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PvE vs. PvP racial passives
MLGProPlayer
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✭✭✭✭✭
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Alcast recently highlighted a key issue with the latest racial re-balancing: some races have received passsives that are strictly PvP-oriented.
This is problematic because ESO does not balance PvE and PvP separately. All passives need to be useful in both modes. This is especially true of racial passives since these are foundational skills for every build. There are only 3 passives for every race so balancing them around PvE and PvP really isn't a big ask.
ZOS, this patch is supposed to correct balance issues, not create new ones. Let's think a little more critically about the changes that are being made. I know that Brian is a "PvP guy", but your new role as combat design LEAD is to balance for ESO as a whole, not just PvP.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_Gilliam
Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 10, 2019 6:32AM This is problematic because ESO does not balance PvE and PvP separately. All passives need to be useful in both modes. This is especially true of racial passives since these are foundational skills for every build. There are only 3 passives for every race so balancing them around PvE and PvP really isn't a big ask.
ZOS, this patch is supposed to correct balance issues, not create new ones. Let's think a little more critically about the changes that are being made. I know that Brian is a "PvP guy", but your new role as combat design LEAD is to balance for ESO as a whole, not just PvP.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_Gilliam
14
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validifyedneb18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »Alcast recently highlighted a key issue with the latest racial re-balancing: some races have received passsives that are strictly PvP-oriented.
This is problematic because ESO does not balance PvE and PvP separately. All passives need to be useful in both modes. This is especially true of racial passives since these are foundational skills for every build. There are only 3 passives for every raaceso balancing them around PvE and PvP really isn't a big ask.
ZOS, this patch is supposed to correct balance issues, not create new ones. Let's think a little more critically about the changes that are being made. I knoe that Brian is a "PvP guy", but your new role as combat design LEAD is to balance for ESO as a whole, not just PvP.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_Gilliam
No link, no discussion as to why, just a claim, a complaint and an @ to people who probably have a lot more to do than just read your posts about things you dont like.
Link the video and then we can discuss why you are probably wrong (but hey, you might be right, who knows).
(Also just to preempt where you are going with this, ZOS clearly want a utility passive on most/all races, hence why you got your Altmer stamina regen, so in a way, you're justifying that change.)EU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade11 -
ChunkyCat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭“People need to do tests first. We need to see.”
Heh. So even your almighty Alcast admits that jumping to conclusions is worthless.14 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »Link?validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Alcast recently highlighted a key issue with the latest racial re-balancing: some races have received passsives that are strictly PvP-oriented.
This is problematic because ESO does not balance PvE and PvP separately. All passives need to be useful in both modes. This is especially true of racial passives since these are foundational skills for every build. There are only 3 passives for every raaceso balancing them around PvE and PvP really isn't a big ask.
ZOS, this patch is supposed to correct balance issues, not create new ones. Let's think a little more critically about the changes that are being made. I knoe that Brian is a "PvP guy", but your new role as combat design LEAD is to balance for ESO as a whole, not just PvP.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_Gilliam
No link, no discussion as to why, just a claim, a complaint and an @ to people who probably have a lot more to do than just read your posts about things you dont like.
Link the video and then we can discuss why you are probably wrong (but hey, you might be right, who knows).
(Also just to preempt where you are going with this, ZOS clearly want a utility passive on most/all races, hence why you got your Altmer stamina regen, so in a way, you're justifying that change.)
"Wood Elf
Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453551/upcoming-racial-balance-changes-for-update-21/p1
Well it's been brought up to death in an ever increasingly exasperated Wood Elf community, but stealth detect is useless in PvE. It's strictly a PvP passive. So theres that.
Yes, I suppose a roll with a speed boost (and armor pen boost with the latest update) might be occasionally used in PvE, but in a dungeon with limited space any normal player PvE player might just do better saving the 3 skill points in that trait for something that is actually useful. But in the open fields of Cyrodiil, that really shines as a gap closer or escape.Edited by BlueRaven on February 10, 2019 1:54AM10 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There have always been passives that are only useful in PvP. Orcs have always had the speed, healing done which is more or less unneeded, health recovery isn’t really good in PvE, their only useful PvE passives were melee damage and max stamina. I think what’s really going on here is that the meta has shifted and people are annoyed as they always are. High elves and Redguards have been top DPS races for PvE and now they’re not. I honesty wouldn’t expect ZOS to care, I think they want other races to be more appealing.
I’d also add that adding PvP passives not only makes more races more viable in PvP, but it controls the power creep in PvE while not really changing PvP at all because a wider range of abilties are useful in PvP outside do damage and sustain.Edited by Vapirko on February 10, 2019 2:10AM6 -
validifyedneb18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »Link?validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Alcast recently highlighted a key issue with the latest racial re-balancing: some races have received passsives that are strictly PvP-oriented.
This is problematic because ESO does not balance PvE and PvP separately. All passives need to be useful in both modes. This is especially true of racial passives since these are foundational skills for every build. There are only 3 passives for every raaceso balancing them around PvE and PvP really isn't a big ask.
ZOS, this patch is supposed to correct balance issues, not create new ones. Let's think a little more critically about the changes that are being made. I knoe that Brian is a "PvP guy", but your new role as combat design LEAD is to balance for ESO as a whole, not just PvP.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_Gilliam
No link, no discussion as to why, just a claim, a complaint and an @ to people who probably have a lot more to do than just read your posts about things you dont like.
Link the video and then we can discuss why you are probably wrong (but hey, you might be right, who knows).
(Also just to preempt where you are going with this, ZOS clearly want a utility passive on most/all races, hence why you got your Altmer stamina regen, so in a way, you're justifying that change.)
"Wood Elf
Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453551/upcoming-racial-balance-changes-for-update-21/p1
Well it's been brought up to death in an ever increasingly exasperated Wood Elf community, but stealth detect is useless in PvE. It's strictly a PvP passive. So theres that.
Yes, I suppose a roll with a speed boost (and armor pen boost with the latest update) might be occasionally used in PvE, but in a dungeon with limited space any normal player PvE player might just do better saving the 3 skill points in that trait for something that is actually useful. But in the open fields of Cyrodiil, that really shines as a gap closer or escape.
Right, and if you're a DD all you care about it potential damage.
A Nord has Cold immunity and resistance
A Dunmer has Burn immunity and resistance
A Altmer has off-stat regen
A Breton has magic resistance that doubbles with a status effect
even the praised new master race, the furry, has stealth detection "useless in PVE".
Seems like everything is in order to me.Edited by validifyedneb18_ESO on February 10, 2019 2:10AMEU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade4 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »Link?There have always been passives that are only useful in PvP. Orcs have always had the speed, healing done which is more or less unneeded, health recovery isn’t really good in PvE, their only useful PvE passives were melee damage and max stamina. I think what’s really going on here is that the meta has shifted and people are annoyed as they always are. High elves and Redguards have been top DPS races for PvE and now they’re not. I honesty wouldn’t expect ZOS to care, I think they want other races to be more appealing.
Um... What????? These are all useful in PvE do I really need to give you examples why?validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Right, and if you're a DD all you care about it potential damage.
A Nord has Cold immunity and resistance
A Dunmer has Burn immunity and resistance
A Altmer has off-stat regen
A Breton has magic resistance that doubbles with a status effect
even the praised new master race, the furry, has stealth detection "useless in PVE".
Seems like everything is in order to me.
"Right, and if you're a DD since I am a DD all you I care about it is potential damage. Although other players may do different things then I do.
A Nord has Cold immunity and resistance
A Dunmer has Burn immunity and resistance
A Altmer has off-stat regen
A Breton has magic resistance that doubbles with a status effect
even the praised new master race, the furry, has stealth detection "useless in PVE" incredibly useful in 3 dlcs (thieves guild, assassins guild, and imperial city) and the justice system. As well as PvP.
Seems like everything is in order to me. bosmers got shafted."
I could go into a long explanation showing where you went wrong, but I just fixed it for you.5 -
validifyedneb18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »Link?There have always been passives that are only useful in PvP. Orcs have always had the speed, healing done which is more or less unneeded, health recovery isn’t really good in PvE, their only useful PvE passives were melee damage and max stamina. I think what’s really going on here is that the meta has shifted and people are annoyed as they always are. High elves and Redguards have been top DPS races for PvE and now they’re not. I honesty wouldn’t expect ZOS to care, I think they want other races to be more appealing.
Um... What????? These are all useful in PvE do I really need to give you examples why?validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Right, and if you're a DD all you care about it potential damage.
A Nord has Cold immunity and resistance
A Dunmer has Burn immunity and resistance
A Altmer has off-stat regen
A Breton has magic resistance that doubbles with a status effect
even the praised new master race, the furry, has stealth detection "useless in PVE".
Seems like everything is in order to me.
"Right, and if you're a DD since I am a DD all you I care about it is potential damage. Although other players may do different things then I do.
A Nord has Cold immunity and resistance
A Dunmer has Burn immunity and resistance
A Altmer has off-stat regen
A Breton has magic resistance that doubbles with a status effect
even the praised new master race, the furry, has stealth detection "useless in PVE" incredibly useful in 3 dlcs (thieves guild, assassins guild, and imperial city) and the justice system. As well as PvP.
Seems like everything is in order to me. bosmers got shafted."
I could go into a long explanation showing where you went wrong, but I just fixed it for you.
You complain because stuff is for PVE, then I say that thats true across the board, now you pull a 180 and start talking about PVP. Can you make your mind up.
Your argument is so transient I dont even understand what your problem is. Infact having thought about it, It sounds like your issue is somewhat different to what this thread is seemingly even talking about. There are plenty of bosmer discussions ongoing asking for better passives and making their point.Edited by validifyedneb18_ESO on February 10, 2019 2:36AMEU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade2 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Taleof2Cities wrote: »Link?There have always been passives that are only useful in PvP. Orcs have always had the speed, healing done which is more or less unneeded, health recovery isn’t really good in PvE, their only useful PvE passives were melee damage and max stamina. I think what’s really going on here is that the meta has shifted and people are annoyed as they always are. High elves and Redguards have been top DPS races for PvE and now they’re not. I honesty wouldn’t expect ZOS to care, I think they want other races to be more appealing.
Um... What????? These are all useful in PvE do I really need to give you examples why?validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Right, and if you're a DD all you care about it potential damage.
A Nord has Cold immunity and resistance
A Dunmer has Burn immunity and resistance
A Altmer has off-stat regen
A Breton has magic resistance that doubbles with a status effect
even the praised new master race, the furry, has stealth detection "useless in PVE".
Seems like everything is in order to me.
"Right, and if you're a DD since I am a DD all you I care about it is potential damage. Although other players may do different things then I do.
A Nord has Cold immunity and resistance
A Dunmer has Burn immunity and resistance
A Altmer has off-stat regen
A Breton has magic resistance that doubbles with a status effect
even the praised new master race, the furry, has stealth detection "useless in PVE" incredibly useful in 3 dlcs (thieves guild, assassins guild, and imperial city) and the justice system. As well as PvP.
Seems like everything is in order to me. bosmers got shafted."
I could go into a long explanation showing where you went wrong, but I just fixed it for you.
You complain because stuff is for PVE, then I say that thats true across the board, now you pull a 180 and start talking about PVP. Can you make your mind up.
Your argument is so transient I dont even understand what your problem is.
I am complaining that bosmers have a PvP only passive (stealth detection).
You said things like;
"even the praised new master race, the furry, has stealth detection "useless in PVE".
Seems like everything is in order to me."
To me this is saying, "Kahjits have an improved stealth passive which is a pvp only passive." And I have to say that is crazy as improved stealth is incredibly useful in PvE. Or do you think kahjits ALSO have a stealth detection passive? They do not. They kept their improved stealth.Edited by BlueRaven on February 10, 2019 2:40AM2 -
Fur_like_snow✭✭✭✭✭
✭I had the idea of instead of pen after dodge roll wood elf would get minor protection for the duration instead? Would that be useful in PvE? How about minor evasion?Edited by Fur_like_snow on February 10, 2019 2:44AM0 -
validifyedneb18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Taleof2Cities wrote: »Link?There have always been passives that are only useful in PvP. Orcs have always had the speed, healing done which is more or less unneeded, health recovery isn’t really good in PvE, their only useful PvE passives were melee damage and max stamina. I think what’s really going on here is that the meta has shifted and people are annoyed as they always are. High elves and Redguards have been top DPS races for PvE and now they’re not. I honesty wouldn’t expect ZOS to care, I think they want other races to be more appealing.
Um... What????? These are all useful in PvE do I really need to give you examples why?validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Right, and if you're a DD all you care about it potential damage.
A Nord has Cold immunity and resistance
A Dunmer has Burn immunity and resistance
A Altmer has off-stat regen
A Breton has magic resistance that doubbles with a status effect
even the praised new master race, the furry, has stealth detection "useless in PVE".
Seems like everything is in order to me.
"Right, and if you're a DD since I am a DD all you I care about it is potential damage. Although other players may do different things then I do.
A Nord has Cold immunity and resistance
A Dunmer has Burn immunity and resistance
A Altmer has off-stat regen
A Breton has magic resistance that doubbles with a status effect
even the praised new master race, the furry, has stealth detection "useless in PVE" incredibly useful in 3 dlcs (thieves guild, assassins guild, and imperial city) and the justice system. As well as PvP.
Seems like everything is in order to me. bosmers got shafted."
I could go into a long explanation showing where you went wrong, but I just fixed it for you.
You complain because stuff is for PVE, then I say that thats true across the board, now you pull a 180 and start talking about PVP. Can you make your mind up.
Your argument is so transient I dont even understand what your problem is.
I am complaining that bosmers have a PvP only passive (stealth detection).
You said things like;
"even the praised new master race, the furry, has stealth detection "useless in PVE".
Seems like everything is in order to me."
To me this is saying, "Kahjits have an improved stealth passive which is a pvp only passive." And I have to say that is crazy as improved stealth is incredibly useful in PvE. Or do you think kahjits ALSO have a stealth detection passive? They do not. They kept their improved stealth.
Well, other than encouraging you to add your voice to the discussions relating to this bosmer passive, I can only say that this thread is a complaint that PVP passives are causing inbalance for PVE. Not that any particular passive is useless (For both). So I think you're in the wrong thread here.Edited by validifyedneb18_ESO on February 10, 2019 2:44AMEU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade0 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Taleof2Cities wrote: »Link?There have always been passives that are only useful in PvP. Orcs have always had the speed, healing done which is more or less unneeded, health recovery isn’t really good in PvE, their only useful PvE passives were melee damage and max stamina. I think what’s really going on here is that the meta has shifted and people are annoyed as they always are. High elves and Redguards have been top DPS races for PvE and now they’re not. I honesty wouldn’t expect ZOS to care, I think they want other races to be more appealing.
Um... What????? These are all useful in PvE do I really need to give you examples why?validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Right, and if you're a DD all you care about it potential damage.
A Nord has Cold immunity and resistance
A Dunmer has Burn immunity and resistance
A Altmer has off-stat regen
A Breton has magic resistance that doubbles with a status effect
even the praised new master race, the furry, has stealth detection "useless in PVE".
Seems like everything is in order to me.
"Right, and if you're a DD since I am a DD all you I care about it is potential damage. Although other players may do different things then I do.
A Nord has Cold immunity and resistance
A Dunmer has Burn immunity and resistance
A Altmer has off-stat regen
A Breton has magic resistance that doubbles with a status effect
even the praised new master race, the furry, has stealth detection "useless in PVE" incredibly useful in 3 dlcs (thieves guild, assassins guild, and imperial city) and the justice system. As well as PvP.
Seems like everything is in order to me. bosmers got shafted."
I could go into a long explanation showing where you went wrong, but I just fixed it for you.
You complain because stuff is for PVE, then I say that thats true across the board, now you pull a 180 and start talking about PVP. Can you make your mind up.
Your argument is so transient I dont even understand what your problem is.
I am complaining that bosmers have a PvP only passive (stealth detection).
You said things like;
"even the praised new master race, the furry, has stealth detection "useless in PVE".
Seems like everything is in order to me."
To me this is saying, "Kahjits have an improved stealth passive which is a pvp only passive." And I have to say that is crazy as improved stealth is incredibly useful in PvE. Or do you think kahjits ALSO have a stealth detection passive? They do not. They kept their improved stealth.
Well, other than encouraging you to add your voice to the discussions relating to this bosmer passive, I can only say that this thread is a complaint that PVP passives are causing inbalance for PVE. Not that any particular passive is useless (For both). So I think you're in the wrong thread here.MLGProPlayer wrote: »Alcast recently highlighted a key issue with the latest racial re-balancing: some races have received passsives that are strictly PvP-oriented.
This line, "some races have received passsives that are strictly PvP-oriented". is what caught my attention. I am salty, triggered, angry, (what ever synonym/adjective you want to place) about it. We have been placing post after post about it (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453572/bosmer-racial-change-that-is-illogical-and-unnecessary/p1), and the best response we have got so far is "We want to open up stealth gameplay to more races. We have a plan which we will get to at a later time." Literally a "Don't worry, we will fix it later, just don't ask when" response. (I can get a quote for you but I am pretty upset, triggered, angry... Right now. But that is basically what they said.)
We have been trying for weeks to retain our stealth bonus, most of the other posters and myself, don't care about the "roll" part as it's so situational it might as well not exist. We just want our stealth back.5 -
validifyedneb18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Taleof2Cities wrote: »Link?There have always been passives that are only useful in PvP. Orcs have always had the speed, healing done which is more or less unneeded, health recovery isn’t really good in PvE, their only useful PvE passives were melee damage and max stamina. I think what’s really going on here is that the meta has shifted and people are annoyed as they always are. High elves and Redguards have been top DPS races for PvE and now they’re not. I honesty wouldn’t expect ZOS to care, I think they want other races to be more appealing.
Um... What????? These are all useful in PvE do I really need to give you examples why?validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Right, and if you're a DD all you care about it potential damage.
A Nord has Cold immunity and resistance
A Dunmer has Burn immunity and resistance
A Altmer has off-stat regen
A Breton has magic resistance that doubbles with a status effect
even the praised new master race, the furry, has stealth detection "useless in PVE".
Seems like everything is in order to me.
"Right, and if you're a DD since I am a DD all you I care about it is potential damage. Although other players may do different things then I do.
A Nord has Cold immunity and resistance
A Dunmer has Burn immunity and resistance
A Altmer has off-stat regen
A Breton has magic resistance that doubbles with a status effect
even the praised new master race, the furry, has stealth detection "useless in PVE" incredibly useful in 3 dlcs (thieves guild, assassins guild, and imperial city) and the justice system. As well as PvP.
Seems like everything is in order to me. bosmers got shafted."
I could go into a long explanation showing where you went wrong, but I just fixed it for you.
You complain because stuff is for PVE, then I say that thats true across the board, now you pull a 180 and start talking about PVP. Can you make your mind up.
Your argument is so transient I dont even understand what your problem is.
I am complaining that bosmers have a PvP only passive (stealth detection).
You said things like;
"even the praised new master race, the furry, has stealth detection "useless in PVE".
Seems like everything is in order to me."
To me this is saying, "Kahjits have an improved stealth passive which is a pvp only passive." And I have to say that is crazy as improved stealth is incredibly useful in PvE. Or do you think kahjits ALSO have a stealth detection passive? They do not. They kept their improved stealth.
Well, other than encouraging you to add your voice to the discussions relating to this bosmer passive, I can only say that this thread is a complaint that PVP passives are causing inbalance for PVE. Not that any particular passive is useless (For both). So I think you're in the wrong thread here.MLGProPlayer wrote: »Alcast recently highlighted a key issue with the latest racial re-balancing: some races have received passsives that are strictly PvP-oriented.
This line, "some races have received passsives that are strictly PvP-oriented". is what caught my attention. I am salty, triggered, angry, (what ever synonym/adjective you want to place) about it. We have been placing post after post about it (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453572/bosmer-racial-change-that-is-illogical-and-unnecessary/p1), and the best response we have got so far is "We want to open up stealth gameplay to more races. We have a plan which we will get to at a later time." Literally a "Don't worry, we will fix it later, just don't ask when" response. (I can get a quote for you but I am pretty upset, triggered, angry... Right now. But that is basically what they said.)
We have been trying for weeks to retain our stealth bonus, most of the other posters and myself, don't care about the "roll" part as it's so situational it might as well not exist. We just want our stealth back.
Just trying to make sure this conversation doesnt get derailed from the point, and that point being that the OP is wrong >.-EU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade2 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Just trying to make sure this conversation doesnt get derailed from the point, and that point being that the OP is wrong >.-
Well going back to the original post, the OP is correct.MLGProPlayer wrote: »Alcast recently highlighted a key issue with the latest racial re-balancing: some races have received passsives that are strictly PvP-oriented.
This is problematic because ESO does not balance PvE and PvP separately. All passives need to be useful in both modes. This is especially true of racial passives since these are foundational skills for every build. There are only 3 passives for every race so balancing them around PvE and PvP really isn't a big ask.
ZOS, this patch is supposed to correct balance issues, not create new ones. Let's think a little more critically about the changes that are being made. I knoe that Brian is a "PvP guy", but your new role as combat design LEAD is to balance for ESO as a whole, not just PvP.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_Gilliam
They have replaced stealth with a pvp-only stealth detect for Wood Elves. Bosmers have received a passive that is good only for PvP mode. The lead is from Cyrodiil and he needs to respect the fact there is other content besides PvP.
Where ever this topic of PvP-only passives is being talked about, I want to bring up this wood elf passive. I really don't care about the other bosmer passives as I am sure I can still do CR+3 after its all said and done, even on any of the other races. But I rolled my main, my Bosmer, because I LOVE stealth and I have been playing that character since the game began.
With that said I will leave the thread for now. I did not mean to attack you or be aggressive in any way, and if I misread this thread I apologize. But the Bosmer thing is SUPER annoying to me.Edited by BlueRaven on February 10, 2019 3:19AM9 -
validifyedneb18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Just trying to make sure this conversation doesnt get derailed from the point, and that point being that the OP is wrong >.-
Well going back to the original post, the OP is correct.MLGProPlayer wrote: »Alcast recently highlighted a key issue with the latest racial re-balancing: some races have received passsives that are strictly PvP-oriented.
This is problematic because ESO does not balance PvE and PvP separately. All passives need to be useful in both modes. This is especially true of racial passives since these are foundational skills for every build. There are only 3 passives for every race so balancing them around PvE and PvP really isn't a big ask.
ZOS, this patch is supposed to correct balance issues, not create new ones. Let's think a little more critically about the changes that are being made. I knoe that Brian is a "PvP guy", but your new role as combat design LEAD is to balance for ESO as a whole, not just PvP.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_Gilliam
They have replaced stealth with a pvp-only stealth detect for Wood Elves. Bosmers have received a passive that is good only for PvP mode. The lead is from Cyrodiil and he needs to respect the fact there is other content besides PvP.
Where ever this topic of PvP-only passives is being talked about, I want to bring up this wood elf passive. I really don't care about the other bosmer passives as I am sure I can still do CR+3 after its all said and done, even on any of the other races. But I rolled my main, my Bosmer, because I LOVE stealth and I have been playing that character since the game began.
With that said I will leave the thread for now. I did not mean to attack you or be aggressive in any way, and if I misread this thread I apologize. But the Bosmer thing is SUPER annoying to me.
You're not complaining that bosmer have been stuck with a PVP passive, you're arguing that Bosmer have been stuck with a passive that is neither useful for PVP or PVE. It's completely different.
Looks like everyone is getting a PVP utility passive, if you dont like your passive then go make your case for a rework. Not here though. That would be off-topic.EU: Magden, Magknight, Stamsorc(*2), Magsorc
NA: Magplar, Magden, PotatoBlade1 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Just trying to make sure this conversation doesnt get derailed from the point, and that point being that the OP is wrong >.-
Well going back to the original post, the OP is correct.MLGProPlayer wrote: »Alcast recently highlighted a key issue with the latest racial re-balancing: some races have received passsives that are strictly PvP-oriented.
This is problematic because ESO does not balance PvE and PvP separately. All passives need to be useful in both modes. This is especially true of racial passives since these are foundational skills for every build. There are only 3 passives for every race so balancing them around PvE and PvP really isn't a big ask.
ZOS, this patch is supposed to correct balance issues, not create new ones. Let's think a little more critically about the changes that are being made. I knoe that Brian is a "PvP guy", but your new role as combat design LEAD is to balance for ESO as a whole, not just PvP.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_Gilliam
They have replaced stealth with a pvp-only stealth detect for Wood Elves. Bosmers have received a passive that is good only for PvP mode. The lead is from Cyrodiil and he needs to respect the fact there is other content besides PvP.
Where ever this topic of PvP-only passives is being talked about, I want to bring up this wood elf passive. I really don't care about the other bosmer passives as I am sure I can still do CR+3 after its all said and done, even on any of the other races. But I rolled my main, my Bosmer, because I LOVE stealth and I have been playing that character since the game began.
With that said I will leave the thread for now. I did not mean to attack you or be aggressive in any way, and if I misread this thread I apologize. But the Bosmer thing is SUPER annoying to me.
You're not complaining that bosmer have been stuck with a PVP passive, you're arguing that Bosmer have been stuck with a passive that is neither useful for PVP or PVE. It's completely different.
Looks like everyone is getting a PVP utility passive, if you dont like your passive then go make your case for a rework. Not here though. That would be off-topic.
Stealth detection is a PvP-only passive. This thread is discussing the problem of PvP-only (or even PvE-only, if there were any) passives added to the game during this PTS cycle. The poster you quoted was not going off-topic in any way. But thanks for your "concern".
There is a huge difference between passives that are only useful in PvP vs. passives that are more useful in PvP than PvE (but are objectively still useful in both).Edited by MLGProPlayer on February 10, 2019 3:40AM8 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭How to flaw passives and balance when doing something for PVP without accounting PVE?
Let's look at orc and 4.3.0 pts version which now may be considered as successful one:
Orc gets weapon damage, 500 health and stamina, stamina recovery on proc (useful both for PVP, PVE tanks and PVE dps) and healing received useful for PVP and PVE (tanks). DPS wise stam races are almost ideally balanced one against each other, only imperial required some buff.
What we got in 4.3.2? Orc is stripped from proc stamina recovery and healing received making his passives not so useful for PVE tank (though ton of people run orcs now as PVE tanks), remains ~ same good for PVP and became OP for PVE dps simply by amount of stats valuable for stam dps. So instead of well-around balanced race we received limited in roles but totally breaking PVE balance race, what's the point of this changes really? Probably ZOS wanted to slightly increase orc health and stamina "due to CP changes", but things went out of control and so somebody orc-biased just re-writed passives so now they ~ same for PVP, but from PVE dps side they are crazy good.
"I really would like to know how they made the calculations" (c) Alcast about 4.3.2
3 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »Taleof2Cities wrote: »Link?validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »Alcast recently highlighted a key issue with the latest racial re-balancing: some races have received passsives that are strictly PvP-oriented.
This is problematic because ESO does not balance PvE and PvP separately. All passives need to be useful in both modes. This is especially true of racial passives since these are foundational skills for every build. There are only 3 passives for every raaceso balancing them around PvE and PvP really isn't a big ask.
ZOS, this patch is supposed to correct balance issues, not create new ones. Let's think a little more critically about the changes that are being made. I knoe that Brian is a "PvP guy", but your new role as combat design LEAD is to balance for ESO as a whole, not just PvP.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_Gilliam
No link, no discussion as to why, just a claim, a complaint and an @ to people who probably have a lot more to do than just read your posts about things you dont like.
Link the video and then we can discuss why you are probably wrong (but hey, you might be right, who knows).
(Also just to preempt where you are going with this, ZOS clearly want a utility passive on most/all races, hence why you got your Altmer stamina regen, so in a way, you're justifying that change.)
"Wood Elf
Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453551/upcoming-racial-balance-changes-for-update-21/p1
Well it's been brought up to death in an ever increasingly exasperated Wood Elf community, but stealth detect is useless in PvE. It's strictly a PvP passive. So theres that.
Yes, I suppose a roll with a speed boost (and armor pen boost with the latest update) might be occasionally used in PvE, but in a dungeon with limited space any normal player PvE player might just do better saving the 3 skill points in that trait for something that is actually useful. But in the open fields of Cyrodiil, that really shines as a gap closer or escape.
Right, and if you're a DD all you care about it potential damage.
A Nord has Cold immunity and resistance
A Dunmer has Burn immunity and resistance
A Altmer has off-stat regen
A Breton has magic resistance that doubbles with a status effect
even the praised new master race, the furry, has stealth detection "useless in PVE".
Seems like everything is in order to me.
The bolded part is factually incorrect. Khajiit are the ONLY race to have a stealth bonus to hiding at this point. The Bosmer, who used to have a hiding bonus have lost it and had the completely useless in PVE detection bonus added. There are two different things that are going on. Stealth, as in hiding, is useful in PVP and PVE. Stealth detection is only useful in PVP because not one single enemy NPC uses stealth. At all. Ever. So discussing how a race is crippled by having a PVP only ability as a racial is entirely valid with regards to the Bosmer. The Orcish speed boost is useful for farming mats, and is in no way conditional on fighting other players. The Breton AP bonus is useful with scouting missions and PVE in Cyrodiil.Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.5 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »Link?There have always been passives that are only useful in PvP. Orcs have always had the speed, healing done which is more or less unneeded, health recovery isn’t really good in PvE, their only useful PvE passives were melee damage and max stamina. I think what’s really going on here is that the meta has shifted and people are annoyed as they always are. High elves and Redguards have been top DPS races for PvE and now they’re not. I honesty wouldn’t expect ZOS to care, I think they want other races to be more appealing.
Um... What????? These are all useful in PvE do I really need to give you examples why?
Yes please give me some examples why. Healing done and health recovery aren’t really utilized in PvE unless maybe you’re wanted an orc tank. Vigor is more than enough for solo play and if you have a dedicated healer you’re good. You’re not gonna use trolll king in PvE. The only place where the speed can potentially be useful is vMA or running around gathering mats.
Edited by Vapirko on February 10, 2019 6:39AM0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »Link?There have always been passives that are only useful in PvP. Orcs have always had the speed, healing done which is more or less unneeded, health recovery isn’t really good in PvE, their only useful PvE passives were melee damage and max stamina. I think what’s really going on here is that the meta has shifted and people are annoyed as they always are. High elves and Redguards have been top DPS races for PvE and now they’re not. I honesty wouldn’t expect ZOS to care, I think they want other races to be more appealing.
Um... What????? These are all useful in PvE do I really need to give you examples why?
Yes please give me some examples why. Healing done and health recovery aren’t really utilized in PvP unless maybe you’re wanted an orc tank. Vigor is more than enough for solo play and if you have a dedicated healer you’re good. You’re not gonna use trolll king in PvE. The only place where the speed can potentially be useful is vMA or running around gathering mats.
Sprint speed and cost - performing various mechanics in various dungeons and trials. Running for shadow callers in MoL, running with shadow orbs in CR etc
I'm ready to exchange penetration after roll-dodge for that orcish sprint anytime.Edited by MartiniDaniels on February 10, 2019 6:27AM4 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Taleof2Cities wrote: »Link?There have always been passives that are only useful in PvP. Orcs have always had the speed, healing done which is more or less unneeded, health recovery isn’t really good in PvE, their only useful PvE passives were melee damage and max stamina. I think what’s really going on here is that the meta has shifted and people are annoyed as they always are. High elves and Redguards have been top DPS races for PvE and now they’re not. I honesty wouldn’t expect ZOS to care, I think they want other races to be more appealing.
Um... What????? These are all useful in PvE do I really need to give you examples why?
Yes please give me some examples why. Healing done and health recovery aren’t really utilized in PvP unless maybe you’re wanted an orc tank. Vigor is more than enough for solo play and if you have a dedicated healer you’re good. You’re not gonna use trolll king in PvE. The only place where the speed can potentially be useful is vMA or running around gathering mats.
Sprint speed and cost - performing various mechanics in various dungeons and trials. Running for shadow callers in MoL, running with shadow orbs in CR etc
I'm ready to exchange penetration after roll-dodge for that orcish sprint anytime.
I’m not saying that the roll dodge pen is good. People gotta stop comparing that one Bosmer passive to other passives. I’m just saying all classes get by fine in PvE w/out sprint speed. It’s 100% not necessary. Big groups will have rapids if necessary, completely negating the need to have extra sprint speed.0 -
Rikumaru✭✭✭✭✭
✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »Link?There have always been passives that are only useful in PvP. Orcs have always had the speed, healing done which is more or less unneeded, health recovery isn’t really good in PvE, their only useful PvE passives were melee damage and max stamina. I think what’s really going on here is that the meta has shifted and people are annoyed as they always are. High elves and Redguards have been top DPS races for PvE and now they’re not. I honesty wouldn’t expect ZOS to care, I think they want other races to be more appealing.
Um... What????? These are all useful in PvE do I really need to give you examples why?
Yes please give me some examples why. Healing done and health recovery aren’t really utilized in PvP unless maybe you’re wanted an orc tank. Vigor is more than enough for solo play and if you have a dedicated healer you’re good. You’re not gonna use trolll king in PvE. The only place where the speed can potentially be useful is vMA or running around gathering mats.
Untrue, at least in sotha you can run troll king + willows with orc or another HP regen race and you can hit up to 5.5k HP recovery. That being said HP regen builds definitely needed to be nerfed so I'm glad they cut down HP regen on passives.Overload rework. Power Overload now does physical damage and grants you the power of a tornado: You throw a brick at the target with a light attack, and you hammer your head into that brick with every heavy attack. We have decreased its Ultimate cost, but increased the chance that you get stuck in the animation.1 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »Link?There have always been passives that are only useful in PvP. Orcs have always had the speed, healing done which is more or less unneeded, health recovery isn’t really good in PvE, their only useful PvE passives were melee damage and max stamina. I think what’s really going on here is that the meta has shifted and people are annoyed as they always are. High elves and Redguards have been top DPS races for PvE and now they’re not. I honesty wouldn’t expect ZOS to care, I think they want other races to be more appealing.
Um... What????? These are all useful in PvE do I really need to give you examples why?
Yes please give me some examples why. Healing done and health recovery aren’t really utilized in PvP unless maybe you’re wanted an orc tank. Vigor is more than enough for solo play and if you have a dedicated healer you’re good. You’re not gonna use trolll king in PvE. The only place where the speed can potentially be useful is vMA or running around gathering mats.
Untrue, at least in sotha you can run troll king + willows with orc or another HP regen race and you can hit up to 5.5k HP recovery. That being said HP regen builds definitely needed to be nerfed so I'm glad they cut down HP regen on passives.
Sorry, big mistake. Meant PvE.Edited by Vapirko on February 10, 2019 6:38AM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Alcast is one of the Class Reps last time I checked and I am pretty sure they are in on the discussion about these changes.1 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »Link?There have always been passives that are only useful in PvP. Orcs have always had the speed, healing done which is more or less unneeded, health recovery isn’t really good in PvE, their only useful PvE passives were melee damage and max stamina. I think what’s really going on here is that the meta has shifted and people are annoyed as they always are. High elves and Redguards have been top DPS races for PvE and now they’re not. I honesty wouldn’t expect ZOS to care, I think they want other races to be more appealing.
Um... What????? These are all useful in PvE do I really need to give you examples why?
Yes please give me some examples why. Healing done and health recovery aren’t really utilized in PvE unless maybe you’re wanted an orc tank. Vigor is more than enough for solo play and if you have a dedicated healer you’re good. You’re not gonna use trolll king in PvE. The only place where the speed can potentially be useful is vMA or running around gathering mats.
I completely baffled by your statement. Are you suggesting that a healing received bonus is not useful in PvE? Many classes have self heals, when leveling, questing, or doing dailies self heals are used ALL the time. Doing dailies in Summerset on my NB I am constantly using heals for myself.
If you don’t think extra healing is useful, or you think you will always have a healer with you, I have two words for you. “Maelstrom Arena.”
And sprinting is not useful in PvE? As @Cundu_Ertur mentioned above resource gathering, trials, dungeons, and even quests use sprinting. Having a bonus to sprinting helps in these situations.
Since healing received and sprinting are both used in pve and pvp they’re hardly a PvP only passive.
Meanwhile stealth detect is ONLY used against other players in PvP. It’s the only purpose of that passive. There is zero times in ALL of PvE that it’s used.
I am sorry that you feel healing received and sprinting are not used 100% of the time in pve. But that does not make them PvP only. They have their uses, especially with undergeared, solo, or leveling characters.2 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »Link?There have always been passives that are only useful in PvP. Orcs have always had the speed, healing done which is more or less unneeded, health recovery isn’t really good in PvE, their only useful PvE passives were melee damage and max stamina. I think what’s really going on here is that the meta has shifted and people are annoyed as they always are. High elves and Redguards have been top DPS races for PvE and now they’re not. I honesty wouldn’t expect ZOS to care, I think they want other races to be more appealing.
Um... What????? These are all useful in PvE do I really need to give you examples why?
Yes please give me some examples why. Healing done and health recovery aren’t really utilized in PvE unless maybe you’re wanted an orc tank. Vigor is more than enough for solo play and if you have a dedicated healer you’re good. You’re not gonna use trolll king in PvE. The only place where the speed can potentially be useful is vMA or running around gathering mats.
I completely baffled by your statement. Are you suggesting that a healing received bonus is not useful in PvE? Many classes have self heals, when leveling, questing, or doing dailies self heals are used ALL the time. Doing dailies in Summerset on my NB I am constantly using heals for myself.
If you don’t think extra healing is useful, or you think you will always have a healer with you, I have two words for you. “Maelstrom Arena.”
And sprinting is not useful in PvE? As @Cundu_Ertur mentioned above resource gathering, trials, dungeons, and even quests use sprinting. Having a bonus to sprinting helps in these situations.
Since healing received and sprinting are both used in pve and pvp they’re hardly a PvP only passive.
Meanwhile stealth detect is ONLY used against other players in PvP. It’s the only purpose of that passive. There is zero times in ALL of PvE that it’s used.
I am sorry that you feel healing received and sprinting are not used 100% of the time in pve. But that does not make them PvP only. They have their uses, especially with undergeared, solo, or leveling characters.
*sigh*3 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I like the idea, its useful and you typically want protection after an dodge.Fur_like_snow wrote: »I had the idea of instead of pen after dodge roll wood elf would get minor protection for the duration instead? Would that be useful in PvE? How about minor evasion?
Adjust as fitting.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
I like the idea, its useful and you typically want protection after an dodge.Fur_like_snow wrote: »I had the idea of instead of pen after dodge roll wood elf would get minor protection for the duration instead? Would that be useful in PvE? How about minor evasion?
Adjust as fitting.
Minor evasion is nothing, major evasion many will consider OP.. Minor protection, i don't know maybe will be useful in non-CP campaign and BGs. In PVE minor protection for 4 seconds is nothing too on top of CP mitigation.
Bosmer needs something solid and defining as race ability.. roll-dodge? Ok, but this must be something that makes real impact.
I'm for either snare removal or 500 magicka restore on roll-dodge, each 5 seconds. That will make difference and make bosmer agile. Maybe sounds too OP, but since stamina recovery is one of the least valuable of all "set bonuses" this looks like fair trade-off. If ZOS can't figure out and agree on complex things, then plain 75-100 WD and be done with it.
I'll just ask to remember that all other 5 stam races were buffed in 4.3.2.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1iXKjHY5u0