscurity.
    If you want diversity give the classes unique buffs
    If you want dps nerfs NERF THE DPS SETS DAMAGE. Everyone knows that’s whats really making it skyrocket.
  • karekiz
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    Light attacking is there for a reason. It is one of the two attacks that do NOT cost magicka/stamina. Weaving is important so you do not run out of resources.

    I would rather take 80% of Light attack damage and place them back into core class/weapon abilities. I want to play a unique class and have it feel impactful, not left click a generic boring attack over and over.

    This also effectively raises the floor and keeps the top at a stand still. Players that LA weave dead on would see no difference. Players that struggle a bit would see improvement. Closing the DPS gap, which was something they wanted to do <Which I have no idea if they remember that>.
    Edited by karekiz on July 22, 2019 9:09PM
  • IonicKai
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    hello
    Seraphayel wrote: »
    my22y6oa8oh8.png

    Searing heat changes feel nice

    Have you tried using Soul Trap on top of all the other DoTs?

    It’s a nice parse and I like how distributed the damage is overall, yet the 20% DPS just by light attacking makes me sad.

    Are you not good at light attack weaving?

    It has nothing to do with being good or bad at it.

    On console light attack weaving (or should we call it animation canceling because that’s what it boils down to) is anything but reliable and you often cannot light attack weave in between skills.

    It’s a major design flaw that light attacks (!) make such a big part of your DPS Repertoire whereas other skills barely touch 10% or more than that.

    Well and then there’s still the thing that it’s a combat flaw ZOS couldn’t get rid of and then has been turned into a “feature“ because they had no idea of how to get rid of it (they try in U23 with adding cast times to Ultimates though so it’s still not working as intended and I’m sure ZOS would remove it if they’d knew how). But this thread isn’t about animation canceling so no need to further discuss this topic here.

    let's break it down, shall we?

    Light attacking is there for a reason. It is one of the two attacks that do NOT cost magicka/stamina. Weaving is important so you do not run out of resources.

    100% dps:

    5 skills on each bar, let's say 4 skills total out of 10 don't actually provide damage, but are for you to survive and increase dps output (shield, channelled acceleration/trap, sustain tool such as rune, netch, dark deal etc, and a self heal). That leaves 6 skills that do damage (not considering ults). do you really thing 6 skills should add up to 100% dps??

    insane.

    I think the issue is less that it is a factor and more that it is too mandatory given how poorly it performs particularly on console. I think being able to weave should reward the skilled player but 20% of the damage means it's is 1/5 of your total damage not including the other benefits. That means that those 6 skills are only 80% when they should be 90% comfortably. Remember that in a lot of cases light attacks actually improve sustain (leeching strikes on a nb for example) so it's a compounded benefit on something that isn't equally reliable. The strength and overall effect LAs is driving the canyon sized gap between the floor and the ceiling.
  • BennyButton
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    karekiz wrote: »
    Light attacking is there for a reason. It is one of the two attacks that do NOT cost magicka/stamina. Weaving is important so you do not run out of resources.

    I would rather take 80% of Light attack damage and place them back into core class/weapon abilities. I want to play a unique class and have it feel impactful, not left click a generic boring attack over and over.

    I guess you misunderstand what light weaving is.
  • BlissfulDeluge
    BlissfulDeluge
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    qzqra48sdkot.png
    People laughed when I made this meme. They called me insane.

    WELL WHO IS LAUGHING NOW?! >:'(
    Former completionist with all achievements unlocked up until Update 29 (Flames of Ambition). Avid RPer, writer, and former Breton lover. Then Legacy of the Bretons was released and I realized just how boring and uninspired the Bretons are according to the writers.
  • Jodynn
    Jodynn
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    my22y6oa8oh8.png

    Searing heat changes feel nice

    Have you tried using Soul Trap on top of all the other DoTs?

    It’s a nice parse and I like how distributed the damage is overall, yet the 20% DPS just by light attacking makes me sad.

    My class is magDK and even if soul trap hits more than eruption I still use it regardless because I love this class, and am disappointed entirely with the nerf to it and have a few suggestions how you can keep it in their standards but also give magDK something special.
    Jodynn PC NA
    PvE and PvP MagDK
    The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.
  • AzraelAcid
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    Welp, thanks again ZOS for staying true to form and completely pissing on the players. I just came back from a hiatus since Summerset. I quit then because I was trying furiously to reach enough DPS to progress through the Summerset Trial.

    I came back about a month ago, and stepped into Vet Scalecaller Peak for the first time last night on my DK Tank. Needless to say, we didn't complete.

    So now, I guess it's back to my console to play whatever the rage is there. This time I believe my hiatus will be permanent. I'm pretty much done with the misrepresentation of players.

    Edited to be less *critical*
    Edited by AzraelAcid on July 22, 2019 11:04PM
    You can not earn Respect by tolerating Disrespect.
    Death is the graduation of the soul
    .- Sylvia Browne

    Aleawyn - CP810 - Sorcorer - AD - North American Megasever
  • MehrunesFlagon
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    Just put soft caps on attributes and make us hybrids.

    how about no.
  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
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    karekiz wrote: »
    Light attacking is there for a reason. It is one of the two attacks that do NOT cost magicka/stamina. Weaving is important so you do not run out of resources.

    I would rather take 80% of Light attack damage and place them back into core class/weapon abilities. I want to play a unique class and have it feel impactful, not left click a generic boring attack over and over.

    This also effectively raises the floor and keeps the top at a stand still. Players that LA weave dead on would see no difference. Players that struggle a bit would see improvement. Closing the DPS gap, which was something they wanted to do <Which I have no idea if they remember that>.

    This. Give class skills the power back that was added to LA and remove this awful LA/animation canceling weaving style of gameplay that might work on PC yet is a crutch on console.
    PS5
    EU
    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
  • CambionDaemon
    CambionDaemon
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    Just put soft caps on attributes and make us hybrids.

    how about no.

    How about yes, seeing the game was designed that way to begin with and if I remember correctly had soft caps when it launched.

    The only way that you will get balance in classes is make it so you cannot stack in to a primary source with no drawbacks.
  • Jodynn
    Jodynn
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    karekiz wrote: »
    Light attacking is there for a reason. It is one of the two attacks that do NOT cost magicka/stamina. Weaving is important so you do not run out of resources.

    I would rather take 80% of Light attack damage and place them back into core class/weapon abilities. I want to play a unique class and have it feel impactful, not left click a generic boring attack over and over.

    This also effectively raises the floor and keeps the top at a stand still. Players that LA weave dead on would see no difference. Players that struggle a bit would see improvement. Closing the DPS gap, which was something they wanted to do <Which I have no idea if they remember that>.

    This. Give class skills the power back that was added to LA and remove this awful LA/animation canceling weaving style of gameplay that might work on PC yet is a crutch on console.

    I weave with a controller
    Jodynn PC NA
    PvE and PvP MagDK
    The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.
  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    karekiz wrote: »
    Light attacking is there for a reason. It is one of the two attacks that do NOT cost magicka/stamina. Weaving is important so you do not run out of resources.

    I would rather take 80% of Light attack damage and place them back into core class/weapon abilities. I want to play a unique class and have it feel impactful, not left click a generic boring attack over and over.

    This also effectively raises the floor and keeps the top at a stand still. Players that LA weave dead on would see no difference. Players that struggle a bit would see improvement. Closing the DPS gap, which was something they wanted to do <Which I have no idea if they remember that>.

    This. Give class skills the power back that was added to LA and remove this awful LA/animation canceling weaving style of gameplay that might work on PC yet is a crutch on console.

    I weave with a controller

    Yeah with a fraction of the effectiveness you can achieve by weaving with a mouse.
    Edited by Seraphayel on July 23, 2019 10:39PM
    PS5
    EU
    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
  • Jodynn
    Jodynn
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    8snjni60a2nc.png

    Is that so?
    Jodynn PC NA
    PvE and PvP MagDK
    The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.
  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
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    8snjni60a2nc.png

    Is that so?

    I don’t know on which platform or server you play, I know enough people with excellent connections that cannot weave properly due to input lag / usual ESO lags.
    PS5
    EU
    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
  • Jodynn
    Jodynn
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    8snjni60a2nc.png

    Is that so?

    I don’t know on which platform or server you play, I know enough people with excellent connections that cannot weave properly due to input lag / usual ESO lags.

    NA PC Server using Xbox One controller wireless with 170-300 ping on that parse.
    Jodynn PC NA
    PvE and PvP MagDK
    The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.
  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
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    Seraphayel wrote: »
    8snjni60a2nc.png

    Is that so?

    I don’t know on which platform or server you play, I know enough people with excellent connections that cannot weave properly due to input lag / usual ESO lags.

    NA PC Server using Xbox One controller wireless with 170-300 ping on that parse.

    Ah, you’re using a controller on PC. Don’t know if it’s a console thing then.

    Still impressed with that parse though.
    PS5
    EU
    Aldmeri Dominion
    - Khajiit Arcanist -
  • MehrunesFlagon
    MehrunesFlagon
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    Just put soft caps on attributes and make us hybrids.

    how about no.

    How about yes, seeing the game was designed that way to begin with and if I remember correctly had soft caps when it launched.

    The only way that you will get balance in classes is make it so you cannot stack in to a primary source with no drawbacks.

    There is already a drawback.Less health.absurd getting punished for putting all in one,when I would not need extra in them anyway.
  • Jodynn
    Jodynn
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    lol stamina/magicka sickness, that was terrible, do not bring that back
    Jodynn PC NA
    PvE and PvP MagDK
    The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.
  • Banana
    Banana
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    Bring back the Konkle
  • PoseidonEvil
    PoseidonEvil
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    [Quoted post has been removed.]

    Why is that dumb lmao.

    Is doing anything other than going 100% pure dmg really so stupid to you? Have some dd's slot a aoe heal?, have some slot some type of defensive ult for heal checks? A permafrost would be very useful with its aoe protection.

    Anti-fun = not hitting 100k dps anymore?

    Because now clears wont as easy as it was before duh! lol.

    that's the problem with letting players play for years with a broken game or broken skills. you get used to it, and then when its fixed everyone is upset because they don't want to re learn how to play after so many years have gone by lol
    In-game ID: alchelvly
    Phixeon Maghi -- Breton Healer
    Harrow the Souleater -- Breton Necro Healer
    Krogyle dro-Smoketh -- Orc Stamdk
  • Lucky28
    Lucky28
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    qzqra48sdkot.png
    People laughed when I made this meme. They called me insane.

    WELL WHO IS LAUGHING NOW?! >:'(

    lol. i mean pretty much all the changes i didn't like and the direction that was bumming me out when Wrobel was around has now been amplified since his departure...So, i'll admit i was wrong, i don't think he was the one doing it XD
    Edited by Lucky28 on July 25, 2019 3:59AM
    Invictus
  • CurvedSwords123
    CurvedSwords123
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    What are your plans for performance issues? That's what we care about.
  • Sandman929
    Sandman929
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    What are your plans for performance issues? That's what we care about.

    We're just going to have to hold onto our disappointment until the end of the year. That's when they'll state again that's it's complicated on ongoing and then say nothing again for another year. Respect the tradition.
  • Eraldus
    Eraldus
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    AzraelAcid wrote: »
    Welp, thanks again ZOS for staying true to form and completely pissing on the players. I just came back from a hiatus since Summerset. I quit then because I was trying furiously to reach enough DPS to progress through the Summerset Trial.

    I came back about a month ago, and stepped into Vet Scalecaller Peak for the first time last night on my DK Tank. Needless to say, we didn't complete.

    So now, I guess it's back to my console to play whatever the rage is there. This time I believe my hiatus will be permanent. I'm pretty much done with the misrepresentation of players.

    Edited to be less *critical*

    I also had came back last month, after taking a break from this game, although mine was longer than yours... I stopped playing the game way before the Morrowind update, but after seeing this mess of a patch, I decided to uninstall this game again and not touch it again, until ZOS starts balancing PVP and PVE separately.

    I'm not a PVP player, nor I follow any cookie cutter "meta" builds for PVE... I like playing my characters the way I enjoy the most and I came up with my own builds, even if they end up being mediocre, but even so, this patch managed to have my main character have 90% of his skills heavily nerfed, plus I'm too tired of seeing PVP muppets crying for nerfs and screwing both PVP and PVE players, because they suck at pvping, but they fail to realize that PVP players will find a way to kill them easily again, and these muppets wlll keep crying for more nerfs, without realizing the issue is not that a certain skill is OP, but because they're just bad at playing. Plain and simple.

    At least ZOS managed to make me save $200+ with this patch, because I was planning to buy all the previous DLCs and the Warden class, so that I could play through all the content I missed, but now I just decided to spend my money somewhere else.
    Edited by Eraldus on July 26, 2019 5:17AM
  • Tommy_The_Gun
    Tommy_The_Gun
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    qzqra48sdkot.png
    People laughed when I made this meme. They called me insane.

    WELL WHO IS LAUGHING NOW?! >:'(
    Yep. It feels like when Combat team changed, everything started going downhill. Almost the exact moment Guilliam joined the team (but I hardly doubt those are his ideas, he seemed... sane on his last YouTube video).

    For a brief moment the game looked fine and compared to what we have now, actually more balanced. All that was really needed was bug fixes.
    Oh and btw. When Wrobel was around we had this meme:
    MARxAdp.png

    And... what happened when combat team changed ?
    ...

    It became a reality....

    Volendrung:
    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Volendrung
    Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on July 26, 2019 5:44AM
  • James-Wayne
    James-Wayne
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    karekiz wrote: »
    Light attacking is there for a reason. It is one of the two attacks that do NOT cost magicka/stamina. Weaving is important so you do not run out of resources.

    I would rather take 80% of Light attack damage and place them back into core class/weapon abilities. I want to play a unique class and have it feel impactful, not left click a generic boring attack over and over.

    This also effectively raises the floor and keeps the top at a stand still. Players that LA weave dead on would see no difference. Players that struggle a bit would see improvement. Closing the DPS gap, which was something they wanted to do <Which I have no idea if they remember that>.

    1000% this! Weaving on 450 ping from the other side of the globe is just beyond crazy now!
    PERTH, AUSTRALIA | PC | NA | @Aussie-Elders

    TENTH ANNIVERSARY - Thanks for sticking with us for 10 years.
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  • Durham
    Durham
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    Healing springs has always worked, healers are used to it, healers like it, why change it, it feels good.

    Orbs, if you are going to just have one orb; stop this slowly moving crap and just make it a true ground HoT/DoT so it's consistent and reliable rather than "Oh you'll get my heals sometime, maybe, but don't move, until now, mk?"

    Vigor is overpowered and compromises the role of healer, sure they do more than just heal and also buff, but if you can replace with a DD you can do more damage than 2 buffers just have one, or just make a DD where a buff set and keep going.

    I can't speak much for other classes, I main and only play magDK really, I've tried all the other classes in end game and I just don't like it and would rather just not play the game; that being said, I'm feeling really lacking in competitive power here, I still do substantial DPS but my skill is outweighed by the fact people have executes and diminish my role and stam do more damage although I'm also a melee.

    This patch makes me question if eruption is even worth the 5.5k mag, is a shame to not have any earth heart skills other than Battle Roar passive, people are concerned with identity, well, this is a good way to lose it.

    "Healing springs has always worked, healers are used to it, healers like it, why change it, it feels good" Healing Springs are resource hogs in the game. Thats a big reason they are changing it. They stated in their stream they are looking at abilites and how it affects server performance. Watch for more AOE type abilites to get changed in future patches.
    Edited by Durham on July 29, 2019 3:17PM
    PVP DEADWAIT
    PVP The Unguildables
  • Ei8htba11
    Ei8htba11
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    Durham wrote: »
    ...They stated in their stream they are looking at abilites and how it affects server performance. Watch for more AOE type abilites to get changed in future patches.

    That's the part that gave me pause. Is the new skill audit less about balance and more about server impact, hiding under the guise of said balance?

    Just wondering.
  • Varana
    Varana
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    They also said at that point in the stream that these items on the list of performance improvements are something different than the balance changes.
    What they are looking at is how those skills work internally, in terms of computing efficiency.
    Whether the Healing Springs change is connected to that, is pure speculation. (And unless there's a clear developer statement, I'd count "Springs is a resource hog" as speculation, as well.)
    Edited by Varana on July 29, 2019 9:51PM
  • KILMAIM
    KILMAIM
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    I spend so little time on this game, it's pathetic. How many years until these new "standards" yield something fruitful? Seriously, what's the timeline? Give the community a realistic outlook. Taking the time to formulate a rationale response to this crock of horse**** is a waste of time. I simply don't care anymore. Congrats!
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