Ogou wrote: »

Other way around. ZOS' goal was to give players more options when they are choosing a race for a specific role not to give races more gameplay options.

Well they certainly narrowed the playing field for good justice play by making Khajiits the only really good sneaking race..

If you're a Bosmer, how did you used to steal that one of a kind item? Un-neek up on it! (oh... wait.. can't do that anymore! (waits patiently for Ogou's traditional response)

Ogou wrote: »

They didn't have to that for Morrowind, they didn't have to do that for Summerset, why would they be doing that now for Elsweyr when according to ZOS themselves it has been the most requested region for a while now?

Ogou wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Korlian wrote: »

Pretty much all the fun is gone for me since I can't play the way I want to play anymore. All attempts to play since this change has lead to frustration and quitting the game everytime I try logging in. My fun has turned to frustration, it's sad. I wish I could refund my subscription that I got just before this change happen, not having fun, at all... so a total waste of money.

Has anyone even found a way to play stealth close to before this change? Is it even possible? (I'm not racechanging to Khajiit, ever.)

It was a planned decision on their part to force people to convert to Khajiit to break down resistance to playing the race, in order to sell more copies of the upcoming Khajiit chapter. Unfortunately, it seems to be backfiring on them. Can't buy a new DLC if you aren't playing.

They didn't have to that for Morrowind, they didn't have to do that for Summerset, why would they be doing that now for Elsweyr when according to ZOS themselves it has been the most requested region for a while now?

Because many players in this game can be very 'humanoid-centric' and have a prejudice against playing what they think of as 'furries' or 'lizards'. That doesn't exist to the same extent for Dunmer or Altmer, that I have seen. I could see them using this as an opportunity to try to overcome this.

tyggerbob wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Other way around. ZOS' goal was to give players more options when they are choosing a race for a specific role not to give races more gameplay options.

Well they certainly narrowed the playing field for good justice play by making Khajiits the only really good sneaking race..

If you're a Bosmer, how did you used to steal that one of a kind item? Un-neek up on it! (oh... wait.. can't do that anymore! (waits patiently for Ogou's traditional response)

True, but they did not approach the changes with the goal of opening up the justice gameplay. That was more of a consequence of the weird (and imho wrong) way they decided to make the different races unique. On paper, they accomplished their goals. They just broke some people's fun with it too, in typical ZOS fashion.

Goddammit Bob!!!

tyggerbob wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

They didn't have to that for Morrowind, they didn't have to do that for Summerset, why would they be doing that now for Elsweyr when according to ZOS themselves it has been the most requested region for a while now?

Ogou wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Korlian wrote: »

Pretty much all the fun is gone for me since I can't play the way I want to play anymore. All attempts to play since this change has lead to frustration and quitting the game everytime I try logging in. My fun has turned to frustration, it's sad. I wish I could refund my subscription that I got just before this change happen, not having fun, at all... so a total waste of money.

Has anyone even found a way to play stealth close to before this change? Is it even possible? (I'm not racechanging to Khajiit, ever.)

It was a planned decision on their part to force people to convert to Khajiit to break down resistance to playing the race, in order to sell more copies of the upcoming Khajiit chapter. Unfortunately, it seems to be backfiring on them. Can't buy a new DLC if you aren't playing.

They didn't have to that for Morrowind, they didn't have to do that for Summerset, why would they be doing that now for Elsweyr when according to ZOS themselves it has been the most requested region for a while now?

Because many players in this game can be very 'humanoid-centric' and have a prejudice against playing what they think of as 'furries' or 'lizards'. That doesn't exist to the same extent for Dunmer or Altmer, that I have seen. I could see them using this as an opportunity to try to overcome this.

True, but you don't have to be a Khajiit to play the Elsweyr chapter, just like you didn't have to be a Altmer to play Summerset. I just don't see what ZOS stands to gain from trying to make Khajiit more popular.

I agree with you, but some people want to be all in, I guess. it's all about the immersion. I heard people say they're rolling a Khajiit for the expansion.

Jaraal wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

tyggerbob wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Easy mode PvE sneak build that works on any class/race and doesn't require vampire:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=131042

5 pieces night mother's embrace armor, 5 pieces night's silence on bow bar, 4 pieces night terror on dw bar, swift jewelry and steed mundus for extra speed.

Very small detection radius on dw bar and no sneak speed penalty on bow bar. Good movement speed in general and sneak cost ist basically non existent. People who claim stealthy playstyle is destroyed because of one passive have no clue how to create a build it seems.

I wouldn't go so far as to say destroyed. And yes I have that same build.. but when you combined it with the passive, Bosmers were nearly invisible

So what, now its just easy mode instead of super easy mode with such a build? I'm not even sure why people want to be almost invisible, where is the challenge in that? I completed both dark brotherhood and thieves guild on a heavy armor non-vampire nord (including heist and sacrament achievements). At least I had to play somewhat careful doing it this way.

I understand that some players dislike this change, but they should stick to the facts. Stealth gameplay is manageable on any race and I don't see that ever changing in the future. Claiming otherwise is just dishonest.

The facts are that Bosmer has been the master of stealth for 20 years. Now they are tied for worst stealth race in the game. And a lot of people rolled wood elves because they liked the tradition of stealth associated with it. Now ZOS is revising history for no apparent reason, other than to make people who prefer that playstyle switch to cats.

If you have a better explanation, let's hear it!

Tied for the worst stealth race is simply BS. 1st they get the biggest stam pool of all races tied with Orc, Imperial and Redguard. 2nd the 3% cost reduction of imperial is pretty much irrelevant, because with all the other (much higher) stealth cost reductions you get, sneak cost becomes minimal anyway. You get 49% reduction from 7 pieces medium, another 40% from legerdemain, up to 35% from CP and up to 77% from sets, so how is 3% relevant? It's not unlikely that in case of the build I posted the sneak cost would be exactly the same for both Bosmer and imperial because of rounding (8 on the bow bar, 5 on the dw bar).

The second Imperial sustain passive, as well as the Redguard passive require you to deal damage, so they are not useful for a pure stealth build, while Orc doesnt has any sustain passives. The bosmer passive stam recovery on the other hand kicks in the moment you stop moving in sneak (even if its just a second). Its simply more useful for a stealth build.

So tell me how Bosmer is tied for the worst stealh race in the game, because to me they look like the second best choice.

The reason why ZOS did this change is also pretty obvious. They wanted to give each race unique flavor passives. Which meant that either Kahjiit or Bosmer had to lose the stealth bonus. Same thing happened to Argonian/Bosmer with the disease/poison immunity. I personally have the opinion that this was in general a good idea, but I agree that the new Bosmer detect radius is pretty underwhelming. They should definitely get something more useful.

HankTwo wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

tyggerbob wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Easy mode PvE sneak build that works on any class/race and doesn't require vampire:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=131042

5 pieces night mother's embrace armor, 5 pieces night's silence on bow bar, 4 pieces night terror on dw bar, swift jewelry and steed mundus for extra speed.

Very small detection radius on dw bar and no sneak speed penalty on bow bar. Good movement speed in general and sneak cost ist basically non existent. People who claim stealthy playstyle is destroyed because of one passive have no clue how to create a build it seems.

I wouldn't go so far as to say destroyed. And yes I have that same build.. but when you combined it with the passive, Bosmers were nearly invisible

So what, now its just easy mode instead of super easy mode with such a build? I'm not even sure why people want to be almost invisible, where is the challenge in that? I completed both dark brotherhood and thieves guild on a heavy armor non-vampire nord (including heist and sacrament achievements). At least I had to play somewhat careful doing it this way.

I understand that some players dislike this change, but they should stick to the facts. Stealth gameplay is manageable on any race and I don't see that ever changing in the future. Claiming otherwise is just dishonest.

The facts are that Bosmer has been the master of stealth for 20 years. Now they are tied for worst stealth race in the game. And a lot of people rolled wood elves because they liked the tradition of stealth associated with it. Now ZOS is revising history for no apparent reason, other than to make people who prefer that playstyle switch to cats.

If you have a better explanation, let's hear it!

Tied for the worst stealth race is simply BS. 1st they get the biggest stam pool of all races tied with Orc, Imperial and Redguard. 2nd the 3% cost reduction of imperial is pretty much irrelevant, because with all the other (much higher) stealth cost reductions you get, sneak cost becomes minimal anyway. You get 49% reduction from 7 pieces medium, another 40% from legerdemain, up to 35% from CP and up to 77% from sets, so how is 3% relevant? It's not unlikely that in case of the build I posted the sneak cost would be exactly the same for both Bosmer and imperial because of rounding (8 on the bow bar, 5 on the dw bar).

The second Imperial sustain passive, as well as the Redguard passive require you to deal damage, so they are not useful for a pure stealth build, while Orc doesnt has any sustain passives. The bosmer passive stam recovery on the other hand kicks in the moment you stop moving in sneak (even if its just a second). Its simply more useful for a stealth build.

So tell me how Bosmer is tied for the worst stealh race in the game, because to me they look like the second best choice.

The reason why ZOS did this change is also pretty obvious. They wanted to give each race unique flavor passives. Which meant that either Kahjiit or Bosmer had to lose the stealth bonus. Same thing happened to Argonian/Bosmer with the disease/poison immunity. I personally have the opinion that this was in general a good idea, but I agree that the new Bosmer detect radius is pretty underwhelming. They should definitely get something more useful.

It's bad idea when the in game lore of ESO states differently.

HankTwo wrote: »

kirinsosodepub19_ESO wrote: »

@HankTwo Said
",,,I personally have the opinion that this was in general a good idea, but I agree that the new Bosmer detect radius is pretty underwhelming. They should definitely get something more useful. "

Yea like uhhh... idk, their stealth passive back. Like what is in the Title of the thread, which is what this thread is all about. No idea why it's so difficult for some people to understand that that's all we're asking for because that's why we played bosmer because that was and always has been Their Flavor.

I was just explaining to Jaraal why I think ZOS did this change, since he asked me, you know? And btw, the idea behind a forum is to have people with different viewpoints sharing their opinions and ideas. If you want a meeting place for bosmer players who dislike this change and nobody else create a private discord.

"Private meeting place, only" or "you stop talking in our thread" was no where in my statement. You also could not possibly derive that from anything I said. You want to talk to Jaraal directly and not say anything that can be quoted in public. You could take your own advice, I guess. I'm just following this thread because I'm interested in it. It affects me. When I'm moved enough to type, well that means I'm moved enough to type. lol which isn't very often.


tl;dr don't add words to my posts please, thank you

kirinsosodepub19_ESO wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

kirinsosodepub19_ESO wrote: »

@HankTwo Said
",,,I personally have the opinion that this was in general a good idea, but I agree that the new Bosmer detect radius is pretty underwhelming. They should definitely get something more useful. "

Yea like uhhh... idk, their stealth passive back. Like what is in the Title of the thread, which is what this thread is all about. No idea why it's so difficult for some people to understand that that's all we're asking for because that's why we played bosmer because that was and always has been Their Flavor.

I was just explaining to Jaraal why I think ZOS did this change, since he asked me, you know? And btw, the idea behind a forum is to have people with different viewpoints sharing their opinions and ideas. If you want a meeting place for bosmer players who dislike this change and nobody else create a private discord.

"Private meeting place, only" or "you stop talking in our thread" was no where in my statement. You also could not possibly derive that from anything I said. You want to talk to Jaraal directly and not say anything that can be quoted in public. You could take your own advice, I guess. I'm just following this thread because I'm interested in it. It affects me. When I'm moved enough to type, well that means I'm moved enough to type. lol which isn't very often.


tl;dr don't add words to my posts please, thank you

Your initial reply wasnt really constructive to begin with, implying that I have difficulties understanding the whole premise of this thread. I'm fully aware that many of the players who posted in this thread just want the old stealth passive back, that much is obvious. Doesn't change my opinion, though.

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Korlian wrote: »

Has anyone even found a way to play stealth close to before this change? Is it even possible? (I'm not racechanging to Khajiit, ever.)

I did the grind, grind, grind for night mother's embrace gear in Deshaan and kept my Night Silence gear for my two stamina Bosmer, and got Night Terror jewelry from Stonefalls with Shadow Dancer gear from Greenshade and 4 bits of Magnus' Gift for my goofy hybrid. That gets them all about 2/3 of what they would have before.

And what did you have to sacrifice? Are you still able to i.e. play solo with bow/dagger? Or are you squishy now? Powerless? Or close to the same as with the gear you had with the sneak racial we used to have?

Just to point out that Bosmer is not tied for worst at stealth. It's demonstrably the worst, at least when taking PvP into account (which is the only place the stealth detection works anyways).

Obviously Khajiit are now #1.
Imperials are #2 with the sneak cost reduction (can't use stam recovery while moving and when stopped it comes back super fast outside of combat anyways)
Every race [except] Bosmer tied for #3.
Bosmer is solidly last place.

Here's the reasoning, let's say you want to sneak into an area as a Bosmer.

If there is a single guard, then you will be detected just like any other non-Khajiit player. So long as you avoid the standard detection radius, you can cause whatever mischief you had planned.

If there are multiple guards, nothing changes except it becomes more difficult.

Now if there is a stealthed guard, your stealth detection bonus is going to cause his Hidden indicator to begin opening sooner than it would have normally. In fact, you won't even realize the stealthed person is there (unless they're also a Bosmer) until you get closer. If the stealthed enemy notices this, they can tell their friends to fire off a Magelight or drink a detection pot sooner than for any other race.

So now a Stealthed Bosmer is a liability when trying to sneak past other players.

Note, that this is technically true of all stealthing players who have reduced stealth radiuses. It's just now instead of only having to worry about a reduced stealth radius, Bosmer have an extra detection radius on top of that.

I'd be curious for some experiments to see just how far away from a Bomser your hidden eye starts opening compared to other races.

HankTwo wrote: »

PvE stealth gameplay in this game is completely uncompetitive. Thats why as long as you can accomplish it with a reasonable difficulty its fine balancing wise (and imo stealth is very easy compared to other content in this game).

Endgame PvE (trial leaderboards) and PvP on the other hand is competitive. Thats why balancing classes and races is very important. If stealth gameplay would be an important competitive part of the game, then the racial stealth passive of Kahjiit (and old Bosmer) would be considered OP and nerfed.

Emphasis mine.

Ok, then please explain how removing the stealth radius from only the Bosmer balanced anything and how returning it would unbalance anything in the competitive game. If it is completely noncompetitive and unimportant - why remove it?

That is just one of the questions we have been waiting to have answered. There was no good reason for removing the Bosmer stealth radius and the one that was given "stealth isn't a universal mechanic" was contradictory bunk - because they replaced it with something even less universal.

HankTwo wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

PvE stealth gameplay in this game is completely uncompetitive. Thats why as long as you can accomplish it with a reasonable difficulty its fine balancing wise (and imo stealth is very easy compared to other content in this game).

Endgame PvE (trial leaderboards) and PvP on the other hand is competitive. Thats why balancing classes and races is very important. If stealth gameplay would be an important competitive part of the game, then the racial stealth passive of Kahjiit (and old Bosmer) would be considered OP and nerfed.

Emphasis mine.

Ok, then please explain how removing the stealth radius from only the Bosmer balanced anything and how returning it would unbalance anything in the competitive game. If it is completely noncompetitive and unimportant - why remove it?

That is just one of the questions we have been waiting to have answered. There was no good reason for removing the Bosmer stealth radius and the one that was given "stealth isn't a universal mechanic" was contradictory bunk - because they replaced it with something even less universal.

As I wrote in an earlier post my impression is that ZOS wanted to give each race unique flavor passives.

Then, imo, they failed miserably by taking a flavor passive that Bosmer have had for 20+ years* and tossing it for the sake of "uniqueness" - as if Bosmer and Khajiit were not unique enough already.

It seems to me the uniqueness problem was really only that the passive for both races was called "Stealthy" and ZOS just tossed a dart at the board and Bosmer came out the loser. The rename, plus the other changes were plenty to make the races unique without gutting the core racial identity of Bosmer.

I wish I had your faith in ZOS' reasoning, I truly do - but the whole thing was low effort nonsense and months of feedback pointing that out were summarily ignored.

* And seriously, don't even get me started on this whole 25 Years of TES!!!! celebration they keep touting when they didn't give a thought about 25 years of Bosmer history.


Edit: And I see your edit and acknowledge, thanks.

HankTwo wrote: »

The reason why I posted in this thread were misconceptions like this: 'stealth gameplay as a bosmer is destroyed', or 'bosmer are now tied for worst stealth race in the game'. They are simply untrue, so I felt like debunking them.

You didn't debunk anything though. You literally cannot play a Bosmer thief as anything other than average now. In PvE, both Khajiit and Imperial have advantages to stealth gameplay while Bosmer do not. This cannot be overcome by putting on sets or changing playstyles because everyone else put those same sets on (rendering Bosmer average still) and changing playstyle is the exact thing many of us are complaining about.

Bosmer racial identity is that of a stealthy thief. Go check the lore. It's what other races think of when they think Bosmer and it's how the Bosmer think of themselves. We literally cannot play Bosmer as Bosmer anymore than can Nord can play the best magicka user in of Tamriel.

As to being the worst stealth race, see my post right before yours. In PvP, Bosmer are literally the worst at stealth.