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Bosmer Racial change that is illogical and unnecessary

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max_only
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TLDR
In short, thank you for your hard work on these updates, just one problem: stealth detection is does not provide any benefit to PVE gameplay and very limited benefit in pvp. Please change that one part back to stealth radius reduction because it is useful in both pvp and pve as you have pointed out in your own notes.


Wood Elf
Increases experience gain in Bow Skill Line by 15%, decreases fall damage taken by 10% → No changes
Y’ffre’s Endurance: 21% Stamina Recovery → Increases your Stamina Recovery by 258.
Resist Affliction: 6% Max Stamina and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance → Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and your Poison Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Poisoned status effect.
Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.

A quick note on why we changed the Stealthy passive: Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other. Additionally, since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!), we wanted to take away some of the focus from the passive and build that into their other passives instead. We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives.

Developer Comment:
The thick forests of Valenwood have imprinted the importance of the ability to hunt in the Wood Elf race, and as such they have a natural adeptness for detecting potential threats. Quick to react and well versed in the poisons of nature, they can outlast and outwit their opponents. These traits are demonstrated with their natural speed boost when tactfully engaging combat, and their unparalleled Stamina Recovery.

Look at what I bolded. Enemies can’t be bothered to sneak about.

Then look at the change you made. Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m


So enemies can’t be bothered to sneak yet Bosmer can detect sneaking better. Your own explanation invalidates your own logic.


Rethink this please.

Edit: here is how bad this change is as tested on the PTS
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455172/a-visual-of-khajiits-new-stealth-capability-stacking-is-quite-extreme/

The Lore

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bosmer

Their agility makes them well-suited as scouts and thieves.

chameleon-like ability to hide in forested areas.

They often rely on their forest-coupling skills to make use of guerrilla tactics. The title of their most famous poem, the Meh Ayleidion, means "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding".[15]

The Bosmer are one of the few who worship the trickster Baan Dar, the trickster spirit of thieves and beggars

There are many other deities with significant Bosmer cults, such as Hircine.[59] They also worship the moon gods Jone and Jode.[59][61] Ancient stories of the supernatural, enigmatic Wilderking abound in Greenshade.[62] Like the Nords, the trickster spirit Herma-Mora appears in their legends (and they insist he is not to be confused with the Daedra Hermaeus Mora). And, of course, in a culture replete with trickster spirits, they do not forget the greatest trickster of all: Lorkhan.[59]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Varieties_of_Faith:_The_Wood_Elves

The Rite of Theft
The Rite of Theft is a cherished Bosmeri custom, though one which outsiders have trouble appreciating.[72] The Bosmer steal from each other, and upon return of the stolen item, they demand a boon commensurate to the item's worth.[73] In ancient times, the Bosmer Vanirion the Thief was renowned for demanding over two hundred payments after invoking the Rite.[71] In more modern times, the Bosmer of Greenshade are particularly infamous for their thievery.[49]

TES Arena: They are well suited towards any class, although their nimbleness serves them best in any art involving thievery.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Races#Wood_Elf

TES Daggerfall: "Wood Elves hail from the province of Valenwood. You are part of a small, fair-skinned people known to be extremely agile and quick. Wood Elves have a natural affinity for the bow and arrow, and all members of their race have some ability with that weapon. There are well-known Wood Elves in most every class, but the arts of thievery are their particular forte

TES Battlespire: Hailing from the forests of Valenwood, the Wood Elves are the finest archers in all of Tamriel. These cousins of the High Elves and Dark Elves are nimble and quick as the wind. Because of their curious natures and natural agility, Wood Elves often become thieves (No Khajiit in this game)

TES Morrowind: Bosmer had +10 sneak in that game. Khajiit only had +5 https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Bosmer

In Shadowkey, it’s Argonians who are noted for being Thieves, Khajiit for dodging and Bosmer for healing.

TES Oblivion: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Bosmer Once again, +10 sneak for Bosmer, only +5 sneak for Khajiit.

TES Skyrim: Khajiit have +10 sneak and Bosmer have +5.


In this chart, in the Skills Row, click on the last yellow icon for Bosmer. It’s +10 sneak. For Khajiit it’s +5.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Races
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races

We are asking for sneak radius. The sneak radius we always had.

Bosmer have 3 trickster gods as well. Baan Dar, Lorkhan and the Woodland Man aka Herma-Mora

If you want to make us unique from Khajiit then keep the sneaking part the same (reduce stealth radius) but give us bonus to lockpicking instead of pickpocketing. Or if it’s going to be the last passive we earn, let it be reduce stealth radius and further stamina recovery. Or, my personal favorite, let us cannabalize eligible corpses like werewolves but we incur an immediate death penalty if done in the wrong company. or really anything else as long as we keep our stealth radius reduction. Another idea is bonus to range damage of any kind (that will help a Bosmer casters too since you said you didn’t want to punish people for not choosing a magic race for a magic class. Something like that would be in keeping with the lore.


The Bottom Line

We aren’t sad because we can’t gank people. If anything, Khajiit with their higher crit and larger radius will be better gankers anyway.

Also, not one of us is asking for the extra damage, just the radius reduction. Also, if we cared about pvp we’d want to keep the passive like what is on offer because the offered passive stacks with Hasty Retreat. And stealth DETECTION is only useful in pvp, and is never used in pve. So sorry to burst that bubble, we aren’t gankers.

Also, it is fine that you can complete stealthy quests with a non-stealth race, the game would be unbalanced if it were impossible. The bottom line is that a Bosmer is not as noticeable as a Nord when crouched. It’s not realistic. Bosmer have always had a higher sneak bonus than other races, as I pointed out above, it’s not hard to understand. Altmer have always been better with arcane skills. These are just facts of this universe.

Finally, stealth detection is useless in pve all the time. Full stop. If they gave Orcs a passive to hug other players instead of a useful lore friendly passive I would be here about that too.

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_Gilliam
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_Lawrence_Schick
Edited by max_only on February 14, 2019 12:48AM
#OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks

CP 850 || PC/NA ||
""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
  • Heimpai
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    This just pretty much guaranteed mine will be turned into a bow build in pvp, atm mines more of a brawler so i needed the sustain now I’ll be losing 2-400 regen..could be more but I’m not going to go look (i tend to run 2600-2900 regen)

    If i sacrifice too much dmg for regen i won’t be able to do much with the current resist meta 🤦‍♂️ But atleast i can out run everyone
  • Tasear
    Tasear
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    o:) I will take more regain and speed also better with lockpicks sounds great. 😁
    Famous Healer, Loving Guild Master, Support Theory Crater
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    Sorc Trial Healer: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=90740
    Sorc Dungeon Healer: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=91310
    Sorc Dungeon Healer (Easy Version): https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=91335
    Sorc PvP Healer: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=78983
    ----
    DK Dungeon Healer: N/A
    ---
    Warden Dungeon Healer:https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=92350
    ========
    Sorc Dungeon Tank: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=78878
    DK Dungeon Tank: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=83069


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  • Tasear
    Tasear
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    Oh on a different note the passive is good but like altmer (channel damage reduction) they should of added something with it to balance in pve.
    Edited by Tasear on January 17, 2019 9:23AM
    Famous Healer, Loving Guild Master, Support Theory Crater
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    Builds
    Sorc Trial Healer: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=90740
    Sorc Dungeon Healer: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=91310
    Sorc Dungeon Healer (Easy Version): https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=91335
    Sorc PvP Healer: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=78983
    ----
    DK Dungeon Healer: N/A
    ---
    Warden Dungeon Healer:https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=92350
    ========
    Sorc Dungeon Tank: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=78878
    DK Dungeon Tank: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=83069


    Affiliations: BBC Gaming Guild, Akvari Exchange, Imperial Trade Union, Moonlight Travelers, Raiding Strategy Academy
    Trial History: Magic Society Core Healer, Rolling Cliff Hangers Core Healer, Kongpanions Core Healer, Moonlight Core Healer
  • Tonturri
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    I'm a little bamboozled as to why you address their explanation as if it can be cherrypicked down to one sentence and one sentence only. That's...not how it works. That's not how anything works >.> Context is important. If you bothered to read further, you'll find out that the premise of your post is entirely wrong.

    I could quote one word from your OP and go off on how godawfully written it is "Just one word in the OP?! Geez l2write." Or something. It'd have zero...anything to it, but I could do that.

    ZOS did an excellent job of writing a giant block of text to explain their thinking behind the changes. This time it's on the players to respond in a coherent manner.

    Please rethink your post.
    Tasear wrote: »
    Oh on a different note the passive is good but like altmer (channel damage reduction) they should of added something with it to balance in pve.

    Seconded. I have never found sneak detection to be of any use in any area of the game - not even once.

    Other than that, I love the new Bosmer changes.
    Edited by Tonturri on January 17, 2019 9:29AM
  • Narvuntien
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    Bosmer needs something, anything to increase their damage with these new passives.

    I mean the speed bonus is fine for PVP, the resources are approximately the same as now and there is very very little reason to pick them over anything else atm.

    Could we get some kind of weapon damage bonus when attacking from range (or stealth but as noted thats only useful in PVP)
  • Tasear
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    Tonturri wrote: »
    I'm a little bamboozled as to why you address their explanation as if it can be cherrypicked down to one sentence and one sentence only. That's...not how it works. That's not how anything works >.> Context is important. If you bothered to read further, you'll find out that the premise of your post is entirely wrong.

    I could quote one word from your OP and go off on how godawfully written it is "Just one word in the OP?! Geez l2write." Or something. It'd have zero...anything to it, but I could do that.

    ZOS did an excellent job of writing a giant block of text to explain their thinking behind the changes. This time it's on the players to respond in a coherent manner.

    Please rethink your post.
    Tasear wrote: »
    Oh on a different note the passive is good but like altmer (channel damage reduction) they should of added something with it to balance in pve.

    Seconded. I have never found sneak detection to be of any use in any area of the game - not even once.

    Other than that, I love the new Bosmer changes.

    Yeah I was thinking of pvp and something else that not supposed to talk about.

    But rethinking it yeah bosmer could still use some love.
    Famous Healer, Loving Guild Master, Support Theory Crater
    Former Class Representative, & Former Community Ambassador
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    ESO Community Discord: https://discord.gg/9UafDmq
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    Sorc Trial Healer: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=90740
    Sorc Dungeon Healer: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=91310
    Sorc Dungeon Healer (Easy Version): https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=91335
    Sorc PvP Healer: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=78983
    ----
    DK Dungeon Healer: N/A
    ---
    Warden Dungeon Healer:https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=92350
    ========
    Sorc Dungeon Tank: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=78878
    DK Dungeon Tank: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=83069


    Affiliations: BBC Gaming Guild, Akvari Exchange, Imperial Trade Union, Moonlight Travelers, Raiding Strategy Academy
    Trial History: Magic Society Core Healer, Rolling Cliff Hangers Core Healer, Kongpanions Core Healer, Moonlight Core Healer
  • Ragnaroek93
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    The speed passive looks very powerful in PvP. Bosmer in PvE doesn't look great tho, I agree on that but not every race can be BiS everywhere. One way to balance races is to make specific races shine in specific roles (that's the way how ZOS balances the game). The other way would be total balance and that would be removing all racial passives from the game.
  • Temeraire507
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    I understand your problem with the reduced Detection Radius being removed. I neither like this part.

    Still, all in all I believe that ZOS did quite well with redesigning all the racial passives.

    One thing many seem to oversee is the math behind the new sustain passive for Bosmer. You got 21%+. Now you get a base value increase of 258. If your character is naked and unskilled you would need approximately 1229 recovery to get a bonus of 258 with 21% buff. HOWEVER the new 258 are a base value increase, meaning they benefit from percentage buffs.

    That results in Woodelves being on a comparable level to redguards regarding sustain.

    Redguards get 950 every 5 seconds if they deal damage with a direct damage hit, which break down into 380 recovery that does not get buffed by any bonus you might have. On top of that weapon abilities (Endless Hail, Rending Slashes, Poison Injection, in some situations Steel Tornado and the Hidden Blade morphs) get 8% cost reduction.

    Woodelves however get 258 base recovery, that benefit from percentage buffs. The setup of most endgame players includes 7 pieces of medium armor, 75 points into mooncalf (if not 100) and the use of stamina returning potions. That comes down to 28 + 14 + 20 = 62 percent buff to stamina recovery. That means that you end up with about 418 recovery, not taking any passives from other skill lines (15% for NB's or 12% for wardens for example) into account.

    As you can see, your sustain on a Bosmer is now (or more precisely when the update hits live, if it comes live like that) about the same as on a Redguard and since both now have a base stamina bonus of 2000 you also have about the same damage.
    Edited by Temeraire507 on January 17, 2019 7:01PM
  • Rikumaru
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    20% move speed is super cool, love the changes personally.
    Overload rework. Power Overload now does physical damage and grants you the power of a tornado: You throw a brick at the target with a light attack, and you hammer your head into that brick with every heavy attack. We have decreased its Ultimate cost, but increased the chance that you get stuck in the animation.
  • validifyedneb18_ESO
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    The 10% stealth thing I bet made balancing some oneshot stealth builds for PVP real annoying.]

    As for the 20%, I can fully see why. It's such a huge multiplicative increase to an incredibly important stat. Most racial dont go past 10% recovery.

    Also I wouldn't be surprised if we saw more of these flat numbers, to ease out builds and level the playing field, especially with the upcoming overhaul to racials' with its aim to allow any race to be close to top or any role/stat.
  • LaveniaRose
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    All of my stam characters are Bosmers because I like their look. And I rarely (like maybe once per week) use stealth to steal. I was really happy with the racial changes. If the stealth boost to bosmers does return, I just hope its not at the cost of removing a passive helpful to other playstyles.
  • max_only
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    Tonturri wrote: »
    I'm a little bamboozled as to why you address their explanation as if it can be cherrypicked down to one sentence and one sentence only. That's...not how it works. That's not how anything works >.> Context is important. If you bothered to read further, you'll find out that the premise of your post is entirely wrong.

    I could quote one word from your OP and go off on how godawfully written it is "Just one word in the OP?! Geez l2write." Or something. It'd have zero...anything to it, but I could do that.

    ZOS did an excellent job of writing a giant block of text to explain their thinking behind the changes. This time it's on the players to respond in a coherent manner.

    Please rethink your post.
    Tasear wrote: »
    Oh on a different note the passive is good but like altmer (channel damage reduction) they should of added something with it to balance in pve.

    Seconded. I have never found sneak detection to be of any use in any area of the game - not even once.

    Other than that, I love the new Bosmer changes.

    So you have a problem with what you feel is cherry picking but you agree with the bottom line that stealth detection is useless. Okay bro whatever gets us there lol
    #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks

    CP 850 || PC/NA ||
    ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
  • ChunkyCat
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    I’m going to use my free race change token to switch my PvP stam sorc from Redguard to Bosmer, just for that speed buff.
  • Cundu_Ertur
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    ChunkyCat wrote: »
    I’m going to use my free race change token to switch my PvP stam sorc from Redguard to Bosmer, just for that speed buff.

    I doubt very seriously that it will survive PTS.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • pocketdefender
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    I'm okay with losing the stealth damage. That seems like it would have made PvP hard to balance. And I'm fine with the flat stamina boosts. I also think the speed boost is interesting, and I am SO GLAD they didn't touch our reduced fall damage!

    But the stealth detection passive is ridiculous. If you don't play PvP, it is literally useless. Which is a problem, because the whole point of these changes was to expand the versatility of each race. This, combined with the 15% bow line xp gain that is completely useless after you max out bow, just further makes Bosmer good at only one thing: PvP stamblade bow builds. Of course, they're still a decent stamina race for everything else, but that's not any different from how it was before.

    Why not give us resource return or extra damage or extra XP with bows or, even better, with any ranged attacks? That would be good. Or why not go with the lore and give us something involving alchemy or animals? That's got a long precedent in previous games, and would give magicka Bosmer something to work with.

    And a bonus to stealth has way more of a basis in lore than stealth detection, anyway. Bosmer have an ability called forest-coupling that allows them to walk into the shade of a single tree and vanish. And one of their most sacred writings is a poem that literally translates to "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding".
    Edited by pocketdefender on January 17, 2019 9:23PM
  • Cireous
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    For my Bosmer, I'd love a bonus to damage over time similar to how the Redguard has a bonus to direct damage. I would also be a lot happier if they kept something stealthy for us, too. Why not let us have the 10% extra damage while in stealth back? It would be pretty fun to open with Poison Injection or Acid Spray from stealth, doing a little extra damage from both the stealth and the damage over time buff. I'm just a casual, though, and this is just a casual thought on what would be fun for me.
  • Twohothardware
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    I don’t understand this change, it seems to be 100% pvp orientated.

    Why take away the stealth bonus they had?

    This change just seems clumsy. Like they felt that they HAD to make a change rather that there NEEDED to be a change.

    Because it served absolutely no purpose on the soon to be 5 out of 6 classes in the game for the overwhelming majority of players. And the loss is 3 METERS. If it's that important to have an extra 3 meters stealth radius in order to be able for stealing to function in the game they can easily add that to the Legerdemain skill line so that all Races can do it instead of only Wood Elf and Khajiit.

  • Twohothardware
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    I don’t understand this change, it seems to be 100% pvp orientated.

    Why take away the stealth bonus they had?

    This change just seems clumsy. Like they felt that they HAD to make a change rather that there NEEDED to be a change.

    Because it served absolutely no purpose on the soon to be 5 out of 6 classes in the game for the overwhelming majority of players. And the loss is 3 METERS. If it's that important to have an extra 3 meters stealth radius in order to be able for stealing to function in the game they can easily add that to the Legerdemain skill line so that all Races can do it instead of only Wood Elf and Khajiit.

    Really? They are taking away stealth from the other classes? So only nightblades can stealth now? That’s pretty major. I play 3 different classes as bosmer, and losing the ability to stealth on my warden and dragon knight would be huge. Can you give me a link that shows that they intend to remove stealth from those classes?

    They're not removing stealth from any class or race, they're removing the 3 meter bonus to stealth from Wood Elf and replacing it with passives that benefit the race more on all classes.
  • max_only
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    I don’t understand this change, it seems to be 100% pvp orientated.

    Why take away the stealth bonus they had?

    This change just seems clumsy. Like they felt that they HAD to make a change rather that there NEEDED to be a change.

    Because it served absolutely no purpose on the soon to be 5 out of 6 classes in the game for the overwhelming majority of players. And the loss is 3 METERS. If it's that important to have an extra 3 meters stealth radius in order to be able for stealing to function in the game they can easily add that to the Legerdemain skill line so that all Races can do it instead of only Wood Elf and Khajiit.

    Don’t quibble over the 3 meters. Pay attention to the completely useless passive of stealth detection. Stealth DETECTION.

    Where do you use this in PvE? Where in pve did you detect stealthed enemies? NO WHERE. It even says in the notes they wrote themselves that enemies in Tamriel don’t go around sneaking.

    Maybe ONE of the levels on ONE of the new dungeons in Elsweyr will require stealth detection, and that’s a big maybe.
    #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks

    CP 850 || PC/NA ||
    ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
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