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Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.
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Alucardmike✭✭✭
"5 for Night Mother's Embrace, 4 for Vesture of Darloc Brae, and 3 for Night Terror.
As a Khajiit trained in Medium Armor, you are literally unseen."
This screenshot comes from a guild I follow. If a Khajiit can literally stand in front of a guard like that and not get detected then it is broken.
But, but, but the guard is a Bosmer...
This shows very good, how bad the Bosmer are in detecting sneaking things...The bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.18 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Alucardmike wrote: »
"5 for Night Mother's Embrace, 4 for Vesture of Darloc Brae, and 3 for Night Terror.
As a Khajiit trained in Medium Armor, you are literally unseen."
This screenshot comes from a guild I follow. If a Khajiit can literally stand in front of a guard like that and not get detected then it is broken.
But, but, but the guard is a Bosmer...
This shows very good, how bad the Bosmer are in detecting sneaking things...
Maybe the Bosmer guard is saving his 3 skill points for something actually worthwhile!19 -
alanmatillab16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
Maybe the Bosmer guard is saving his 3 skill points for something actually worthwhile!
Assuming:
A: It is actually a guard, all that cropped screenie shows is a Bosmer.
B: The Khajit had any bounty in the first place for the "guard" to react to.
If the nameplate of the npc could be seen and the bounty indicator then it would be worth paying attention to.
3 -
wedgebert✭✭✭✭✭
"5 for Night Mother's Embrace, 4 for Vesture of Darloc Brae, and 3 for Night Terror.
As a Khajiit trained in Medium Armor, you are literally unseen."
This screenshot comes from a guild I follow. If a Khajiit can literally stand in front of a guard like that and not get detected then it is broken.
What's "funny" is that it's broken in the exact same manner as the Wrathstone PTS when they initially had buffed Khajiit to 5m reduction.8 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »
Maybe the Bosmer guard is saving his 3 skill points for something actually worthwhile!
Assuming:
A: It is actually a guard, all that cropped screenie shows is a Bosmer.
B: The Khajit had any bounty in the first place for the "guard" to react to.
If the nameplate of the npc could be seen and the bounty indicator then it would be worth paying attention to.
Good points.
Perhaps it was actually a screenshot of a wise Khajiit kneeling before the true masters of stealth!6 -
max_only✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭That’s an npc Bosmer because we don’t have the emote that uses a sharpening tool he’s holding. No idea if the Khajiit has a bounty though.#FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
#OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
|| CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom3 -
Kalle_Demos✭✭✭✭✭They really screwed over long-time paying customers who poured hours of their time into stealth gameplay just so that Khajiit could shine during their DLC didn't they?
"If I am to be Queen, I must look fear in the face and conquer it. How can I ask my people to have faith in me if I don't have faith in myself?" - Queen Ayrenn8 -
deepseamk20b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Okay, this racial passives thing has clearly got people in a tizzy and though I could care less, I suppose being constructive is better than not at this point since people are so set in their ways.
What if......
ZOS introduces a system where when you chose your race, you get to pick your passives? Now I’m not saying the whole list of EVERY passive from every race is in your face but let’s say four or five lore friendly sets of passive you are able to choose from and can do to an in game shrine and change when you want?
I’ll use bosmer as an example since that’s what I am.
You have 4 trees. Name them what you will. Assassin, mender, defender. Whatever, probably not the best lore friendly titles for a wood elf but hear me out. You get 5 different passives right? You get to choose from the trees. Maybe you want mainly assassin passives that have stuff like sneak and extra damage from flank or behind. But you really like having a bit of disease/poison resistance and it’s in the defender tree. Go ahead and mix and match. Balance comes from following the “triad” as one tree may favor DPS and the others healing and tanking. Picking all passives from one tree would make you BiS essentially for that tree, but depending on your build and play style, taking a passive or two from another tree won’t be a bad thing either.
I don’t know. That’s the easiest way I can think of to keep things not only lore friendly but also gives people a choice to “play as you want”.Hey everyone! Look! It's a signature!3 -
max_only✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kalle_Demos wrote: »They really screwed over long-time paying customers who poured hours of their time into stealth gameplay just so that Khajiit could shine during their DLC didn't they?
Yes.#FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
#OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
|| CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom11 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »I’ll use bosmer as an example since that’s what I am.
You have 4 trees. Name them what you will. Assassin, mender, defender. Whatever, probably not the best lore friendly titles for a wood elf but hear me out. You get 5 different passives right? You get to choose from the trees. Maybe you want mainly assassin passives that have stuff like sneak and extra damage from flank or behind. But you really like having a bit of disease/poison resistance and it’s in the defender tree. Go ahead and mix and match. Balance comes from following the “triad” as one tree may favor DPS and the others healing and tanking. Picking all passives from one tree would make you BiS essentially for that tree, but depending on your build and play style, taking a passive or two from another tree won’t be a bad thing either.
I don’t know. That’s the easiest way I can think of to keep things not only lore friendly but also gives people a choice to “play as you want”.
Kind of sounds like the current CP trees.
Play as you want sounds like a great idea, but if you want to create the giant orc master of stealth who is a shadowy assassin and blends into the background due to thousands of years of his people living in trees, well..... how can they write story dialogue around that?
The fact of the matter is that all TES races have had the same narrative for the last 20 years. To all of a sudden up and musical chair and Chinese fire drill what everyone is used to and expects from their familiar world is just plan inexplicable. And if it's just to balance a small percentage of niche PvP playstyles, or to gimp Bosmer to force people to like Khajiits and thus be more inclined to purchase the Khajiit expansion, then all the more egregious. And then top it off with completely ignoring any concerned dialogue about it, and it's just a really bad deal all around.
Edited by Jaraal on May 23, 2019 3:40AM8 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »Okay, this racial passives thing has clearly got people in a tizzy and though I could care less, I suppose being constructive is better than not at this point since people are so set in their ways.
What if......
ZOS introduces a system where when you chose your race, you get to pick your passives? Now I’m not saying the whole list of EVERY passive from every race is in your face but let’s say four or five lore friendly sets of passive you are able to choose from and can do to an in game shrine and change when you want?
I’ll use bosmer as an example since that’s what I am.
You have 4 trees. Name them what you will. Assassin, mender, defender. Whatever, probably not the best lore friendly titles for a wood elf but hear me out. You get 5 different passives right? You get to choose from the trees. Maybe you want mainly assassin passives that have stuff like sneak and extra damage from flank or behind. But you really like having a bit of disease/poison resistance and it’s in the defender tree. Go ahead and mix and match. Balance comes from following the “triad” as one tree may favor DPS and the others healing and tanking. Picking all passives from one tree would make you BiS essentially for that tree, but depending on your build and play style, taking a passive or two from another tree won’t be a bad thing either.
I don’t know. That’s the easiest way I can think of to keep things not only lore friendly but also gives people a choice to “play as you want”.
Exactly this was described by devs when ZOS started campaign about racial changes. That any race can play any role through choices of passives.
Instead of this we received 6 races with 2k stamina, which lack any lore connection or diversity and there are simply one best race for everything - Orcs, while others are just weaker versions of orcs with slight nuances.10 -
Zephiran23✭✭✭✭I've started playing in Elsweyr and so far, on a non-Bosmer character, I haven't seen any content where stealth detection would be an advantage. Anyone else seen a situation where it would have helped?4
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Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭cameronmccrwb17_ESO wrote: »I've started playing in Elsweyr and so far, on a non-Bosmer character, I haven't seen any content where stealth detection would be an advantage. Anyone else seen a situation where it would have helped?
There is only one delve in Clockwork City where it could possibly be an "advantage" (very minor, pretty much insignificant), but I doubt it even works there, because the game treats players and NPCs differently on a regular basis, so it wouldn't surprise me if it wasn't doing anything there too.
In PvE, detection is a useless stat and if you take into account that the rest of hunter's eye is a detriment to dps when you actively try to take advantage of it, it's pretty much a useless passive overall. Getting to spend 3 SP elsewhere is its biggest perk.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.11 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭cameronmccrwb17_ESO wrote: »I've started playing in Elsweyr and so far, on a non-Bosmer character, I haven't seen any content where stealth detection would be an advantage. Anyone else seen a situation where it would have helped?
Yes, when you spend 90% of your game time (like me) stealing for a living.
I've made tens of millions of gold from being stealthy, and all that money goes into purchasing blueprints and materials to create furnishings for all my homes. But ZoS is not concerned with players like me, they are only concerned with chasing a constantly moving target of mythical PvP balance, at the expense of the majority of PvE players. It hardly makes financial sense to make parts of the game unattractive to the most players, but what do I know. I assume they have marketing gurus..... but it seems strange to make your game most appealing to a smaller segment of your customers at the expense of everyone else. And yet, with that said, I don't think I've seen an increase in the number of "Wow ZOS you've really made PvP fair for everyone!" threads. Seems like more of the same "Nerf Sorcs", "NB gankers still out of control", "Wardens still overlooked" and so forth threads filling up the PvP and test server forums. So whatever balance they are chasing doesn't seem to have been achieved with the 'new and improved' racial passives.
(edit) Sorry, I thought you meant player detection in stealth. Active Stealth Detection is only functional in PvP, and has been shown to have only negative effects (giving your presence away to hidden enemies before those without Stealth Detection). My personal experience in Cyrodiil wth Rank III of Hunter's Eye was that I was unable to see crouched enemy players six feet away from me, and could only detect their presence after casting Evil Hunter. So I can't even say that it has actual benefits in PvP, either.
Edited by Jaraal on May 23, 2019 4:32AM11 -
hmsdragonfly✭✭✭✭✭
✭cameronmccrwb17_ESO wrote: »I've started playing in Elsweyr and so far, on a non-Bosmer character, I haven't seen any content where stealth detection would be an advantage. Anyone else seen a situation where it would have helped?
Yes, when you spend 90% of your game time (like me) stealing for a living.
I've made tens of millions of gold from being stealthy, and all that money goes into purchasing blueprints and materials to create furnishings for all my homes. But ZoS is not concerned with players like me, they are only concerned with chasing a constantly moving target of mythical PvP balance, at the expense of the majority of PvE players. It hardly makes financial sense to make parts of the game unattractive to the most players, but what do I know. I assume they have marketing gurus..... but it seems strange to make your game most appealing to a smaller segment of your customers at the expense of everyone else. And yet, with that said, I don't think I've seen an increase in the number of "Wow ZOS you've really made PvP fair for everyone!" threads. Seems like more of the same "Nerf Sorcs", "NB gankers still out of control", "Wardens still overlooked" and so forth threads filling up the PvP and test server forums. So whatever balance they are chasing doesn't seem to have been achieved with the 'new and improved' racial passives.
(edit) Sorry, I thought you meant player detection in stealth. Active Stealth Detection is only functional in PvP, and has been shown to have only negative effects (giving your presence away to hidden enemies before those without Stealth Detection). My personal experience in Cyrodiil wth Rank III of Hunter's Eye was that I was unable to see crouched enemy players six feet away from me, and could only detect their presence after casting Evil Hunter. So I can't even say that it has actual benefits in PvP, either.
Dude don't blame PvP for this, no one in PvP asks for a stealth nerf on Bosmer.Aldmeri Dominion Loyalist. For the Queen!0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭hmsdragonfly wrote: »cameronmccrwb17_ESO wrote: »I've started playing in Elsweyr and so far, on a non-Bosmer character, I haven't seen any content where stealth detection would be an advantage. Anyone else seen a situation where it would have helped?
Yes, when you spend 90% of your game time (like me) stealing for a living.
I've made tens of millions of gold from being stealthy, and all that money goes into purchasing blueprints and materials to create furnishings for all my homes. But ZoS is not concerned with players like me, they are only concerned with chasing a constantly moving target of mythical PvP balance, at the expense of the majority of PvE players. It hardly makes financial sense to make parts of the game unattractive to the most players, but what do I know. I assume they have marketing gurus..... but it seems strange to make your game most appealing to a smaller segment of your customers at the expense of everyone else. And yet, with that said, I don't think I've seen an increase in the number of "Wow ZOS you've really made PvP fair for everyone!" threads. Seems like more of the same "Nerf Sorcs", "NB gankers still out of control", "Wardens still overlooked" and so forth threads filling up the PvP and test server forums. So whatever balance they are chasing doesn't seem to have been achieved with the 'new and improved' racial passives.
(edit) Sorry, I thought you meant player detection in stealth. Active Stealth Detection is only functional in PvP, and has been shown to have only negative effects (giving your presence away to hidden enemies before those without Stealth Detection). My personal experience in Cyrodiil wth Rank III of Hunter's Eye was that I was unable to see crouched enemy players six feet away from me, and could only detect their presence after casting Evil Hunter. So I can't even say that it has actual benefits in PvP, either.
Dude don't blame PvP for this, no one in PvP asks for a stealth nerf on Bosmer.
Several pages back there were people defending this change saying that “stealth” is pointless in pve and stealth detect was more useful because no one used stealth in PvE except for RP.
I agree with you though, MOST people were not asking for this change, but there were people defending it.10 -
SidraWillowsky✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »3 months later and the only response from ZOS is "be nice".
This is my main takeaway- a well-written, thoughtful, and poignant OP that resulted in nearly 70 pages of largely constructive discussion is met with zero response or even acknowledgment beyond chastising people for arguing...18 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭hmsdragonfly wrote: »cameronmccrwb17_ESO wrote: »I've started playing in Elsweyr and so far, on a non-Bosmer character, I haven't seen any content where stealth detection would be an advantage. Anyone else seen a situation where it would have helped?
Yes, when you spend 90% of your game time (like me) stealing for a living.
I've made tens of millions of gold from being stealthy, and all that money goes into purchasing blueprints and materials to create furnishings for all my homes. But ZoS is not concerned with players like me, they are only concerned with chasing a constantly moving target of mythical PvP balance, at the expense of the majority of PvE players. It hardly makes financial sense to make parts of the game unattractive to the most players, but what do I know. I assume they have marketing gurus..... but it seems strange to make your game most appealing to a smaller segment of your customers at the expense of everyone else. And yet, with that said, I don't think I've seen an increase in the number of "Wow ZOS you've really made PvP fair for everyone!" threads. Seems like more of the same "Nerf Sorcs", "NB gankers still out of control", "Wardens still overlooked" and so forth threads filling up the PvP and test server forums. So whatever balance they are chasing doesn't seem to have been achieved with the 'new and improved' racial passives.
(edit) Sorry, I thought you meant player detection in stealth. Active Stealth Detection is only functional in PvP, and has been shown to have only negative effects (giving your presence away to hidden enemies before those without Stealth Detection). My personal experience in Cyrodiil wth Rank III of Hunter's Eye was that I was unable to see crouched enemy players six feet away from me, and could only detect their presence after casting Evil Hunter. So I can't even say that it has actual benefits in PvP, either.
Dude don't blame PvP for this, no one in PvP asks for a stealth nerf on Bosmer.
The reason they removed the Stealthy passive from Bosmer and Khajiit was because of the 10% damage bonus from stealth. They gave Khajiit back the stealth, minus the damage modifier, and then decided to give Bosmer a PvP only racial skill (Stealth Detection)
This change was certainly not made with PvE in mind, at all. And nobody is blaming players specifically, although there were plenty of complaints about stealth gankers before the rework.8 -
darthgummibear_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭If they gave bosmer back their stealth, i would PAY FOR A RACE CHANGE. Hear that, ZOS?12 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »If they gave bosmer back their stealth, i would PAY FOR A RACE CHANGE. Hear that, ZOS?
I would be against them financially profiting from an unfortunate mistake, but it would certainly be better than playing a fake Bosmer.7 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »If they gave bosmer back their stealth, i would PAY FOR A RACE CHANGE. Hear that, ZOS?
I would be against them financially profiting from an unfortunate mistake, but it would certainly be better than playing a fake Bosmer.
Then again, we need to reward them backtracking and listening to feedback...This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.6 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If they do.
Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.2 -
wedgebert✭✭✭✭✭Cundu_Ertur wrote: »If they do.
They did. First they said they wanted lore friendly changes and then they backtracked by removing Bosmer from the game.9 -
Left4Daud✭✭✭✭✭
✭Honestly they probably put this thread on ignore back in February and haven’t looked since.2 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Honestly they probably put this thread on ignore back in February and haven’t looked since.
Well they certainly noticed the uproar about unblockable/undodgeable Silence with Incapacitating Strike. So they do respond to feedback when they choose to.
I can't completely give in to pessimism yet. Somebody has to care about lore and racial (passive) discrimination. Somebody in authority must be able to see that only giving one race a completely useless passive in PvE is not fair to the majority of Bosmer players. What if they took the 10% sprint speed bonus away from Orc and replaced it with +10% increase in siege repair efficiency? Bet that would go over well.12 -
Left4Daud✭✭✭✭✭
✭“In addition to their increased sprint speed, we’ve decided to give Orcs a 2 meter reduction to stealth detection. We want players to be able to fulfill the Wood Orc racial identity.”
Oh, Wood Elves live in the Valenwood too? Who knew!
-ZOS, probably4 -
jarydf✭✭✭✭Sigh
I left for 2 months and they still have not given the Bosmer back their stealth?
Just give them their thing back ffs...13 -
Alaya✭✭✭
https://youtu.be/tPO6dg3Dyec
On a scale of 1 to broken, how broken is this? User is wearing 5 for Night Mother's Embrace, 4 for Vesture of Darloc Brae, and 3 for Night Terror. It's not the sets that are broken, it's the fact that only Khajiit can get away with this.11
This discussion has been closed.