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Bosmer Racial change that is illogical and unnecessary

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  • TheMikrobe
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    My stealth character is a khajiit. My bosmer is no-stealth bow/bow with dodge roll as the main defence. The changes as they stand are great for me, and I still wish bosmers had some stealth boost.
  • BlueRaven
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    Just out of curiosity, is Elsweyr refundable? I purchased it through the eso website.
  • Cundu_Ertur
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    anadandy wrote: »
    Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.
    I feel more like they pee'd in our Wheaties.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
    Stealth is to Thieves as Magicka is to Mages
  • BlueRaven
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    I don't follow zos on twitter or reddit or anything. Has there been any mention of another pass at the bosmer racials beyond this site?
  • Cundu_Ertur
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    Dalsinthus wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    I don't follow zos on twitter or reddit or anything. Has there been any mention of another pass at the bosmer racials beyond this site?

    I've been following this really closely - I'm super salty about the removal of the stealth passive. I have not seen ZOS comment outside of the class rep notes and patch notes.

    I'm so salty salt looks at me and says, 'dude, too much.'
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
    Stealth is to Thieves as Magicka is to Mages
  • MartiniDaniels
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    Give Little Leaf some place on the tree! We are used to be niche RP/PVP race for years, now you strip us even from this niche role!
  • anadandy
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    And this promise of someday in the future we will have a way of regaining the stealth through other means has little weight with me. When is this going to happen? In a year or two? Three? Maybe with the spell crafting patch?

    Truth.
  • BlueRaven
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    Thanks! Maybe I should post this "Update & Meeting Notes - Jan 30, 2019 " thread?

    I dunno. It feels like a double post which I hate doing. But to be honest, I have no idea if the developers read anything we write in this thread.

    This whole thing, I... Arrrgh! It just has me so flustered.

  • ProbablePaul
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    I was pretty supportive of the changes they were making until recently. The changes to the bosmer dodge roll bonus makes sense, but the addition of penetration doesn't - why would I roll away just to go right back at the enemy?

    I was trying to think of instances where I'm going to be using dodge roll the most, and it will likely be to roll through, or out of AoE's. However, this recent change encourages you to run back in, or to dodge roll before you attack, no? Won't most people just learn to simply block anytime they see an attacking wood elf dodge roll near them? That level of predictability seems counter-intuitive to the 'hunter' archetype they were going for.

    I think I'd like to have that stealth passive back, instead. Or better yet, a 3m increase to detecting enemies, and a 3m decrease to being detected by enemies. >=D
    Bosmer Melee Magicka Nightblade
  • Tasear
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    Cundu_Ertur wrote: »
    Who in the high holy heck is the Bosmer class rep, anyways, and how do we recall them to get someone else to represent us?

    She retired just in time 😝. To complain with you.
  • TankinatorFR
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    Well well well...
    I live the forum for a week, and when I come back, we are still in the same mess...
    What a surprise.

    Oh no, excuse me, there is a change ; and if you consider that changing something without improving is is great, then, this change is great...

    I really don't get it.
    Diversity for the sake of diversity is meaningless. Diversity for the sake of diversity that break the mean of things, that is even worse...
    Bosmers are stealthy, no matters if the Khajits are too.
  • BlueRaven
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    TankinatorFR wrote: »
    Well well well...
    I live the forum for a week, and when I come back, we are still in the same mess...
    What a surprise.

    Oh no, excuse me, there is a change ; and if you consider that changing something without improving is is great, then, this change is great...

    I really don't get it.
    Diversity for the sake of diversity is meaningless. Diversity for the sake of diversity that break the mean of things, that is even worse...
    Bosmers are stealthy, no matters if the Khajits are too.

    Yeah, tell me about it. I just learned about the race changes just before I left on a cruise. And then I had to use all of my onboard minutes patrolling the forums hoping what I read about the bosmers losing stealth was a mistake.

  • Tasear
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    TankinatorFR wrote: »
    Well well well...
    I live the forum for a week, and when I come back, we are still in the same mess...
    What a surprise.

    Oh no, excuse me, there is a change ; and if you consider that changing something without improving is is great, then, this change is great...

    I really don't get it.
    Diversity for the sake of diversity is meaningless. Diversity for the sake of diversity that break the mean of things, that is even worse...
    Bosmers are stealthy, no matters if the Khajits are too.

    Yeah, tell me about it. I just learned about the race changes just before I left on a cruise. And then I had to use all of my onboard minutes patrolling the forums hoping what I read about the bosmers losing stealth was a mistake.

    What makes you enjoy bosmer stealth? Lets talk about it. Would it resolve things say if you gained penetration with stealth. It would bring the issue of pvp passive thing again... but hey they said someday... oneday they will make stealth meaningful in pve too.

    P.S Yes I think dodge roll penetration doesn't make sense. I would take penetration while moving or staying still as more nimblenesss or focus or even maybe just adding it as a stealth mechanic is right way?
    Edited by Tasear on February 7, 2019 7:10AM
  • Cundu_Ertur
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    How I would fix this:

    1. In THIS PATCH (not some future patch to be determined in some future era but right now) I would put a .5m hiding bonus for each level of the Improved Hiding passive in the legerdemain skill line.
    2. Add 1m hiding bonus to the Bosmer starting passive, Acrobat. It would never improve. This would reflect the innate bonus to hiding that their nimbleness and small size would allow.
    3. Reduce the maximum hiding bonus for Khajiit to 2m, otherwise they are back at the comedic 5m jumping jacks on guards' toes level of invisibility if they max out the Improved Hiding skill. I would scale it .5/1/2m for each level of the passive.
    4. Hunter's Eye: I would leave mostly unchanged; I would increase the time of the movement bonus to match Hasty Retreat (4s instead of 3s), and the penetration bonus should be just a flat bonus for using a bow (well, it would scale with each point in the passive, but y'know what I mean) without the roll-dodge condition. The value would probably need to be balanced down a bit, though. Here I am putting faith in the devs, that they will deliver on some way of making the counter-stealth passive actually mean something in PVE. Making the penetration bonus conditional on using a bow is to reflect the Bosmer affinity for archery from lore. If you don't want to be a stealthy f'n archer, why are you a Bosmer? You are deliberately playing against type, and that means you are going to miss out on some bonuses.

    What this does, it makes Bosmer the best at hiding, but only at level 1. A Bosmer who never takes a point in the legerdemain skill line will not be better at hiding than a Breton who takes them all; and that's fine. Actually, it SHOULD be that way. As people level up, eventually everyone can have some bonus to hiding, Bosmer who choose to will have a slight bonus, and the Khajiit who choose to would have a bonus beyond that. The net impact, from a hiding perspective, is every race would have 2m of extra hiding bonus that they don't have now, so they win. Bosmer can end up with 3m of hiding bonus so they remain the same (which at this point is a huge win). Khajiit can end up with 4m of hiding bonus, which is still 1m more than they have now, so THEY win. Everyone wins. No-one loses anything.


    edit to clarify which Bosmer passive would get the bonus to hiding.
    Edited by Cundu_Ertur on February 7, 2019 3:50PM
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
    Stealth is to Thieves as Magicka is to Mages
  • BlueRaven
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    Tasear wrote: »
    What makes you enjoy bosmer stealth? Lets talk about it. Would it resolve things say if you gained penetration with stealth. It would bring the issue of pvp passive thing again... but hey they said someday... oneday they will make stealth meaningful in pve too.

    First, I think stealth is meaningful now. Like @Cundu_Ertur mentioned, for a long time I was entering public dungeons and sneaking around just to explore.The ability to stealth opens up the game to exploration in ways I can't do on my unstealthy characters. And stealth helped me complete the mages guild dailies that involved the public dungeons.

    I also enjoy the thrill of slipping past enemies and hiding until the "coast is clear" to proceed. Or simply waiting until a stray moves away so I can ambush them without alerting the rest of the pack.

    Craglorn (before the redesign) opened up to me because of stealth. And I got my "Savior of Nirn" title largely because in Cyrodiil I was in stealth and stayed away from PvP.

    I think that's what I will miss the most. The feeling I can go into someplace that would be too dangerous for me and be able to see areas of the game I would not be able to normally. The loss of stealth signals to me that any future exploration will be limited or just not possible. And that really takes away a huge enjoyment of the game for me.

    Also,

    Tasear wrote: »
    WP.S Yes I think dodge roll penetration doesn't make sense. I would take penetration while moving or staying still as more nimblenesss or focus or even maybe just adding it as a stealth mechanic is right way?

    Honestly I don't care what the other part of the passive is like. I really am focused on the stealth.

    I think the roll mechanic in game is clumsily implemented, and I rarely utilize it. Most of the time if I do pull off a roll its by accident, and I am usually too surprised I did it to do much else. The Pee Wee Herman joke "I meant to do that!" usually pops into my head when it happens. Armor Pen, speed, whatever not really that important to me.

    That being said I hope that the roll/damage is not a factor in determining the overall dps of bosmers. I really don't want to work it into a "rotation". I think a defensive roll that creates an immunity to snares or provides a short armor buff or something is fine. I still won't use it, but at least it won't feel as if my dps is low because I am not using it.

    Or if they want to eliminate this "roll" and replace it with something else entirely I am more than happy to see it go as a passive.

    •••
    Cundu_Ertur wrote: »
    If they want to lay the groundwork for adding counter-stealth in PVE, that's great, but you can't take away something that is useful NOW for something that maybe, possibly, might be useful later. And I have given examples where counter-stealth could be useful in an overland or dungeon situations: there's crouching archers around bandit camps, put 'em in stealth. You could have stealthed sentries in dungeons guarding the maguffin (hey dictionary, that's a word) of doom.

    And if you want to take most of the stealth away from the Khajiit and Bosmer and spread it around to everyone, that's fine so long as these two races BOTH still get a slight bonus because that's the established lore. But, it's got to be all at once. Put 1m of hiding bonus in the TG passives and 1m in the DB passives, and let 'em stack with each other and the racials; or, even better, put a 2m hiding bonus in the legerdemain skill line somewhere. Give Khajiit a 2m hiding bonus in their passive and a 1m hiding bonus to the Bosmer passive along with the detection bonus (or the other way around, there's backstory enough for it to go either way). [edit to add:] I just have always found it odd that there was no stealth boost for thieves and assassins, when they should really have something on the guild or class level for this skill. Putting a huge boost to stealth in two racial passives was a bit of a shortcut that has lasted too long. It should be a smaller boost from the racial passives, with half or more coming from a skill that is available to every race. [/edit]

    I'm not a fan of the other (to me more gimmicky) things like movement speed in stealth, or bonus damage from stealth (though it was nice). It's about How Not to be Seen. There's a nice PSA from the BBC on that on the youtubes.

    I agree with most of this except the ledgerman part. Just because a character sneaks does not mean they are thieves (I know bosmers "rite of theft", but lets just move on.) Players can be sneaky because they are scouts, hunters, or just explorers. A more open approach I think would be more appealing. I think it's own skill line that increases as the player attacks creatures from stealth or do other stealth related (yet non criminal) actions in game. Kind of like the sneak skill in skyrim, it grew not because the character was a thief or assassin, but because your character sneaked around.
  • anadandy
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Just because a character sneaks does not mean they are thieves (I know bosmers "rite of theft", but lets just move on.) Players can be sneaky because they are scouts, hunters, or just explorers. A more open approach I think would be more appealing. I think it's own skill line that increases as the player attacks creatures from stealth or do other stealth related (yet non criminal) actions in game. Kind of like the sneak skill in skyrim, it grew not because the character was a thief or assassin, but because your character sneaked around.

    This is brilliant - the same can be said for just because a character sneaks doesn't make them a ganker. Some kind of stealth skill line - or dare I say - a ranger skill line... :)

  • BlueRaven
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    anadandy wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Just because a character sneaks does not mean they are thieves (I know bosmers "rite of theft", but lets just move on.) Players can be sneaky because they are scouts, hunters, or just explorers. A more open approach I think would be more appealing. I think it's own skill line that increases as the player attacks creatures from stealth or do other stealth related (yet non criminal) actions in game. Kind of like the sneak skill in skyrim, it grew not because the character was a thief or assassin, but because your character sneaked around.

    This is brilliant - the same can be said for just because a character sneaks doesn't make them a ganker. Some kind of stealth skill line - or dare I say - a ranger skill line... :)

    Thanks! And I think it would be easy to implement (I could be wrong, I am not a game developer). And the skill line could be enhanced with other things like speed while stealthed, shorten the time it takes to go into stealth, and other things like pick locks while stealthed.
  • Cundu_Ertur
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    The problem I see with the new skill line approach is that we'd be losing now to get, maybe, later. Legerdemain is not limited to thieves, it's available to everyone from the start [edit to add: it is part of the base game, no DLC required, too]. Thieves and assassins already have their own skill lines that are separate from it. Also, the skill in legerdemain is called 'improved hiding' but it doesn't actually, y'know, improve hiding. It improves moving around in hiding, but not the act of hiding itself.
    Edited by Cundu_Ertur on February 7, 2019 6:35PM
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
    Stealth is to Thieves as Magicka is to Mages
  • BlueRaven
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    Cundu_Ertur wrote: »
    The problem I see with the new skill line approach is that we'd be losing now to get, maybe, later. Legerdemain is not limited to thieves, it's available to everyone from the start [edit to add: it is part of the base game, no DLC required, too]. Thieves and assassins already have their own skill lines that are separate from it. Also, the skill in legerdemain is called 'improved hiding' but it doesn't actually, y'know, improve hiding. It improves moving around in hiding, but not the act of hiding itself.

    Yeah exactly. I want to see the "replacement for stealth" first before I am ok with the "we'll fix it later" approach they are doing now. The only problem I see with putting it in ledgerman is that it is such a pain to level if you are not a thief. I was working on leveling it on an alt and all I am doing is running around looking for open world treasure chests on a loop. Not fun.
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