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So ESO has finally become pay to win.
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vesselwiththepestle✭✭✭✭✭
✭This will be great for below 50 pvp.1000+ CP
PC/EU Ravenwatch Daggerfall Covenant
Give me my wings back!1 -
Aalahk✭✭✭The only way i can find it semi acceptable is this. The skill line could be purchased only if you have already completed it on any one of your characters.
That's exactly how it works.Fully completing a skill line on one character now unlocks the ability to purchase that achievement and skill line on other characters. Once unlocked on your current character, the chosen skill line immediately advances to its maximum rank. All abilities contained within the purchased skill line arrive unranked, allowing you to advance and morph the skill as you see fit.
I'm guessing you were too lazy to read the thread or the actual PTS patch notes
The laziness of some people is shocking to me.10 -
SirAxen✭✭✭✭✭
Low level PVP places an effective time limit on how long someone can PVP in that campaign. This time limit is shortened by doing content that earns XP. Unlocking the skills that will be sold in he crown store earns XP and shortens that time limit.
True, but somehow I don't think under 50 PvP is the bar for "winning" ESO.
Place two players into under 50 PVP at level 15. Now give one player access to powerful PVP skills such as DB, Meteor, Race against time, New Circle of Prot, New Entropy, and so on.Confirmed that having the undaunted skill line makes you "win" ESO.
Are you telling me that the player who has all of the extra skills didn’t pay for power? Not to even mention undaunted.
It is a part of the game that many players who wish to participate PVP will try. Further discouraging new players from testing the waters of the PVP community.
What you define as “Winning” is irrelevant. This change will have no direct effect to me, but that isn’t the point. The point is to try and maintain a healthy community. Instead of dismissing and down playing an issue, I suggest that you try to promote a health community. If you think selling someone power to beat up on lowbies is healthy, then me typing this is a waste of time.
You have to have complete the content to unlock the purchase. Which means, that person has put in the work to have that access. It changes absolutely nothing but the time put into having it on another character.
Pls show me how it is physically possible to obtain all these things on a low level character.
That isn't the point though. Why would have a new player be on even footing with someone that has been playing much longer anyway? Do the content, get the access. If said new player wants to use something from the Fighters Guild skill line then they should, you guessed it, do the content. So, not sure a new player and low-level PVP is a sound argument against this.
New players will be at a disadvantage in under 50 PVP when they encounter older players, but why sell power to widen that gap? Why allow these older players a larger time limit for their lowbie crushing?
Again, getting crushed and learning why you're getting crushed is a big part of being new to PVP period not just low-level PVP. "Oh, that ability hurt. What was that?" *Looks at death recap* "Oh, comes from that skill line. I should go see what offers me as well."
Changes. Nothing.4 -
corpseblade✭✭✭Is there any limitation as to class? In other words, do you have to have created a max-level of the same class?
Or can anyone with a max-level character with all the guild lines/skyshards skip right to fully-maxed new class the day it becomes available (after a few hours of dolmen running) by flashing that cash?
I assume you are buying the corresponding achievements as well? What about the ones like exploring, fishing, holiday etc. achievements? Are those to be monetized for alts also?
How close to duplicate master crafters with skyshard skill points and instant research from the crown store? Any educated guess as to the effect on the game economy with more time to farm/craft? Will item prices go up or down?
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O_LYKOS✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pay to win?
You can simply grind and level up the skill line. Its just a shortcut. Barely a p2w.
Give it a restPC NA - GreggsSausageRoll8 -
ATomiX96✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pay to win?
You can simply grind and level up the skill line. Its just a shortcut. Barely a p2w.
Give it a rest
You can go do vet trials for skins. Buying skins from the crown store would be just a shortcut right? So lets put all the skins into the crown store as well.
I dont know why people play MMORPGs which revolve around character progression and build up when all they truly seek is instant gratification and ZOS is cashing the *** out on those people.
Lets just put everything into the crown store so you dont have to play the game at all anymore if thats what people want.
Stop putting gameplay impairing *** into the crown store, just *** keep it at costumes, mounts and other cosmetics.
This *** is even worse than crown crates and that should say enough.13 -
manny254✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Low level PVP places an effective time limit on how long someone can PVP in that campaign. This time limit is shortened by doing content that earns XP. Unlocking the skills that will be sold in he crown store earns XP and shortens that time limit.
True, but somehow I don't think under 50 PvP is the bar for "winning" ESO.
Place two players into under 50 PVP at level 15. Now give one player access to powerful PVP skills such as DB, Meteor, Race against time, New Circle of Prot, New Entropy, and so on.Confirmed that having the undaunted skill line makes you "win" ESO.
Are you telling me that the player who has all of the extra skills didn’t pay for power? Not to even mention undaunted.
It is a part of the game that many players who wish to participate PVP will try. Further discouraging new players from testing the waters of the PVP community.
What you define as “Winning” is irrelevant. This change will have no direct effect to me, but that isn’t the point. The point is to try and maintain a healthy community. Instead of dismissing and down playing an issue, I suggest that you try to promote a health community. If you think selling someone power to beat up on lowbies is healthy, then me typing this is a waste of time.
You have to have complete the content to unlock the purchase. Which means, that person has put in the work to have that access. It changes absolutely nothing but the time put into having it on another character.
Pls show me how it is physically possible to obtain all these things on a low level character.
That isn't the point though. Why would have a new player be on even footing with someone that has been playing much longer anyway? Do the content, get the access. If said new player wants to use something from the Fighters Guild skill line then they should, you guessed it, do the content. So, not sure a new player and low-level PVP is a sound argument against this.
New players will be at a disadvantage in under 50 PVP when they encounter older players, but why sell power to widen that gap? Why allow these older players a larger time limit for their lowbie crushing?
Again, getting crushed and learning why you're getting crushed is a big part of being new to PVP period not just low-level PVP. "Oh, that ability hurt. What was that?" *Looks at death recap* "Oh, comes from that skill line. I should go see what offers me as well."
Changes. Nothing.
Thank you for showing you have no understanding of lowbie PVP.
On live if a friend or someone I meet wants to try PVP I can tell them to try out under 50 PVP. I can craft them some decent impen gear and they have an effectively fair playing field with the others in the campaign. Sure they will lack experience, but this will be the only chance they have to be near gear parity until they reach “end game.” They can get their foot in the door and determine if PVP interest them and not feel like every player has some significantly more powerful gear.
With this addition to the crown store these players will not have an area that they can experience PVP with some parity to other players.
You physically can’t obtain all these skills at low level. This is the definition of selling power and it will directly influence an area of the game that players compete against each other. Worse still it will hurt the growth of a portion of the community that has been struggling since launch.Edited by manny254 on July 7, 2019 7:33AM- Mojican20 -
Canned_Apples✭✭✭✭✭
✭IT'S PAY TO WIN FOR SUB 50 PVP.
..but sub 50 pvp has always been broken.
They'll probably cost $30 a piece.4 -
BrooksP✭✭✭There we have it folks. Judging by the new PTS patch note, you can now buy the fully leveled Undaunted skill line. Are we finally seeing the decline of ESO?
Please go sit outside with the rest of the people who think there's anything "pay to win" about this game.
While I am not happy whatsoever about these so-called patch notes and "balance" changes, the game is far from pay to win.
It's a CONVENIENCE for you to be able to buy these skill lines now, as you have to have maxed them out entirely on a character to even be able to do so.
In a game based around convenience, paying for convenience is p2w. The thing is, the term "pay to win" has shifted so far to the point people think it only applies to extreme cases, it doesn't. Anything that can be bought and effects ingame play is p2w. "Convenience Items" is simply an excuse people try to use to justify it.
ESO has been p2w for along time, just not to the extreme as other models.
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Massacre_Wurm✭✭✭✭✭Yep , player with psijic line in < 50lvl bg is pretty much unkillable outside of zerging him.
Pure pay to win.Edited by Massacre_Wurm on July 7, 2019 7:51AM9 -
Parrot1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭Whilst I really dislike this change along with skyshard before it, i don’t agree it’s P2W. You need to have completed it previously and don’t gain an unfair advantage by paying for it - just get it quicker than you could have done.
If you class this as P2W there isn’t a MMO out there that is not.
It’s par for the course that there is pay to skip/convenience now1 -
Xogath✭✭✭Massacre_Wurm wrote: »Yep , player with psijic line in < 50lvl bg is pretty much unkillable outside of zerging him.
Pure pay to win.
You mean Werewolves?2 -
Massacre_Wurm✭✭✭✭✭Parrot1986 wrote: »Whilst I really dislike this change along with skyshard before it, i don’t agree it’s P2W. You need to have completed it previously and don’t gain an unfair advantage by paying for it - just get it quicker than you could have done.
If you class this as P2W there isn’t a MMO out there that is not.
It’s par for the course that there is pay to skip/convenience now
Sure , maxed psijic and undaunted is not "an unfair" advantage in < 50 pvp.
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Palidon✭✭✭✭✭
✭I fail to see where this new feature is Pay To Win. There is nothing that says you have to purchase the skill line. You still have the option to grind it out on other characters.
Seems some players will complain about anything in this game. It doesn't matter what it is.1 -
BrooksP✭✭✭Parrot1986 wrote: »If you class this as P2W there isn’t a MMO out there that is not.
It’s par for the course that there is pay to skip/convenience now
Because there isn't, and since people keep moving the goalposts and accepting it, this is what the genre has become.
Really they should just sell max level boosters and all skills max. I mean it is par for the course and it is only about convenience right? Should also be able to buy achievements, they aren't cash shop exclusive so might as well. How about just paying to not play the game, the true endgame of MMOs.
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alainjbrennanb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭These things is testing the water for the real p2w stuff, if peeps ignore, buy then the real p2w will come inMain character dk - Vanikifar whitestrike4
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Parrot1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭Massacre_Wurm wrote: »Parrot1986 wrote: »Whilst I really dislike this change along with skyshard before it, i don’t agree it’s P2W. You need to have completed it previously and don’t gain an unfair advantage by paying for it - just get it quicker than you could have done.
If you class this as P2W there isn’t a MMO out there that is not.
It’s par for the course that there is pay to skip/convenience now
Sure , maxed psijic and undaunted is not "an unfair" advantage in < 50 pvp.
Undaunted with battle scaling fair enough, psijic can already be max at <50 so not any different. <50 PvP is a very niche content type though and at some point becomes irrelevant for everyone so I’m not sure it’s massive factor.
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J2JMC✭✭✭✭✭Since the playerbase does not think this is pay to win, I recommend ZOS starts adding monster helms and trial sets in the crown store. ZOS can even sell them via lootbo...I mean surprise mechanics! Instant gold mine.Knee Jerk, L2P, Obtuse, Casual, Entitled, All The Best, unnecessary mention of CoD
Battle leveling for pve content defeats the idea of progression. Remove CP
"Apparently the players are more informed than we are"-Richard Lambert11 -
Massacre_Wurm✭✭✭✭✭Massacre_Wurm wrote: »Yep , player with psijic line in < 50lvl bg is pretty much unkillable outside of zerging him.
Pure pay to win.
You mean Werewolves?
What ? WWs are not the problem at all. Unless they are premade of course.0 -
Parrot1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭Parrot1986 wrote: »If you class this as P2W there isn’t a MMO out there that is not.
It’s par for the course that there is pay to skip/convenience now
Because there isn't, and since people keep moving the goalposts and accepting it, this is what the genre has become.
Really they should just sell max level boosters and all skills max. I mean it is par for the course and it is only about convenience right? Should also be able to buy achievements, they aren't cash shop exclusive so might as well. How about just paying to not play the game, the true endgame of MMOs.
I’m not disagreeing and 100% I’ll never purchase any of these, same as the sky shards. Ive also never spent any crowns since all these changes started coming in.
To be clear I dislike these changes, my point is they are a core part of MMOs now for increasing micro-transactions like it or not. I’m not sure how that can be stop to be honest, stop playing/paying subs they lose money and do more of them to make it up.
For me I’ve set limits as to what I’ll support/ignore and if we end up with paying for items like weapon and gear with IRL money that are either better than that in game or available in game but only via difficult content and this allows you to skip doing the content then I’m out.
For this stuff whilst I hate it, it doesn’t give anyone an additional advantage over me and I have 18 fully levelled alts with most of this unlocked.0 -
alainjbrennanb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Games that have the pay to win system incorporated usually try to obfuscate this trait by allowing players unlock everything by in-game means. Their developers and publishers will claim that players can either invest their time or their money in order to unlock items or progress through the game. This sentence is a red flag you should never ignore, as in all cases up to this point it literally translated into you will either cough up the money or spend hundreds of hours grinding and still be at a disadvantage compared to someone who bought progressionMain character dk - Vanikifar whitestrike11
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Massacre_Wurm✭✭✭✭✭My main concern is segregation of players. You leveling a new pvp toon so you need to do dolmens , dungeons , books , etc.
So you running around and plying with other people. Now you just grind to 50 , throw some money , end of story.Edited by Massacre_Wurm on July 7, 2019 8:53AM2 -
Caligamy_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Since the playerbase does not think this is pay to win, I recommend ZOS starts adding monster helms and trial sets in the crown store. ZOS can even sell them via lootbo...I mean surprise mechanics! Instant gold mine.
Yeah this ^ Since we can still obtain it in game, "It's just pay for convenience" right? It changes nothing in the long run, nothing idiotic at all about the white knighting in this thread.
love is love7 -
Minyassa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭What "finally"? If you see it this way, that happened with skyshards already. Old news.0 -
JamilaRaj✭✭✭✭✭
✭Why would have a new player be on even footing with someone that has been playing much longer anyway?
For example, because it is the noob campaign? That used to be the whole point of it.
Also note that longer playing player, to make use of his skill lines, would have to be paying player, therefore it is matter of level playing field for both new and old players and paying and not paying. And when players (and devs alike) flat out reject that there should be level playing field for paying and not paying players, it just says it all about P2W.khajiitNPC wrote: »@manny254 that is an excellent point. I would put in a ticket or bring to the attention of a ZOS affiliate. That they must be over lvl 50 to unlock said skill lines.
At best they do not care, because this is not the first time they damaged integrity of the noob campaign as a result of design decision revolving around monetization. At worst they know very well, because it is precisely the noob campaign where pruchased skill lines will be worth every dollar.Edited by JamilaRaj on July 7, 2019 1:39PM5 -
wolf486✭✭✭✭It's more "P2C" or P4C (Pay 2 or 4 Convenience) but the game has always been that way. IMO the game is borderline unplayable (certainly not enjoyable) without the craft bag. You can only get it by paying real money, no in game option.PC/NAMoved onto BDO and GW2 Skyrim, ATS/ETS2, ACNH and the overall goodness of single player games
RIP to the following:
(DC) Tharbûrz gro-Glumgrog - Orsimer -Stamden (lvl 50)
(AD) Vukz - Bosmer - Stamblade (lvl 50)0 -
Ash_In_My_Sujamma✭✭✭✭✭Even though it's a far cry from the original commitment to "cosmetics only" crown store, I wouldn't call it p2w. However I would prefer having those unlocks availlable with in game gold as well as crowns. You can already buy crown store items with gold. So why not add the same option for those "controversial" items as well? At the moment they are achievement bound which means they can't be gifted.
EDIT: And just a reminder. ESO is not a fre 2 play game. It requires a base game purchase (and several other expansions and dlcs in order to be competitive). I would understand those kind of store only additions on a f2p game but not on ESO.Edited by Ash_In_My_Sujamma on July 7, 2019 11:30AM1 -
Raudgrani✭✭✭✭✭
✭By the time you have made your tenth character, you will understand. It's not like we don't like to play the game, it's just that we don't want to go over the exactly same thing again, and again, and again and yes - again.
The Undaunted passives - very necessary indeed - and the riding speed, are the two foremost reasons I'm reluctant to making a new (especially PVP) character. It shouldn't mean I need to wait like 60 days before I can play a character the way I want (riding speed), or if I don't have people to play with, sit in endless wait for dungeon finder to level Undaunted. It's just bad game design. We've been through this already, many times for some of us. If we can skip that phase, it's not "P2W". I can't see how anyone can even say that. If you COULD buy it without ever having it, that would be a different thing.7 -
BrooksP✭✭✭It's more "P2C" or P4C (Pay 2 or 4 Convenience) but the game has always been that way. IMO the game is borderline unplayable (certainly not enjoyable) without the craft bag. You can only get it by paying real money, no in game option.
Then how would you define p2w? Where would the line be between convenience and advantage?3
