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Bosmer Racial change that is illogical and unnecessary

  • TankinatorFR
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    Tasear wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Well well well...
    I live the forum for a week, and when I come back, we are still in the same mess...
    What a surprise.

    Oh no, excuse me, there is a change ; and if you consider that changing something without improving is is great, then, this change is great...

    I really don't get it.
    Diversity for the sake of diversity is meaningless. Diversity for the sake of diversity that break the mean of things, that is even worse...
    Bosmers are stealthy, no matters if the Khajits are too.

    Yeah, tell me about it. I just learned about the race changes just before I left on a cruise. And then I had to use all of my onboard minutes patrolling the forums hoping what I read about the bosmers losing stealth was a mistake.

    What makes you enjoy bosmer stealth? Lets talk about it. Would it resolve things say if you gained penetration with stealth. It would bring the issue of pvp passive thing again... but hey they said someday... oneday they will make stealth meaningful in pve too.

    P.S Yes I think dodge roll penetration doesn't make sense. I would take penetration while moving or staying still as more nimblenesss or focus or even maybe just adding it as a stealth mechanic is right way?

    I enjoy bosmer stealth because of the stealth. That's nearly it.
    Infiltrating myself in all these dens and dungeons without caring for a single mob, just killing my target or collecting what I have been asked for, doing my job like a professionnal adventurer instead of a dumb brute dreaming of smashing things with it's hammer. I am a bosmer, not an ork...
    Getting unnoticed while wandering around in the world.
    Stealing things from the pockets of noble peoples when they are unpolite with me. (Yep, my bosmer only steal those who insult her, #characterRP).
    Stealth is a gameplay by itself, and whatever the game, I always play a stealthy elf or half elf. In fact, that is one of the reason for me to play ES games : bosmer are elves and get bonus to stealth to account for their lore.
    But yeah, one day, they will add a use for stealth detection... Yeah... I believe in it, as strong as I believe in a chicken with T-rex teeth (10/15cm if you didn't know).
    But even if next 31th of February update made it true, I am playing now, and I don't see the point of getting ride of stealth now.
    More DPS through dodge ? I fight with daggers half the time, and ZOS ask me to get away from my target to increase my DPS ? :confused:
    More stealth detection ? Well, usually, if I get into Cyrodil, that's to do some quests in stealth, so I don't care about detecting others.

    For now, I can only assume that ZOS is "offering" me 3 skill points to spend on other passives.
    Not as if I really needed more unassigned skill points.

    Also, about you suggestions, you can only attack from stealth one time per combat. Better than nothing. But, giving combat bonus while moving sound really "bosmer" to my ears.
    But ESO combat gameplay is boring, it's straight-lined powers offering really few builds options, making it uninteresting to work on efficient high-level builds (for me). I can go with a bad combat system, as long as stealth is here, because I love stealth. And here, ZOS is removing it. So basically, it is a lose/lose for me and peoples like me.

    I just don't get why the bosmer should receive a lore-breaking and traditionnal-ES-saga-gameplay-breaking PvP only passive ; and a only half (if not quarter) efficient one, as if it wasn't enough...

  • Cundu_Ertur
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    The problem I see with the new skill line approach is that we'd be losing now to get, maybe, later. Legerdemain is not limited to thieves, it's available to everyone from the start [edit to add: it is part of the base game, no DLC required, too]. Thieves and assassins already have their own skill lines that are separate from it. Also, the skill in legerdemain is called 'improved hiding' but it doesn't actually, y'know, improve hiding. It improves moving around in hiding, but not the act of hiding itself.

    Yeah exactly. I want to see the "replacement for stealth" first before I am ok with the "we'll fix it later" approach they are doing now. The only problem I see with putting it in ledgerman is that it is such a pain to level if you are not a thief. I was working on leveling it on an alt and all I am doing is running around looking for open world treasure chests on a loop. Not fun.

    The good thing would be you don't have to max that line to get the full bonus, it's the first passive in the chain, so it's available at 1/6/11/16. But if we want something that is logical and easily implemented, easy enough to include in the current patch cycle, I think this would be the best option. It would be nice to gain exp in it in more ways than just opening locked chests.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • BlueRaven
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    The problem I see with the new skill line approach is that we'd be losing now to get, maybe, later. Legerdemain is not limited to thieves, it's available to everyone from the start [edit to add: it is part of the base game, no DLC required, too]. Thieves and assassins already have their own skill lines that are separate from it. Also, the skill in legerdemain is called 'improved hiding' but it doesn't actually, y'know, improve hiding. It improves moving around in hiding, but not the act of hiding itself.

    Yeah exactly. I want to see the "replacement for stealth" first before I am ok with the "we'll fix it later" approach they are doing now. The only problem I see with putting it in ledgerman is that it is such a pain to level if you are not a thief. I was working on leveling it on an alt and all I am doing is running around looking for open world treasure chests on a loop. Not fun.

    The good thing would be you don't have to max that line to get the full bonus, it's the first passive in the chain, so it's available at 1/6/11/16. But if we want something that is logical and easily implemented, easy enough to include in the current patch cycle, I think this would be the best option. It would be nice to gain exp in it in more ways than just opening locked chests.

    I agree. :)

    Edited by BlueRaven on February 7, 2019 8:33PM
  • Uryel
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    Tasear wrote: »
    What makes you enjoy bosmer stealth? Lets talk about it.

    Ain't much I can say that hasn't been said by @BlueRaven or @Cundu_Ertur . Stealth is simply my favourite gamplay in pretty much every game. All Elder Scrolls since Morrowind, but also Deus Ex and whatnot. If there is Stealth in a game, I use it.

    So, of course I played a Ranger like character that uses stealth and a bow in ESO. And of course I'm pissed by having that forcefully removed for no reason whatsoever, all the while breaking the lore, and having it replaced by a useless PvP only bonus.

    If I wanted to be punched in the bollocks, I'd be paying a dominatrix, not an ESO+ sub.
    Edited by Uryel on February 8, 2019 12:38AM
  • max_only
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    Tasear wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Well well well...
    I live the forum for a week, and when I come back, we are still in the same mess...
    What a surprise.

    Oh no, excuse me, there is a change ; and if you consider that changing something without improving is is great, then, this change is great...

    I really don't get it.
    Diversity for the sake of diversity is meaningless. Diversity for the sake of diversity that break the mean of things, that is even worse...
    Bosmers are stealthy, no matters if the Khajits are too.

    Yeah, tell me about it. I just learned about the race changes just before I left on a cruise. And then I had to use all of my onboard minutes patrolling the forums hoping what I read about the bosmers losing stealth was a mistake.

    What makes you enjoy bosmer stealth? Lets talk about it. Would it resolve things say if you gained penetration with stealth. It would bring the issue of pvp passive thing again... but hey they said someday... oneday they will make stealth meaningful in pve too.

    P.S Yes I think dodge roll penetration doesn't make sense. I would take penetration while moving or staying still as more nimblenesss or focus or even maybe just adding it as a stealth mechanic is right way?

    I made a tiny humanoid character with the express purpose of squeezing between “impossible” situation, keeping out of sight, and frankly, looking good. I’ve tried and I can’t play a Khajiit. I have one, but I can’t “get into it”. Suspension of disbelief is a quality that some movies have yknow, and a video game for me is an interactive movie.

    Furthermore, all previous titles in this franchise have followed a specific model. If I had the energy I’d be battling about the Argonian passives not including any nod to the Shadowscale affinity. I decided to pick this battle though because for years I’ve made a connection to these characters.

    Sci-fi and fantasy as genres have an “internal logic” that must be followed within their universe to continue being plausible. Any aberration to that invites justified critique.
    https://film.avclub.com/why-fiction-s-freest-genres-need-its-most-rigid-rules-1798228448
    Some relevant quotes:
    The problem with pulling this kind of thing the wrong way in a speculative-fiction story is that science fiction, fantasy, and horror don’t necessarily share mainstream fiction’s baseline expectations for how reality works, and it’s far too easy to leave audiences feeling cheated, annoyed, or just plain confused when the rules change abruptly, or were ill-defined in the first place.
    So: Establish rules and then don’t break them. Seems obvious enough, right? Not really, given how few science-fiction/fantasy/horror films manage to do it right. As mentioned earlier, it’s harder for films to establish strange new worlds without a lot of clumsy exposition.
    We have a lot of exposition already, there are 5 other games worth of exposition.
    After a certain point, they become like any other rules for how the world works: They establish a basic framework for understanding and shaping a meaningful story.
    Essentially, in the real world, people have to deal with the basic truths about how the world functions, whether they’re dealing with the law of gravity or common human motivations. The act of contending with limitations and figuring out how to work around and within them is inherently dramatic, and imminently relatable—everyone in the world has at some point been up against some force that prevented them from getting exactly what they wanted at all times. The hard part for storytellers in speculative fiction is figuring out what the rules should be, then getting them across to the audience clearly and convincingly. And then not breaking those rules for the sake of a moment, even if it would really, really startle people if they did. Speculative fiction makes up its own rules, and relies on its audience’s goodwill and suspension of disbelief to make an inherently unreal world feel real enough to be convincing. Breaking internal rules—or worse, lazily never bothering to set them up in the first place—is the easiest possible way to cut the cords and send that disbelief crashing to the ground.

    @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler and even though he’s leaving one last @ZOS_Lawrence_Schick


    On a more personal note:
    I don’t know about anyone else, but before I buy a game I look into wether they have the archetypal character I like. I like to heal, I like to hunt (combat pets) and I like to sneak. Healers and hunters are another sour topic.
    Just yesterday I was in the Jerall Mountains during a Dark Brotherhood quest and I spent HOURS in that instance even after the quest was done. How can I explain the feeling... in Skyrim (sigh here we go) I made a whole bunch of characters but my absolute favorite was a Bosmer, who I started in the middle of the woods, who hunted and lived off the land, selling meat and furs. Yesterday was a revelation. Sneaking up on my prey, waiting for the right moment to plant an arrow in their heart, sprinting to chase them down. Also sneaking past all the dangers in the woods. Come upon a cultist doing a ritual? Sneak past. Come upon a brigand ambush? Sneak past. Come upon a mighty beast? Sneak past. They feeling of “yesssss” when you can squeeze by in tight spaces unnoticed. Sometimes I’m able to take what I need from right under their noses.
    Edited by max_only on February 8, 2019 1:08AM
    #FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
    #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
    || CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
    ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
  • BlueRaven
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    @max_only

    Now you got me wanting to play skyrim again!

    You reminded me on what I think Skyrim (and Fallout 4) does to really rewarded stealth game play. In those games we (the player) can overhear conversations done by enemy npcs. Dungeons felt alive as the npc discussed things. Remember the two bandits at the beginning of the Drauger ruin over looking riverwood? Or the necromancers who took over that bandit camp, in that other ruin where the horn of jurgen windcaller is kept?

    I miss those touches in ESO. The Npc's move around in believable ways, (stealth has made me appreciate those environmental touches the developers added :smile: ) but rarely (if ever) do they make that environmental gameplay connection of just talking.
  • BlueRaven
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  • russelmmendoza
    russelmmendoza
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    Just one of the reason why the eso lore guy left.

    In the name of balance?
    In the name of nerfs?
    In the name of no fun?

    Oh whelp.
  • Uryel
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    max_only wrote: »
    sneaking past all the dangers in the woods. Come upon a cultist doing a ritual? Sneak past. Come upon a brigand ambush? Sneak past. Come upon a mighty beast? Sneak past. They feeling of “yesssss” when you can squeeze by in tight spaces unnoticed. Sometimes I’m able to take what I need from right under their noses.

    Same boat, bro, same boat :)

    Would you mind if I used that quote as my signature ?
  • max_only
    max_only
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    Uryel wrote: »
    max_only wrote: »
    sneaking past all the dangers in the woods. Come upon a cultist doing a ritual? Sneak past. Come upon a brigand ambush? Sneak past. Come upon a mighty beast? Sneak past. They feeling of “yesssss” when you can squeeze by in tight spaces unnoticed. Sometimes I’m able to take what I need from right under their noses.

    Same boat, bro, same boat :)

    Would you mind if I used that quote as my signature ?

    Go right ahead!
    #FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
    #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
    || CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
    ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
  • ProbablePaul
    ProbablePaul
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    max_only wrote: »
    ...
    Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.

    A quick note on why we changed the Stealthy passive: Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other. Additionally, since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!), we wanted to take away some of the focus from the passive and build that into their other passives instead. We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives.

    Developer Comment:
    The thick forests of Valenwood have imprinted the importance of the ability to hunt in the Wood Elf race, and as such they have a natural adeptness for detecting potential threats. Quick to react and well versed in the poisons of nature, they can outlast and outwit their opponents. These traits are demonstrated with their natural speed boost when tactfully engaging combat, and their unparalleled Stamina Recovery.

    Look at your logic that I bolded. Enemies can’t be bothered to sneak about.
    Then look at the change you made. Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m

    So enemies can’t be bothered to sneak yet Bosmer can detect sneaking better. Your own explanation invalidates your own logic.
    ...
    Also, they're reasoning seems pretty spot on, as both races have their own distinct version of a stealth detection passive.
    No, they do not. The Khajiit increase their ability to go into and remain in stealth. The Bosmer completely lose any and all bonus to this. Instead, the Bosmer get an improvement to their ability to see through stealth, which is completely different and not stealth at all by any definition, and which did not belong in any way to the previous iteration of the passive which was shared by the two races. Let's review the old passive: Bosmer and Khajiit both had a 3m reduction to the distance at which they would be detected in hiding, and both had a 10% bonus to damage done from stealth. The Khajiit keep part of that previous passive (and even improve with regard to that part) in that their new reduction is 5m instead of 3m but they lose the additional damage; the Bosmer keep exactly NONE of it, losing both the bonus to damage and in being able to hide. Note: detecting hidden things was not any part of the previous, shared passive.
    Your comment about enemies sneaking about is missing the point, as they were elaborating on the sneaking mechanic being a non-universal one.
    You're missing the point. The devs explicitly acknowledge that being able to see hidden things is completely unimportant in PVE, and then go right on ahead and give Bosmer this useless ability.

    If you're going to make an argument against what someone said, you shouldn't remove the parts of their argument, especially if the parts you're removing agree with the points you're making.
    Also, they're reasoning seems pretty spot on, as both races have their own distinct version of a stealth detection passive. Your comment about enemies sneaking about is missing the point, as they were elaborating on the sneaking mechanic being a non-universal one. Maybe you mean for them to clarify what they meant by, "We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives."? Because the current, truest version of the wood elf passive is reduced detection, not increased detection. Although, their proposed passive is still a version of the passive, none-the-less; they never said they'd be identical.

    Aaaaand, no, you're missing the point of my entire post, and the same point OP missed as well - what you interpret and what was said are two different things.

    Regarding what the devs said, "We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives." They are actually keeping a part of the game mechanic; a game mechanic is more general than a passive alone, meaning that anything pertaining to stealth would fall under that umbrella, whether that be decreased or increased detection radius. There are no errors in logic here, just your interpretation of it.

    Though, (and again) I did admit that the dev's confusingly said they would be 'keeping parts of each racial passive' implying that those parts that would be kept would be the ones we've seen before. But once they mentioned 'supporting that game mechanic' they could potentially do anything with stealth, and still technically be correct by calling it a version. Where in this case, instead of keeping the passives as we knew them, for bosmer they kept the three meter radius, except gave them increased instead of decreased radius; for khajiit, the khajiit kept the decreased radius, but they changed the size of the radius.

    As for my post, the point was to encourage the OP to, rather than call the devs out on their logic, simply ask for the passive to return to the bosmer, instead. Why? OP didn't know what he was talking about, and I was trying to substantiate that.
    Bosmer Melee Magicka Nightblade
  • Uryel
    Uryel
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    They are actually keeping a part of the game mechanic; a game mechanic is more general than a passive alone, meaning that anything pertaining to stealth would fall under that umbrella, whether that be decreased or increased detection radius. There are no errors in logic here, just your interpretation of it.

    Err... Explain again how removing something entirely and replacing it by something else entirely is "keeping" it ?

    You're going to a restaurant and order a meal. The waiter brings you an entirely different meal. You complain. The waiter says "Ah, come on, you're getting a meal anyway, and this one is actually even tastier than what you ordered". According to your own logic, you have no reason to complain, it is a meal, after all.
  • max_only
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    max_only wrote: »
    ...
    Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.

    A quick note on why we changed the Stealthy passive: Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other. Additionally, since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!), we wanted to take away some of the focus from the passive and build that into their other passives instead. We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives.

    Developer Comment:
    The thick forests of Valenwood have imprinted the importance of the ability to hunt in the Wood Elf race, and as such they have a natural adeptness for detecting potential threats. Quick to react and well versed in the poisons of nature, they can outlast and outwit their opponents. These traits are demonstrated with their natural speed boost when tactfully engaging combat, and their unparalleled Stamina Recovery.

    Look at your logic that I bolded. Enemies can’t be bothered to sneak about.
    Then look at the change you made. Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m

    So enemies can’t be bothered to sneak yet Bosmer can detect sneaking better. Your own explanation invalidates your own logic.
    ...
    Also, they're reasoning seems pretty spot on, as both races have their own distinct version of a stealth detection passive.
    No, they do not. The Khajiit increase their ability to go into and remain in stealth. The Bosmer completely lose any and all bonus to this. Instead, the Bosmer get an improvement to their ability to see through stealth, which is completely different and not stealth at all by any definition, and which did not belong in any way to the previous iteration of the passive which was shared by the two races. Let's review the old passive: Bosmer and Khajiit both had a 3m reduction to the distance at which they would be detected in hiding, and both had a 10% bonus to damage done from stealth. The Khajiit keep part of that previous passive (and even improve with regard to that part) in that their new reduction is 5m instead of 3m but they lose the additional damage; the Bosmer keep exactly NONE of it, losing both the bonus to damage and in being able to hide. Note: detecting hidden things was not any part of the previous, shared passive.
    Your comment about enemies sneaking about is missing the point, as they were elaborating on the sneaking mechanic being a non-universal one.
    You're missing the point. The devs explicitly acknowledge that being able to see hidden things is completely unimportant in PVE, and then go right on ahead and give Bosmer this useless ability.

    If you're going to make an argument against what someone said, you shouldn't remove the parts of their argument, especially if the parts you're removing agree with the points you're making.
    Also, they're reasoning seems pretty spot on, as both races have their own distinct version of a stealth detection passive. Your comment about enemies sneaking about is missing the point, as they were elaborating on the sneaking mechanic being a non-universal one. Maybe you mean for them to clarify what they meant by, "We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives."? Because the current, truest version of the wood elf passive is reduced detection, not increased detection. Although, their proposed passive is still a version of the passive, none-the-less; they never said they'd be identical.

    Aaaaand, no, you're missing the point of my entire post, and the same point OP missed as well - what you interpret and what was said are two different things.

    Regarding what the devs said, "We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives." They are actually keeping a part of the game mechanic; a game mechanic is more general than a passive alone, meaning that anything pertaining to stealth would fall under that umbrella, whether that be decreased or increased detection radius. There are no errors in logic here, just your interpretation of it.

    Though, (and again) I did admit that the dev's confusingly said they would be 'keeping parts of each racial passive' implying that those parts that would be kept would be the ones we've seen before. But once they mentioned 'supporting that game mechanic' they could potentially do anything with stealth, and still technically be correct by calling it a version. Where in this case, instead of keeping the passives as we knew them, for bosmer they kept the three meter radius, except gave them increased instead of decreased radius; for khajiit, the khajiit kept the decreased radius, but they changed the size of the radius.

    As for my post, the point was to encourage the OP to, rather than call the devs out on their logic, simply ask for the passive to return to the bosmer, instead. Why? OP didn't know what he was talking about, and I was trying to substantiate that.

    You are the one missing the error. The part I’m discussing is not:

    “We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives”

    I’m discussing this quote:

    “(many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!)”

    Which concludes with them coming up with

    “Increases your Stealth detection”.

    You are the one interpreting what they said. They made a hypothesis, and a claim, and then came up with the wrong conclusion. Enemies don’t stealth -> now you can detect stealth enemies. Illogical.

    “But once they mentioned 'supporting that game mechanic' they could potentially do anything with stealth, and still technically be correct by calling it a version.“

    PpV0evc.png

    What is this clown court? Is this Bird Law? You are making it too complex for a very simple formula. You are technically correct. They kept the word “stealth”. They could have changed the stealth color and you’d be technically correct. I guess.

    Enemies do not stealth, their words, not mine. Therefore you can detect stealthed enemies. ???
    Enemies do not eat, therefore you can starve out enemies.
    Enemies do not laugh therefore you can make them laugh to death.
    #FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
    #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
    || CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
    ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
  • Kelces
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    I agree, what a waste of time. Seems to me like a lot of different apartments, who don't talk to each other. The only explanation for the currently planned changes. Amazing, do they even think? :lol:

    They could focus efforts on something much more important instead (I guess many people here can think of something :wink:) and just keep it as it is now.
    You reveal yourself best in how you play.

    Kelces - Argonian Templar
    Farel Donvu - Dark Elf Sorcerer
    Navam Llervu - Dark Elf Dragonknight
    Aniseth - Wood Elf Warden
    Therediel - Wood Elf Templar
    Nilonwy - Wood Elf Nightblade
    Jurupari - Argonian Warden
    Kú-Chulainn - Argonian Sorcerer
    PC - EU
    For the Pact!
  • BlueRaven
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    max_only wrote: »
    ...
    Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.

    A quick note on why we changed the Stealthy passive: Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other. Additionally, since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!), we wanted to take away some of the focus from the passive and build that into their other passives instead. We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives.

    Developer Comment:
    The thick forests of Valenwood have imprinted the importance of the ability to hunt in the Wood Elf race, and as such they have a natural adeptness for detecting potential threats. Quick to react and well versed in the poisons of nature, they can outlast and outwit their opponents. These traits are demonstrated with their natural speed boost when tactfully engaging combat, and their unparalleled Stamina Recovery.

    Look at your logic that I bolded. Enemies can’t be bothered to sneak about.
    Then look at the change you made. Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m

    So enemies can’t be bothered to sneak yet Bosmer can detect sneaking better. Your own explanation invalidates your own logic.
    ...
    Also, they're reasoning seems pretty spot on, as both races have their own distinct version of a stealth detection passive.
    No, they do not. The Khajiit increase their ability to go into and remain in stealth. The Bosmer completely lose any and all bonus to this. Instead, the Bosmer get an improvement to their ability to see through stealth, which is completely different and not stealth at all by any definition, and which did not belong in any way to the previous iteration of the passive which was shared by the two races. Let's review the old passive: Bosmer and Khajiit both had a 3m reduction to the distance at which they would be detected in hiding, and both had a 10% bonus to damage done from stealth. The Khajiit keep part of that previous passive (and even improve with regard to that part) in that their new reduction is 5m instead of 3m but they lose the additional damage; the Bosmer keep exactly NONE of it, losing both the bonus to damage and in being able to hide. Note: detecting hidden things was not any part of the previous, shared passive.
    Your comment about enemies sneaking about is missing the point, as they were elaborating on the sneaking mechanic being a non-universal one.
    You're missing the point. The devs explicitly acknowledge that being able to see hidden things is completely unimportant in PVE, and then go right on ahead and give Bosmer this useless ability.

    If you're going to make an argument against what someone said, you shouldn't remove the parts of their argument, especially if the parts you're removing agree with the points you're making.
    Also, they're reasoning seems pretty spot on, as both races have their own distinct version of a stealth detection passive. Your comment about enemies sneaking about is missing the point, as they were elaborating on the sneaking mechanic being a non-universal one. Maybe you mean for them to clarify what they meant by, "We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives."? Because the current, truest version of the wood elf passive is reduced detection, not increased detection. Although, their proposed passive is still a version of the passive, none-the-less; they never said they'd be identical.

    Aaaaand, no, you're missing the point of my entire post, and the same point OP missed as well - what you interpret and what was said are two different things.

    Regarding what the devs said, "We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives." They are actually keeping a part of the game mechanic; a game mechanic is more general than a passive alone, meaning that anything pertaining to stealth would fall under that umbrella, whether that be decreased or increased detection radius. There are no errors in logic here, just your interpretation of it.

    Though, (and again) I did admit that the dev's confusingly said they would be 'keeping parts of each racial passive' implying that those parts that would be kept would be the ones we've seen before. But once they mentioned 'supporting that game mechanic' they could potentially do anything with stealth, and still technically be correct by calling it a version. Where in this case, instead of keeping the passives as we knew them, for bosmer they kept the three meter radius, except gave them increased instead of decreased radius; for khajiit, the khajiit kept the decreased radius, but they changed the size of the radius.

    As for my post, the point was to encourage the OP to, rather than call the devs out on their logic, simply ask for the passive to return to the bosmer, instead. Why? OP didn't know what he was talking about, and I was trying to substantiate that.

    "Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds."

    "A quick note on why we changed the Stealthy passive: Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other. Additionally, since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!), we wanted to take away some of the focus from the passive and build that into their other passives instead. We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives."

    Reduces detection Radius by 3m - Gone.

    Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% - Gone

    So NO part of the former ability remains for Bosmer's.

    What is your argument? That "Stealthy" and "Hunter's Eye" passive descriptions both contain the words "stealth", "3m", "by", and "radius"? And because of that they kept "parts" of the passive?

    There is not part of "Stealthy" passive that is remaining for Bosmer's. None. And just because they have not disabled the "stealth" key does that mean nothing is changing either.
  • Uryel
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    What is your argument? That "Stealthy" and "Hunter's Eye" passive descriptions both contain the words "stealth", "3m", "by", and "radius"? And because of that they kept "parts" of the passive?

    Oh, can I play that game too ?

    Unforeseen Bulk : Your stealth bonus is removed. You will be detected from further away by a 3m radius compared to your previous experience. Congo rats, you're now as bulky as a much larger Nord or Orc.
    Edited by Uryel on February 8, 2019 8:54PM
  • BlueRaven
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    Uryel wrote: »
    Uryel wrote: »
    What is your argument? That "Stealthy" and "Hunter's Eye" passive descriptions both contain the words "stealth", "3m", "by", and "radius"? And because of that they kept "parts" of the passive?

    Oh, can I play that game too ?

    Unforeseen Bulk : Your stealth bonus is removed. You will be detected from further away by a 3m radius compared to your previous experience. Congo rats, you're now as bulky as a much larger Nord or Orc.

    Yeah, but they are still supporting the "game mechanic" so what's the problem?! :D
  • Eiron77
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    I rather enjoyed that logic discussion in a thread about illogical reasoning! Way to stay on topic.

    But yeah. Just wanted to add that I am one more player who enjoys the stealth mechanic. I created my Bosmer because of the Stealthy passive. I have had a Bosmer in every TES game since Morrowind. I prefer to scout, infiltrate, and attack when optimal. I do not play PvP.

    I am bitter about losing the 10% extra damage from stealth for my race. It's not that I enjoyed the extra damage, I enjoyed the idea of my character being more effective in stealth and as I exit stealth. But that one, I can understand losing it, even if I don't agree with it. That's my opinion.

    What I hate is this entire replacement of my stealth racial. I never thought my Bosmer would lose its reduced detection radius passive. And the reasoning behind it is baffling, shows no depth of thought, and is illogical.

    There has been very definitive feedback about Bosmer's losing their stealth bonus. ZOS has their vision and are sticking to it, no matter what the players want. But, if this change makes it to live, they will have destroyed the entire concept of my main character. Playing that character is 90% of my enjoyment with this game. My alts only support my main.

    This change feels like they handed a Khajit a knife to stab me in the back. Like Blizzard recently did with Battle for Azeroth.
    Et tu, Zenimax?
    Edited by Eiron77 on February 9, 2019 12:57AM
  • BlueRaven
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    Eiron77 wrote: »
    I rather enjoyed that logic discussion in a thread about illogical reasoning! Way to stay on topic.

    But yeah. Just wanted to add that I am one more player who enjoys the stealth mechanic. I created my Bosmer because of the Stealthy passive. I have had a Bosmer in every TES game since Morrowind. I prefer to scout, infiltrate, and attack when optimal. I do not play PvP.

    I am bitter about losing the 10% extra damage from stealth for my race. It's not that I enjoyed the extra damage, I enjoyed the idea of my character being more effective in stealth and as I exit stealth. But that one, I can understand losing it, even if I don't agree with it. That's my opinion.

    What I hate is this entire replacement of my stealth racial. I never thought my Bosmer would lose its reduced detection radius passive. And the reasoning behind it is baffling, shows no depth of thought, and is illogical.

    There has been very definitive feedback about Bosmer's losing their stealth bonus. ZOS has their vision and are sticking to it, no matter what the players want. But, if this change makes it to live, they will have destroyed the entire concept of my main character. Playing that character is 90% of my enjoyment with this game. My alts only support my main.

    This change feels like they handed a Khajit a knife to stab me in the back. Like Blizzard recently did with Battle for Azeroth.
    Et tu, Zenimax?

    Oh! Don't bring up WoW I spent so many years in that game. My Bosmers deep origins started with my Blood Elf rouge, (who morphed into a bosmer in Skyrim and continued here). I used to belong to a semi-casual raiding guild. I left because I wanted less grind and more rp in what I did. I still do trials in ESO, last night I did CR+1 normal, CR+2 Vet, CR +3 normal. But I don't do it as much as I used to.

    I moved on in 2104 to this game. :)

    •••

    Yeah. The way they are handling it really is awful. The loss of the 10% damage is a direct nerf because of pvp (gank builds) and (I think) with that mindset they added the detect, again from pvp. Everything about the passive now reeks of PvP actually.

    The only comfort I have is that this is still beta, and if we all keep complaining about it it might be reversed.
  • Eiron77
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    Oh! Don't bring up WoW I spent so many years in that game. My Bosmers deep origins started with my Blood Elf rouge, (who morphed into a bosmer in Skyrim and continued here). I used to belong to a semi-casual raiding guild. I left because I wanted less grind and more rp in what I did. I still do trials in ESO, last night I did CR+1 normal, CR+2 Vet, CR +3 normal. But I don't do it as much as I used to.

    I moved on in 2104 to this game. :)

    My ESO Bosmer is as identical as possible to my first TES Morrowind character. It was my first character made in ESO (I even stayed up late on the night of ESO's launch to ensure I secured the name--I had to work the next day, lol). There was a semblance of it in WoW with a dark-haired blood elf rogue that was highly enjoyable to play in BC and Wrath. I then created it in Skyrim after I tried a Breton for a change of pace, but still went back to my origins eventually. Edit: And in Oblivion as well.

    I used to raid a lot in WoW. I wish I could get more involved in end-game content for ESO, but due to new life responsibilities, I can only do solo play (I have to frequently afk these days...). ESO's Justice system with thieving and assassinating has been perfect to allow me to enjoy an MMO and be a casual. I find mats, make money, craft/find my own gear, so that when I do play with friends my character is not behind. It's given me so much enjoyment in my free time.

    •••

    Yeah. The way they are handling it really is awful. The loss of the 10% damage is a direct nerf because of pvp (gank builds) and (I think) with that mindset they added the detect, again from pvp. Everything about the passive now reeks of PvP actually.

    Oh I know... PvP once again takes precedence in disrupting PvE balance. Such is the way of MMO's it seems...
    The only comfort I have is that this is still beta, and if we all keep complaining about it it might be reversed.

    There's nothing I like about the passive, but all they have to do for me to tolerate it would be to drop the detection of stealth for detectable radius reduced while in stealth. If they just do that, I'm pretty sure I can still enjoy my Bosmer--and therefore this game.
    Edited by Eiron77 on February 9, 2019 1:44AM
  • BlueRaven
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    Eiron77 wrote: »

    My ESO Bosmer is as identical as possible to my first TES Morrowind character. It was my first character made in ESO (I even stayed up late on the night of ESO's launch to ensure I secured the name--I had to work the next day, lol). There was a semblance of it in WoW with a dark-haired blood elf rogue that was highly enjoyable to play in BC and Wrath. I then created it in Skyrim after I tried a Breton for a change of pace, but still went back to my origins eventually.

    I did the same thing! I secured the names of my three "mains" from WoW. Although here in ESO my "Rouge" took over as my true main. What I did in the ESO beta was that I got my character creation sliders in place, took screenshots, and then when the game went live it was easy to secure them.

    (A quick aside.)
    I recommend if you are going to do a necromancer, to make the character now, get your sliders in place and secure a name. Then when it goes live, you can delete the place holder, you have the name saved and you can quickly make your toon.

    I don't really do trials much myself, I am in a really good auction guild that does a lot of social stuff as well. In trials I am more of an alternate, but they like taking me along because WoW's raids have trained me well not to stand in fire. :D

    •••

    Yeah the loss of stealth is going to impact my play a lot (if it goes through). It's just all super depressing. I hope the class (race?) devs have brought it up again, and there is a new pass this monday.
    Edited by BlueRaven on February 9, 2019 2:02AM
  • Eiron77
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    I did the same thing! I secured the names of my three "mains" from WoW.

    Haha! Nice! Yup, I did the same thing with the sliders. And yeah, I quickly figured out I wasn't the only one when the name of my DK (Death Knight) was taken even though I'd wasted no time after making the Bosmer first.
    Yeah the loss of stealth is going to impact my play a lot (if it goes through). It's just all super depressing. I hope the class (race?) devs have brought it up again, and there is a new pass this monday.

    This. Here's to hoping man.
  • BlueRaven
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  • anadandy
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    *sigh*

    Why do people not understand "Less useful in PVE is not the same as zero use in PVE"

    I officially give up.

  • Cundu_Ertur
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    There's one guy there who just pulls up things at random "oh, health regen is useless in PVE, it's a PVP only skill, but no-one is complaining about that, so shut up Bosmer." WT actual HHF.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • anadandy
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    Yup and then there's the "Lots of passives are useless in PVE so its fine!" - ooookay.
  • BlueRaven
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    There's one guy there who just pulls up things at random "oh, health regen is useless in PVE, it's a PVP only skill, but no-one is complaining about that, so shut up Bosmer." WT actual HHF.

    Those two posters in that thread are just baffling me.

    I think one of them is saying something along the lines of, “all anyone cares about is dps, all this other stuff is unimportant, and since they are unimportant then it’s equally unimportant for PvE and PvP” or something.

    And the other is like “I have tons of gear and my enchants are all all in place, so sprinting and extra healing means nothing to me in trials. So to me they are pvp only passives” if I am understanding them correctly.

    I might be wrong in my interpretations but yeah, wtf?
  • MagicalLija
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    Im still back here praying for Viable Woodelf bow/bow pve builds ;---;
  • Uryel
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    anadandy wrote: »
    I officially give up.

    Don't. We can't afford it, mate :)
  • BlueRaven
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    So the notes for update 4.3.3 are up and the Bosmer roll got a buff... And we still have stealth detection... /sigh

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458556/pts-patch-notes-v4-3-3#latest
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