The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Snipe, Earthgore, TimeStop and Cloak all need nerfs.
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templesus✭✭✭✭✭
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I did address Cloak, and gave a viable solution, if you took the care to go back and read. I also defined skill, again, if you took the care to go back and read.GeneralRoadkill wrote: »Go back and read and you’ll see the proposed solutions for the requested nerfs. And please stop letting emotion seep into your posts as it inhibits structural debate.
Maybe in the case of the other 3 subjects you brought up, but as for cloak - you’ve contributed nothing.
So let’s define “Skill” here. Is it who can make the most AP? Who can maintain top 10? Or who can post the most videos to YouTube of them winning duels?
Cause you’ve missed that one key element in every single argument.UYou want to see nightblade? Let's make cloak just cleance 5 negative effects and give minor vitality for 3 sec
Sure. Nerfing cloak only nerfs bad players and bad players won’t make good use of a purge. That actually sounds like a great change since it removed cloak entirely, thanks for the suggestion!
Reading some of your responses and wanted to reply.
First of all, your argument that cloak is only used by bad players is rhetorical garbage. I've played with Kena, Zendran, VitaBelial. One of these three is probably the best magblade in the world and they all used cloak when I played with them.
The thing about cloak is that it only scales in 1vX (same with shade), so calling people who use cloak zergling only displays your lack of understanding of the magblade class. In a 1v1 cloak is already a subpar option and most magblades use something else. Whenever I have a half decent team in BG's, I immediately remove cloak as I know that I won't be using it at all for the entire game. You can argue that some 1vXers crutch on cloak, and I'd agree, but claiming zerglings clutch on cloak is an inherently misinformed argument.
Your navel gazing opinion about cloak only being used by bad players also fails to acknowledge that cloak is a class defining ability that aids a certain playstyle. Sure you don't *need* cloak for a particular destro/resto build with some BIS set combination, but your short-sighted claims can easily destroy half a dozen different playstyles.
I could argue that good sorcs don't need streak, good templars don't need BOL (or cleanse), good DK's don't need wings, good wardens don't need shimmering shields. But all of these abilities are uniquely class defining abilities that people have specifically used to make
Cloak feel pretty balanced in BG's, and in cyrodil it scales really well in certain situations. With all that being said, I am not against cloak being rebalanced.
1) I don't mind having the cloak get the streak treatment; as long as you remove all counters that break/reveal cloak.
Streak while having a cost multiplier, guarantees that your character will move 22m or so. Guarentee my cloak isn't broken for 3 seconds I'm fine with the streak treatment.
2) I don't mind cloak getting the mist form treatment, granted you can guarantee that my cloak will not be broken for those 3 seconds. I love a good snare removal.
Keeping all the counters to cloak while significantly nerfing it a terrible balance decision. I highly doubt Kena (undisputably a great nightblade who uses cloak) would let that go through. Pick one or the other.
I never said Cloak is only used by bad players. Not once. I said nerfing it only nerfs bad players, because good players don’t need it to succeed. Your whole argument is a Strawman.
Cloak (stealth mechanic) needs a nerf. Period. At the same time it can be changed in such a way that it’s actually a buff for good players (snare removal). This is how the game should be balanced. Reward skill.
My apologies.
You said "Majority of good nightblades don't use cloak". Which would imply only a minority of good magblades use cloak. Which would imply most people using cloak are bad players (unless the minority of good players are a majority in using cloak). I take back the *only* part in my post above.
I strongly doubt the above claim, as I have nothing convincing me to believe it in my 4 years of magblade. (unless you are not talking about openworld). I'd love for you to name a better nightblade than the 3 of the ones I mentioned. All good mag nightblades I've met used cloak in openworld. In BG's, cloak is somewhat optional depending on your team. 1v1, cloak is subpar and almost no one uses it.
https://youtu.be/YuzJ2N2yg8w he doesn’t even main Magicka Nightblade. He mains a StamDK.
Maybe it’s a disparity between console and PC. But i can assure you on console (PS4 NA) that the top Magblades do not use cloak. It’s actually frowned upon.
https://youtu.be/9HjTCQMEcOg
Both videos, players running destro/resto with necropotence (you can see their max magicka go up) with 50k max magicka.
Second guy enjoys the no shield cap meta, first guy compensates his health a little to still utilize max shields. (additionally his dark cloak goes up).
Both builds not viable in no cp pvp. Health takes a huge hit, and their shields can see about a 12%-15% nerf due to the health cap. Dark cloak gets nerfed in no cp as well. Their healing/steadfast wards also go down. All in all, defense nerfed on 3 fronts when you go in no cp.
Even this build gets a hard nerf, as % based race modifiers are removed and these guys with 50k magicka will be hit the hardest.
Like I said, if you intend on curbing magblades on a very niche destro/resto build with certain BIS sets in CP, sure magblades will be fine.
Ultimately if cloak were to get the mist form treatment, or the streak treatment, it needs most if not all of its counters removed. Including detect pots and AOE's.
No. Keep the counters, give it the mist form treatment. Make the base ability grant snare removal and only the stealth one gets the mist treatment. Stealth mechanic as a whole is outrageous that it even exists.GeneralRoadkill wrote: »
Cloak (stealth mechanic) needs a nerf. Period.
Instead of crying Nerf! Why don’t you offer a viable solution. The only thing I’ve seen you provide is vague alternatives, like rebalancing in a way that buffs skilled play.
Care to elaborate? I want to emphasize that I am not completely against cloak changes, but simply stating something needs a nerf does not further any conversation or debate relating to the issue at hand.
And as someone else stated, removing it from the game would remove a defining ability for one of the original launch classes, as well as dozens of play styles that have varying degrees of reliance on cloak.
And you may also be correct about disparity between PC and PS4, but on PC - all of the best players I see use cloak and sometimes image in tandem, which make for some sick plays that honestly come down to the player outwitting several opponents simultaneously. Just because console casuals don’t approve of it doesn’t mean it needs to be nerfed or removed. It’s part of the game.
You believe that skilled players are busy winning campaigns; 99% of skilled players don’t care about the score, at all.usmcjdking wrote: »
Ultimately if cloak were to get the mist form treatment, or the streak treatment, it needs most if not all of its counters removed. Including detect pots and AOE's.
I agree. Remove all gap closers, have ball lightning last like 8 seconds again and absorb all projectiles and make everything dodgeable again.
Streak has one counter, if you gap close your enemy from hugging range.
I don't mind keeping mage-light, expert hunter or flares which will be essentially the same. Hugging your enemy? Magelight can reveal you.
Additionally with streak, even if one person does gap close you, it's only one person. If you are 1vXing, you will never have all X amount of people reach you with streak. Cloak on the other hand, one guy decides to spin2win/hurricane/dk armor/magelight and you get revealed for everyone.
Balance wise, if you want to make cloak like streak, no one will be able to cloak more than 3 times without exhausting their entire magicka pool. At that point, if you keep 3 dozen counters cloak has with all the AOE's, then its just useless altogether.
No. Keep the counters, give it the mist form treatment. Make the base ability grant snare removal and only the stealth one gets the mist treatment. Stealth mechanic as a whole is outrageous that it even exists.
You do realize your enemy can not break your mist form? That is one of the major reasons people use mist-form. If you are advocating for that, then I'm fine with the changes more or less. I don't think ZOS or Kena will be fine with them. But at this point no point in further argument. Highly unlikely they will convert a class defining ability into something that already exists in the game, available to everybody, all because someone is outraged at stealth gameplay.
Mist form isn’t the same as going stealth to remove snares, make all abilities targeting you at that moment miss, suppress all dots, and make you completely hidden from further attacks unless you’re pulled out.
Not even remotely the same. The skill should be buffed for Skilled players and nerfed for bad players. Ie a buff for Kena and the others you mentioned, but a nerf for a snipe spammer who cloaks everytime they’re looked at even though they’re 30m away from you.TequilaFire wrote: »UYou want to see nightblade? Let's make cloak just cleance 5 negative effects and give minor vitality for 3 sec
Sure. Nerfing cloak only nerfs bad players and bad players won’t make good use of a purge. That actually sounds like a great change since it removed cloak entirely, thanks for the suggestion!
Reading some of your responses and wanted to reply.
First of all, your argument that cloak is only used by bad players is rhetorical garbage. I've played with Kena, Zendran, VitaBelial. One of these three is probably the best magblade in the world and they all used cloak when I played with them.
The thing about cloak is that it only scales in 1vX (same with shade), so calling people who use cloak zergling only displays your lack of understanding of the magblade class. In a 1v1 cloak is already a subpar option and most magblades use something else. Whenever I have a half decent team in BG's, I immediately remove cloak as I know that I won't be using it at all for the entire game. You can argue that some 1vXers crutch on cloak, and I'd agree, but claiming zerglings clutch on cloak is an inherently misinformed argument.
Your navel gazing opinion about cloak only being used by bad players also fails to acknowledge that cloak is a class defining ability that aids a certain playstyle. Sure you don't *need* cloak for a particular destro/resto build with some BIS set combination, but your short-sighted claims can easily destroy half a dozen different playstyles.
I could argue that good sorcs don't need streak, good templars don't need BOL (or cleanse), good DK's don't need wings, good wardens don't need shimmering shields. But all of these abilities are uniquely class defining abilities that people have specifically used to make
Cloak feel pretty balanced in BG's, and in cyrodil it scales really well in certain situations. With all that being said, I am not against cloak being rebalanced.
1) I don't mind having the cloak get the streak treatment; as long as you remove all counters that break/reveal cloak.
Streak while having a cost multiplier, guarantees that your character will move 22m or so. Guarentee my cloak isn't broken for 3 seconds I'm fine with the streak treatment.
2) I don't mind cloak getting the mist form treatment, granted you can guarantee that my cloak will not be broken for those 3 seconds. I love a good snare removal.
Keeping all the counters to cloak while significantly nerfing it a terrible balance decision. I highly doubt Kena (undisputably a great nightblade who uses cloak) would let that go through. Pick one or the other.
I never said Cloak is only used by bad players. Not once. I said nerfing it only nerfs bad players, because good players don’t need it to succeed. Your whole argument is a Strawman.
Cloak (stealth mechanic) needs a nerf. Period. At the same time it can be changed in such a way that it’s actually a buff for good players (snare removal). This is how the game should be balanced. Reward skill.
My apologies.
You said "Majority of good nightblades don't use cloak". Which would imply only a minority of good magblades use cloak. Which would imply most people using cloak are bad players (unless the minority of good players are a majority in using cloak). I take back the *only* part in my post above.
I strongly doubt the above claim, as I have nothing convincing me to believe it in my 4 years of magblade. (unless you are not talking about openworld). I'd love for you to name a better nightblade than the 3 of the ones I mentioned. All good mag nightblades I've met used cloak in openworld. In BG's, cloak is somewhat optional depending on your team. 1v1, cloak is subpar and almost no one uses it.https://youtu.be/YuzJ2N2yg8w he doesn’t even main Magicka Nightblade. He mains a StamDK.
Maybe it’s a disparity between console and PC. But i can assure you on console (PS4 NA) that the top Magblades do not use cloak. It’s actually frowned upon.https://youtu.be/9HjTCQMEcOg
Both videos, players running destro/resto with necropotence (you can see their max magicka go up) with 50k max magicka.
Second guy enjoys the no shield cap meta, first guy compensates his health a little to still utilize max shields. (additionally his dark cloak goes up).
Both builds not viable in no cp pvp. Health takes a huge hit, and their shields can see about a 12%-15% nerf due to the health cap. Dark cloak gets nerfed in no cp as well. Their healing/steadfast wards also go down. All in all, defense nerfed on 3 fronts when you go in no cp.
Even this build gets a hard nerf, as % based race modifiers are removed and these guys with 50k magicka will be hit the hardest.
Like I said, if you intend on curbing magblades on a very niche destro/resto build with certain BIS sets in CP, sure magblades will be fine.
Ultimately if cloak were to get the mist form treatment, or the streak treatment, it needs most if not all of its counters removed. Including detect pots and AOE's.
No. Keep the counters, give it the mist form treatment. Make the base ability grant snare removal and only the stealth one gets the mist treatment. Stealth mechanic as a whole is outrageous that it even exists.GeneralRoadkill wrote: »
Cloak (stealth mechanic) needs a nerf. Period.
Instead of crying Nerf! Why don’t you offer a viable solution. The only thing I’ve seen you provide is vague alternatives, like rebalancing in a way that buffs skilled play.
Care to elaborate? I want to emphasize that I am not completely against cloak changes, but simply stating something needs a nerf does not further any conversation or debate relating to the issue at hand.
And as someone else stated, removing it from the game would remove a defining ability for one of the original launch classes, as well as dozens of play styles that have varying degrees of reliance on cloak.
And you may also be correct about disparity between PC and PS4, but on PC - all of the best players I see use cloak and sometimes image in tandem, which make for some sick plays that honestly come down to the player outwitting several opponents simultaneously. Just because console casuals don’t approve of it doesn’t mean it needs to be nerfed or removed. It’s part of the game.
You believe that skilled players are busy winning campaigns; 99% of skilled players don’t care about the score, at all.
I also addressed what skill is and defined it if you took further care to go back and read.
So what are they doing?
And once and for all define your version of "skill".
They’re looking for outnumbered fights. I’d estimate that 1% of the skilled player population even looks at the campaign score. Skill in this game PvP wise is the ability to fight multiple enemies solo and kill them, you can compare skill by:
a. How many people one kills in a 1vX
b. How many other people would be able to pull off that same 1vX
I.e if you kill 2 level 10s by yourself you wouldn’t really be skilled, because 99% of people in Cyrodiil would probably also be able to do it.
If you pull of a 1v5 and only 1% of the Cyrodiil population would also be able to pull it off, you’re a skilled player.
Edited by templesus on February 4, 2019 4:30AM0 -
Morality cannot be legislated, but behavior can be regulated. Judicial decrees may not change the heart, but they can restrain the heartless.
In honor of Dr. King and Black History Month I ask that people refrain from posting meaningless bashing and flaming and keep the discussion at hand concise and civil.
Most respectable thing I’ve seen on this thread, but let’s not keep such strictly to one month - but every month of every year.
I just want to tell one quick story and I’ll be done here.
From day one, I hated cloak. Hated everything about it. Refused to use it and hated anyone who did. I played for 3 years without ever even slotting cloak, let alone leveling it a single time. I only ever played 1 character from day 1, a nightblade.
Eventually, after changes and nerfs and buffs across the board, I was strong armed into using either cloak or image. I put around ~100 hours into each skill to give them both plentiful testing to see what fit best. I love them both now, because they both introduce a new element into the game - being able to outwit an opponent. The game was no longer a test of brute strength or button mashing, but of being able to not only predict an opponents move - but also anticipate what they might predict you of doing, and doing something completely unexpected. It opened my eyes, and my player skill soared (although no where near the best - I’m still terrible with respect to the players I look up to and I’m not afraid to admit that anymore.).
Should cloak be changed? If for the betterment of the game and health of pvp, yes. But a nerf is not the way. A simple change to mechanics, or even instead buffing counter mechanics like evil hunter or magelight (cuz I think they are garbage and NEED buffs). I like the ideas presented in this thread, from stocking basic detect pots in pvp vendors to giving it the streak/roll dodge treatment.
But please, for the betterment of the community and these forums (since they apparently suck compared to discord) let’s not condemn them, but rather be the change we want to see.
EDIT: I see your quotes, but you still only call stealth mechanic outrageous and complain that it even exists. You want it removed from the game and changed to be more like another skill that is already in the game. Nobody wants to play a game where we only have a dozen different skills, but hundred of different animations to make them appear unique when they all in fact do the same thing.Edited by GeneralRoadkill on February 4, 2019 4:34AM2 -
chris211✭✭✭✭GeneralRoadkill wrote: »You believe that skilled players are busy winning campaigns; 99% of skilled players don’t care about the score, at all.
I didn’t ask you to recap what I said, I asked you to provide a viable solution to the problem you do eagerly *** and cry about like a little child. You also speak as if you represent 99% of skilled players, which YOU DO NOT. You speak for yourself and what you see on PS4. PC is completely different because we aren’t stupid little console plebs and we can actually critically evaluate problems and come up with variable solutions.
If by skilled, you mean tower farmers then yes no one cares about score. If by playing by the game rules and pushing objectively, then the top 100 all care about winning - and I don’t see a single tower farmer in top 100 on PC. Can’t speak for you console casuals.
So remember, you do not speak for anybody here unless they post and agree with you. Quit acting like a self entitled ego maniac and contribute to the thread beyond “They run away from fights they know they can’t win, so therefore they need nerfs. Period.”
campaigns don't matter and winning them is meaningless0 -
templesus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GeneralRoadkill wrote: »Morality cannot be legislated, but behavior can be regulated. Judicial decrees may not change the heart, but they can restrain the heartless.
In honor of Dr. King and Black History Month I ask that people refrain from posting meaningless bashing and flaming and keep the discussion at hand concise and civil.
Most respectable thing I’ve seen on this thread, but let’s not keep such strictly to one month - but every month of every year.
I just want to tell one quick story and I’ll be done here.
From day one, I hated cloak. Hated everything about it. Refused to use it and hated anyone who did. I played for 3 years without ever even slotting cloak, let alone leveling it a single time. I only ever played 1 character from day 1, a nightblade.
Eventually, after changes and nerfs and buffs across the board, I was strong armed into using either cloak or image. I put around ~100 hours into each skill to give them both plentiful testing to see what fit best. I love them both now, because they both introduce a new element into the game - being able to outwit an opponent. The game was no longer a test of brute strength or button mashing, but of being able to not only predict an opponents move - but also anticipate what they might predict you of doing, and doing something completely unexpected. It opened my eyes, and my player skill soared (although no where near the best - I’m still terrible with respect to the players I look up to and I’m not afraid to admit that anymore.).
Should cloak be changed? If for the betterment of the game and health of pvp, yes. But a nerf is not the way. A simple change to mechanics, or even instead buffing counter mechanics like evil hunter or magelight (cuz I think they are garbage and NEED buffs). I like the ideas presented in this thread, from stocking basic detect pots in pvp vendors to giving it the streak/roll dodge treatment.
But please, for the betterment of the community and these forums (since they apparently suck compared to discord) let’s not condemn them, but rather be the change we want to see.
And i quoted a solid change for the ability above that I commented earlier in the day.0 -
GeneralRoadkill wrote: »Morality cannot be legislated, but behavior can be regulated. Judicial decrees may not change the heart, but they can restrain the heartless.
In honor of Dr. King and Black History Month I ask that people refrain from posting meaningless bashing and flaming and keep the discussion at hand concise and civil.
Most respectable thing I’ve seen on this thread, but let’s not keep such strictly to one month - but every month of every year.
I just want to tell one quick story and I’ll be done here.
From day one, I hated cloak. Hated everything about it. Refused to use it and hated anyone who did. I played for 3 years without ever even slotting cloak, let alone leveling it a single time. I only ever played 1 character from day 1, a nightblade.
Eventually, after changes and nerfs and buffs across the board, I was strong armed into using either cloak or image. I put around ~100 hours into each skill to give them both plentiful testing to see what fit best. I love them both now, because they both introduce a new element into the game - being able to outwit an opponent. The game was no longer a test of brute strength or button mashing, but of being able to not only predict an opponents move - but also anticipate what they might predict you of doing, and doing something completely unexpected. It opened my eyes, and my player skill soared (although no where near the best - I’m still terrible with respect to the players I look up to and I’m not afraid to admit that anymore.).
Should cloak be changed? If for the betterment of the game and health of pvp, yes. But a nerf is not the way. A simple change to mechanics, or even instead buffing counter mechanics like evil hunter or magelight (cuz I think they are garbage and NEED buffs). I like the ideas presented in this thread, from stocking basic detect pots in pvp vendors to giving it the streak/roll dodge treatment.
But please, for the betterment of the community and these forums (since they apparently suck compared to discord) let’s not condemn them, but rather be the change we want to see.
And i quoted a solid change for the ability above that I commented earlier in the day.
Please see my previous post edit0 -
templesus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GeneralRoadkill wrote: »GeneralRoadkill wrote: »Morality cannot be legislated, but behavior can be regulated. Judicial decrees may not change the heart, but they can restrain the heartless.
In honor of Dr. King and Black History Month I ask that people refrain from posting meaningless bashing and flaming and keep the discussion at hand concise and civil.
Most respectable thing I’ve seen on this thread, but let’s not keep such strictly to one month - but every month of every year.
I just want to tell one quick story and I’ll be done here.
From day one, I hated cloak. Hated everything about it. Refused to use it and hated anyone who did. I played for 3 years without ever even slotting cloak, let alone leveling it a single time. I only ever played 1 character from day 1, a nightblade.
Eventually, after changes and nerfs and buffs across the board, I was strong armed into using either cloak or image. I put around ~100 hours into each skill to give them both plentiful testing to see what fit best. I love them both now, because they both introduce a new element into the game - being able to outwit an opponent. The game was no longer a test of brute strength or button mashing, but of being able to not only predict an opponents move - but also anticipate what they might predict you of doing, and doing something completely unexpected. It opened my eyes, and my player skill soared (although no where near the best - I’m still terrible with respect to the players I look up to and I’m not afraid to admit that anymore.).
Should cloak be changed? If for the betterment of the game and health of pvp, yes. But a nerf is not the way. A simple change to mechanics, or even instead buffing counter mechanics like evil hunter or magelight (cuz I think they are garbage and NEED buffs). I like the ideas presented in this thread, from stocking basic detect pots in pvp vendors to giving it the streak/roll dodge treatment.
But please, for the betterment of the community and these forums (since they apparently suck compared to discord) let’s not condemn them, but rather be the change we want to see.
And i quoted a solid change for the ability above that I commented earlier in the day.
Please see my previous post edit
In response to it, I did not say remove the stealth mechanic from the game but rather give it the mist form treatment(no healing or magicka regen in it). At the same time it would also remove snares which would be a solid buff, especially for the healing morph.
As much as people on here want to write me off as a whiner or complainer I keep the classes in mind and don’t want them to be completely gutted, and as such tries to propose changes to keep them viable.Edited by templesus on February 4, 2019 4:40AM0 -
If y’all want stealth mechanic deleted from the game cuz you hate it and would rather have 2 mist form abilities, so be it. Let ZoS know and I’m sure they will make the right decision for the health of the game. We do not make final decisions, just debate and sometimes complain about them.
As for these forums, I steered clear of them for 5 years because of things like this and this will be my last post in this thread. I’m not arguing when I could be enjoying a game that I enjoy (for the moment.) If they decide to delete cloak, don’t worry - you’ll never see my again.
In B4 “bye have a great time, don’t come back.”2 -
templesus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GeneralRoadkill wrote: »If y’all want stealth mechanic deleted from the game cuz you hate it and would rather have 2 mist form abilities, so be it. Let ZoS know and I’m sure they will make the right decision for the health of the game. We do not make final decisions, just debate and sometimes complain about them.
As for these forums, I steered clear of them for 5 years because of things like this and this will be my last post in this thread. I’m not arguing when I could be enjoying a game that I enjoy (for the moment.) If they decide to delete cloak, don’t worry - you’ll never see my again.
In B4 “bye have a great time, don’t come back.”
Thank you for politely exiting rather then derailing the post.0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭AlienatedGoat wrote: »It’d do well to make endgame content more difficult and healer reliant by nerfing earthgore. I don’t think any actual endgame player has ever thought earthgore was healthy for Endgame PVE.
How the hell does nerfing a healer set make healers more viable for endgame? I guess if you only count vet trials, but healers are already used there sooooo that doesn't make sense.
Tank + 3 DPS with DPS monsters sets is by far better than randomly hoping earthgore procs. Hell Chudan for DPS with that logic because it just reduces and extra dmg you take to the point you don't *go* below 50 anyway.
Bogdan is *** in some Vet HM's btw. Its just too small and you have to move too much. I can't imagine it getting any use in something like Fang Lair HM.
March HM is another one - the hunt is probably where you would need it, and you just sorta have to hope it procs near a trap otherwise you just run right out of it anyway.
Not true. You can complete vHRC for instance with only 1 healer if the tank going bottom has 5 decent enough DPS and is wearing earthgore for the extra healing.
A set can literally replace a healer entirely. How does that come across as balanced to anybody?
Needs to be pointed out that vHRC is going to require 2 healers going forward with the new autowipe mechanic and inability to skip top boss.
Not only that, but Earthgore really isn't all that powerful. It's a 35s proc. Groups up top still regularly wipe even if a tank wears it.
Even in PvP, if you're anywhere near competent you can burst through an Earthgore proc 1v1. It's not powerful enough to negate a good burst setup. And in the sad event that you can't burst through, you've got a whole 35s to do better.
The only reason people are bitching about Earthgore is because of its use in zergs. That's a problem - not because of Earthgore, but because of zergs. It's impossible and irresponsible to try to balance the entire game around zergs. It's why Wheeler is looking into ways to force zergs to break apart.
In reality, this whining about the "OPness" of Earthgore has little to do with the set itself. The set is fine.
The fact that procs from the same sets stack is one half of the actual problem, and the fact that zergs can stack without any negative consequences is the other half.
The whining about the OPness of earthgore has everything to do with the set itself. You can be semi afk doing nothing and taking a beating and some other guy 20 meters away from you facing the wall who doesn't even know you are getting a beating will heal you from 0 to full because he happened to cast a hot on you 20 seconds ago. That's bad design and it has everything to do with the set itself.
Zergs of bad players just crutch on it the most because they can slap 3-4 of these effectively making the cooldown of the set irrelevant and the performance of the group will skyrocket for doing absolutely nothing and rewarding them for playing horribly.
3 -
Azurya✭✭✭✭✭
✭On the Class discords (bar Nightblades of course) this seems to be the general consensus that all of these need nerfs and its been communicated to the class reps several times and we have hopes ZOS will listen to them.
In light of recent posts however, I believe it necessary to compile this into the forums as well so ZOS can see that is is an issue here as well.
Currently the aforementioned abilities do nothing but promote unskilled gameplay. There is no need to get better at the game, or learn to use your class effectively, when you can:
1. Spam snipe from on top of keeps or in the back of zergs, which heal debuffs and constantly hits for 5k+ damage as well as desyncing the target.
2. Cloak away from any fight you don’t think you’ll win.
3. Not slot a heal for your group because you’re all wearing earthgore which will completely negate Ulti-dumps.
4. Spam one ability over and over that’s CCs groups and negates healing.
Not one of the four things requires an ounce of skill to operate in this game, and quite frankly, holds this game back in terms of skill:success ratio. Currently with these 4 specifically the game doesn’t reward you for being good and improving your skills, it actively rewards the opposite. This isn’t healthy for any game, period.
Now, I already know this post will get a lot of hate because generally the forums contain a surplus of players who fall into these demographics, however I know that this has been discussed thoroughly with class reps on the discord’s and regardless I have faith that changes will come. This is moreso a compilation of some major pain points from the discords for the forum.
@zos_ginabruno @zos_gilliam
EDIT**:
I am including the proposed solutions that were commented because a lot of people are missing them, and rather responding directly to the post asking for solutions.
Some changes proposed on the Templar discord:
Cloak is given the mist form treatment(no healing or Magicka Regen while cloaked). There’s absolutely no reason for it to function differently. Add snare immunity to base ability to compensate.
Snipe and Bow ult swap, with snipe now being an ultimate and bow ult being the Bow spammable as a channel similar to flurry. Drastically improves bow PvE DPS as well.
Timestop heal negation and snare removed but the animation is sped up to compensate and the CC breaking of it needs to be fixed. <<<Cost increase from Meeting notes is a good start.
Earthgore reworked as a group wide remove all negative effects when you heal an ally below 50%, healing component completely removed. Cooldown reduced to compensate.
why does this sound like "it kills me, so nerf/delete it from the game"?
we have this every update upcoming, so PLEASE @ZOS delete all NB from the game, the BOW-skillline, and Earthgore ofc.
I don´t call for nerfs on runecages, fragments, endless respamable AoEs, Siege and whatelse, that we will do after NB finally has quit the game, then we take on another class to get this going on.Edited by Azurya on February 4, 2019 8:14AM4 -
ZonasArch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@pieratsos
If they are using strategy like that, they aren't that bad. This is a very basic strategy, maybe, but it's still strategy. Playing to the strengths and weakness you have as a player and the tools available to you. That's not reward for playing horribly, that's reward for using the right kind of gear(monster set) and strats (forming groups) that covers your weaknesses. Which, btw, you can 100% do yourself.
Tough on you if you can't get over it. Means you, too, should try to find a set or a skill that'll help you overcome your weaknesses. Or you can do like me, and not try to 1vZergs. That. Simple.Edited by ZonasArch on February 4, 2019 8:17AM2 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Proc sets are strategy now? Good Lord.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.9 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Cause it kills you?
Cause it stops you from killing.
Sounds like you guys just don't like counters.
My thoughts. Seriously... If these things are to strong for OP maybe PvP is not for you mate? Maybe you should stick to PvE?Say no to Toxic Casuals!
I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.
"Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge1 -
ezio45✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I think cloak is fine, on the fence about earthgore
Heavy armor and snipe need to be nerfed into the ground0 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What if I kill 3 other people playing other class than me?
They will whine that my class is OP and will refuse to say that was my skill.
What if I kill 3 other people who play same class as me?
Since they can't blame other class they will blame skills they didn't used, sets they didn't used, lags, etc.
Let's push it further. 3 other people using same classes, same sets and skills.
They will say I am cheater.
In general bad players refuse to see their mistakes, they prefer to see someones success as a result of abusing "broken stuff". Then we have threads like this.
First question when you have problems with something should be:
How can I counter it, what are my options? The more options there is, the less broken stuff it is.
That's why bleeds and oblivion damage are broken because counters are very limited. That's why stun from sneak is broken because there is just one counter to it. That's why dodge roll is not broken because we have a lot of counters to it same as cloak. That's why bolt escape is not broken because there is a lot of counters. That's why snipe is not broken, because it has many counters.
Each time you die/can't kill someone is because you didn't countered him properly. Learn the counters, use them, have at least one vs most commonly used tactics, try to foresee their moves.
Once again. The more ccounters certain tactic has, the less OP it is. You just need use those counters.
Just because of cloak I run 2 methods of countering it, because of roll dodge I run 1 method of countering it, because of steel tornado I run 1 counter, because of snares and roots everywhere I run 1 counter. And guess what, none of these things gives me a lot of problems (maybe just steel tornado when spamed by whole groups).
You can't expect things to get nerfed because YOU REFUSE TO USE COUNTERS. It's like calling for nerfs of DK wings while all you need to do is to use nonprojectile skills.Say no to Toxic Casuals!
I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.
"Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge2 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@pieratsos
If they are using strategy like that, they aren't that bad. This is a very basic strategy, maybe, but it's still strategy. Playing to the strengths and weakness you have as a player and the tools available to you. That's not reward for playing horribly, that's reward for using the right kind of gear(monster set) and strats (forming groups) that covers your weaknesses. Which, btw, you can 100% do yourself.
Tough on you if you can't get over it. Means you, too, should try to find a set or a skill that'll help you overcome your weaknesses. Or you can do like me, and not try to 1vZergs. That. Simple.
Simply puting on a set and letting it play for you is strategy and good gameplay? You can't be possibly serious now. Even Mario kart has a higher skill ceiling than that.
I'm not gonna get in depth of what is considered skill and what isn't, but it's safe to say that the most basic quality you need to be considered even an average player, let alone good is to at least playing consciously. Meaning that you are at least aware of what is happening and what you are doing. Earthgore literally eliminates even that factor.
I can sit semi afk outside of a keep talking on the phone unconsciously pressing a button every now and then and save an entire group of also semi afk players doing nothing who got ambushed by a group of coordinated players who timed their ults at the right time. And what you are basically saying is that I outplayed that coordinated group while I was talking on the phone and not even knowing that the group of players I saved even existed let alone getting attacked. And that group of coordinated players should therefore go and fight someone else cause apparently being afk doing nothing is more strategic than you know, actually playing the game?
I hope you realize how dumb that sounds. Get into cyrodil probably requires more working brain cells than earthgore and thats not even a hyperbole.3 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭...
Cloak is given the mist form treatment(no healing or Magicka Regen while cloaked). There’s absolutely no reason for it to function differently. Add snare immunity to base ability to compensate...
There is one simple reason not to do this. Mist form can't be broken. It's 100% soft and hard cc immunity with 75% damage reduction on top. Only caster decides when it ends.
Cloak though can be broken by mosquito fart ending in just wasted resources. If you want to stop magicka recovery when cloaked what would be fair then:
cloak no longer can be broken by AoEs, only detection skills and potions reveal invisible enemies now (including the ones that used invisibility potion), you still receive full damage of aoe skills while cloaked.Say no to Toxic Casuals!
I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.
"Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge3 -
ZonasArch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@pieratsos
If they are using strategy like that, they aren't that bad. This is a very basic strategy, maybe, but it's still strategy. Playing to the strengths and weakness you have as a player and the tools available to you. That's not reward for playing horribly, that's reward for using the right kind of gear(monster set) and strats (forming groups) that covers your weaknesses. Which, btw, you can 100% do yourself.
Tough on you if you can't get over it. Means you, too, should try to find a set or a skill that'll help you overcome your weaknesses. Or you can do like me, and not try to 1vZergs. That. Simple.
Simply puting on a set and letting it play for you is strategy and good gameplay? You can't be possibly serious now. Even Mario kart has a higher skill ceiling than that.
I'm not gonna get in depth of what is considered skill and what isn't, but it's safe to say that the most basic quality you need to be considered even an average player, let alone good is to at least playing consciously. Meaning that you are at least aware of what is happening and what you are doing. Earthgore literally eliminates even that factor.
I can sit semi afk outside of a keep talking on the phone unconsciously pressing a button every now and then and save an entire group of also semi afk players doing nothing who got ambushed by a group of coordinated players who timed their ults at the right time. And what you are basically saying is that I outplayed that coordinated group while I was talking on the phone and not even knowing that the group of players I saved even existed let alone getting attacked. And that group of coordinated players should therefore go and fight someone else cause apparently being afk doing nothing is more strategic than you know, actually playing the game?
I hope you realize how dumb that sounds. Get into cyrodil probably requires more working brain cells than earthgore and thats not even a hyperbole.
You still failed to beat the guy you're claiming to be skilless, so you are, by absolutely all accounts, worse than they are. If their Zerg is huge and stupid OP because if OP set, assemble your Zerg, with pure damage sets and skilled players, and you will win.
Meanwhile, this zergling you couldn't kill will remain a better player than you.
And in case you *did* kill them, then you're the better one, PvP PVPed and everything worked as expected. So why complain?
Sounds like a severe case of the "i can't kill it, nerf it"s.
I'll tell you what... Get all the bad players you want, 24x24 balls groups matching in Cyro. Arm one with your average zergling gear, earthgore and all that. Arm the other group with whatever half decent damage set you want, say Zaan?, And go at it. 10/10 your Zaan group will vanish the earthgore one. It's not a matter of earthgore or not, it's a matter of playing the game and not the players. It's a valid winning strategy. Once the rule changes, they are done because they suck, but for now, if you wanna win, you'll have to play the game too. The rules and sets are the same for everyone. Get your own earthgore and go be at the top!
In time... This is exactly what happened multiple times in multiple fields if real life. Small example would be swimmers back in Beijing 2008 and their super swim suits. Not everyone had one and they got behind. Like... A LOT behind. Records were being toasted into a crispy barbecue. What happened? They changed the rules to even the odds for those with fewer resources. See the parallel? They had plenty of really good swimmers not making podium because some others that never performed that well had the suit. These are your zerglings playing the game... There was nothing in any rule book forbidding them to use suits. So they did. And the got better than actually skilled swimmers. And the actually skilled swimmers that jumped into the OP suit stuff, those shattered records. And doesn't matter how good you are... without the OP suit, you would not win. Same in PvP here.
I hope you understand my point beyond the poking-fun part. If the set is over performing, you gotta play to your strengths to could get it. How? Get in the mind set if your enemy.
One thing we can always trust zenidevs to do. They always bring OP stuff down eventually.1 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What most of the problems really boil down to is the divide between people that want to small scale and don't care about the campaign score and those that do actually want to play PvP based on AvAvA campaign in organized groups and win them.
It was hoped that battle grounds would appease the small scale crowd but the 4x4x4 format doesn't seem to fit the bill.
I wonder if a free for all match mode of 16 players where 1v16 could be played would ease the tension.
In that free for all match only basic weapon and class skills should be allowed.2 -
Y’all must’ve put some crack in the water cause I just can’t stop coming back to this thread.
How about we structure an actual debate here. Why should X be nerfed? What should be done about it? How would that change affect things outside of aforementioned subjects? Are their any other alternatives? To what perspective are we considering things? (ie; skillful gameplay, objective gameplay, specific game modes, etc.)
Example:
OP: I think cloak should be nerfed because it is the only thing in the game that allows a player to go invisible on command, which provides a huge advantage to a single class. Perhaps we should make every subsequent cast cost more than the last, like streak and roll dodge currently do?
Player2: “Well, it’s not the only source of invisibility as we have invisibility potions as well. Your proposed change would also only be a nerf to stamina night blades, as Magicka night blades already have a large pool to draw from. Have you considered a possible compromise - perhaps increase the cost but have cloak remove 2 negative effects?”
OP: Good point! I hadn’t considered that, and had completely forgotten such potions existed in the game!
-
Example 2:
OP: Cloak needs nerfed cause nightblades use it to run from fights they can’t win.
Player2: “That is not a fair reason to nerf something. Have you considered using magelight or evil hunter? You could also apply slows to them to keep them from running away, even when invisible.”
OP: Those skills suck
Player2: I agree, but we could also use detect potions, flare - or if all else fails, try some AOE skills like caltrops or arrow spray.
OP: Wow, I hadn’t considered those! Thanks for helping me get better at the game!
-
I think my work here is done (these kinds of things honestly feel like politics to me, and that’s why I should remove myself from them). Apologies for some of my previous posts that veered off the road, but come on now guys - it’s a game and look at what it does to us for us to treat one another so rudely. I can admit my faults and wrong doings, why can’t everyone? It helps us become stronger when we see our own weakness, and strive to correct it. There have been many a patch that I said “I quit” to, but after playing and giving them a chance, things have turned out for the better in most cases (the other cases are for another discussion). For this reason, I have faith that ZoS will do what is right for the health of the game, even if there are some bumps along the way.
P.S. We must also consider the mass variety of reasons people play the game for. Some enjoy 1vX, some have never lost a single duel but hate Cyrodiil, some people just like to be zerglings. We can’t focus the entire game around one group of players who only care for the 1vX when just as many, if not more players care more about leaderboard rankings or winning the campaign. Even if we don’t agree with them, some people just want to farm resources til the end of time and could care less about what campaign they do it on or who is winning. But in shunning the player who plays for different reasons than us, we are no better than the boy who cried Wolf!
-
"What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? Zin krif horvut se suleyk."
-Paarthurnax, Skyrim (2011)Edited by GeneralRoadkill on February 4, 2019 2:21PM0 -
Rust_in_Peace✭✭✭✭✭"Nerf Cloak"
This is a learn to play issue. Cloak is fine and has been nerfed into the ground many times over the years. It's the only skill NB have left that makes them different as a class.1 -
antihero727✭✭✭✭✭Rust_in_Peace wrote: »"Nerf Cloak"
This is a learn to play issue. Cloak is fine and has been nerfed into the ground many times over the years. It's the only skill NB have left that makes them different as a class.
There were many things that made sorc have a unique identity too. We see the care given on that case. Every class has their time to shine till the nerf hammer comes down. It’s about time since ever other class besides wardens have been nerfed to almost unplayable at one time or another.Veldrn-AD Magica Sorc
Bizarro Veldrn-AD Stam Sorc
Antiherro-AD Stam DK
Antihero-AD Magplar
Aww Crit-AD Magblade
AD Since PC beta
On A lag free vacation
for the near and far future3 -
Rust_in_Peace✭✭✭✭✭antihero727 wrote: »Rust_in_Peace wrote: »"Nerf Cloak"
This is a learn to play issue. Cloak is fine and has been nerfed into the ground many times over the years. It's the only skill NB have left that makes them different as a class.
There were many things that made sorc have a unique identity too. We see the care given on that case. Every class has their time to shine till the nerf hammer comes down. It’s about time since ever other class besides wardens have been nerfed to almost unplayable at one time or another.
"My class got nerfed so I want all classes to get the same treatment."
Tell me how this mentality is healthy for the game overall.0 -
FrankonPC✭✭✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »What most of the problems really boil down to is the divide between people that want to small scale and don't care about the campaign score and those that do actually want to play PvP based on AvAvA campaign in organized groups and win them.
It was hoped that battle grounds would appease the small scale crowd but the 4x4x4 format doesn't seem to fit the bill.
I wonder if a free for all match mode of 16 players where 1v16 could be played would ease the tension.
In that free for all match only basic weapon and class skills should be allowed.
There are plenty of small scale groups that want to contribute to the campaign, it's just harder to do. It's not like you can fight an outnumbered fight and siege a keep, and kill ads etc, so often times smaller groups are forced to fight in choke points or on resources, at keeps etc.
It's been discussed a lot but the current layout of cyrodiil strongly promotes a zerging play style where only the inner keeps really matter...and it just becomes red, blue and yellow wave where only the largest groups can strongly contribute. The numbers in this large group have increased over the years as well.
There's nothing wrong with having cyrodiil being big open warfare like that, but a large portion of the map is unused/ignored while others suffer from severe lag. I think it makes a lot of sense to incentivize other areas of the map so that "large groups" aren't 40-60 man balls of people, they're 24 mans going after objectives etc. I think the new relic will help with that, but more is probably needed. There would still be big group warfare I.e. at emp keeps etc, but overall performance would improve greatly imo. It's not easy to do though.2 -
TequilaFire✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »What most of the problems really boil down to is the divide between people that want to small scale and don't care about the campaign score and those that do actually want to play PvP based on AvAvA campaign in organized groups and win them.
It was hoped that battle grounds would appease the small scale crowd but the 4x4x4 format doesn't seem to fit the bill.
I wonder if a free for all match mode of 16 players where 1v16 could be played would ease the tension.
In that free for all match only basic weapon and class skills should be allowed.
There are plenty of small scale groups that want to contribute to the campaign, it's just harder to do. It's not like you can fight an outnumbered fight and siege a keep, and kill ads etc, so often times smaller groups are forced to fight in choke points or on resources, at keeps etc.
It's been discussed a lot but the current layout of cyrodiil strongly promotes a zerging play style where only the inner keeps really matter...and it just becomes red, blue and yellow wave where only the largest groups can strongly contribute. The numbers in this large group have increased over the years as well.
There's nothing wrong with having cyrodiil being big open warfare like that, but a large portion of the map is unused/ignored while others suffer from severe lag. I think it makes a lot of sense to incentivize other areas of the map so that "large groups" aren't 40-60 man balls of people, they're 24 mans going after objectives etc. I think the new relic will help with that, but more is probably needed. There would still be big group warfare I.e. at emp keeps etc, but overall performance would improve greatly imo. It's not easy to do though.
I have often thought why don't some small groups get organized and arrange bouts between their small groups in those wide open places away from the "zergs". Kind of like the dueling guys do. Hell I would be interested in that. Maybe ZOS could open a separate campaign with a max group size of 8 or something. I don't have a cure for 1vX execpt for the battle royale style.
I don't think it is possible to please everyone though, especially those that just like to grief.0 -
Haashhtaag✭✭✭✭✭
✭TequilaFire wrote: »TequilaFire wrote: »What most of the problems really boil down to is the divide between people that want to small scale and don't care about the campaign score and those that do actually want to play PvP based on AvAvA campaign in organized groups and win them.
It was hoped that battle grounds would appease the small scale crowd but the 4x4x4 format doesn't seem to fit the bill.
I wonder if a free for all match mode of 16 players where 1v16 could be played would ease the tension.
In that free for all match only basic weapon and class skills should be allowed.
There are plenty of small scale groups that want to contribute to the campaign, it's just harder to do. It's not like you can fight an outnumbered fight and siege a keep, and kill ads etc, so often times smaller groups are forced to fight in choke points or on resources, at keeps etc.
It's been discussed a lot but the current layout of cyrodiil strongly promotes a zerging play style where only the inner keeps really matter...and it just becomes red, blue and yellow wave where only the largest groups can strongly contribute. The numbers in this large group have increased over the years as well.
There's nothing wrong with having cyrodiil being big open warfare like that, but a large portion of the map is unused/ignored while others suffer from severe lag. I think it makes a lot of sense to incentivize other areas of the map so that "large groups" aren't 40-60 man balls of people, they're 24 mans going after objectives etc. I think the new relic will help with that, but more is probably needed. There would still be big group warfare I.e. at emp keeps etc, but overall performance would improve greatly imo. It's not easy to do though.
I have often thought why don't some small groups get organized and arrange bouts between their small groups in those wide open places away from the "zergs". Kind of like the dueling guys do. Hell I would be interested in that. Maybe ZOS could open a separate campaign with a max group size of 8 or something. I don't have a cure for 1vX execpt for the battle royale style.
I don't think it is possible to please everyone though, especially those that just like to grief.
They do lol1 -
FrankonPC✭✭✭✭✭TequilaFire wrote: »
I have often thought why don't some small groups get organized and arrange bouts between their small groups in those wide open places away from the "zergs". Kind of like the dueling guys do. .
Agreed. I think the best way to do it would to add it to their overland dueling stuff. Provide a prompt for the game type you're agreeing to 3 v 3, 4 v 4 etc. you have to be in a group to enable g v g etc. This would stop interference from campaigns, promote fun small scale etc. Or you could add it to battlegrounds.
I know a lot of groups that do engage in gvg stuff, and it is fun, it's just too few and far between.0 -
templesus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@pieratsos
If they are using strategy like that, they aren't that bad. This is a very basic strategy, maybe, but it's still strategy. Playing to the strengths and weakness you have as a player and the tools available to you. That's not reward for playing horribly, that's reward for using the right kind of gear(monster set) and strats (forming groups) that covers your weaknesses. Which, btw, you can 100% do yourself.
Tough on you if you can't get over it. Means you, too, should try to find a set or a skill that'll help you overcome your weaknesses. Or you can do like me, and not try to 1vZergs. That. Simple.
Simply puting on a set and letting it play for you is strategy and good gameplay? You can't be possibly serious now. Even Mario kart has a higher skill ceiling than that.
I'm not gonna get in depth of what is considered skill and what isn't, but it's safe to say that the most basic quality you need to be considered even an average player, let alone good is to at least playing consciously. Meaning that you are at least aware of what is happening and what you are doing. Earthgore literally eliminates even that factor.
I can sit semi afk outside of a keep talking on the phone unconsciously pressing a button every now and then and save an entire group of also semi afk players doing nothing who got ambushed by a group of coordinated players who timed their ults at the right time. And what you are basically saying is that I outplayed that coordinated group while I was talking on the phone and not even knowing that the group of players I saved even existed let alone getting attacked. And that group of coordinated players should therefore go and fight someone else cause apparently being afk doing nothing is more strategic than you know, actually playing the game?
I hope you realize how dumb that sounds. Get into cyrodil probably requires more working brain cells than earthgore and thats not even a hyperbole.
You still failed to beat the guy you're claiming to be skilless, so you are, by absolutely all accounts, worse than they are. If their Zerg is huge and stupid OP because if OP set, assemble your Zerg, with pure damage sets and skilled players, and you will win.
Meanwhile, this zergling you couldn't kill will remain a better player than you.
And in case you *did* kill them, then you're the better one, PvP PVPed and everything worked as expected. So why complain?
Sounds like a severe case of the "i can't kill it, nerf it"s.
I'll tell you what... Get all the bad players you want, 24x24 balls groups matching in Cyro. Arm one with your average zergling gear, earthgore and all that. Arm the other group with whatever half decent damage set you want, say Zaan?, And go at it. 10/10 your Zaan group will vanish the earthgore one. It's not a matter of earthgore or not, it's a matter of playing the game and not the players. It's a valid winning strategy. Once the rule changes, they are done because they suck, but for now, if you wanna win, you'll have to play the game too. The rules and sets are the same for everyone. Get your own earthgore and go be at the top!
In time... This is exactly what happened multiple times in multiple fields if real life. Small example would be swimmers back in Beijing 2008 and their super swim suits. Not everyone had one and they got behind. Like... A LOT behind. Records were being toasted into a crispy barbecue. What happened? They changed the rules to even the odds for those with fewer resources. See the parallel? They had plenty of really good swimmers not making podium because some others that never performed that well had the suit. These are your zerglings playing the game... There was nothing in any rule book forbidding them to use suits. So they did. And the got better than actually skilled swimmers. And the actually skilled swimmers that jumped into the OP suit stuff, those shattered records. And doesn't matter how good you are... without the OP suit, you would not win. Same in PvP here.
I hope you understand my point beyond the poking-fun part. If the set is over performing, you gotta play to your strengths to could get it. How? Get in the mind set if your enemy.
One thing we can always trust zenidevs to do. They always bring OP stuff down eventually.
“Playing to your strengths and weaknesses as a player is skill strategy” is this a joke? Are you really going to sit there and say that throwing on earthgore to carry your group because you don’t know how to heal yourself is skill?
Here’s an analogy for you: two basketball teams are playing a series of 7 games to win the Championship. Team A has been mopping the floor with Team B, so after losing 3 games Team B decided they’re going to go to the Mob and put a hit on Team A’s best player, because he’s they're primary weakness. Team B then wins every game from there on.
According to you, Team A is then absolutely, by all accounts, worse then Team B.
You realize how it’s completely asinine to say that just because it covered your weakness it’s immediately skill strategy regardless of the scenario? That is a logical fallacy known as False Cause and quite frankly it’s the worse one I’ve seen on here yet.Edited by templesus on February 4, 2019 3:35PM1 -
kitty79✭✭✭✭@templesus you took an arrow on the knee ?
snipe forever ^_^
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