kirinsosodepub19_ESO wrote: »

This thread is kinda sorta a whole lotta, about breaking lore; nothing to describe with the adjective, slight, anywhere.

My point is SE is not breaking lore, just a promise. In this case is apples and oranges.

How about this then? Here's some actual evidence that ZoS are breaking lore. Not about Bosmer but still, here's proof they are willing to break lore. When they stood up on stage and told everyone "They pay attention to the lore." said in the race change thread on PTS "We want to preserve established lore." That's not what we are seeing.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462221/argonians-losing-their-resistance-to-poison-an-open-letter/p1

Koronach wrote: »

kirinsosodepub19_ESO wrote: »

This thread is kinda sorta a whole lotta, about breaking lore; nothing to describe with the adjective, slight, anywhere.

My point is SE is not breaking lore, just a promise. In this case is apples and oranges.

How about this then? Here's some actual evidence that ZoS are breaking lore. Not about Bosmer but still, here's proof they are willing to break lore. When they stood up on stage and told everyone "They pay attention to the lore." said in the race change thread on PTS "We want to preserve established lore." That's not what we are seeing.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462221/argonians-losing-their-resistance-to-poison-an-open-letter/p1

SE=Square Enix. I just was commenting on the post before mine. They've had gender exclusive races (their lore)

The irony is, just how really similar is disregarding long established lore, having engendered trust from your audience, to flat out breaking a fully archived promise you made to your audience? It's good you brought that point up @Koronach , because it definitely helps with understanding the answer.

slightly edited for clarity

Seraphayel wrote: »

FYI:

In the upcoming Final Fantasy XIV expansion called "Shadowbringers" SquareEnix decided to deliver two gender-locked races when they stated years ago gender-locked races would never be a thing. The community is not very pleased by that and voices its concerns in the forums. That's a topic where community outrage is understandable and there is a lot and I mean a lot of support. You can check the FF XIV forums for that:

On the only female race: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/385710-Male-Viera-as-a-playable-character!-show-your-support (initial post has almost 1550 likes, the thread has over 219 pages)

On the only male race: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/385999-Female-Hrothgar-as-a-playable-race.-Show-your-support! (initial post has more than 1000 likes and 50 pages)

And there are several more threads in the scope of the mentioned two.

Why do I bring this up in this thread? To compare a reasonable outrage and one that has barely any reason to exist. Support for the different topics shows that too. Bosmer losing stealth can easily be adjusted by changing equipment and adapting. That's it. The racial change might be questionable from a lore standpoint but in the end it's totally negligible. That's the reason why ZOS has decided to ignore this thread as of now. Oh and for sure by the very small support this topic gets from the community.

In your opinion.. Why do you keep putting condescending words into ZOS' mouth? Why do you think that you speak for them? This thread obviously triggers your anger and I suggest you stop adding irrelevant comments just to attack it's existence.

This thread is breaking no forum rules as far as I am aware. If you feel it is, report it and move on and find happiness in your life.

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Pffff, they're always good for another 2 pages of posts.

edit to add: we couldn't have made it past the Outfits Megathread without them!

#Roadto60

max_only wrote: »

I’ve been playing Elder Scrolls Blades. There isn’t any mechanic for range or stealth attacks so they gave Bosmer 15% Poison Resistance and 5% Damage with Abilities.

I don’t recommend it, it’s an unfinished cash grab. And I don’t say that lightly.

Hopefully the mobile team doesn’t come over here or else we’ll have to buy our stealth back with gems.

Shh, our devs might hear you!

I really don't get why some people get so worked up about our thread. It's not like they were getting rashes or headaches from Bosmer having a bonus to stealth before Wrathstone, so what is their problem with people wanting it back? Or am I missing an older thread complaining about Bosmer stealth being OP but Khajiit stealth being totally fine?

Eitherway, to get back to what we were discussing before the weird digression, I wouldn't like a new stealth skill line if it meant that Bosmer would lose their stealth racial passives for good. There has to be ties to the race there, otherwise Bosmer is only left with being "good at sustain" which they have to share with Redguards. Adding a stealth component to racials makes achieving uniqueness of playstyle easier.
Prior to Wrathstone, Altmer were focused on damage and Bretons on sustain. Now that Bretons are good at damage too, ZOS probably thought that they needed to increase their differences again and gave them the stamina passive. If it would be quite neat if it didn't go against the lore that much and had more consistency behind its explanation. Bosmer and Redguards are even closer together in terms of theme as long as stealth isn't part of the Bosmer identity within ESO! S
ince Khajiit are hybrid and focused on crits, I think they are already quite distinguished enough from Bosmer so that returning the stealth radius wouldn't hurt them while also separating Redguard and Bosmer more distinctly.

I continue to be worried and hope that ZOS' mysterious and ominous future plans are a whole lot better than the last attempt.

As a thought, how would you like it if each race had a unique version of the supposed stealth skill/passive line? I feel that would work well as it doesn't interfere with the combat related racial passives. I can imagine that players who don't engage in stealth wouldn't be too thrilled about having to unlock a stealth passive first before they can get to the juicy stuff like stam regen. Having an aspect of the racial identity separated from the "traditional racial passives" could work as long as it is treated with care.

Bosmers are still good at stealing because they can detect the object they're stealing even when it's in stealth!

I really hope I don't need the /s on this one...

Alaya wrote: »

I would really like to see Hunter's Eye fixed to be lore friendly and not have literally one of the worst passives in the entire game like we have now. There's no reason to put points in it, even the roll bonus is useless.

Since it is the "first passive" it's probably meant to have a small impact, which translates in the common tongue to being useless. With the stamina cost of dodgeroll, it really does have only a small impact to the point that you shouldn't try to make use of it unless you have another reason to dodgeroll. At which point I have to ask, why have it in the first place?
At least Altmer will be using class skills on any build, while you can go through an entire fight without needing to dodgeroll once. Meanwhile Redguards get 8% reduced weapon costs and 15% reduced snare effectiveness in the same slot.

Despite the overall improvement (except for Argonians I guess), the current balance seems weird. ZOS wanted the passives to become increasingly more powerful, but they have very different rates of scaling. If we take the Redguard, then their first passives is far more powerful than the Bosmer's first (hunter's eye), then Bosmer get the better second passive thanks to their poison resistance on top of the 2k stam they have in common and then their third passive Bosmer is stronger again but it's balanced because the Redguard's first passive makes it equal? So, does that mean Hunter's Eye sucks because the 258 regen are too strong? If Hunter's Eye can't pack too much of a punch for combat balance, why have it be combat related at all? Oh well, at least we still have a the bonus to stealth... Nevermind.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Since it is the "first passive" it's probably meant to have a small impact, which translates in the common tongue to being useless. With the stamina cost of dodgeroll, it really does have only a small impact to the point that you shouldn't try to make use of it unless you have another reason to dodgeroll. At which point I have to ask, why have it in the first place?
At least Altmer will be using class skills on any build, while you can go through an entire fight without needing to dodgeroll once. Meanwhile Redguards get 8% reduced weapon costs and 15% reduced snare effectiveness in the same slot.

Despite the overall improvement (except for Argonians I guess), the current balance seems weird. ZOS wanted the passives to become increasingly more powerful, but they have very different rates of scaling. If we take the Redguard, then their first passives is far more powerful than the Bosmer's first (hunter's eye), then Bosmer get the better second passive thanks to their poison resistance on top of the 2k stam they have in common and then their third passive Bosmer is stronger again but it's balanced because the Redguard's first passive makes it equal? So, does that mean Hunter's Eye sucks because the 258 regen are too strong? If Hunter's Eye can't pack too much of a punch for combat balance, why have it be combat related at all? Oh well, at least we still have a the bonus to stealth... Nevermind.

Summary of reasons why Hunter's Eye sucks

1: It took away the only core racial identity the Bosmer had, that of being a stealthy race of thieves. Their aptitude with bows is not represented in game since having an XP bonus to the bow line is not the same as being a good archer. Both Orcs and Dunmer are better archers since they get actual bonuses to bow (weapon) damage.

2: The damage/movement bonus from hunter's eye is very weak and expensive to activate. This makes sense in that Bosmer are a sustain race and they didn't want to give a damage bonus to a sustain race (similar to taking away the Altmer magicka recovery since they're a damage race). It's actually a major DPS lose to dodge roll if you don't need to, so Bosmer get weaker if they try to keep HE active. So in return for losing our core identity, we got a very weak passive that doesn't make a lick of sense for Bosmer and actually better fits Khajiit (they were the top acrobatics race until Skyrim removed acrobatics as a skill).

3: Stealth detection is 100% useless in PvE. There are no stealthed NPCs that you can detect. So they said "stealth wasn't always useful in PvE because some enemies can't be stealthed by, so in return here's a skill that instead of only being usable 10% of the time, is never usable".

4: In PvP it's a negligible bonus. Why choose Bosmer for 3m of stealth detection when I can drink a detection pot for 20m? It's like choosing Redguard for their snare reduction except even less useful.

5: In PvP the bonus stealth detection actually makes it harder for the Bosmer to sneak around because other stealthed enemies will know the Bosmer is nearby from an even greater distance. The Hidden Eye indicator starts to open the closer you are to being discovered. So if normal stealth detection is 5m and the eye starts opening at 8m, a Bosmer has 8m of detection, but the eye opens at 11m. In lore, we're the most stealthy race, in game we're the least.

6: Given the low levels of boss resistance in end game PvE content (9.1k and 18.2k for normal/vet), an extra 1500 pen isn't helpful because you're at or close to the pen cap when you take party buffs and debuffs into account. This means that, in combination with #3, Hunter's Eye is a PvP only talent. Bosmer are already at/near the bottom of stamina DPS races, why further punish them with one less passive compared to other races (with the possible exception of Altmer, Spell Recharge is pretty much PvP only too).

I don't think the passives are really meant to get more powerful as you go down. Breton and Orc both start with max resources, In fact, all the Breton passives are strong. Dunmer have their 2nd passive being the weakest.

I think it's just bad game design combined with not caring about lore (which is why it happened when the loremaster position was empty)

I really don't see how ZOS can fix this mess without going back to the racials again. Imagine if they made a mistake like that in their class update with Elsweyr. "Looks like we completely broke DK. Well, I guess that's something for Update 23 where we'll (probably) add a new mystery feature that is supposed to remedy that, but still leaves DK in the sorry state we left them".
Somehow I can't see them doing that because the outrage is always greater whenever it is about classes and "meaningful" gameplay like PvP and PvE - not something silly, unimportant and niche as stealth.

Oh well, let's hope they surprise us and whatever they have in store is actually really good and fixes Bosmer identity the right way.

Jaraal wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Since it is the "first passive" it's probably meant to have a small impact, which translates in the common tongue to being useless. With the stamina cost of dodgeroll, it really does have only a small impact to the point that you shouldn't try to make use of it unless you have another reason to dodgeroll. At which point I have to ask, why have it in the first place?
At least Altmer will be using class skills on any build, while you can go through an entire fight without needing to dodgeroll once. Meanwhile Redguards get 8% reduced weapon costs and 15% reduced snare effectiveness in the same slot.

Despite the overall improvement (except for Argonians I guess), the current balance seems weird. ZOS wanted the passives to become increasingly more powerful, but they have very different rates of scaling. If we take the Redguard, then their first passives is far more powerful than the Bosmer's first (hunter's eye), then Bosmer get the better second passive thanks to their poison resistance on top of the 2k stam they have in common and then their third passive Bosmer is stronger again but it's balanced because the Redguard's first passive makes it equal? So, does that mean Hunter's Eye sucks because the 258 regen are too strong? If Hunter's Eye can't pack too much of a punch for combat balance, why have it be combat related at all? Oh well, at least we still have a the bonus to stealth... Nevermind.

Summary of reasons why Hunter's Eye sucks

1: It took away the only core racial identity the Bosmer had, that of being a stealthy race of thieves. Their aptitude with bows is not represented in game since having an XP bonus to the bow line is not the same as being a good archer. Both Orcs and Dunmer are better archers since they get actual bonuses to bow (weapon) damage.

2: The damage/movement bonus from hunter's eye is very weak and expensive to activate. This makes sense in that Bosmer are a sustain race and they didn't want to give a damage bonus to a sustain race (similar to taking away the Altmer magicka recovery since they're a damage race). It's actually a major DPS lose to dodge roll if you don't need to, so Bosmer get weaker if they try to keep HE active. So in return for losing our core identity, we got a very weak passive that doesn't make a lick of sense for Bosmer and actually better fits Khajiit (they were the top acrobatics race until Skyrim removed acrobatics as a skill).

3: Stealth detection is 100% useless in PvE. There are no stealthed NPCs that you can detect. So they said "stealth wasn't always useful in PvE because some enemies can't be stealthed by, so in return here's a skill that instead of only being usable 10% of the time, is never usable".

4: In PvP it's a negligible bonus. Why choose Bosmer for 3m of stealth detection when I can drink a detection pot for 20m? It's like choosing Redguard for their snare reduction except even less useful.

5: In PvP the bonus stealth detection actually makes it harder for the Bosmer to sneak around because other stealthed enemies will know the Bosmer is nearby from an even greater distance. The Hidden Eye indicator starts to open the closer you are to being discovered. So if normal stealth detection is 5m and the eye starts opening at 8m, a Bosmer has 8m of detection, but the eye opens at 11m. In lore, we're the most stealthy race, in game we're the least.

6: Given the low levels of boss resistance in end game PvE content (9.1k and 18.2k for normal/vet), an extra 1500 pen isn't helpful because you're at or close to the pen cap when you take party buffs and debuffs into account. This means that, in combination with #3, Hunter's Eye is a PvP only talent. Bosmer are already at/near the bottom of stamina DPS races, why further punish them with one less passive compared to other races (with the possible exception of Altmer, Spell Recharge is pretty much PvP only too).

I don't think the passives are really meant to get more powerful as you go down. Breton and Orc both start with max resources, In fact, all the Breton passives are strong. Dunmer have their 2nd passive being the weakest.

I think it's just bad game design combined with not caring about lore (which is why it happened when the loremaster position was empty)

Well summarized, and it explains why they remain silent on the issue. I mean, how can you even counter that? I’ve tried playing devil’s advocate, and all I can come up with is “Well, we wanted to make Bosmer unique from the other races!”

Other than that, I got nothin’!

Nothing here either. Playing devil's advocate is quite hard when you have to try and defend a mistake. Pretty much why I left the debating team in school. When one side is basing their entire view on a false assumption, then all you can do is hope nobody points that out. Otherwise everything starts crumbling.
So unless ZOS comes out and tells us something we don't already know that could change our views, the only thing they can do is admit that it was a mistake and try to fix it. Other game companies did it too and there is no shame behind that nor will your sales go down and nobody will write bad news articles about you. You do regain some lost favor with your customers though. Prolonging the silence will only hurt them further and nobody likes uncertainty!

Another interesting thing about that photo is that it also shows how people tend to think of Khajiit vs Bosmer.

Bosmer: cannibalistic theives
Khajiit: "Khajiit Has Wares, If You Have Coin"

That stealth tree they are/were planning, if it was coming out in Elsweyr I would think it would have been more developed for the Games Day meet up.

If they do come out with the tree, I would think it would be in update 24. (Elsweyr is update 23 I believe.)

That all being said the PTS drops on the 15th I think, so maybe we will see something then?

Edit; As was pointed out below, Elsweyr is update 22, so maybe a stealth tree in 23 then?

wedgebert wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

That all being said the PTS drops on the 15th I think, so maybe we will see something then?

Probably just see the stealth detection go from 3m to 2m, because it's obviously ruining the stealth game for other players.

Oh yeah, I'm waiting for that inevitability.

I think Elsweyr is Update 22. Wheeler started a new sticky about Combat Direction, and it appears next round is going to focus on class active abilities. So unless they make stealth a class ability (and my head would explode then) I'm thinking not Update 22.

Link: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/466792/update-22-combat-direction