TankinatorFR wrote: »Well well well...
I live the forum for a week, and when I come back, we are still in the same mess...
What a surprise.
Oh no, excuse me, there is a change ; and if you consider that changing something without improving is is great, then, this change is great...
I really don't get it.
Diversity for the sake of diversity is meaningless. Diversity for the sake of diversity that break the mean of things, that is even worse...
Bosmers are stealthy, no matters if the Khajits are too.
Yeah, tell me about it. I just learned about the race changes just before I left on a cruise. And then I had to use all of my onboard minutes patrolling the forums hoping what I read about the bosmers losing stealth was a mistake.
What makes you enjoy bosmer stealth? Lets talk about it. Would it resolve things say if you gained penetration with stealth. It would bring the issue of pvp passive thing again... but hey they said someday... oneday they will make stealth meaningful in pve too.
P.S Yes I think dodge roll penetration doesn't make sense. I would take penetration while moving or staying still as more nimblenesss or focus or even maybe just adding it as a stealth mechanic is right way?
Cundu_Ertur wrote: »The problem I see with the new skill line approach is that we'd be losing now to get, maybe, later. Legerdemain is not limited to thieves, it's available to everyone from the start [edit to add: it is part of the base game, no DLC required, too]. Thieves and assassins already have their own skill lines that are separate from it. Also, the skill in legerdemain is called 'improved hiding' but it doesn't actually, y'know, improve hiding. It improves moving around in hiding, but not the act of hiding itself.
Yeah exactly. I want to see the "replacement for stealth" first before I am ok with the "we'll fix it later" approach they are doing now. The only problem I see with putting it in ledgerman is that it is such a pain to level if you are not a thief. I was working on leveling it on an alt and all I am doing is running around looking for open world treasure chests on a loop. Not fun.
Cundu_Ertur wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »The problem I see with the new skill line approach is that we'd be losing now to get, maybe, later. Legerdemain is not limited to thieves, it's available to everyone from the start [edit to add: it is part of the base game, no DLC required, too]. Thieves and assassins already have their own skill lines that are separate from it. Also, the skill in legerdemain is called 'improved hiding' but it doesn't actually, y'know, improve hiding. It improves moving around in hiding, but not the act of hiding itself.
Yeah exactly. I want to see the "replacement for stealth" first before I am ok with the "we'll fix it later" approach they are doing now. The only problem I see with putting it in ledgerman is that it is such a pain to level if you are not a thief. I was working on leveling it on an alt and all I am doing is running around looking for open world treasure chests on a loop. Not fun.
The good thing would be you don't have to max that line to get the full bonus, it's the first passive in the chain, so it's available at 1/6/11/16. But if we want something that is logical and easily implemented, easy enough to include in the current patch cycle, I think this would be the best option. It would be nice to gain exp in it in more ways than just opening locked chests.
What makes you enjoy bosmer stealth? Lets talk about it.
TankinatorFR wrote: »Well well well...
I live the forum for a week, and when I come back, we are still in the same mess...
What a surprise.
Oh no, excuse me, there is a change ; and if you consider that changing something without improving is is great, then, this change is great...
I really don't get it.
Diversity for the sake of diversity is meaningless. Diversity for the sake of diversity that break the mean of things, that is even worse...
Bosmers are stealthy, no matters if the Khajits are too.
Yeah, tell me about it. I just learned about the race changes just before I left on a cruise. And then I had to use all of my onboard minutes patrolling the forums hoping what I read about the bosmers losing stealth was a mistake.
What makes you enjoy bosmer stealth? Lets talk about it. Would it resolve things say if you gained penetration with stealth. It would bring the issue of pvp passive thing again... but hey they said someday... oneday they will make stealth meaningful in pve too.
P.S Yes I think dodge roll penetration doesn't make sense. I would take penetration while moving or staying still as more nimblenesss or focus or even maybe just adding it as a stealth mechanic is right way?
We have a lot of exposition already, there are 5 other games worth of exposition.The problem with pulling this kind of thing the wrong way in a speculative-fiction story is that science fiction, fantasy, and horror don’t necessarily share mainstream fiction’s baseline expectations for how reality works, and it’s far too easy to leave audiences feeling cheated, annoyed, or just plain confused when the rules change abruptly, or were ill-defined in the first place.
So: Establish rules and then don’t break them. Seems obvious enough, right? Not really, given how few science-fiction/fantasy/horror films manage to do it right. As mentioned earlier, it’s harder for films to establish strange new worlds without a lot of clumsy exposition.
After a certain point, they become like any other rules for how the world works: They establish a basic framework for understanding and shaping a meaningful story.
Essentially, in the real world, people have to deal with the basic truths about how the world functions, whether they’re dealing with the law of gravity or common human motivations. The act of contending with limitations and figuring out how to work around and within them is inherently dramatic, and imminently relatable—everyone in the world has at some point been up against some force that prevented them from getting exactly what they wanted at all times. The hard part for storytellers in speculative fiction is figuring out what the rules should be, then getting them across to the audience clearly and convincingly. And then not breaking those rules for the sake of a moment, even if it would really, really startle people if they did. Speculative fiction makes up its own rules, and relies on its audience’s goodwill and suspension of disbelief to make an inherently unreal world feel real enough to be convincing. Breaking internal rules—or worse, lazily never bothering to set them up in the first place—is the easiest possible way to cut the cords and send that disbelief crashing to the ground.
sneaking past all the dangers in the woods. Come upon a cultist doing a ritual? Sneak past. Come upon a brigand ambush? Sneak past. Come upon a mighty beast? Sneak past. They feeling of “yesssss” when you can squeeze by in tight spaces unnoticed. Sometimes I’m able to take what I need from right under their noses.
sneaking past all the dangers in the woods. Come upon a cultist doing a ritual? Sneak past. Come upon a brigand ambush? Sneak past. Come upon a mighty beast? Sneak past. They feeling of “yesssss” when you can squeeze by in tight spaces unnoticed. Sometimes I’m able to take what I need from right under their noses.
Same boat, bro, same boat
Would you mind if I used that quote as my signature ?
Cundu_Ertur wrote: »No, they do not. The Khajiit increase their ability to go into and remain in stealth. The Bosmer completely lose any and all bonus to this. Instead, the Bosmer get an improvement to their ability to see through stealth, which is completely different and not stealth at all by any definition, and which did not belong in any way to the previous iteration of the passive which was shared by the two races. Let's review the old passive: Bosmer and Khajiit both had a 3m reduction to the distance at which they would be detected in hiding, and both had a 10% bonus to damage done from stealth. The Khajiit keep part of that previous passive (and even improve with regard to that part) in that their new reduction is 5m instead of 3m but they lose the additional damage; the Bosmer keep exactly NONE of it, losing both the bonus to damage and in being able to hide. Note: detecting hidden things was not any part of the previous, shared passive.ProbablePaul wrote: »......
Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.
A quick note on why we changed the Stealthy passive: Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other. Additionally, since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!), we wanted to take away some of the focus from the passive and build that into their other passives instead. We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives.
Developer Comment:
The thick forests of Valenwood have imprinted the importance of the ability to hunt in the Wood Elf race, and as such they have a natural adeptness for detecting potential threats. Quick to react and well versed in the poisons of nature, they can outlast and outwit their opponents. These traits are demonstrated with their natural speed boost when tactfully engaging combat, and their unparalleled Stamina Recovery.
Look at your logic that I bolded. Enemies can’t be bothered to sneak about.
Then look at the change you made. Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m
So enemies can’t be bothered to sneak yet Bosmer can detect sneaking better. Your own explanation invalidates your own logic.
Also, they're reasoning seems pretty spot on, as both races have their own distinct version of a stealth detection passive.You're missing the point. The devs explicitly acknowledge that being able to see hidden things is completely unimportant in PVE, and then go right on ahead and give Bosmer this useless ability.ProbablePaul wrote: »Your comment about enemies sneaking about is missing the point, as they were elaborating on the sneaking mechanic being a non-universal one.
ProbablePaul wrote: »They are actually keeping a part of the game mechanic; a game mechanic is more general than a passive alone, meaning that anything pertaining to stealth would fall under that umbrella, whether that be decreased or increased detection radius. There are no errors in logic here, just your interpretation of it.
ProbablePaul wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »No, they do not. The Khajiit increase their ability to go into and remain in stealth. The Bosmer completely lose any and all bonus to this. Instead, the Bosmer get an improvement to their ability to see through stealth, which is completely different and not stealth at all by any definition, and which did not belong in any way to the previous iteration of the passive which was shared by the two races. Let's review the old passive: Bosmer and Khajiit both had a 3m reduction to the distance at which they would be detected in hiding, and both had a 10% bonus to damage done from stealth. The Khajiit keep part of that previous passive (and even improve with regard to that part) in that their new reduction is 5m instead of 3m but they lose the additional damage; the Bosmer keep exactly NONE of it, losing both the bonus to damage and in being able to hide. Note: detecting hidden things was not any part of the previous, shared passive.ProbablePaul wrote: »......
Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.
A quick note on why we changed the Stealthy passive: Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other. Additionally, since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!), we wanted to take away some of the focus from the passive and build that into their other passives instead. We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives.
Developer Comment:
The thick forests of Valenwood have imprinted the importance of the ability to hunt in the Wood Elf race, and as such they have a natural adeptness for detecting potential threats. Quick to react and well versed in the poisons of nature, they can outlast and outwit their opponents. These traits are demonstrated with their natural speed boost when tactfully engaging combat, and their unparalleled Stamina Recovery.
Look at your logic that I bolded. Enemies can’t be bothered to sneak about.
Then look at the change you made. Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m
So enemies can’t be bothered to sneak yet Bosmer can detect sneaking better. Your own explanation invalidates your own logic.
Also, they're reasoning seems pretty spot on, as both races have their own distinct version of a stealth detection passive.You're missing the point. The devs explicitly acknowledge that being able to see hidden things is completely unimportant in PVE, and then go right on ahead and give Bosmer this useless ability.ProbablePaul wrote: »Your comment about enemies sneaking about is missing the point, as they were elaborating on the sneaking mechanic being a non-universal one.
If you're going to make an argument against what someone said, you shouldn't remove the parts of their argument, especially if the parts you're removing agree with the points you're making.Also, they're reasoning seems pretty spot on, as both races have their own distinct version of a stealth detection passive. Your comment about enemies sneaking about is missing the point, as they were elaborating on the sneaking mechanic being a non-universal one. Maybe you mean for them to clarify what they meant by, "We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives."? Because the current, truest version of the wood elf passive is reduced detection, not increased detection. Although, their proposed passive is still a version of the passive, none-the-less; they never said they'd be identical.
Aaaaand, no, you're missing the point of my entire post, and the same point OP missed as well - what you interpret and what was said are two different things.
Regarding what the devs said, "We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives." They are actually keeping a part of the game mechanic; a game mechanic is more general than a passive alone, meaning that anything pertaining to stealth would fall under that umbrella, whether that be decreased or increased detection radius. There are no errors in logic here, just your interpretation of it.
Though, (and again) I did admit that the dev's confusingly said they would be 'keeping parts of each racial passive' implying that those parts that would be kept would be the ones we've seen before. But once they mentioned 'supporting that game mechanic' they could potentially do anything with stealth, and still technically be correct by calling it a version. Where in this case, instead of keeping the passives as we knew them, for bosmer they kept the three meter radius, except gave them increased instead of decreased radius; for khajiit, the khajiit kept the decreased radius, but they changed the size of the radius.
As for my post, the point was to encourage the OP to, rather than call the devs out on their logic, simply ask for the passive to return to the bosmer, instead. Why? OP didn't know what he was talking about, and I was trying to substantiate that.
ProbablePaul wrote: »Cundu_Ertur wrote: »No, they do not. The Khajiit increase their ability to go into and remain in stealth. The Bosmer completely lose any and all bonus to this. Instead, the Bosmer get an improvement to their ability to see through stealth, which is completely different and not stealth at all by any definition, and which did not belong in any way to the previous iteration of the passive which was shared by the two races. Let's review the old passive: Bosmer and Khajiit both had a 3m reduction to the distance at which they would be detected in hiding, and both had a 10% bonus to damage done from stealth. The Khajiit keep part of that previous passive (and even improve with regard to that part) in that their new reduction is 5m instead of 3m but they lose the additional damage; the Bosmer keep exactly NONE of it, losing both the bonus to damage and in being able to hide. Note: detecting hidden things was not any part of the previous, shared passive.ProbablePaul wrote: »......
Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.
A quick note on why we changed the Stealthy passive: Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other. Additionally, since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!), we wanted to take away some of the focus from the passive and build that into their other passives instead. We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives.
Developer Comment:
The thick forests of Valenwood have imprinted the importance of the ability to hunt in the Wood Elf race, and as such they have a natural adeptness for detecting potential threats. Quick to react and well versed in the poisons of nature, they can outlast and outwit their opponents. These traits are demonstrated with their natural speed boost when tactfully engaging combat, and their unparalleled Stamina Recovery.
Look at your logic that I bolded. Enemies can’t be bothered to sneak about.
Then look at the change you made. Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m
So enemies can’t be bothered to sneak yet Bosmer can detect sneaking better. Your own explanation invalidates your own logic.
Also, they're reasoning seems pretty spot on, as both races have their own distinct version of a stealth detection passive.You're missing the point. The devs explicitly acknowledge that being able to see hidden things is completely unimportant in PVE, and then go right on ahead and give Bosmer this useless ability.ProbablePaul wrote: »Your comment about enemies sneaking about is missing the point, as they were elaborating on the sneaking mechanic being a non-universal one.
If you're going to make an argument against what someone said, you shouldn't remove the parts of their argument, especially if the parts you're removing agree with the points you're making.Also, they're reasoning seems pretty spot on, as both races have their own distinct version of a stealth detection passive. Your comment about enemies sneaking about is missing the point, as they were elaborating on the sneaking mechanic being a non-universal one. Maybe you mean for them to clarify what they meant by, "We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives."? Because the current, truest version of the wood elf passive is reduced detection, not increased detection. Although, their proposed passive is still a version of the passive, none-the-less; they never said they'd be identical.
Aaaaand, no, you're missing the point of my entire post, and the same point OP missed as well - what you interpret and what was said are two different things.
Regarding what the devs said, "We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives." They are actually keeping a part of the game mechanic; a game mechanic is more general than a passive alone, meaning that anything pertaining to stealth would fall under that umbrella, whether that be decreased or increased detection radius. There are no errors in logic here, just your interpretation of it.
Though, (and again) I did admit that the dev's confusingly said they would be 'keeping parts of each racial passive' implying that those parts that would be kept would be the ones we've seen before. But once they mentioned 'supporting that game mechanic' they could potentially do anything with stealth, and still technically be correct by calling it a version. Where in this case, instead of keeping the passives as we knew them, for bosmer they kept the three meter radius, except gave them increased instead of decreased radius; for khajiit, the khajiit kept the decreased radius, but they changed the size of the radius.
As for my post, the point was to encourage the OP to, rather than call the devs out on their logic, simply ask for the passive to return to the bosmer, instead. Why? OP didn't know what he was talking about, and I was trying to substantiate that.
What is your argument? That "Stealthy" and "Hunter's Eye" passive descriptions both contain the words "stealth", "3m", "by", and "radius"? And because of that they kept "parts" of the passive?
What is your argument? That "Stealthy" and "Hunter's Eye" passive descriptions both contain the words "stealth", "3m", "by", and "radius"? And because of that they kept "parts" of the passive?
Oh, can I play that game too ?
Unforeseen Bulk : Your stealth bonus is removed. You will be detected from further away by a 3m radius compared to your previous experience. Congo rats, you're now as bulky as a much larger Nord or Orc.
I rather enjoyed that logic discussion in a thread about illogical reasoning! Way to stay on topic.
But yeah. Just wanted to add that I am one more player who enjoys the stealth mechanic. I created my Bosmer because of the Stealthy passive. I have had a Bosmer in every TES game since Morrowind. I prefer to scout, infiltrate, and attack when optimal. I do not play PvP.
I am bitter about losing the 10% extra damage from stealth for my race. It's not that I enjoyed the extra damage, I enjoyed the idea of my character being more effective in stealth and as I exit stealth. But that one, I can understand losing it, even if I don't agree with it. That's my opinion.
What I hate is this entire replacement of my stealth racial. I never thought my Bosmer would lose its reduced detection radius passive. And the reasoning behind it is baffling, shows no depth of thought, and is illogical.
There has been very definitive feedback about Bosmer's losing their stealth bonus. ZOS has their vision and are sticking to it, no matter what the players want. But, if this change makes it to live, they will have destroyed the entire concept of my main character. Playing that character is 90% of my enjoyment with this game. My alts only support my main.
This change feels like they handed a Khajit a knife to stab me in the back. Like Blizzard recently did with Battle for Azeroth.
Et tu, Zenimax?
Oh! Don't bring up WoW I spent so many years in that game. My Bosmers deep origins started with my Blood Elf rouge, (who morphed into a bosmer in Skyrim and continued here). I used to belong to a semi-casual raiding guild. I left because I wanted less grind and more rp in what I did. I still do trials in ESO, last night I did CR+1 normal, CR+2 Vet, CR +3 normal. But I don't do it as much as I used to.
I moved on in 2104 to this game.
•••
Yeah. The way they are handling it really is awful. The loss of the 10% damage is a direct nerf because of pvp (gank builds) and (I think) with that mindset they added the detect, again from pvp. Everything about the passive now reeks of PvP actually.
My ESO Bosmer is as identical as possible to my first TES Morrowind character. It was my first character made in ESO (I even stayed up late on the night of ESO's launch to ensure I secured the name--I had to work the next day, lol). There was a semblance of it in WoW with a dark-haired blood elf rogue that was highly enjoyable to play in BC and Wrath. I then created it in Skyrim after I tried a Breton for a change of pace, but still went back to my origins eventually.
I did the same thing! I secured the names of my three "mains" from WoW.
Yeah the loss of stealth is going to impact my play a lot (if it goes through). It's just all super depressing. I hope the class (race?) devs have brought it up again, and there is a new pass this monday.
Cundu_Ertur wrote: »There's one guy there who just pulls up things at random "oh, health regen is useless in PVE, it's a PVP only skill, but no-one is complaining about that, so shut up Bosmer." WT actual HHF.