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Bosmer Racial change that is illogical and unnecessary

  • Cundu_Ertur
    Cundu_Ertur
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    The problem I see with the new skill line approach is that we'd be losing now to get, maybe, later. Legerdemain is not limited to thieves, it's available to everyone from the start [edit to add: it is part of the base game, no DLC required, too]. Thieves and assassins already have their own skill lines that are separate from it. Also, the skill in legerdemain is called 'improved hiding' but it doesn't actually, y'know, improve hiding. It improves moving around in hiding, but not the act of hiding itself.

    Yeah exactly. I want to see the "replacement for stealth" first before I am ok with the "we'll fix it later" approach they are doing now. The only problem I see with putting it in ledgerman is that it is such a pain to level if you are not a thief. I was working on leveling it on an alt and all I am doing is running around looking for open world treasure chests on a loop. Not fun.

    The good thing would be you don't have to max that line to get the full bonus, it's the first passive in the chain, so it's available at 1/6/11/16. But if we want something that is logical and easily implemented, easy enough to include in the current patch cycle, I think this would be the best option. It would be nice to gain exp in it in more ways than just opening locked chests.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • BlueRaven
    BlueRaven
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    The problem I see with the new skill line approach is that we'd be losing now to get, maybe, later. Legerdemain is not limited to thieves, it's available to everyone from the start [edit to add: it is part of the base game, no DLC required, too]. Thieves and assassins already have their own skill lines that are separate from it. Also, the skill in legerdemain is called 'improved hiding' but it doesn't actually, y'know, improve hiding. It improves moving around in hiding, but not the act of hiding itself.

    Yeah exactly. I want to see the "replacement for stealth" first before I am ok with the "we'll fix it later" approach they are doing now. The only problem I see with putting it in ledgerman is that it is such a pain to level if you are not a thief. I was working on leveling it on an alt and all I am doing is running around looking for open world treasure chests on a loop. Not fun.

    The good thing would be you don't have to max that line to get the full bonus, it's the first passive in the chain, so it's available at 1/6/11/16. But if we want something that is logical and easily implemented, easy enough to include in the current patch cycle, I think this would be the best option. It would be nice to gain exp in it in more ways than just opening locked chests.

    I agree. :)

    Edited by BlueRaven on February 7, 2019 8:33PM
  • BlueRaven
    BlueRaven
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    @max_only

    Now you got me wanting to play skyrim again!

    You reminded me on what I think Skyrim (and Fallout 4) does to really rewarded stealth game play. In those games we (the player) can overhear conversations done by enemy npcs. Dungeons felt alive as the npc discussed things. Remember the two bandits at the beginning of the Drauger ruin over looking riverwood? Or the necromancers who took over that bandit camp, in that other ruin where the horn of jurgen windcaller is kept?

    I miss those touches in ESO. The Npc's move around in believable ways, (stealth has made me appreciate those environmental touches the developers added :smile: ) but rarely (if ever) do they make that environmental gameplay connection of just talking.
  • russelmmendoza
    russelmmendoza
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    Just one of the reason why the eso lore guy left.

    In the name of balance?
    In the name of nerfs?
    In the name of no fun?

    Oh whelp.
  • Uryel
    Uryel
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    max_only wrote: »
    sneaking past all the dangers in the woods. Come upon a cultist doing a ritual? Sneak past. Come upon a brigand ambush? Sneak past. Come upon a mighty beast? Sneak past. They feeling of “yesssss” when you can squeeze by in tight spaces unnoticed. Sometimes I’m able to take what I need from right under their noses.

    Same boat, bro, same boat :)

    Would you mind if I used that quote as my signature ?
    max_only wrote: »
    Bosmers sneaking past all the dangers in the woods. Come upon a cultist doing a ritual? Sneak past. Come upon a brigand ambush? Sneak past. Come upon a mighty beast? Sneak past. The feeling of “yesssss” when you can squeeze by in tight spaces unnoticed. Sometimes I’m able to take what I need from right under their noses.
  • max_only
    max_only
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    Uryel wrote: »
    max_only wrote: »
    sneaking past all the dangers in the woods. Come upon a cultist doing a ritual? Sneak past. Come upon a brigand ambush? Sneak past. Come upon a mighty beast? Sneak past. They feeling of “yesssss” when you can squeeze by in tight spaces unnoticed. Sometimes I’m able to take what I need from right under their noses.

    Same boat, bro, same boat :)

    Would you mind if I used that quote as my signature ?

    Go right ahead!
    #FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
    #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks

    CP 866 || PC/NA ||
    “Do we have a tank? Because I’m not the tank,” says Max as he tanks, tankingly.
    ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
  • ProbablePaul
    ProbablePaul
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    max_only wrote: »
    ...
    Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.

    A quick note on why we changed the Stealthy passive: Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other. Additionally, since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!), we wanted to take away some of the focus from the passive and build that into their other passives instead. We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives.

    Developer Comment:
    The thick forests of Valenwood have imprinted the importance of the ability to hunt in the Wood Elf race, and as such they have a natural adeptness for detecting potential threats. Quick to react and well versed in the poisons of nature, they can outlast and outwit their opponents. These traits are demonstrated with their natural speed boost when tactfully engaging combat, and their unparalleled Stamina Recovery.

    Look at your logic that I bolded. Enemies can’t be bothered to sneak about.
    Then look at the change you made. Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m

    So enemies can’t be bothered to sneak yet Bosmer can detect sneaking better. Your own explanation invalidates your own logic.
    ...
    Also, they're reasoning seems pretty spot on, as both races have their own distinct version of a stealth detection passive.
    No, they do not. The Khajiit increase their ability to go into and remain in stealth. The Bosmer completely lose any and all bonus to this. Instead, the Bosmer get an improvement to their ability to see through stealth, which is completely different and not stealth at all by any definition, and which did not belong in any way to the previous iteration of the passive which was shared by the two races. Let's review the old passive: Bosmer and Khajiit both had a 3m reduction to the distance at which they would be detected in hiding, and both had a 10% bonus to damage done from stealth. The Khajiit keep part of that previous passive (and even improve with regard to that part) in that their new reduction is 5m instead of 3m but they lose the additional damage; the Bosmer keep exactly NONE of it, losing both the bonus to damage and in being able to hide. Note: detecting hidden things was not any part of the previous, shared passive.
    Your comment about enemies sneaking about is missing the point, as they were elaborating on the sneaking mechanic being a non-universal one.
    You're missing the point. The devs explicitly acknowledge that being able to see hidden things is completely unimportant in PVE, and then go right on ahead and give Bosmer this useless ability.

    If you're going to make an argument against what someone said, you shouldn't remove the parts of their argument, especially if the parts you're removing agree with the points you're making.
    Also, they're reasoning seems pretty spot on, as both races have their own distinct version of a stealth detection passive. Your comment about enemies sneaking about is missing the point, as they were elaborating on the sneaking mechanic being a non-universal one. Maybe you mean for them to clarify what they meant by, "We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives."? Because the current, truest version of the wood elf passive is reduced detection, not increased detection. Although, their proposed passive is still a version of the passive, none-the-less; they never said they'd be identical.

    Aaaaand, no, you're missing the point of my entire post, and the same point OP missed as well - what you interpret and what was said are two different things.

    Regarding what the devs said, "We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives." They are actually keeping a part of the game mechanic; a game mechanic is more general than a passive alone, meaning that anything pertaining to stealth would fall under that umbrella, whether that be decreased or increased detection radius. There are no errors in logic here, just your interpretation of it.

    Though, (and again) I did admit that the dev's confusingly said they would be 'keeping parts of each racial passive' implying that those parts that would be kept would be the ones we've seen before. But once they mentioned 'supporting that game mechanic' they could potentially do anything with stealth, and still technically be correct by calling it a version. Where in this case, instead of keeping the passives as we knew them, for bosmer they kept the three meter radius, except gave them increased instead of decreased radius; for khajiit, the khajiit kept the decreased radius, but they changed the size of the radius.

    As for my post, the point was to encourage the OP to, rather than call the devs out on their logic, simply ask for the passive to return to the bosmer, instead. Why? OP didn't know what he was talking about, and I was trying to substantiate that.
    "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself." - George Bernard Shaw
  • max_only
    max_only
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    max_only wrote: »
    ...
    Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.

    A quick note on why we changed the Stealthy passive: Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other. Additionally, since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!), we wanted to take away some of the focus from the passive and build that into their other passives instead. We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives.

    Developer Comment:
    The thick forests of Valenwood have imprinted the importance of the ability to hunt in the Wood Elf race, and as such they have a natural adeptness for detecting potential threats. Quick to react and well versed in the poisons of nature, they can outlast and outwit their opponents. These traits are demonstrated with their natural speed boost when tactfully engaging combat, and their unparalleled Stamina Recovery.

    Look at your logic that I bolded. Enemies can’t be bothered to sneak about.
    Then look at the change you made. Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m

    So enemies can’t be bothered to sneak yet Bosmer can detect sneaking better. Your own explanation invalidates your own logic.
    ...
    Also, they're reasoning seems pretty spot on, as both races have their own distinct version of a stealth detection passive.
    No, they do not. The Khajiit increase their ability to go into and remain in stealth. The Bosmer completely lose any and all bonus to this. Instead, the Bosmer get an improvement to their ability to see through stealth, which is completely different and not stealth at all by any definition, and which did not belong in any way to the previous iteration of the passive which was shared by the two races. Let's review the old passive: Bosmer and Khajiit both had a 3m reduction to the distance at which they would be detected in hiding, and both had a 10% bonus to damage done from stealth. The Khajiit keep part of that previous passive (and even improve with regard to that part) in that their new reduction is 5m instead of 3m but they lose the additional damage; the Bosmer keep exactly NONE of it, losing both the bonus to damage and in being able to hide. Note: detecting hidden things was not any part of the previous, shared passive.
    Your comment about enemies sneaking about is missing the point, as they were elaborating on the sneaking mechanic being a non-universal one.
    You're missing the point. The devs explicitly acknowledge that being able to see hidden things is completely unimportant in PVE, and then go right on ahead and give Bosmer this useless ability.

    If you're going to make an argument against what someone said, you shouldn't remove the parts of their argument, especially if the parts you're removing agree with the points you're making.
    Also, they're reasoning seems pretty spot on, as both races have their own distinct version of a stealth detection passive. Your comment about enemies sneaking about is missing the point, as they were elaborating on the sneaking mechanic being a non-universal one. Maybe you mean for them to clarify what they meant by, "We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives."? Because the current, truest version of the wood elf passive is reduced detection, not increased detection. Although, their proposed passive is still a version of the passive, none-the-less; they never said they'd be identical.

    Aaaaand, no, you're missing the point of my entire post, and the same point OP missed as well - what you interpret and what was said are two different things.

    Regarding what the devs said, "We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives." They are actually keeping a part of the game mechanic; a game mechanic is more general than a passive alone, meaning that anything pertaining to stealth would fall under that umbrella, whether that be decreased or increased detection radius. There are no errors in logic here, just your interpretation of it.

    Though, (and again) I did admit that the dev's confusingly said they would be 'keeping parts of each racial passive' implying that those parts that would be kept would be the ones we've seen before. But once they mentioned 'supporting that game mechanic' they could potentially do anything with stealth, and still technically be correct by calling it a version. Where in this case, instead of keeping the passives as we knew them, for bosmer they kept the three meter radius, except gave them increased instead of decreased radius; for khajiit, the khajiit kept the decreased radius, but they changed the size of the radius.

    As for my post, the point was to encourage the OP to, rather than call the devs out on their logic, simply ask for the passive to return to the bosmer, instead. Why? OP didn't know what he was talking about, and I was trying to substantiate that.

    You are the one missing the error. The part I’m discussing is not:

    “We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives”

    I’m discussing this quote:

    “(many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!)”

    Which concludes with them coming up with

    “Increases your Stealth detection”.

    You are the one interpreting what they said. They made a hypothesis, and a claim, and then came up with the wrong conclusion. Enemies don’t stealth -> now you can detect stealth enemies. Illogical.

    “But once they mentioned 'supporting that game mechanic' they could potentially do anything with stealth, and still technically be correct by calling it a version.“

    PpV0evc.png

    What is this clown court? Is this Bird Law? You are making it too complex for a very simple formula. You are technically correct. They kept the word “stealth”. They could have changed the stealth color and you’d be technically correct. I guess.

    Enemies do not stealth, their words, not mine. Therefore you can detect stealthed enemies. ???
    Enemies do not eat, therefore you can starve out enemies.
    Enemies do not laugh therefore you can make them laugh to death.
    #FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
    #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks

    CP 866 || PC/NA ||
    “Do we have a tank? Because I’m not the tank,” says Max as he tanks, tankingly.
    ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
  • Kelces
    Kelces
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    I agree, what a waste of time. Seems to me like a lot of different apartments, who don't talk to each other. The only explanation for the currently planned changes. Amazing, do they even think? :lol:

    They could focus efforts on something much more important instead (I guess many people here can think of something :wink:) and just keep it as it is now.
    You reveal yourself best in how you play.

    Kelces - Argonian Templar
    Farel Donvu - Dark Elf Sorcerer
    Navam Llervu - Dark Elf Dragonknight
    Arvena Ralen - Dark Elf Templar
    Nilonwy - Wood Elf Nightblade
    Jurupari - Argonian Warden
    Kú-Chulainn - Argonian Sorcerer
    PC - EU
    For the Pact!
  • Uryel
    Uryel
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    What is your argument? That "Stealthy" and "Hunter's Eye" passive descriptions both contain the words "stealth", "3m", "by", and "radius"? And because of that they kept "parts" of the passive?

    Oh, can I play that game too ?

    Unforeseen Bulk : Your stealth bonus is removed. You will be detected from further away by a 3m radius compared to your previous experience. Congo rats, you're now as bulky as a much larger Nord or Orc.
    Edited by Uryel on February 8, 2019 8:54PM
    max_only wrote: »
    Bosmers sneaking past all the dangers in the woods. Come upon a cultist doing a ritual? Sneak past. Come upon a brigand ambush? Sneak past. Come upon a mighty beast? Sneak past. The feeling of “yesssss” when you can squeeze by in tight spaces unnoticed. Sometimes I’m able to take what I need from right under their noses.
  • BlueRaven
    BlueRaven
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    Uryel wrote: »
    Uryel wrote: »
    What is your argument? That "Stealthy" and "Hunter's Eye" passive descriptions both contain the words "stealth", "3m", "by", and "radius"? And because of that they kept "parts" of the passive?

    Oh, can I play that game too ?

    Unforeseen Bulk : Your stealth bonus is removed. You will be detected from further away by a 3m radius compared to your previous experience. Congo rats, you're now as bulky as a much larger Nord or Orc.

    Yeah, but they are still supporting the "game mechanic" so what's the problem?! :D
  • BlueRaven
    BlueRaven
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    Eiron77 wrote: »

    My ESO Bosmer is as identical as possible to my first TES Morrowind character. It was my first character made in ESO (I even stayed up late on the night of ESO's launch to ensure I secured the name--I had to work the next day, lol). There was a semblance of it in WoW with a dark-haired blood elf rogue that was highly enjoyable to play in BC and Wrath. I then created it in Skyrim after I tried a Breton for a change of pace, but still went back to my origins eventually.

    I did the same thing! I secured the names of my three "mains" from WoW. Although here in ESO my "Rouge" took over as my true main. What I did in the ESO beta was that I got my character creation sliders in place, took screenshots, and then when the game went live it was easy to secure them.

    (A quick aside.)
    I recommend if you are going to do a necromancer, to make the character now, get your sliders in place and secure a name. Then when it goes live, you can delete the place holder, you have the name saved and you can quickly make your toon.

    I don't really do trials much myself, I am in a really good auction guild that does a lot of social stuff as well. In trials I am more of an alternate, but they like taking me along because WoW's raids have trained me well not to stand in fire. :D

    •••

    Yeah the loss of stealth is going to impact my play a lot (if it goes through). It's just all super depressing. I hope the class (race?) devs have brought it up again, and there is a new pass this monday.
    Edited by BlueRaven on February 9, 2019 2:02AM
  • Eiron77
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    I did the same thing! I secured the names of my three "mains" from WoW.

    Haha! Nice! Yup, I did the same thing with the sliders. And yeah, I quickly figured out I wasn't the only one when the name of my DK (Death Knight) was taken even though I'd wasted no time after making the Bosmer first.
    Yeah the loss of stealth is going to impact my play a lot (if it goes through). It's just all super depressing. I hope the class (race?) devs have brought it up again, and there is a new pass this monday.

    This. Here's to hoping man.
  • BlueRaven
    BlueRaven
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  • anadandy
    anadandy
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    *sigh*

    Why do people not understand "Less useful in PVE is not the same as zero use in PVE"

    I officially give up.

  • Cundu_Ertur
    Cundu_Ertur
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    There's one guy there who just pulls up things at random "oh, health regen is useless in PVE, it's a PVP only skill, but no-one is complaining about that, so shut up Bosmer." WT actual HHF.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • anadandy
    anadandy
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    Yup and then there's the "Lots of passives are useless in PVE so its fine!" - ooookay.
  • BlueRaven
    BlueRaven
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    There's one guy there who just pulls up things at random "oh, health regen is useless in PVE, it's a PVP only skill, but no-one is complaining about that, so shut up Bosmer." WT actual HHF.

    Those two posters in that thread are just baffling me.

    I think one of them is saying something along the lines of, “all anyone cares about is dps, all this other stuff is unimportant, and since they are unimportant then it’s equally unimportant for PvE and PvP” or something.

    And the other is like “I have tons of gear and my enchants are all all in place, so sprinting and extra healing means nothing to me in trials. So to me they are pvp only passives” if I am understanding them correctly.

    I might be wrong in my interpretations but yeah, wtf?
  • AndrejLeo
    AndrejLeo
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    Im still back here praying for Viable Woodelf bow/bow pve builds ;---;
  • Uryel
    Uryel
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    anadandy wrote: »
    I officially give up.

    Don't. We can't afford it, mate :)
    max_only wrote: »
    Bosmers sneaking past all the dangers in the woods. Come upon a cultist doing a ritual? Sneak past. Come upon a brigand ambush? Sneak past. Come upon a mighty beast? Sneak past. The feeling of “yesssss” when you can squeeze by in tight spaces unnoticed. Sometimes I’m able to take what I need from right under their noses.
  • BlueRaven
    BlueRaven
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    So the notes for update 4.3.3 are up and the Bosmer roll got a buff... And we still have stealth detection... /sigh

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458556/pts-patch-notes-v4-3-3#latest
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