So ESO has finally become pay to win.

idk · July 2019

pod88kk wrote: »

There we have it folks. Judging by the new PTS patch note, you can now buy the fully leveled Undaunted skill line. Are we finally seeing the decline of ESO?

Until we see the official patch notes these Chicken Little stores are just a weak attempt to create drama. Obviously so based on the heavy dose of salt involved here.

BrooksP · July 2019

idk wrote: »

pod88kk wrote: »

There we have it folks. Judging by the new PTS patch note, you can now buy the fully leveled Undaunted skill line. Are we finally seeing the decline of ESO?

Until we see the official patch notes these Chicken Little stores are just a weak attempt to create drama. Obviously so based on the heavy dose of salt involved here.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/483597/pts-patch-notes-v5-1-0#latest

sevomd69 · July 2019

manny254 wrote: »

SirAxen wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

SirAxen wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

manny254 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Confirmed that having the undaunted skill line makes you "win" ESO.

Place two players into under 50 PVP at level 15. Now give one player access to powerful PVP skills such as DB, Meteor, Race against time, New Circle of Prot, New Entropy, and so on.

Are you telling me that the player who has all of the extra skills didn’t pay for power? Not to even mention undaunted.

True, but somehow I don't think under 50 PvP is the bar for "winning" ESO.

It is a part of the game that many players who wish to participate PVP will try. Further discouraging new players from testing the waters of the PVP community.

What you define as “Winning” is irrelevant. This change will have no direct effect to me, but that isn’t the point. The point is to try and maintain a healthy community. Instead of dismissing and down playing an issue, I suggest that you try to promote a health community. If you think selling someone power to beat up on lowbies is healthy, then me typing this is a waste of time.

You have to have complete the content to unlock the purchase. Which means, that person has put in the work to have that access. It changes absolutely nothing but the time put into having it on another character.

Pls show me how it is physically possible to obtain all these things on a low level character.

That isn't the point though. Why would have a new player be on even footing with someone that has been playing much longer anyway? Do the content, get the access. If said new player wants to use something from the Fighters Guild skill line then they should, you guessed it, do the content. So, not sure a new player and low-level PVP is a sound argument against this.

Low level PVP places an effective time limit on how long someone can PVP in that campaign. This time limit is shortened by doing content that earns XP. Unlocking the skills that will be sold in he crown store earns XP and shortens that time limit.

New players will be at a disadvantage in under 50 PVP when they encounter older players, but why sell power to widen that gap? Why allow these older players a larger time limit for their lowbie crushing?

New players should be at a disadvantage...no? Why should brand new players be on equal footing with players who've been playing this game for years?

abigfishy · July 2019

pod88kk wrote: »

There we have it folks. Judging by the new PTS patch note, you can now buy the fully leveled Undaunted skill line. Are we finally seeing the decline of ESO?

I hate pay to win games and will not play them.

Trying to define pay to win is very tricky. To some hardcore people ANYTHING is pay to win. A mount that you pay for is pay to win. A DLC where you can get extra skills and gear is pay to win. A paid expansion where they increase the level cap is pay to win. Paid race, faction and class change are all pay to win. To these people every MMO ever made is pay to win.

To me pay to win is where you either buy things that you cannot obtain in the game or that require an unreasonable grind to achieve which can be skipped with payment.

If they made it so that all your alts had the undaunted skill line unlocked for free if you had unlocked it on another character would that be an unfair advantage? Would you be opposed to that? Is it just the supporting the company that makes this great game that you oppose?

Things like this are not like those pay to win features as you still MUST complete the achievement and cannot skip it. However it does allow you to skip it on your alts. Things that make the game more alt friendly I think are good. Some people only ever play one character. That character will have everything maxed. Other people play lots of alts and grinding out things like Undaunted, Mages and Thieves guilds is really not fun. Letting your alts catch up a little to your main most powerful character seems like a positive move.

My biggest worry about this will be the cost. After the 5000 crown banker and merchant re-skins I think almost anything is possible.

BrooksP · July 2019

abigfishy wrote: »

pod88kk wrote: »

There we have it folks. Judging by the new PTS patch note, you can now buy the fully leveled Undaunted skill line. Are we finally seeing the decline of ESO?

I hate pay to win games and will not play them.

Trying to define pay to win is very tricky. To some hardcore people ANYTHING is pay to win. A mount that you pay for is pay to win. A DLC where you can get extra skills and gear is pay to win. A paid expansion where they increase the level cap is pay to win. Paid race, faction and class change are all pay to win. To these people every MMO ever made is pay to win.

To me pay to win is where you either buy things that you cannot obtain in the game or that require an unreasonable grind to achieve which can be skipped with payment.

P2W is easy to define, anything that can be bought that has an impact on gameplay. Expansions are as the name implies a expansion of the game, and they can't just cut off those who don't buy it. Plus usually expansions are segregated to those with and without it. I've only seen DLCs in ESO in regards to MMOs, usually they are simply content patches or expansions, but yes how they are in ESO is a form of p2w. Mount would be dependent on how mounts are implemented in the game, and so long as it doesn't give a bonus over normal mounts.

Also by your own definition ESO is already P2W, as you can't get warden, most cosmetic items, Imperial Race, access DLCs, craft bag, etc in the game.

FearlessOne_2014 · July 2019

Damn, I didn't expect this out of ZOS. I guess Elsweyr didn't make that much money for ZOS. After many of players did Chargebacks on ZOS.

ESO and GW2 was the last hold outs. I guess now it's just GW2. Sad times indeed for the gaming hobby.

wolf486 · July 2019

BrooksP wrote: »

wolf486 wrote: »

It's more "P2C" or P4C (Pay 2 or 4 Convenience) but the game has always been that way. IMO the game is borderline unplayable (certainly not enjoyable) without the craft bag. You can only get it by paying real money, no in game option.

Then how would you define p2w? Where would the line be between convenience and advantage?

For me p2w is when something is strictly locked behind real world money, with zero options of getting it through in game currency that are something OTHER than cosmetic items.

As someone who enjoys trading/crafting, ESO forces me to spend real world money for a craft bag. So that is borderline p2w in my case since I have zero options to get it otherwise. (and since I feel like ESO+ is a waste of money now, I no longer have the craft bag, which means I don't play the game much any more, if at all).

Someone on the BDO forums said p2w and p2c are pretty much the same in the end.

In the end the only acceptable cash shops in game for me are cosmetic items, or at the very least where things can be purchased with in game money. GW2 and PoE did their shops right. Having said that, I'm thoroughly enjoying BDO which does have items that give advantages in it's cash shop. It just depends on a persons end goal in a game, and in my case ESO is a worse offender than BDO for being p2w/p2c

BrooksP · July 2019

wolf486 wrote: »

BrooksP wrote: »

wolf486 wrote: »

It's more "P2C" or P4C (Pay 2 or 4 Convenience) but the game has always been that way. IMO the game is borderline unplayable (certainly not enjoyable) without the craft bag. You can only get it by paying real money, no in game option.

Then how would you define p2w? Where would the line be between convenience and advantage?

For me p2w is when something is strictly locked behind real world money, with zero options of getting it through in game currency that are something OTHER than cosmetic items.

As someone who enjoys trading/crafting, ESO forces me to spend real world money for a craft bag. So that is borderline p2w in my case since I have zero options to get it otherwise. (and since I feel like ESO+ is a waste of money now, I no longer have the craft bag, which means I don't play the game much any more, if at all).

Someone on the BDO forums said p2w and p2c are pretty much the same in the end.

In the end the only acceptable cash shops in game for me are cosmetic items, or at the very least where things can be purchased with in game money. GW2 and PoE did their shops right. Having said that, I'm thoroughly enjoying BDO which does have items that give advantages in it's cash shop. It just depends on a persons end goal in a game, and in my case ESO is a worse offender than BDO for being p2w/p2c

Because anything that makes things more convenient inherently gives an advantage. The difference lies in that all those games are based around convenience so the impact of convenience items are limited. So the BDO guy is correct.

Elsonso · July 2019

pod88kk wrote: »

There we have it folks. Judging by the new PTS patch note, you can now buy the fully leveled Undaunted skill line. Are we finally seeing the decline of ESO?

It's not pay-to-win but it is the new ZOS monetization scheme. Apparently a successful business plan, I expect to see it roll out across all parts of the game.

Aurielle · July 2019

How is it pay to win? You need to max out a skill line at least once to be able to purchase it. Seriously, how is NOT having to find a million lorebooks over and over again after you’ve done it once a problem? I could understand the claims of “P2W” if you could purchase the skill lines without ever earning them legitimately, but that’s not what this is.

SirMewser · July 2019

Necro minions buffed.
Sorcerer pets nerfed.

wolf486 · July 2019

BrooksP wrote: »

wolf486 wrote: »

BrooksP wrote: »

wolf486 wrote: »

It's more "P2C" or P4C (Pay 2 or 4 Convenience) but the game has always been that way. IMO the game is borderline unplayable (certainly not enjoyable) without the craft bag. You can only get it by paying real money, no in game option.

Then how would you define p2w? Where would the line be between convenience and advantage?

For me p2w is when something is strictly locked behind real world money, with zero options of getting it through in game currency that are something OTHER than cosmetic items.

As someone who enjoys trading/crafting, ESO forces me to spend real world money for a craft bag. So that is borderline p2w in my case since I have zero options to get it otherwise. (and since I feel like ESO+ is a waste of money now, I no longer have the craft bag, which means I don't play the game much any more, if at all).

Someone on the BDO forums said p2w and p2c are pretty much the same in the end.

In the end the only acceptable cash shops in game for me are cosmetic items, or at the very least where things can be purchased with in game money. GW2 and PoE did their shops right. Having said that, I'm thoroughly enjoying BDO which does have items that give advantages in it's cash shop. It just depends on a persons end goal in a game, and in my case ESO is a worse offender than BDO for being p2w/p2c

Because anything that makes things more convenient inherently gives an advantage. The difference lies in that all those games are based around convenience so the impact of convenience items are limited. So the BDO guy is correct.

I don't disagree, but player skill still matters most. I could pay thousands of dollars to get ahead in certain games, I'd still be useless in PvP or vet content. Just look at the people in this game who payed to have their characters leveled. I'm cp 412 and I wouldn't think of touching end game vet content. I use to play in cyro mostly just for fun, not serious 1v1 pvp, and I died a lot to players with far lower cp.

Things like skyshards, those magic books and certain skill lines, should have been account bound anyway. It's nice playing BDO and having many things account (family) bound. Allow people to do the undaunted quests still, but give different in game rewards. Paying (assuming per character?) to unlock those things just shows the greed of ZoS.

srfrogg23 · July 2019

It's not going to make people "win"... yet. That being said, I have argued myself blue in the face against all these stupid "make progression account wide" requests. Nobody seems to get it, though. The slippery slope is real.

Customers: "Make skyshards account wide!"
Zos: "Hey, we can monetize that!"

Customers: "Make guild skill lines account wide!"
Zos: "Hey, we can monetize that!"

So, what is the next popular demand from customers?

Customers: "Make monster helms drop in Normal Mode!"
Zos: "$$$ CHA-CHING!!! $$$"

Tandor · July 2019

Not remotely Pay to Win, just more pandering to the "I want it all, and I want it NOW!" players who are ruining the genre. As such it's a far bigger threat to the long-term health of ESO than any ability changes would ever be.

Mitrenga · July 2019

So, when are we expecting account wide alliance war ranks?

Jaimeh · July 2019

It's not pay-to-win per se, but I don't like the direction the game is taking with these crown store shortcuts, and the fact that they seem to increasingly monetize convenience features.

ATomiX96 · July 2019

Jaimeh wrote: »

It's not pay-to-win per se, but I don't like the direction the game is taking with these crown store shortcuts, and the fact that they seem to increasingly monetize convenience features.

Thats my major problem I have with it as well, the skyshards thing was just to test the waters how the community is gonna react and now they are gonna creep in skips for crowns slowly until the game truly becomes P2W.
Nothing that affects gameplay should be in a real-money shop it just ruins games.

wolf486 · July 2019

srfrogg23 wrote: »

It's not going to make people "win"... yet. That being said, I have argued myself blue in the face against all these stupid "make progression account wide" requests. Nobody seems to get it, though. The slippery slope is real.

Customers: "Make skyshards account wide!"
Zos: "Hey, we can monetize that!"

Customers: "Make guild skill lines account wide!"
Zos: "Hey, we can monetize that!"

So, what is the next popular demand from customers?

Customers: "Make monster helms drop in Normal Mode!"
Zos: "$$$ CHA-CHING!!! $$$"

Pretty much this. Rather than making this a monetization issue, they should have made it simply an account wide accomplishment.

abigfishy wrote: »

pod88kk wrote: »

There we have it folks. Judging by the new PTS patch note, you can now buy the fully leveled Undaunted skill line. Are we finally seeing the decline of ESO?

To me pay to win is where you either buy things that you cannot obtain in the game or that require an unreasonable grind to achieve which can be skipped with payment.

I agree with this definition and this is what I meant with p2w (or p2c), and when looking at it this way ESO is very much p2w then.

If I compare ESO with BDO, which is called a very p2w heavy game, everything can be bought in the market place in BDO. Value packs (essentially BDO's version of ESO+) sells for around 88million silver, but can be bought with in game money if wanted. Costumes and pets, which DO give an advantage can be bought there as well. All rare and difficult to buy with in game money and expensive, but possible in the market place.

Compare that with ESO, where you have a craft bag that is a reoccurring payment to unlock. The Imperial race locked behind a paywall as well as the Warden and Necro classes. In BDO they released a new class and anyone can play it without paying extra.

So whether the term is pay to win, pay to convenience or a paywall, ESO is very much guilty of having one.

Dragneel1207 · July 2019

eso is and was paytowin when they gated stuff behind dlcs and chapters which they dont test properly and release.
and Ppl who dont see it god save them

Vlad9425 · July 2019

Lol the amount of people defending this pay to win crap in here is insane. You people should actually feel ashamed of yourselves it’s because of you these developers will keep taking advantage of their consumers.

mikemacon · July 2019

“Pay to win.”

::channeling inner inigo montoya::

You use that phrase a lot.

I do not think it means what you think it means.

Apherius · July 2019

They are slowly making teso P2W ...

Later we will get the possibility to buy a token that give you instantantly 50 lvl ... and peoples will be like " Oh you need to reach lvl 50 first on another character if you want to buy it, seems more like a pay to not have to repeat content "

Lul, open your eyes guys.

rfennell_ESO · July 2019

pod88kk wrote: »

So ESO has finally become pay to win

Undaunted isn't really that hard to level organically.

Hence, them providing a shortcut to it isn't really pay to win.

Of course, the counter argument to that would be: They could have just made undaunted easier to level instead of making a cash grab on it.

Square252 · July 2019

Sooo. Because most people here are just whining again without any background knowledge. The definition of p2w:

pay-to-win
Any game policy where specific content needed to win is locked behind pay walls. Forcing people to pay, in order to access said content. While none can gain access to the content though other in game methods (combat, trading, etc)
For example:
Well it would be pay-to-win, if you couldn't kill him and take it.

Taken from urbandictionary.com.

So no. Neither skyshards nor the undaunted line are in any way pay2win. Just pay2not-having-to-play (which is kind of the point of a game imho).
Imho it's a nice way of ZoS to spare you of the grind on an alt. Due to the fact that you have to unlock it once, it's not even remotely pay2win.

Alucardo · July 2019

manny254 wrote: »

This should be only allowed on characters that are lvl 50+. It would make lowbie PVP disgusting and ruin the PVP experience of first time players.

Wait, they're allowing you to purchase these skill lines on characters under 50? I'm fine with them selling skill lines you've already done once, but being able to buy them under max level does seem pretty absurd.

Tandor · July 2019

wolf486 wrote: »

Rather than making this a monetization issue, they should have made it simply an account wide accomplishment.

No, they should have resisted the pressure and told players that if they wanted a character to have certain achievements or skills they would have to play the game the way it was intended in order to achieve them.

AhPook_Is_Here · July 2019

you have to grind RL to earn the money for ESO and repeat that content everyday; they say life is a game, ESO is a game, therefore it isn't pay to win, it's just mechanics.

Dragneel1207 · July 2019

Square252 wrote: »

Sooo. Because most people here are just whining again without any background knowledge. The definition of p2w:

pay-to-win
Any game policy where specific content needed to win is locked behind pay walls. Forcing people to pay, in order to access said content. While none can gain access to the content though other in game methods (combat, trading, etc)
For example:
Well it would be pay-to-win, if you couldn't kill him and take it.

Taken from urbandictionary.com.

So no. Neither skyshards nor the undaunted line are in any way pay2win. Just pay2not-having-to-play (which is kind of the point of a game imho).
Imho it's a nice way of ZoS to spare you of the grind on an alt. Due to the fact that you have to unlock it once, it's not even remotely pay2win.

craft bag, warden, necro, psijic, jewel craft
these things come under that. So, its p2w.
and lets not forget if u play in NA it's p2w.

Alucardo · July 2019

Dragneel1207 wrote: »

and lets not forget if u play in NA it's p2w.

If you're on NA it's Pay to Play, because on EU you can barely stay connected.

Mojmir · July 2019

They made it more convenient to get to the nerfs.