DoonerSeraph wrote: »
Earthgore needs to prevent rewarding multiple people stacking it, make it so if you get healed by its proc, you can't be affected by another earthgore proc for the same duration of its cooldown. It will still be a lifesaver, just not firing off another player every 5 seconds.
People who call for nerfs just baffle me.
If you think the skill is so good in PVP, you can use it, too. You just want your own build to be overpowered.
[...]
The people who frequent this forum are not a good representation of the game population, and many of the “casuals” spend as much money as or more than the more skilled players.
GeneralRoadkill wrote: »People who call for nerfs just baffle me.
If you think the skill is so good in PVP, you can use it, too. You just want your own build to be overpowered.
[...]
The people who frequent this forum are not a good representation of the game population, and many of the “casuals” spend as much money as or more than the more skilled players.
Most people crying Nerf! in the forums are so mad about their last death that they took to the forums to make themselves feel better. Skilled players are too busy winning campaigns to care about the going-on’s of the forums.
I just couldn’t help but noticed yet another thread crying for Cloak nerf when I was originally after the PTS natch potes. (And I got suckered in )
2. Cloak away from any fight you don’t think you’ll win.
LOL
You want to see nightblade? Let's make cloak just cleance 5 negative effects and give minor vitality for 3 sec
Sure. Nerfing cloak only nerfs bad players and bad players won’t make good use of a purge. That actually sounds like a great change since it removed cloak entirely, thanks for the suggestion!
You want to see nightblade? Let's make cloak just cleance 5 negative effects and give minor vitality for 3 sec
Sure. Nerfing cloak only nerfs bad players and bad players won’t make good use of a purge. That actually sounds like a great change since it removed cloak entirely, thanks for the suggestion!
Reading some of your responses and wanted to reply.
First of all, your argument that cloak is only used by bad players is rhetorical garbage. I've played with Kena, Zendran, VitaBelial. One of these three is probably the best magblade in the world and they all used cloak when I played with them.
The thing about cloak is that it only scales in 1vX (same with shade), so calling people who use cloak zergling only displays your lack of understanding of the magblade class. In a 1v1 cloak is already a subpar option and most magblades use something else. Whenever I have a half decent team in BG's, I immediately remove cloak as I know that I won't be using it at all for the entire game. You can argue that some 1vXers crutch on cloak, and I'd agree, but claiming zerglings clutch on cloak is an inherently misinformed argument.
Your navel gazing opinion about cloak only being used by bad players also fails to acknowledge that cloak is a class defining ability that aids a certain playstyle. Sure you don't *need* cloak for a particular destro/resto build with some BIS set combination, but your short-sighted claims can easily destroy half a dozen different playstyles.
I could argue that good sorcs don't need streak, good templars don't need BOL (or cleanse), good DK's don't need wings, good wardens don't need shimmering shields. But all of these abilities are uniquely class defining abilities that people have specifically used to make
Cloak feel pretty balanced in BG's, and in cyrodil it scales really well in certain situations. With all that being said, I am not against cloak being rebalanced.
1) I don't mind having the cloak get the streak treatment; as long as you remove all counters that break/reveal cloak.
Streak while having a cost multiplier, guarantees that your character will move 22m or so. Guarentee my cloak isn't broken for 3 seconds I'm fine with the streak treatment.
2) I don't mind cloak getting the mist form treatment, granted you can guarantee that my cloak will not be broken for those 3 seconds. I love a good snare removal.
Keeping all the counters to cloak while significantly nerfing it a terrible balance decision. I highly doubt Kena (undisputably a great nightblade who uses cloak) would let that go through. Pick one or the other.
You want to see nightblade? Let's make cloak just cleance 5 negative effects and give minor vitality for 3 sec
Sure. Nerfing cloak only nerfs bad players and bad players won’t make good use of a purge. That actually sounds like a great change since it removed cloak entirely, thanks for the suggestion!
Reading some of your responses and wanted to reply.
First of all, your argument that cloak is only used by bad players is rhetorical garbage. I've played with Kena, Zendran, VitaBelial. One of these three is probably the best magblade in the world and they all used cloak when I played with them.
The thing about cloak is that it only scales in 1vX (same with shade), so calling people who use cloak zergling only displays your lack of understanding of the magblade class. In a 1v1 cloak is already a subpar option and most magblades use something else. Whenever I have a half decent team in BG's, I immediately remove cloak as I know that I won't be using it at all for the entire game. You can argue that some 1vXers crutch on cloak, and I'd agree, but claiming zerglings clutch on cloak is an inherently misinformed argument.
Your navel gazing opinion about cloak only being used by bad players also fails to acknowledge that cloak is a class defining ability that aids a certain playstyle. Sure you don't *need* cloak for a particular destro/resto build with some BIS set combination, but your short-sighted claims can easily destroy half a dozen different playstyles.
I could argue that good sorcs don't need streak, good templars don't need BOL (or cleanse), good DK's don't need wings, good wardens don't need shimmering shields. But all of these abilities are uniquely class defining abilities that people have specifically used to make
Cloak feel pretty balanced in BG's, and in cyrodil it scales really well in certain situations. With all that being said, I am not against cloak being rebalanced.
1) I don't mind having the cloak get the streak treatment; as long as you remove all counters that break/reveal cloak.
Streak while having a cost multiplier, guarantees that your character will move 22m or so. Guarentee my cloak isn't broken for 3 seconds I'm fine with the streak treatment.
2) I don't mind cloak getting the mist form treatment, granted you can guarantee that my cloak will not be broken for those 3 seconds. I love a good snare removal.
Keeping all the counters to cloak while significantly nerfing it a terrible balance decision. I highly doubt Kena (undisputably a great nightblade who uses cloak) would let that go through. Pick one or the other.
I never said Cloak is only used by bad players. Not once. I said nerfing it only nerfs bad players, because good players don’t need it to succeed. Your whole argument is a Strawman.
Cloak (stealth mechanic) needs a nerf. Period. At the same time it can be changed in such a way that it’s actually a buff for good players (snare removal). This is how the game should be balanced. Reward skill.
You want to see nightblade? Let's make cloak just cleance 5 negative effects and give minor vitality for 3 sec
Sure. Nerfing cloak only nerfs bad players and bad players won’t make good use of a purge. That actually sounds like a great change since it removed cloak entirely, thanks for the suggestion!
Reading some of your responses and wanted to reply.
First of all, your argument that cloak is only used by bad players is rhetorical garbage. I've played with Kena, Zendran, VitaBelial. One of these three is probably the best magblade in the world and they all used cloak when I played with them.
The thing about cloak is that it only scales in 1vX (same with shade), so calling people who use cloak zergling only displays your lack of understanding of the magblade class. In a 1v1 cloak is already a subpar option and most magblades use something else. Whenever I have a half decent team in BG's, I immediately remove cloak as I know that I won't be using it at all for the entire game. You can argue that some 1vXers crutch on cloak, and I'd agree, but claiming zerglings clutch on cloak is an inherently misinformed argument.
Your navel gazing opinion about cloak only being used by bad players also fails to acknowledge that cloak is a class defining ability that aids a certain playstyle. Sure you don't *need* cloak for a particular destro/resto build with some BIS set combination, but your short-sighted claims can easily destroy half a dozen different playstyles.
I could argue that good sorcs don't need streak, good templars don't need BOL (or cleanse), good DK's don't need wings, good wardens don't need shimmering shields. But all of these abilities are uniquely class defining abilities that people have specifically used to make
Cloak feel pretty balanced in BG's, and in cyrodil it scales really well in certain situations. With all that being said, I am not against cloak being rebalanced.
1) I don't mind having the cloak get the streak treatment; as long as you remove all counters that break/reveal cloak.
Streak while having a cost multiplier, guarantees that your character will move 22m or so. Guarentee my cloak isn't broken for 3 seconds I'm fine with the streak treatment.
2) I don't mind cloak getting the mist form treatment, granted you can guarantee that my cloak will not be broken for those 3 seconds. I love a good snare removal.
Keeping all the counters to cloak while significantly nerfing it a terrible balance decision. I highly doubt Kena (undisputably a great nightblade who uses cloak) would let that go through. Pick one or the other.
I never said Cloak is only used by bad players. Not once. I said nerfing it only nerfs bad players, because good players don’t need it to succeed. Your whole argument is a Strawman.
Cloak (stealth mechanic) needs a nerf. Period. At the same time it can be changed in such a way that it’s actually a buff for good players (snare removal). This is how the game should be balanced. Reward skill.
My apologies.
You said "Majority of good nightblades don't use cloak". Which would imply only a minority of good magblades use cloak. Which would imply most people using cloak are bad players (unless the minority of good players are a majority in using cloak). I take back the *only* part in my post above.
I strongly doubt the above claim, as I have nothing convincing me to believe it in my 4 years of magblade. (unless you are not talking about openworld). I'd love for you to name a better nightblade than the 3 of the ones I mentioned. All good mag nightblades I've met used cloak in openworld. In BG's, cloak is somewhat optional depending on your team. 1v1, cloak is subpar and almost no one uses it.
You want to see nightblade? Let's make cloak just cleance 5 negative effects and give minor vitality for 3 sec
Sure. Nerfing cloak only nerfs bad players and bad players won’t make good use of a purge. That actually sounds like a great change since it removed cloak entirely, thanks for the suggestion!
Reading some of your responses and wanted to reply.
First of all, your argument that cloak is only used by bad players is rhetorical garbage. I've played with Kena, Zendran, VitaBelial. One of these three is probably the best magblade in the world and they all used cloak when I played with them.
The thing about cloak is that it only scales in 1vX (same with shade), so calling people who use cloak zergling only displays your lack of understanding of the magblade class. In a 1v1 cloak is already a subpar option and most magblades use something else. Whenever I have a half decent team in BG's, I immediately remove cloak as I know that I won't be using it at all for the entire game. You can argue that some 1vXers crutch on cloak, and I'd agree, but claiming zerglings clutch on cloak is an inherently misinformed argument.
Your navel gazing opinion about cloak only being used by bad players also fails to acknowledge that cloak is a class defining ability that aids a certain playstyle. Sure you don't *need* cloak for a particular destro/resto build with some BIS set combination, but your short-sighted claims can easily destroy half a dozen different playstyles.
I could argue that good sorcs don't need streak, good templars don't need BOL (or cleanse), good DK's don't need wings, good wardens don't need shimmering shields. But all of these abilities are uniquely class defining abilities that people have specifically used to make
Cloak feel pretty balanced in BG's, and in cyrodil it scales really well in certain situations. With all that being said, I am not against cloak being rebalanced.
1) I don't mind having the cloak get the streak treatment; as long as you remove all counters that break/reveal cloak.
Streak while having a cost multiplier, guarantees that your character will move 22m or so. Guarentee my cloak isn't broken for 3 seconds I'm fine with the streak treatment.
2) I don't mind cloak getting the mist form treatment, granted you can guarantee that my cloak will not be broken for those 3 seconds. I love a good snare removal.
Keeping all the counters to cloak while significantly nerfing it a terrible balance decision. I highly doubt Kena (undisputably a great nightblade who uses cloak) would let that go through. Pick one or the other.
I never said Cloak is only used by bad players. Not once. I said nerfing it only nerfs bad players, because good players don’t need it to succeed. Your whole argument is a Strawman.
Cloak (stealth mechanic) needs a nerf. Period. At the same time it can be changed in such a way that it’s actually a buff for good players (snare removal). This is how the game should be balanced. Reward skill.
My apologies.
You said "Majority of good nightblades don't use cloak". Which would imply only a minority of good magblades use cloak. Which would imply most people using cloak are bad players (unless the minority of good players are a majority in using cloak). I take back the *only* part in my post above.
I strongly doubt the above claim, as I have nothing convincing me to believe it in my 4 years of magblade. (unless you are not talking about openworld). I'd love for you to name a better nightblade than the 3 of the ones I mentioned. All good mag nightblades I've met used cloak in openworld. In BG's, cloak is somewhat optional depending on your team. 1v1, cloak is subpar and almost no one uses it.
https://youtu.be/YuzJ2N2yg8w he doesn’t even main Magicka Nightblade. He mains a StamDK.
Maybe it’s a disparity between console and PC. But i can assure you on console (PS4 NA) that the top Magblades do not use cloak. It’s actually frowned upon.
https://youtu.be/9HjTCQMEcOg
Cloak (stealth mechanic) needs a nerf. Period.
spartaxoxo wrote: »Haashhtaag wrote: »Earthgore is a carry in PvE^^^
I’ve completed all endgame Vet content without earthgore. Tbh it acts as a failsafe mechanic to save groups from deaths when they mess up, essentially carrying them.
It’d do well to make endgame content more difficult and healer reliant by nerfing earthgore. I don’t think any actual endgame player has ever thought earthgore was healthy for Endgame PVE.
If endgame elites feel like a set is a carry. They have the choice not to use it. Simple.
I run trials that aren’t made up of elite players, and we still wipe. Endgame players that can beat content naked and with their eyes closed, shouldn’t even be giving their opinions on the game difficulty for less skilled players. Just my opinion.Earthgore is a carry in PvE^^^
I’ve completed all endgame Vet content without earthgore. Tbh it acts as a failsafe mechanic to save groups from deaths when they mess up, essentially carrying them.
It’d do well to make endgame content more difficult and healer reliant by nerfing earthgore. I don’t think any actual endgame player has ever thought earthgore was healthy for Endgame PVE.
If endgame elites feel like a set is a carry. They have the choice not to use it. Simple.
I run trials that aren’t made up of elite players, and we still wipe. Endgame players that can beat content naked and with their eyes closed, shouldn’t even be giving their opinions on the game difficulty for less skilled players. Just my opinion.
So would you rather this set carry your group and actually putting in the work to better your group so this set isn’t necessary?
You're acting like everyone has a group. They don't. This game already has some of the lowest completion ratios of non-score end game content out there, people already queue dodge and some people wait months or years to be able to try out new content. PvE doesn't need to be made harder.
Plenty of people have never stepped foot in the endgame content despite being around for years and having the builds necessary to beat that content, because endgame guilds don't like taking inexperienced people and going through some week long process to train them.
Good for you if you did it. But Earthgore is not a carry set, it is a training tool. Elitism like this is strangling the life out of this game.
Ultimately if cloak were to get the mist form treatment, or the streak treatment, it needs most if not all of its counters removed. Including detect pots and AOE's.
You want to see nightblade? Let's make cloak just cleance 5 negative effects and give minor vitality for 3 sec
Sure. Nerfing cloak only nerfs bad players and bad players won’t make good use of a purge. That actually sounds like a great change since it removed cloak entirely, thanks for the suggestion!
Reading some of your responses and wanted to reply.
First of all, your argument that cloak is only used by bad players is rhetorical garbage. I've played with Kena, Zendran, VitaBelial. One of these three is probably the best magblade in the world and they all used cloak when I played with them.
The thing about cloak is that it only scales in 1vX (same with shade), so calling people who use cloak zergling only displays your lack of understanding of the magblade class. In a 1v1 cloak is already a subpar option and most magblades use something else. Whenever I have a half decent team in BG's, I immediately remove cloak as I know that I won't be using it at all for the entire game. You can argue that some 1vXers crutch on cloak, and I'd agree, but claiming zerglings clutch on cloak is an inherently misinformed argument.
Your navel gazing opinion about cloak only being used by bad players also fails to acknowledge that cloak is a class defining ability that aids a certain playstyle. Sure you don't *need* cloak for a particular destro/resto build with some BIS set combination, but your short-sighted claims can easily destroy half a dozen different playstyles.
I could argue that good sorcs don't need streak, good templars don't need BOL (or cleanse), good DK's don't need wings, good wardens don't need shimmering shields. But all of these abilities are uniquely class defining abilities that people have specifically used to make
Cloak feel pretty balanced in BG's, and in cyrodil it scales really well in certain situations. With all that being said, I am not against cloak being rebalanced.
1) I don't mind having the cloak get the streak treatment; as long as you remove all counters that break/reveal cloak.
Streak while having a cost multiplier, guarantees that your character will move 22m or so. Guarentee my cloak isn't broken for 3 seconds I'm fine with the streak treatment.
2) I don't mind cloak getting the mist form treatment, granted you can guarantee that my cloak will not be broken for those 3 seconds. I love a good snare removal.
Keeping all the counters to cloak while significantly nerfing it a terrible balance decision. I highly doubt Kena (undisputably a great nightblade who uses cloak) would let that go through. Pick one or the other.
I never said Cloak is only used by bad players. Not once. I said nerfing it only nerfs bad players, because good players don’t need it to succeed. Your whole argument is a Strawman.
Cloak (stealth mechanic) needs a nerf. Period. At the same time it can be changed in such a way that it’s actually a buff for good players (snare removal). This is how the game should be balanced. Reward skill.
My apologies.
You said "Majority of good nightblades don't use cloak". Which would imply only a minority of good magblades use cloak. Which would imply most people using cloak are bad players (unless the minority of good players are a majority in using cloak). I take back the *only* part in my post above.
I strongly doubt the above claim, as I have nothing convincing me to believe it in my 4 years of magblade. (unless you are not talking about openworld). I'd love for you to name a better nightblade than the 3 of the ones I mentioned. All good mag nightblades I've met used cloak in openworld. In BG's, cloak is somewhat optional depending on your team. 1v1, cloak is subpar and almost no one uses it.
https://youtu.be/YuzJ2N2yg8w he doesn’t even main Magicka Nightblade. He mains a StamDK.
Maybe it’s a disparity between console and PC. But i can assure you on console (PS4 NA) that the top Magblades do not use cloak. It’s actually frowned upon.
https://youtu.be/9HjTCQMEcOg
Both videos, players running destro/resto with necropotence (you can see their max magicka go up) with 50k max magicka.
Second guy enjoys the no shield cap meta, first guy compensates his health a little to still utilize max shields. (additionally his dark cloak goes up).
Both builds not viable in no cp pvp. Health takes a huge hit, and their shields can see about a 12%-15% nerf due to the health cap. Dark cloak gets nerfed in no cp as well. Their healing/steadfast wards also go down. All in all, defense nerfed on 3 fronts when you go in no cp.
Even this build gets a hard nerf, as % based race modifiers are removed and these guys with 50k magicka will be hit the hardest.
Like I said, if you intend on curbing magblades on a very niche destro/resto build with certain BIS sets in CP, sure magblades will be fine.
Ultimately if cloak were to get the mist form treatment, or the streak treatment, it needs most if not all of its counters removed. Including detect pots and AOE's.
GeneralRoadkill wrote: »
Cloak (stealth mechanic) needs a nerf. Period.
Instead of crying Nerf! Why don’t you offer a viable solution. The only thing I’ve seen you provide is vague alternatives, like rebalancing in a way that buffs skilled play.
Care to elaborate? I want to emphasize that I am not completely against cloak changes, but simply stating something needs a nerf does not further any conversation or debate relating to the issue at hand.
And as someone else stated, removing it from the game would remove a defining ability for one of the original launch classes, as well as dozens of play styles that have varying degrees of reliance on cloak.
And you may also be correct about disparity between PC and PS4, but on PC - all of the best players I see use cloak and sometimes image in tandem, which make for some sick plays that honestly come down to the player outwitting several opponents simultaneously. Just because console casuals don’t approve of it doesn’t mean it needs to be nerfed or removed. It’s part of the game.
UYou want to see nightblade? Let's make cloak just cleance 5 negative effects and give minor vitality for 3 sec
Sure. Nerfing cloak only nerfs bad players and bad players won’t make good use of a purge. That actually sounds like a great change since it removed cloak entirely, thanks for the suggestion!
Reading some of your responses and wanted to reply.
First of all, your argument that cloak is only used by bad players is rhetorical garbage. I've played with Kena, Zendran, VitaBelial. One of these three is probably the best magblade in the world and they all used cloak when I played with them.
The thing about cloak is that it only scales in 1vX (same with shade), so calling people who use cloak zergling only displays your lack of understanding of the magblade class. In a 1v1 cloak is already a subpar option and most magblades use something else. Whenever I have a half decent team in BG's, I immediately remove cloak as I know that I won't be using it at all for the entire game. You can argue that some 1vXers crutch on cloak, and I'd agree, but claiming zerglings clutch on cloak is an inherently misinformed argument.
Your navel gazing opinion about cloak only being used by bad players also fails to acknowledge that cloak is a class defining ability that aids a certain playstyle. Sure you don't *need* cloak for a particular destro/resto build with some BIS set combination, but your short-sighted claims can easily destroy half a dozen different playstyles.
I could argue that good sorcs don't need streak, good templars don't need BOL (or cleanse), good DK's don't need wings, good wardens don't need shimmering shields. But all of these abilities are uniquely class defining abilities that people have specifically used to make
Cloak feel pretty balanced in BG's, and in cyrodil it scales really well in certain situations. With all that being said, I am not against cloak being rebalanced.
1) I don't mind having the cloak get the streak treatment; as long as you remove all counters that break/reveal cloak.
Streak while having a cost multiplier, guarantees that your character will move 22m or so. Guarentee my cloak isn't broken for 3 seconds I'm fine with the streak treatment.
2) I don't mind cloak getting the mist form treatment, granted you can guarantee that my cloak will not be broken for those 3 seconds. I love a good snare removal.
Keeping all the counters to cloak while significantly nerfing it a terrible balance decision. I highly doubt Kena (undisputably a great nightblade who uses cloak) would let that go through. Pick one or the other.
I never said Cloak is only used by bad players. Not once. I said nerfing it only nerfs bad players, because good players don’t need it to succeed. Your whole argument is a Strawman.
Cloak (stealth mechanic) needs a nerf. Period. At the same time it can be changed in such a way that it’s actually a buff for good players (snare removal). This is how the game should be balanced. Reward skill.
My apologies.
You said "Majority of good nightblades don't use cloak". Which would imply only a minority of good magblades use cloak. Which would imply most people using cloak are bad players (unless the minority of good players are a majority in using cloak). I take back the *only* part in my post above.
I strongly doubt the above claim, as I have nothing convincing me to believe it in my 4 years of magblade. (unless you are not talking about openworld). I'd love for you to name a better nightblade than the 3 of the ones I mentioned. All good mag nightblades I've met used cloak in openworld. In BG's, cloak is somewhat optional depending on your team. 1v1, cloak is subpar and almost no one uses it.
https://youtu.be/YuzJ2N2yg8w he doesn’t even main Magicka Nightblade. He mains a StamDK.
Maybe it’s a disparity between console and PC. But i can assure you on console (PS4 NA) that the top Magblades do not use cloak. It’s actually frowned upon.
https://youtu.be/9HjTCQMEcOg
Both videos, players running destro/resto with necropotence (you can see their max magicka go up) with 50k max magicka.
Second guy enjoys the no shield cap meta, first guy compensates his health a little to still utilize max shields. (additionally his dark cloak goes up).
Both builds not viable in no cp pvp. Health takes a huge hit, and their shields can see about a 12%-15% nerf due to the health cap. Dark cloak gets nerfed in no cp as well. Their healing/steadfast wards also go down. All in all, defense nerfed on 3 fronts when you go in no cp.
Even this build gets a hard nerf, as % based race modifiers are removed and these guys with 50k magicka will be hit the hardest.
Like I said, if you intend on curbing magblades on a very niche destro/resto build with certain BIS sets in CP, sure magblades will be fine.
Ultimately if cloak were to get the mist form treatment, or the streak treatment, it needs most if not all of its counters removed. Including detect pots and AOE's.
No. Keep the counters, give it the mist form treatment. Make the base ability grant snare removal and only the stealth one gets the mist treatment. Stealth mechanic as a whole is outrageous that it even exists.GeneralRoadkill wrote: »
Cloak (stealth mechanic) needs a nerf. Period.
Instead of crying Nerf! Why don’t you offer a viable solution. The only thing I’ve seen you provide is vague alternatives, like rebalancing in a way that buffs skilled play.
Care to elaborate? I want to emphasize that I am not completely against cloak changes, but simply stating something needs a nerf does not further any conversation or debate relating to the issue at hand.
And as someone else stated, removing it from the game would remove a defining ability for one of the original launch classes, as well as dozens of play styles that have varying degrees of reliance on cloak.
And you may also be correct about disparity between PC and PS4, but on PC - all of the best players I see use cloak and sometimes image in tandem, which make for some sick plays that honestly come down to the player outwitting several opponents simultaneously. Just because console casuals don’t approve of it doesn’t mean it needs to be nerfed or removed. It’s part of the game.
You believe that skilled players are busy winning campaigns; 99% of skilled players don’t care about the score, at all.
usmcjdking wrote: »
Ultimately if cloak were to get the mist form treatment, or the streak treatment, it needs most if not all of its counters removed. Including detect pots and AOE's.
I agree. Remove all gap closers, have ball lightning last like 8 seconds again and absorb all projectiles and make everything dodgeable again.
No. Keep the counters, give it the mist form treatment. Make the base ability grant snare removal and only the stealth one gets the mist treatment. Stealth mechanic as a whole is outrageous that it even exists.
usmcjdking wrote: »
Ultimately if cloak were to get the mist form treatment, or the streak treatment, it needs most if not all of its counters removed. Including detect pots and AOE's.
I agree. Remove all gap closers, have ball lightning last like 8 seconds again and absorb all projectiles and make everything dodgeable again.
Streak has one counter, if you gap close your enemy from hugging range.
I don't mind keeping mage-light, expert hunter or flares which will be essentially the same. Hugging your enemy? Magelight can reveal you.
Additionally with streak, even if one person does gap close you, it's only one person. If you are 1vXing, you will never have all X amount of people reach you with streak. Cloak on the other hand, one guy decides to spin2win/hurricane/dk armor/magelight and you get revealed for everyone.
Balance wise, if you want to make cloak like streak, no one will be able to cloak more than 3 times without exhausting their entire magicka pool. At that point, if you keep 3 dozen counters cloak has with all the AOE's, then its just useless altogether.
No. Keep the counters, give it the mist form treatment. Make the base ability grant snare removal and only the stealth one gets the mist treatment. Stealth mechanic as a whole is outrageous that it even exists.
You do realize your enemy can not break your mist form? That is one of the major reasons people use mist-form. If you are advocating for that, then I'm fine with the changes more or less. I don't think ZOS or Kena will be fine with them. But at this point no point in further argument. Highly unlikely they will convert a class defining ability into something that already exists in the game, available to everybody, all because someone is outraged at stealth gameplay.
TequilaFire wrote: »UYou want to see nightblade? Let's make cloak just cleance 5 negative effects and give minor vitality for 3 sec
Sure. Nerfing cloak only nerfs bad players and bad players won’t make good use of a purge. That actually sounds like a great change since it removed cloak entirely, thanks for the suggestion!
Reading some of your responses and wanted to reply.
First of all, your argument that cloak is only used by bad players is rhetorical garbage. I've played with Kena, Zendran, VitaBelial. One of these three is probably the best magblade in the world and they all used cloak when I played with them.
The thing about cloak is that it only scales in 1vX (same with shade), so calling people who use cloak zergling only displays your lack of understanding of the magblade class. In a 1v1 cloak is already a subpar option and most magblades use something else. Whenever I have a half decent team in BG's, I immediately remove cloak as I know that I won't be using it at all for the entire game. You can argue that some 1vXers crutch on cloak, and I'd agree, but claiming zerglings clutch on cloak is an inherently misinformed argument.
Your navel gazing opinion about cloak only being used by bad players also fails to acknowledge that cloak is a class defining ability that aids a certain playstyle. Sure you don't *need* cloak for a particular destro/resto build with some BIS set combination, but your short-sighted claims can easily destroy half a dozen different playstyles.
I could argue that good sorcs don't need streak, good templars don't need BOL (or cleanse), good DK's don't need wings, good wardens don't need shimmering shields. But all of these abilities are uniquely class defining abilities that people have specifically used to make
Cloak feel pretty balanced in BG's, and in cyrodil it scales really well in certain situations. With all that being said, I am not against cloak being rebalanced.
1) I don't mind having the cloak get the streak treatment; as long as you remove all counters that break/reveal cloak.
Streak while having a cost multiplier, guarantees that your character will move 22m or so. Guarentee my cloak isn't broken for 3 seconds I'm fine with the streak treatment.
2) I don't mind cloak getting the mist form treatment, granted you can guarantee that my cloak will not be broken for those 3 seconds. I love a good snare removal.
Keeping all the counters to cloak while significantly nerfing it a terrible balance decision. I highly doubt Kena (undisputably a great nightblade who uses cloak) would let that go through. Pick one or the other.
I never said Cloak is only used by bad players. Not once. I said nerfing it only nerfs bad players, because good players don’t need it to succeed. Your whole argument is a Strawman.
Cloak (stealth mechanic) needs a nerf. Period. At the same time it can be changed in such a way that it’s actually a buff for good players (snare removal). This is how the game should be balanced. Reward skill.
My apologies.
You said "Majority of good nightblades don't use cloak". Which would imply only a minority of good magblades use cloak. Which would imply most people using cloak are bad players (unless the minority of good players are a majority in using cloak). I take back the *only* part in my post above.
I strongly doubt the above claim, as I have nothing convincing me to believe it in my 4 years of magblade. (unless you are not talking about openworld). I'd love for you to name a better nightblade than the 3 of the ones I mentioned. All good mag nightblades I've met used cloak in openworld. In BG's, cloak is somewhat optional depending on your team. 1v1, cloak is subpar and almost no one uses it.
https://youtu.be/YuzJ2N2yg8w he doesn’t even main Magicka Nightblade. He mains a StamDK.
Maybe it’s a disparity between console and PC. But i can assure you on console (PS4 NA) that the top Magblades do not use cloak. It’s actually frowned upon.
https://youtu.be/9HjTCQMEcOg
Both videos, players running destro/resto with necropotence (you can see their max magicka go up) with 50k max magicka.
Second guy enjoys the no shield cap meta, first guy compensates his health a little to still utilize max shields. (additionally his dark cloak goes up).
Both builds not viable in no cp pvp. Health takes a huge hit, and their shields can see about a 12%-15% nerf due to the health cap. Dark cloak gets nerfed in no cp as well. Their healing/steadfast wards also go down. All in all, defense nerfed on 3 fronts when you go in no cp.
Even this build gets a hard nerf, as % based race modifiers are removed and these guys with 50k magicka will be hit the hardest.
Like I said, if you intend on curbing magblades on a very niche destro/resto build with certain BIS sets in CP, sure magblades will be fine.
Ultimately if cloak were to get the mist form treatment, or the streak treatment, it needs most if not all of its counters removed. Including detect pots and AOE's.
No. Keep the counters, give it the mist form treatment. Make the base ability grant snare removal and only the stealth one gets the mist treatment. Stealth mechanic as a whole is outrageous that it even exists.GeneralRoadkill wrote: »
Cloak (stealth mechanic) needs a nerf. Period.
Instead of crying Nerf! Why don’t you offer a viable solution. The only thing I’ve seen you provide is vague alternatives, like rebalancing in a way that buffs skilled play.
Care to elaborate? I want to emphasize that I am not completely against cloak changes, but simply stating something needs a nerf does not further any conversation or debate relating to the issue at hand.
And as someone else stated, removing it from the game would remove a defining ability for one of the original launch classes, as well as dozens of play styles that have varying degrees of reliance on cloak.
And you may also be correct about disparity between PC and PS4, but on PC - all of the best players I see use cloak and sometimes image in tandem, which make for some sick plays that honestly come down to the player outwitting several opponents simultaneously. Just because console casuals don’t approve of it doesn’t mean it needs to be nerfed or removed. It’s part of the game.
You believe that skilled players are busy winning campaigns; 99% of skilled players don’t care about the score, at all.
So what are they doing?
And once and for all define your version of "skill".
You want to see nightblade? Let's make cloak just cleance 5 negative effects and give minor vitality for 3 sec
Sure. Nerfing cloak only nerfs bad players and bad players won’t make good use of a purge. That actually sounds like a great change since it removed cloak entirely, thanks for the suggestion!
Reading some of your responses and wanted to reply.
First of all, your argument that cloak is only used by bad players is rhetorical garbage. I've played with Kena, Zendran, VitaBelial. One of these three is probably the best magblade in the world and they all used cloak when I played with them.
The thing about cloak is that it only scales in 1vX (same with shade), so calling people who use cloak zergling only displays your lack of understanding of the magblade class. In a 1v1 cloak is already a subpar option and most magblades use something else. Whenever I have a half decent team in BG's, I immediately remove cloak as I know that I won't be using it at all for the entire game. You can argue that some 1vXers crutch on cloak, and I'd agree, but claiming zerglings clutch on cloak is an inherently misinformed argument.
Your navel gazing opinion about cloak only being used by bad players also fails to acknowledge that cloak is a class defining ability that aids a certain playstyle. Sure you don't *need* cloak for a particular destro/resto build with some BIS set combination, but your short-sighted claims can easily destroy half a dozen different playstyles.
I could argue that good sorcs don't need streak, good templars don't need BOL (or cleanse), good DK's don't need wings, good wardens don't need shimmering shields. But all of these abilities are uniquely class defining abilities that people have specifically used to make
Cloak feel pretty balanced in BG's, and in cyrodil it scales really well in certain situations. With all that being said, I am not against cloak being rebalanced.
1) I don't mind having the cloak get the streak treatment; as long as you remove all counters that break/reveal cloak.
Streak while having a cost multiplier, guarantees that your character will move 22m or so. Guarentee my cloak isn't broken for 3 seconds I'm fine with the streak treatment.
2) I don't mind cloak getting the mist form treatment, granted you can guarantee that my cloak will not be broken for those 3 seconds. I love a good snare removal.
Keeping all the counters to cloak while significantly nerfing it a terrible balance decision. I highly doubt Kena (undisputably a great nightblade who uses cloak) would let that go through. Pick one or the other.
I never said Cloak is only used by bad players. Not once. I said nerfing it only nerfs bad players, because good players don’t need it to succeed. Your whole argument is a Strawman.
Cloak (stealth mechanic) needs a nerf. Period. At the same time it can be changed in such a way that it’s actually a buff for good players (snare removal). This is how the game should be balanced. Reward skill.
My apologies.
You said "Majority of good nightblades don't use cloak". Which would imply only a minority of good magblades use cloak. Which would imply most people using cloak are bad players (unless the minority of good players are a majority in using cloak). I take back the *only* part in my post above.
I strongly doubt the above claim, as I have nothing convincing me to believe it in my 4 years of magblade. (unless you are not talking about openworld). I'd love for you to name a better nightblade than the 3 of the ones I mentioned. All good mag nightblades I've met used cloak in openworld. In BG's, cloak is somewhat optional depending on your team. 1v1, cloak is subpar and almost no one uses it.
https://youtu.be/YuzJ2N2yg8w he doesn’t even main Magicka Nightblade. He mains a StamDK.
Maybe it’s a disparity between console and PC. But i can assure you on console (PS4 NA) that the top Magblades do not use cloak. It’s actually frowned upon.
https://youtu.be/9HjTCQMEcOg
Earthgore is a carry in PvE^^^
I’ve completed all endgame Vet content without earthgore. Tbh it acts as a failsafe mechanic to save groups from deaths when they mess up, essentially carrying them.
It’d do well to make endgame content more difficult and healer reliant by nerfing earthgore. I don’t think any actual endgame player has ever thought earthgore was healthy for Endgame PVE.
Earthgore is a carry in PvE^^^
I’ve completed all endgame Vet content without earthgore. Tbh it acts as a failsafe mechanic to save groups from deaths when they mess up, essentially carrying them.
It’d do well to make endgame content more difficult and healer reliant by nerfing earthgore. I don’t think any actual endgame player has ever thought earthgore was healthy for Endgame PVE.
Well thank you for blessing us with your presense. If you wanna get technical a healer in anything but trials is a carry, saving players who dont have self heals or stand in red. Lets just remove them entirely and see how many new players rage quit. There's nothing wrong with a failsafe. Someone misses a dodge, someone overextends and that happens a lot, even more in the 99% that I belong to and having a way to course correct from those mistakes enables me to do my daily pledges and my HMs with average joe and jane doe from the dungeon finder without begging my way in to a 1% guild. The more you limit the typical player from content the less players youll have sticking around paying the bills. And if all these cry nerfs go through it will hinder a rapidly expanding and learning player base.
People who call for nerfs just baffle me.
If you think the skill is so good in PVP, you can use it, too. You just want your own build to be overpowered.
If you think a skill is so good in PVE and that warrants a nerf, you are completely out of touch with the vast majority of PVE players in this game. I’m talking about players for whom vet BRF is a major breakthrough, something worthy of a truly awesome reward or they would never put themselves through that. I have helped many people in their first vet runs through BRF or CoS for the helms, and the helms were the ONLY reason they considered attempting it. And based on what I see in pledge pugs, these were actually above average players struggling to clear vet for the first time.
The people who frequent this forum are not a good representation of the game population, and many of the “casuals” spend as much money as or more than the more skilled players.
Earthgore is a carry in PvE^^^
I’ve completed all endgame Vet content without earthgore. Tbh it acts as a failsafe mechanic to save groups from deaths when they mess up, essentially carrying them.
It’d do well to make endgame content more difficult and healer reliant by nerfing earthgore. I don’t think any actual endgame player has ever thought earthgore was healthy for Endgame PVE.
Well thank you for blessing us with your presense. If you wanna get technical a healer in anything but trials is a carry, saving players who dont have self heals or stand in red. Lets just remove them entirely and see how many new players rage quit. There's nothing wrong with a failsafe. Someone misses a dodge, someone overextends and that happens a lot, even more in the 99% that I belong to and having a way to course correct from those mistakes enables me to do my daily pledges and my HMs with average joe and jane doe from the dungeon finder without begging my way in to a 1% guild. The more you limit the typical player from content the less players youll have sticking around paying the bills. And if all these cry nerfs go through it will hinder a rapidly expanding and learning player base.
I don’t run a healer in any non trial content, you’re gimping your group DPS wise so no point in it. If you chose to have that failsafe carry then your DPS suffers, it’s a good trade-off.
In true endgame content most healers run Bogdan anyways. Earthgore wont be missed.
TequilaFire wrote: »And once and for all define your version of "skill".
It’d do well to make endgame content more difficult and healer reliant by nerfing earthgore. I don’t think any actual endgame player has ever thought earthgore was healthy for Endgame PVE.
It’d do well to make endgame content more difficult and healer reliant by nerfing earthgore. I don’t think any actual endgame player has ever thought earthgore was healthy for Endgame PVE.
How the hell does nerfing a healer set make healers more viable for endgame? I guess if you only count vet trials, but healers are already used there sooooo that doesn't make sense.
Tank + 3 DPS with DPS monsters sets is by far better than randomly hoping earthgore procs. Hell Chudan for DPS with that logic because it just reduces and extra dmg you take to the point you don't *go* below 50 anyway.
Bogdan is *** in some Vet HM's btw. Its just too small and you have to move too much. I can't imagine it getting any use in something like Fang Lair HM.
March HM is another one - the hunt is probably where you would need it, and you just sorta have to hope it procs near a trap otherwise you just run right out of it anyway.
It’d do well to make endgame content more difficult and healer reliant by nerfing earthgore. I don’t think any actual endgame player has ever thought earthgore was healthy for Endgame PVE.
How the hell does nerfing a healer set make healers more viable for endgame? I guess if you only count vet trials, but healers are already used there sooooo that doesn't make sense.
Tank + 3 DPS with DPS monsters sets is by far better than randomly hoping earthgore procs. Hell Chudan for DPS with that logic because it just reduces and extra dmg you take to the point you don't *go* below 50 anyway.
Bogdan is *** in some Vet HM's btw. Its just too small and you have to move too much. I can't imagine it getting any use in something like Fang Lair HM.
March HM is another one - the hunt is probably where you would need it, and you just sorta have to hope it procs near a trap otherwise you just run right out of it anyway.
Not true. You can complete vHRC for instance with only 1 healer if the tank going bottom has 5 decent enough DPS and is wearing earthgore for the extra healing.
A set can literally replace a healer entirely. How does that come across as balanced to anybody?