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Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

  • Ratzkifal
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    layers repeating the same points in a circle.
    Commented, but how do you upvote now? Maybe it's my browser but I don't see a way to do it. edit: worked it out.

    It'll be obvious which one is me.

    2nd edit: This is no longer an open letter but a megathread.

    No, it is the same points being pushed around in a circle for 40 pages.

    @alanmatillab16_ESO Because all of them are valid and we have yet to hear a single valid counter argument in any of the charges.

    Sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting "I won't hear you until you agree with me" doesn't count. So many are claiming their class was destroyed, their playstyle destroyed and such like just because they have lost that passive. If that passive was the only factor that decided whether or not a class existed then there would be no other races being thieves would there? yet clearly there are therefore it comes down to the player to make a particular race successful at being sneaky.

    @alanmatillab16_ESO Alright, suppose your argument is right and that I have been sticking fingers in my ears up until now all along, then I invite you to bring forth an argument that I did not consider beforehand that has indeed already been brought up by the "contra stealth" side of the discussion. Since I was not listening and all. Obviously I must have missed something important.

    And before you say I didn't listen to the rest of your message (unlike a certain someone that edited out and left unanswered all the questions I asked you). Nobody in this thread is claiming they lost their class. Nobody is even talking about classes in here.
    If your point is actually that we claim a playstyle stands and falls with one passive, then let me answer by asking another question. If Altmer lost all their magicka and magic related passives, could Altmer still spec into magicka? Of course they could, nobody said they couldn't, but that is not the point being discussed!
    Taking away what makes a race special at a certain aspect of the game removes flavor and meaning from the race selection. If these boni are not based in lore, then they are arbitrary and there is no reason to have them in the first place. If we accept arbitrary racial passives in this game, then it makes absolutely no sense to tie these passives to race at all anymore, at which point they could be removed completely and their power be put somewhere more meaningful, which ultimately leads to less customization options.
    On your last point, I'd like you to take that same logic and go to an endgame PvE player and tell them "It comes down to the player to make a particular race successful at being mag DPS so being Orc is totally fine." There are Orcs playing mag builds after all. Just because something exists, doesn't mean it's good, nor should it automatically be the standard at which we measure ourselves. If you want to be an Orc mage, then that's indeed fine, but you should know that you are not doing yourself a favor in terms of high performance.
    Of course I could play justice gameplay with my Imperial, but I chose my Bosmer because I wanted to be sneakier than the rest and have an easier time doing it. And it's not that I am feeling entitled to always get what I want whenever I want. There were solid and completely valid reasons that made me think being a Bosmer would always give me an edge at stealth. On my Imperial I am struggling to do this content because I am playing tank and craft and don't want to carry two sets of gear with me in case I spontaneously feel like stealing. On my Bosmer I didn't need to worry about that. Regular medium armor would suffice thanks to the racial passive and since I was always using medium armor anyway, there was no need for a second set of gear. I would always have the freedom to go stealing wherever and whenever I pleased and be good at it. Now I have the same problems on that character as on my tank if I just want to be as effective as before.

    I picked my race because I had an expectation about its performance based on the lore and previous games. Changing the core aspects of a race for no apparent reason later down the road is a no-go, because you can't expect people to completely scrap and abandon the characters they put their hearts into just to stay as effective as they had always been and have every right to keep being!
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
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  • Kater_Murr
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    you can't expect people to completely scrap and abandon the characters they put their hearts into just to stay as effective as they had always been and have every right to keep being!

    This is the part which gets me most. Did ZOS really expected that everyone would just make their favourite, thought-out, meticulously handcrafted characters Khajiit? I, for example, redid my last character, Dunmer Nightblade, like four or five times before I settled for her final look; hell, in April of 2014 I replayed all of the Khenarthi's Roost on my main, Altmer sorc, because I didn't like the form of his nose.
    Edited by Kater_Murr on March 21, 2019 9:57AM
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  • Cundu_Ertur
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    I was annoyed at getting caught repeatedly during Jorunn-Raht's quest for the event. smh.

    Also, if you don't like how your toon looks you can use the race change token just to switch to the same race and redo the look.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
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  • Ratzkifal
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    I was annoyed at getting caught repeatedly during Jorunn-Raht's quest for the event. smh.

    Also, if you don't like how your toon looks you can use the race change token just to switch to the same race and redo the look.

    I remember how I tried to take the apples unnoticed last year and how long it took me because I was doing it with my Imperial, so I didn't even attempt to go unnoticed this time.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
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  • Jaraal
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    I was annoyed at getting caught repeatedly during Jorunn-Raht's quest for the event. smh.

    Also, if you don't like how your toon looks you can use the race change token just to switch to the same race and redo the look.

    I remember how I tried to take the apples unnoticed last year and how long it took me because I was doing it with my Imperial, so I didn't even attempt to go unnoticed this time.

    ....and Imperial is now stealthier than Bosmer.


    SMH.
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
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  • Ratzkifal
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    I was annoyed at getting caught repeatedly during Jorunn-Raht's quest for the event. smh.

    Also, if you don't like how your toon looks you can use the race change token just to switch to the same race and redo the look.

    I remember how I tried to take the apples unnoticed last year and how long it took me because I was doing it with my Imperial, so I didn't even attempt to go unnoticed this time.

    ....and Imperial is now stealthier than Bosmer.


    SMH.

    Actually, we should do some testing on who can sustain sneak better while we are waiting for a official response.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
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  • Tasear
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    Murcrab apples make me remember that lost passive....
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  • Sylvermynx
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    Weird thing.... I did that quest on both accounts this morning. On my redguard mains. I did NOT get a bounty, nor did I get booted out of stealth.
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  • BlueRaven
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    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    Weird thing.... I did that quest on both accounts this morning. On my redguard mains. I did NOT get a bounty, nor did I get booted out of stealth.

    There is a moving NPC that can spot you, I believe.

    I don't even bother sneaking, I just pay the bounty.

    •••

    T-Minus 7 days until we hear news about Elsweyr.
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  • Jaraal
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Jaraal wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    I was annoyed at getting caught repeatedly during Jorunn-Raht's quest for the event. smh.

    Also, if you don't like how your toon looks you can use the race change token just to switch to the same race and redo the look.

    I remember how I tried to take the apples unnoticed last year and how long it took me because I was doing it with my Imperial, so I didn't even attempt to go unnoticed this time.

    ....and Imperial is now stealthier than Bosmer.


    SMH.

    Actually, we should do some testing on who can sustain sneak better while we are waiting for a official response.

    Bosmer:

    Y'ffre's Endurance: Increase stamina recovery by 258.



    Imperial:

    Imperial Mettle: Increase Stamina by 2000.

    Red Diamond: Reduce the cost of Sneak (and all other abilities) by 3%.



    What are you expecting testing to find?
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
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  • Jaraal
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    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    Weird thing.... I did that quest on both accounts this morning. On my redguard mains. I did NOT get a bounty, nor did I get booted out of stealth.

    Remember that some animals can witness crimes and cause you to get a bounty. If you kill a man or woman in front of their pet goat in Alik'r, you will get a bounty, and the animal will run off. So watch the animals in the stable as well as the people.
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
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  • Sylvermynx
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    Yeah, I know. Stupid mechanic.... but still, I did not get a bounty.
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  • Ratzkifal
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    Weird thing.... I did that quest on both accounts this morning. On my redguard mains. I did NOT get a bounty, nor did I get booted out of stealth.

    Remember that some animals can witness crimes and cause you to get a bounty. If you kill a man or woman in front of their pet goat in Alik'r, you will get a bounty, and the animal will run off. So watch the animals in the stable as well as the people.

    Sheep: "Baah baah babaah baaaah!"
    Guard: "Thank you for your report."
    Later
    Guard: "I managed to find and arrest the criminal thanks to the detailed witness report!"
    Edited by Ratzkifal on March 22, 2019 3:46AM
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
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  • Tasear
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    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    Yeah, I know. Stupid mechanic.... but still, I did not get a bounty.

    Fine...I was poking bear with that comment. I been getting caught every year.
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  • Jaraal
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    Tasear wrote: »
    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    Yeah, I know. Stupid mechanic.... but still, I did not get a bounty.

    Fine...I was poking bear with that comment. I been getting caught every year.

    Yeah, I just did it on my best Khajiit thief, still got caught. Ran to the guard, got detained, used Clemency passive, mounted up and got the Princess, and got out of Dodge before the 60 second "all guards look the other way" timer ran out.

    Easy peasy!
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
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  • anadandy
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    That quest was always a pita. This year, out of spite, my Bosmer just went in there and didn't even try, just grabbed the apple in plain sight then walked out of the tent all "Come at me, bro!" to the guards. :)
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  • max_only
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    Last year I brouht my murderer to that tent and try to do everyone a favor by clearing out witnesses.

    Maybe instead of 3m stealth we should have 3m attitude “Whatchu gonna do?!”

    I wish they’d waited on these major changes until during the “off season”. The events bring up FOMO but my heart’s not in it. Now it’s like a chore, and a heartache to log on to my favorite characters.

    What makes it worse, is that if this was a crown store item, we’d get a direct reply. But because Bosmer is base game, we get snubbed.
    #FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
    #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
    || CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
    ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
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  • wedgebert
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    Bosmer:

    Y'ffre's Endurance: Increase stamina recovery by 258.

    Imperial:

    Imperial Mettle: Increase Stamina by 2000.

    Red Diamond: Reduce the cost of Sneak (and all other abilities) by 3%.



    What are you expecting testing to find?

    Bosmer aslo have

    Resist Affliction: Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and Poison Resistance by 2310. Gain immunity to the Poisoned status effect.

    So it really boils down to what is better for sneaking

    258 stamina recovery (plus modifiers) or 3% sneak reduction.

    But one of the big points is that even if the stamina recovery is better, it still means that Imperials have a direct bonus to stealth while Bosmer are only getting it because they have a different bonus that just happens to benefit stealth. If they decided to change how stamina recovery works while sneak, Bosmer could easily lose that as well.
    Edited by wedgebert on March 22, 2019 1:27PM
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  • tyggerbob
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    Like I said before, I wonder how many of the people they consulted actually PLAY Bosmers or do justice quests regularly?
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  • wedgebert
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    tyggerbob wrote: »
    Like I said before, I wonder how many of the people they consulted actually PLAY Bosmers or do justice quests regularly?

    I get the feeling that Bosmer are like Monks from WoW. Something that only one or two developers actually play them. And they're both Alts
    Edited by wedgebert on March 22, 2019 2:30PM
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  • max_only
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    tyggerbob wrote: »
    Like I said before, I wonder how many of the people they consulted actually PLAY Bosmers or do justice quests regularly?

    One class rep, Joy Division played a Bosmer alt. From what I gather, it was for pvp.
    #FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
    #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
    || CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
    ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
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  • BlueRaven
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    wedgebert wrote: »
    Jaraal wrote: »
    Bosmer:

    Y'ffre's Endurance: Increase stamina recovery by 258.

    Imperial:

    Imperial Mettle: Increase Stamina by 2000.

    Red Diamond: Reduce the cost of Sneak (and all other abilities) by 3%.



    What are you expecting testing to find?

    Bosmer aslo have

    Resist Affliction: Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and Poison Resistance by 2310. Gain immunity to the Poisoned status effect.

    So it really boils down to what is better for sneaking

    258 stamina recovery (plus modifiers) or 3% sneak reduction.

    But one of the big points is that even if the stamina recovery is better, it still means that Imperials have a direct bonus to stealth while Bosmer are only getting it because they have a different bonus that just happens to benefit stealth. If they decided to change how stamina recovery works while sneak, Bosmer could easily lose that as well.

    I may be mistaken on the mechanics of it, but I believe you do NOT get Stamina recovery while moving in stealth.

    So if an Imperial and Bosmer have the exact same stamina, and they kept moving at the same constant rate, the Imperial SHOULD stay in stealth longer than a Bosmer before running out of Stamina.
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  • wedgebert
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    That's what I thought too, but I never pay enough attention to know for sure.
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  • Ratzkifal
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    wedgebert wrote: »
    Jaraal wrote: »
    Bosmer:

    Y'ffre's Endurance: Increase stamina recovery by 258.

    Imperial:

    Imperial Mettle: Increase Stamina by 2000.

    Red Diamond: Reduce the cost of Sneak (and all other abilities) by 3%.



    What are you expecting testing to find?

    Bosmer aslo have

    Resist Affliction: Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and Poison Resistance by 2310. Gain immunity to the Poisoned status effect.

    So it really boils down to what is better for sneaking

    258 stamina recovery (plus modifiers) or 3% sneak reduction.

    But one of the big points is that even if the stamina recovery is better, it still means that Imperials have a direct bonus to stealth while Bosmer are only getting it because they have a different bonus that just happens to benefit stealth. If they decided to change how stamina recovery works while sneak, Bosmer could easily lose that as well.

    I may be mistaken on the mechanics of it, but I believe you do NOT get Stamina recovery while moving in stealth.

    So if an Imperial and Bosmer have the exact same stamina, and they kept moving at the same constant rate, the Imperial SHOULD stay in stealth longer than a Bosmer before running out of Stamina.

    He would get farther, yes, but once one rans out, they need to stand still to start moving again. I was simply wondering if there is a tipping point at which Bosmer are better than Imperials again. On the first stamina pool, I'd expect Imperials to take a lead, then Bosmer catch up (maybe) but the question is when does that happen.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
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  • Cundu_Ertur
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    According to Zeno, never.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
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  • wedgebert
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    Was just talking about video games with a coworker. He mentioned his favorite game of all time was Skyrim and was only kinda aware ESO existed.

    I mentioned the Bosmer changes and his immediate response was, to paraphrase, "But that's what they're known for!"
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  • Arato
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    Probably the reason you're not getting bounties if you're claiming not to is because someone else has been killing all the NPC's in the stable, getting the bounties for you.
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  • alanmatillab16_ESO
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    wedgebert wrote: »
    Was just talking about video games with a coworker. He mentioned his favorite game of all time was Skyrim and was only kinda aware ESO existed.

    I mentioned the Bosmer changes and his immediate response was, to paraphrase, "But that's what they're known for!"

    Was just talking about video games with a coworker. He mentioned his favourite game of all time was Skyrim and was only kinda aware ESO existed.

    I mentioned the Bosmer changes and his immediate response was, to paraphrase, "Can they still sneak?" and after being told "yes" the answer was "So what is the fuss about?"
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  • Cundu_Ertur
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    So, you're totally ok with them taking away ALL magic bonuses with Altmer since they could, technically, still do magic, just not as well as they could before, right? How about taking all weapon bonuses away from Orcs. They can have a cleaning bonus with featherdusters instead. They could still use weapons, after all.

    edit to add: thanks for the bump.
    Edited by Cundu_Ertur on March 22, 2019 9:09PM
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
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  • wedgebert
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    wedgebert wrote: »
    Was just talking about video games with a coworker. He mentioned his favorite game of all time was Skyrim and was only kinda aware ESO existed.

    I mentioned the Bosmer changes and his immediate response was, to paraphrase, "But that's what they're known for!"

    Was just talking about video games with a coworker. He mentioned his favourite game of all time was Skyrim and was only kinda aware ESO existed.

    I mentioned the Bosmer changes and his immediate response was, to paraphrase, "Can they still sneak?" and after being told "yes" the answer was "So what is the fuss about?"

    Oddly enough, I don't believe you.
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This discussion has been closed.