Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21

TheRealPotoroo · January 2019

NobleMatias wrote: »

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

You didn't address rampant stupidity like Bosmers losing their stealth bonus. Yet again PVE gets screwed because of PVP.

Bosmer now have a mechanic that allows them to be the fastest resource harvesters in the game. Please for the love of god stop complaining about the Bosmer's stealth being taken away. they are given other special skills to make up, and for you to complain about 3m of detect just makes me laugh so damn much. The Bosmer race literally got a buff when comparing all the race changes [edit].

[edited for baiting]

No. I don't care about Bosmers being the "fastest resource harvesters in the game." I care about my Bosmer thief being screwed because of some PVP garbage that has nothing to do with the game I play. I play PVE. LEAVE MY BOSMER ALONE.

rei91 · January 2019

Posting here for the first time, have played TES 2-5, and not so long - ESO. Just wanted to say...
"Breton
Gain 2310 Spell Resistance (instead of 3960)
Nord
Spell Resistance by 3960"
Wait... What... just... WHAT?
Breton were known across all the TES series as having the strongest spell resist due to their ancestors, originated from Tamriel and not Atmora, being paired with ancient tamrielic elves. And now you're saying that sturdy, mostly melee, have-nothing-to-do-with-mer Nords have TWO TIMES the SPELL resistance than magically talented, buffed-from-being-hybrid Bretons? Really?
That's just ridiculous.
I'm not even sure that I want to trade it for more magicka sustain.

Other against-the-lore issues I have with this are already mentioned above (again, Argonian lose their poison resistance to Bosmer? WHAT?), and I'm not sure what to think about Dunmer losing their fire affinity. (Already went and gave my newborn dunmer DK girl a pair of knives instead of staff. I hope now she won't be miserable in solo PVE like that).

Sorry for my English being funny.

Deathlord92 · January 2019

rei91 wrote: »

Posting here for the first time, have played TES 2-5, and not so long - ESO. Just wanted to say...
"Breton
Gain 2310 Spell Resistance (instead of 3960)
Nord
Spell Resistance by 3960"
Wait... What... just... WHAT?
Breton were known across all the TES series as having the strongest spell resist due to their ancestors, originated from Tamriel and not Atmora, being paired with ancient tamrielic elves. And now you're saying that sturdy, mostly melee, have-nothing-to-do-with-mer Nords have TWO TIMES the SPELL resistance than magically talented, buffed-from-being-hybrid Bretons? Really?
That's just ridiculous.
I'm not even sure that I want to trade it for more magicka sustain.

Other against-the-lore issues I have with this are already mentioned above (again, Argonian lose their poison resistance to Bosmer? WHAT?), and I'm not sure what to think about Dunmer losing their fire affinity. (Already went and gave my newborn dunmer DK girl a pair of knives instead of staff. I hope now she won't be miserable in solo PVE like that).

Sorry for my English being funny.

This person knows please leave my Breton spell resistance alone zos lore wise nothing beats Breton spell resistance nothing 🙂

jlmurra2 · January 2019

Deathlord92 wrote: »

rei91 wrote: »

Posting here for the first time, have played TES 2-5, and not so long - ESO. Just wanted to say...
"Breton
Gain 2310 Spell Resistance (instead of 3960)
Nord
Spell Resistance by 3960"
Wait... What... just... WHAT?
Breton were known across all the TES series as having the strongest spell resist due to their ancestors, originated from Tamriel and not Atmora, being paired with ancient tamrielic elves. And now you're saying that sturdy, mostly melee, have-nothing-to-do-with-mer Nords have TWO TIMES the SPELL resistance than magically talented, buffed-from-being-hybrid Bretons? Really?
That's just ridiculous.
I'm not even sure that I want to trade it for more magicka sustain.

Other against-the-lore issues I have with this are already mentioned above (again, Argonian lose their poison resistance to Bosmer? WHAT?), and I'm not sure what to think about Dunmer losing their fire affinity. (Already went and gave my newborn dunmer DK girl a pair of knives instead of staff. I hope now she won't be miserable in solo PVE like that).

Sorry for my English being funny.

This person knows please leave my Breton spell resistance alone zos lore wise nothing beats Breton spell resistance nothing 🙂

Agreed. I posted about this last week. It does contradict Elder Scrolls lore. If the Nord's, and Breton's planned spell resistance were exchanged then all would be good, or simply increase the Breton spell resistance over the Nord's by another 2k, whichever balances better.

grizzly375 · January 2019

All of this would have been completely negated if ZOS had followed a simple, FAIR formula.

Race passive 1 - Lore specific bonus: one lore-based racial resistance NOT immunity (e.g. Argonian poison, Dunmer flame, Breton magicka, etc); one lore specific "boon" (e.g. Redguard food buff extension); PLUS player choice of ONE experience increase with ONE weapon or armor style (destro staff, dual wield, heavy armor, etc).

Racial passive 2 - Player choice of physical damage OR spell damage OR increased healing OR increased physical/magicka resistance. The amount of the increase would scale with the toon as it progressed to a cap determined by ZOS mathletes (seems that 258 is the current number)

Racial passive 3 - Player choice of increased stam OR mag OR health with the amount of the benefit increasing by level - again to 2000 in any of the three

Racial passive 4 - Player choice of increased stam OR health OR mag recovery/ OR spell / physical crit chance increase

As it stands now, the races are too pigeon holed into specific roles, and some of the racial buffs make no sense. For instance - RG sword and board XP bonus - but, honestly, how many RGs are rolling tanks?

A system like this would let the players REALLY play any race any way they want. Nord magsorc? Sure, just pick the morphs to fit that role. Dunmer healer? No problem, pick the morphs that fit your role.

There are plenty of "unique" factors about each of the races in lore that each race would still have a specific "feel" without being unduly punished if a player wants to do something "unique."

The new system doesn't break the old metas, it just rearranges them in ways that aren't necessarily lore friendly, or player base friendly.

Grymmoire · January 2019

grizzly375 wrote: »

All of this would have been completely negated if ZOS had followed a simple, FAIR formula.

*SNIP for brevity*

As it stands now, the races are too pigeon holed into specific roles, and some of the racial buffs make no sense. For instance - RG sword and board XP bonus - but, honestly, how many RGs are rolling tanks?

A system like this would let the players REALLY play any race any way they want. Nord magsorc? Sure, just pick the morphs to fit that role. Dunmer healer? No problem, pick the morphs that fit your role.

There are plenty of "unique" factors about each of the races in lore that each race would still have a specific "feel" without being unduly punished if a player wants to do something "unique."

The new system doesn't break the old metas, it just rearranges them in ways that aren't necessarily lore friendly, or player base friendly.

grizzly375 succinctly delineates almost exactly what I have stated.

IF freedom of play is a primary goal and not secondary to selective game lore, then a simplistic approach to balance is obviously more achievable by permitting any race to choose from categories of select passives, then let the choice of class; abilities; gear; weapons; enchantments; attribute distribution; monster sets: mundus stones and champion point distribution dictate uniqueness. This would empower players in gaining true freedom of game play style, eliminate pigeon-holed builds.

I encourage an even more simple approach to balance by removing passives all together and, adjust any base game stats (health, magicka and stamina) then allowing the above denoted system allow the creation of unique builds, with the possibility of reduced server load due to reduced mathematical game calculations.

So, again why work on shuffling passives and not a simpler, less complicated way forward? Just for lore flavor?

Kalle_Demos · January 2019

hakan wrote: »

Now looking at lore, dunmers never had flame damage just destruction bonus and lots of races had that. Weird enough they had spark ability at the start of the game in Skyrim.

And they also have bonuses with sneak and speed but they got no bonuses for those either. attack speed would be interesting.

Fire, ice and lighting are the elemental disciplines that define the Destruction School of Magic. Dunmer have always had an edge in Destruction and the only other race that matched them are the Altmer. Morrowind is known for it's volcanic activity and it's skies often filled with ember and ash. Dunmer reflect their home physically with their ashen skin and red eyes. The association with fire is obvious.

Kalle_Demos · January 2019

rei91 wrote: »

Posting here for the first time, have played TES 2-5, and not so long - ESO. Just wanted to say...
"Breton
Gain 2310 Spell Resistance (instead of 3960)
Nord
Spell Resistance by 3960"
Wait... What... just... WHAT?
Breton were known across all the TES series as having the strongest spell resist due to their ancestors, originated from Tamriel and not Atmora, being paired with ancient tamrielic elves. And now you're saying that sturdy, mostly melee, have-nothing-to-do-with-mer Nords have TWO TIMES the SPELL resistance than magically talented, buffed-from-being-hybrid Bretons? Really?
That's just ridiculous.
I'm not even sure that I want to trade it for more magicka sustain.

Other against-the-lore issues I have with this are already mentioned above (again, Argonian lose their poison resistance to Bosmer? WHAT?), and I'm not sure what to think about Dunmer losing their fire affinity. (Already went and gave my newborn dunmer DK girl a pair of knives instead of staff. I hope now she won't be miserable in solo PVE like that).

Sorry for my English being funny.

The Dunmer bonus to fire damage affected enchanted weapons, armor sets and Monster Masks. Sadly you are getting a nerf even without choosing the path of the staff as well.

Deathlord92 · January 2019

jlmurra2 wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

rei91 wrote: »

Posting here for the first time, have played TES 2-5, and not so long - ESO. Just wanted to say...
"Breton
Gain 2310 Spell Resistance (instead of 3960)
Nord
Spell Resistance by 3960"
Wait... What... just... WHAT?
Breton were known across all the TES series as having the strongest spell resist due to their ancestors, originated from Tamriel and not Atmora, being paired with ancient tamrielic elves. And now you're saying that sturdy, mostly melee, have-nothing-to-do-with-mer Nords have TWO TIMES the SPELL resistance than magically talented, buffed-from-being-hybrid Bretons? Really?
That's just ridiculous.
I'm not even sure that I want to trade it for more magicka sustain.

Other against-the-lore issues I have with this are already mentioned above (again, Argonian lose their poison resistance to Bosmer? WHAT?), and I'm not sure what to think about Dunmer losing their fire affinity. (Already went and gave my newborn dunmer DK girl a pair of knives instead of staff. I hope now she won't be miserable in solo PVE like that).

Sorry for my English being funny.

This person knows please leave my Breton spell resistance alone zos lore wise nothing beats Breton spell resistance nothing 🙂

Agreed. I posted about this last week. It does contradict Elder Scrolls lore. If the Nord's, and Breton's planned spell resistance were exchanged then all would be good, or simply increase the Breton spell resistance over the Nord's by another 2k, whichever balances better.

Agreed m8 I hope zos reads and think on all the positive feedback we are giving em I have faith Breton are masters of spell resistance always have been

Deathlord92 · January 2019

grizzly375 wrote: »

All of this would have been completely negated if ZOS had followed a simple, FAIR formula.

Race passive 1 - Lore specific bonus: one lore-based racial resistance NOT immunity (e.g. Argonian poison, Dunmer flame, Breton magicka, etc); one lore specific "boon" (e.g. Redguard food buff extension); PLUS player choice of ONE experience increase with ONE weapon or armor style (destro staff, dual wield, heavy armor, etc).

Racial passive 2 - Player choice of physical damage OR spell damage OR increased healing OR increased physical/magicka resistance. The amount of the increase would scale with the toon as it progressed to a cap determined by ZOS mathletes (seems that 258 is the current number)

Racial passive 3 - Player choice of increased stam OR mag OR health with the amount of the benefit increasing by level - again to 2000 in any of the three

Racial passive 4 - Player choice of increased stam OR health OR mag recovery/ OR spell / physical crit chance increase

As it stands now, the races are too pigeon holed into specific roles, and some of the racial buffs make no sense. For instance - RG sword and board XP bonus - but, honestly, how many RGs are rolling tanks?

A system like this would let the players REALLY play any race any way they want. Nord magsorc? Sure, just pick the morphs to fit that role. Dunmer healer? No problem, pick the morphs that fit your role.

There are plenty of "unique" factors about each of the races in lore that each race would still have a specific "feel" without being unduly punished if a player wants to do something "unique."

The new system doesn't break the old metas, it just rearranges them in ways that aren't necessarily lore friendly, or player base friendly.

Tho I do like this I am playing a Breton stamblade because I favour Breton and assassin Breton lore passive would be spell resistance and argonian poison disease resistance think in skyrim it was just disease resistance not all races have such strong lore passives but I’d certainly love to have strong stam passives for Breton always have just don’t want to meddle with the lore 🙂

hakan · January 2019

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

hakan wrote: »

Now looking at lore, dunmers never had flame damage just destruction bonus and lots of races had that. Weird enough they had spark ability at the start of the game in Skyrim.

And they also have bonuses with sneak and speed but they got no bonuses for those either. attack speed would be interesting.

Fire, ice and lighting are the elemental disciplines that define the Destruction School of Magic. Dunmer have always had an edge in Destruction and the only other race that matched them are the Altmer. Morrowind is known for it's volcanic activity and it's skies often filled with ember and ash. Dunmer reflect their home physically with their ashen skin and red eyes. The association with fire is obvious.

and in return they get hp, flame resist and burning status immunity plus less lava damage. never saw a fire booster ability. they had the most destro bonus so that spell damage in ruination passive should be around 330 ish imo.

and they had sneak, speed bonuses but they never got them. speed while sneaking would be a good bonus. but considering they dont care about the lore, i wont hold my breath.

Draxinusom · January 2019

So I want to finally write down my thoughts on how the Argonian's Elephant in the Room passive, resourceful, has been missvalued and caused unmerited and far too strong nerfs on Argonians across the board.

Luckily, we've got some great explanations for the motivation of some of these changes, so there's a basis to argument on. I'll be using some simple algebra and logic to show that the current game's Argonian racials have been overvalued - not only a bit but by a large amount - and this should be corrected going forwards. While the devs haven't precisely stated how each race or racial has been valued exactly, it isn't necessary to know those values when comparing different races between each other. You can think of it like a traditional weighing scale with two plates. The value of a race's racial are different weighs on one side. While each weigh is unknown to you (in how heavy it is, ie. how much it contributes) you can still experiment and take weighs off both sides and if you take away the same amount on each side, the scale will not move at all.

So let's get started. For my example to work, I need to compare another race to Argonians. I take Wood Elf here, but the method taken works with any other race.

Note that I work on the current game's racial, not the proposed changes.

Step 1: As a preparation step, I'll remove the "fluff" racial outright. Bonus to skill line experience gain is irrelevant once levelled and the extra bonus is so negligible that only the most ardent nitpicker would ever debate over which one is better.

Argonian

Wood Elf

Increases experience gain in Resto Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 50% Swimming Speed

Increases experience gain in Bow Skill Line by 15%, decreases fall damage taken by 10%

Resourceful: Gain 3% Max Magicka and restore 4620 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion

Y’ffre’s Endurance: 21% Stamina Recovery

Argonian Resistance: 9% Max Health and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance

Resist Affliction: 6% Max Stamina and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance

Quick to Mend: 5% Healing Done and Received

Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10%

Step 2: This is now the baseline for comparison between two races. Since it is claimed that Argonians are "too good" ie. have too much weigh, we just declare the right side, the Wood Elf, to be at nominal "1" base level and the Argonian racial's weight to be unknown, but larger (ie. more than 1). Basically the formula is x > 1 comparing left to right side. But now I replace the Argonian on the left side with an Argonian that is exactly the same, but lacks the resourceful passive. It becomes clear later on why I do this, so hang in there for now:

Argonian-without-recourceful

Wood Elf

Y’ffre’s Endurance: 21% Stamina Recovery

Argonian Resistance: 9% Max Health and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance

Resist Affliction: 6% Max Stamina and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance

Quick to Mend: 5% Healing Done and Received

Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10%

Step 3: Having removed the Resourceful passive, the formula now becomes x ?> 1, ie. maybe left side is still more valuable than the right side. This is what we want to find out. So now I start removing equal value racials (or parts of them). If they are of the same value, nothing changes the relation between the left and the right side. I start first with the resistances which is easy here with Wood Elf, since they are essentially the same:

Argonian-without-recourceful

Wood Elf

Y’ffre’s Endurance: 21% Stamina Recovery

Argonian Resistance: 9% Max Health and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance

Resist Affliction: 6% Max Stamina and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance

Quick to Mend: 5% Healing Done and Received

Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10%

Step 4: Now I just remove flat stats on both sides by the same amount, so the 9% Max Health minus 6% max stamina removes the racial on the right side and reduces the one on the left side to 3%:

Argonian-without-recourceful

Wood Elf

Y’ffre’s Endurance: 21% Stamina Recovery

Argonian Resistance: 3% Max Health

Quick to Mend: 5% Healing Done and Received

Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10%

Step 5: And here we are now. We need now to determine which side has more weigh to it (ie. which side has the more valuable racials). Is 3% Max Health and 5% Healing Done and Received more valuable than 21% Stamina recovery and reduced detection radius and 10% increased damage done in stealth? It's important to note that we removed Argonians' resourceful in step 2, so we really only compare a hypothetical Argonian-without-resourceful to Wood Elf. The question here is: left > right or left < right.
While it's not easy to compare effects that are not always "on", I think the sheer number advantage of an 21% multiplicator vs. a 3% wins the comparison here and declare that in this comparison, Wood Elf has the more valuable racials:

Argonian-without-recourceful

Wood Elf

Y’ffre’s Endurance: 21% Stamina Recovery

Argonian Resistance: 3% Max Health

Quick to Mend: 5% Healing Done and Received

Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10%

Step 6: So what did that give us? This gives us an ordering relation, left < right. Since in Step 2 we declared the right side to be normalized base value of 1 and only taking away equal weighted items left and right each, we now know that the result in step 5 means that Argonian-without-resourceful is less valuable than 1. This seemingly gets us nowhere as I took out the resourceful passive from the left side in Step 2 before starting the transformations. But no, we now add this gem, which is the lynchpin of it all: The developer comments to Argonian clearly states:

"Previously Argonians offered far too many stats and they were mathematically twice as good as some races."

So I just add the resourceful passive back into the left side again. Before re-adding resourceful back, we found that the entire racial's value is less than 1: x < 1. Now with above comment from the Developers, we know that Argonians have twice the mathematical stat weight than others. But if the entire statweight was less than 1 before readding, this means that the Resourceful passive itself carries a stat weight that must be larger than 1 ! (Mathematically before readding: x < 1, adding passive r back in + developers comment: x + r >= 2, where it follows that r must be greater than 1: -> r > 1).

What does that mean? It means that the single racial passive resourceful has the same valuation, the same weight as all Wood Elf racials together at once! This literally says that:

Resourceful: Gain 3% Max Magicka and restore 4620 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion

has the same value or even more value as:

Y’ffre’s Endurance: 21% Stamina Recovery
Resist Affliction: 6% Max Stamina and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance
Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10%

It should be plain obvious that this can't even be remotely true. But if this is not true, then Developer's comment that Argonians are mathematically twice as good as others cannot be true. And I firmly belive this wrong statement comes from a wrong valuation of the Argonians' resourceful passive, which is why I removed it initially before moving it back in in step 6.

Note that the developer's comment does not say versus which race Argonians are twice as good. I've done this comparison on paper with 5 other races and the result was always the same.

But wait, there's more! In fact if you just take the Developer's comment about Argonian passives being twice as strong as other races, leads to a very simple formula:
Argonians = 2 * otherRaces

So instead of nerfing racials, let's just buff them, shall we? But how? Very easy. Since the value has been given to us: 2. So if above formula were true, which is the equivalence of saying that the Developer's comment is true, then we just have to double the effect carrying values of another racial and claim that the Racials are now fair and equal. In case of Wood Elf, this would mean that this would be fair and equal:

Argonian

Wood Elf-doubled

Increases experience gain in Resto Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 50% Swimming Speed

Increases experience gain in Bow Skill Line by 15%, decreases fall damage taken by 10%

Resourceful: Gain 3% Max Magicka and restore 4620 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion

Y’ffre’s Endurance: 42% Stamina Recovery

Argonian Resistance: 9% Max Health and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance

Resist Affliction: 12% Max Stamina and 2970 Poison and Disease Resistance

Quick to Mend: 5% Healing Done and Received

Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 6m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 20%

or how about against Dark Elves?

Argonian

Dark Elf-doubled

Increases experience gain in Resto Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 50% Swimming Speed

Increases Experience gain in Destruction Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Generic Experience gain

Resourceful: Gain 3% Max Magicka and restore 4620 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion

Spellcharge: 18% Magicka Recovery

Argonian Resistance: 9% Max Health and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance

Gift of Magnus: 20% Max Magicka

Quick to Mend: 5% Healing Done and Received

Elemental Talent: 8% Fire/Shock/Ice damage

Again: We don't know against which race Argonians were valued twice as good, however this is easy to do and it's very easy to see that this is very far from being equal and balanced and nobody would take Argonian's racials over the other's racial.

Result:
This again shows that the Developer's statement about Argonians twice as good racials must be wrong. I strongly believe that the Resourceful passive has been massively overvalued and as a consequence above statement made. And also this led to an unfair and overreaching nerf of Argonian racials in this first pass.

Dear @ZOS_Gilliam please read this carefully and prior to the next pass, re-evaluate the weighing of the passives. I do agree that Resourceful is a strong one and could do with a nerf, however your assessment of it's value is exorbitant and led to unfair nerfing of Argonians in their entirety.

Thanks for reading!

NobleMatias · January 2019

For all the peeps wanting sneak back for the Bosmer. I hope you guys get it back, I genuinely hope you are able to get a little sneak bonus because that would mean you would lose that speed boost, and that makes me happy ; }. If you lose that speed boost then me and many others will have an easier time killing you in PVP. So zos please give back the sneak bonus to Bosmer and its players so both them and the many wanting to kill them in PVP can be happy. While your at it give the khajiit the speed boost so we can use it against them.

NobleMatias · January 2019

TheTraveler wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

Yea sure, you wanna play that game.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit

Suthay-raht are the kitties we have seen In almost every Elder Scrolls game, and I assume the ones in ESO, with no other racial difference other than skin change in the character creator, until now. This means I win right?

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ring_of_Khajiiti

A powerful ring just for them sneaky pests.

Besides that point I It would be pretty cool to bring in all the racial differences and play styles of all the different kitties. I mean their might someone out there wanting to play a common house cat right?

Let's talk about actual TES game-play mechanic tradition in addition to "lore" . The lore you are quoting was only introduced in later TES games.

I clearly showed you in an earlier post, how Bosmer were the only "thief" race in the first Elder Scrolls game. In the second game, Argonians were presented as being sneaky, and only in the second game does Kahjiit come in as thieves, but not due to stealth - due to their climbing ability. https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Races_(Daggerfall)

Khajiit in Arena: https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit_(Arena) As you can see, no sneaking or thievery, but the Bosmer most definitely are thieves:
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Bosmer_(Arena)

LOL those are not proper links to show what you are talking about. I am not sure If you have played those games but races did not get a boost to skills, this was all chosen by the player in the character creator at the start of the game. The only boost the races got were to base stats. The site you are on is not the best site to look for Elder Scrolls lore and mechanics, but this site is.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Daggerfall#Character_Information

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Races

get your facts straight before posting false information.

NobleMatias · January 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

You didn't address rampant stupidity like Bosmers losing their stealth bonus. Yet again PVE gets screwed because of PVP.

Bosmer now have a mechanic that allows them to be the fastest resource harvesters in the game. Please for the love of god stop complaining about the Bosmer's stealth being taken away. they are given other special skills to make up, and for you to complain about 3m of detect just makes me laugh so damn much. The Bosmer race literally got a buff when comparing all the race changes, quit crying.

Please for the love of God stop trying to dismiss other people's opinions because they have the temerity to not agree with your perfect all-knowing wisdom. (note, the description of your wisdom is sarcastic icymi)

The fact is, that despite saying "so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives," the devs in actually completely removed stealth bonus from the Bosmer entirely. The statement of the intent and the result do not match. We are completely within our rights to point this out. We are also within our rights to point out the substantial lore that says that Wood Elves are adept at stealth. We are within our rights to point out how this lore, and our experience with other games, informed our choices regarding this race and how we choose to play it. You do NOT get to dictate to us how we choose to play, how we choose to feel, or how we choose to express our deep dissatisfaction with the change as it currently stands.

Yes, we got some significant benefit from this change, as do the Khajiit. That's not the issue. The issue is that we are losing something that is core to how many people see the Bosmer as a race. It is like telling Redguards that they are no longer masters of weapons but magic instead.

Khajiit on the other hand have always been the sneakiest In every Elder Scrolls entry, hence why they still have their sneaky style.

Gotta go for a while, but had to ask: wanna bet? C'mon, you know you wanna.

Yea sure, you wanna play that game.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit

Suthay-raht are the kitties we have seen In almost every Elder Scrolls game, and I assume the ones in ESO, with no other racial difference other than skin change in the character creator, until now. This means I win right?

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ring_of_Khajiiti

A powerful ring just for them sneaky pests.

Besides that point I It would be pretty cool to bring in all the racial differences and play styles of all the different kitties. I mean their might someone out there wanting to play a common house cat right?

Sorry, but no. What race had the biggest boost in hiding in Morrowind and Oblivion? Bosmer. What race has as their most famous national epic the Meh Ayleidion (or The Thousand Uses of Hiding)? Bosmer. What race has the rite of theft, where villages and tribes would steal each other's most precious artifacts, without drawing either blood or attention? Bosmer.
Did you even play Morrowind or Oblivion? Khajiit didn't have hiding as their primary skill, it was a secondary skill with a +5; Bosmer got a +10. The only reason why Bosmer didn't have hiding as a primary skill in Skyrim was that each race got only one primary (which was bow for the Bosmer); and the Khajiits' previous primary, Acrobatics, no longer existed (well, in Oblivion they also had hand-to-hand as a primary, and it, too, was removed from Skyrim). Also, the Khajiit were digitigrade in Morrowind, so quite different in the character creator, which you would know if you'd played it. It was hard to miss, since Khajiit couldn't wear most shoes, iirc.

And for someone who is gaining lots of converts, you have an amazing low number of agrees on your posts. Almost as if no-one agreed with you.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Races

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Races

These are the skills from Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. These games are really the only games you can get the way races are, skill wise. The other games only have base stats to play off, character creation is a bit different in older titles. If you look at the skills, then yes Bosmer were a bit sneakier, but at the same time did not have security skill which was used for lock picking and thievery. In Skyrim the role switched, Khajiit were more sneaky and Bosmer had the lockpicking, but in every Elder Scrolls title, Bosmer had been the bow using master marksman, having that skill always at the top compared to other races.

The Suthay-raht Cats, are the epitome of the thief. They have acrobatics along with sneak, security, lockpicking, and short blade=knifes, In every title after Arena and Daggerfall.

Bosmer have some lore in regards to thievery but way more on Archery, and the Suthay-raht Khajiit have books, lore and their whole being skill wise is tailored to thievery, although I think lore wise a lot of Khajiit don't consider their mischievous behavior something as low as thievery, they just think finders keepers, lol.

Bosmer= best race with a bow, and have some thievery potential.

Suthay-raht Khajiit= best sub-race at stealing, period.

I only say the things I say because I want all races to be unique in the game world and at the same time balanced. I do wish that you get your sneak back, it would make life easier for both the players that fight Bosmer and the players that play Bosmer. I would also like ZOS to bring in all the sub races from the lore, people would have so much fun. But the recent changes to khajiit allready sort of bring that in the way they are kinda good at every role.

So I agree, give Bosmer back the small sneak bonus and take away that speed boost, it will make it better for me and you ; }.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit

"Rajhin
The Footpad / The Silent Walker
The thief-god of the Khajiiti, legend holds that Rajhin grew up in the Black Kiergo section of Senchal. In life, Rajhin was the most infamous burglar in Elsweyr's history, said to have stolen a tattoo from the neck of the Empress Kintyra as she slept. He is accredited with using the Ring of Khajiiti in his thievery, making the ring famous. After his death, Rajhin was inculcated among the Khajiit gods, to serve as an example to them of cleverness and adroit ability. His blessing is most often asked for before undertaking activities of a less-than-lawful nature."

Khakjiit have 3 deities/gods That are associated with cunning, cleverness, deceit, and thievery. You really cannot beat that.

Cundu_Ertur · January 2019

The speed bonus wasn't to compensate for the loss of sneak; it was to compensate for the loss of the bonus to damage out of stealth, which is how Khajiit ended up with a buff to health, stamina, and majicka.

I don't disagree with you on the stealthy lore and culture of the Khajiit. I don't think I've written anything to imply that, but if I did it was poorly worded. Obviously, the Khajiit have always had a stealthy, thievery-filled background; there's even more that you haven't referenced. So I have no problem with them getting a bonus, even a better bonus than before. I have no problem with them having the only racial pick-pocket buff (though I am certainly envious). At no point have I asked that they be nerfed, in any way. I'm just asking for the devs to honor what they said, that they were going to preserve stealth for both of the races that had it before in some way. They did so for the Khajiit, they did not for the Bosmer.

That said, I have to wonder how much of the movement bonus is actually going to survive testing.

edit to add: I do agree with you that UESP is a better resource than most.

DYSEQTA · January 2019

It is blatantly obvious that these changes do not promote freedom and play-as-you-want. In fact they do the exact opposite the railroad you into choosing certain races for certain roles.

Racial passives should be flavour only—providing little to no impact on core game mechanics at all. Nords being frost resistant, Dunmer being resistant to lava (should just be fire I think), Bosmer and Khajit being able to easily avoid detection, as they are products of environmental exposure and evolution. Argonians being able to swim faster is a great racial passive example.

It does not matter if most Orcs don't have a propensity for magic for example, some do; the exceptions to the rule. Our characters are supposed to embody that idea entirely. You do this yourselves with NPCs all over the place throughout the game. Shalidor is a Nord (well I think he is...) for instance, Abner Tharn an Imperial and both powerful mages.

When I heard that a rework of racial passives were coming I assumed you were going to leave the flavour ones that exist already, perhaps add some more, and let us then add character passives so we could shape our characters as we wanted. You know like play-how-you-want and all that.

I would love to be able to create a Nord character who chose to focus on magical studies rather than following what all his peers did and as such became a master of spell casting (I choose a magikca buff). I should be able to make an Altmer and chose a stamina or other weapon related buff to make her unique.

I want to be able to have a unique character that does what I want it to do, and well, regardless of racial preferences.

P.S. As others have already pointed to have ultimate flexibility in character creation damage for weapons should be buffed based on your rank in the linked skill line and not the resource pool they draw from. The resource pool should be just that; a measure of the amount of action that can be taken of that type not it's magnitude. That would go a mile toward making hybrid play viable whilst having no impact on specialists at all.

NobleMatias · January 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

The speed bonus wasn't to compensate for the loss of sneak; it was to compensate for the loss of the bonus to damage out of stealth, which is how Khajiit ended up with a buff to health, stamina, and majicka.

I don't disagree with you on the stealthy lore and culture of the Khajiit. I don't think I've written anything to imply that, but if I did it was poorly worded. Obviously, the Khajiit have always had a stealthy, thievery-filled background; there's even more that you haven't referenced. So I have no problem with them getting a bonus, even a better bonus than before. I have no problem with them having the only racial pick-pocket buff (though I am certainly envious). At no point have I asked that they be nerfed, in any way. I'm just asking for the devs to honor what they said, that they were going to preserve stealth for both of the races that had it before in some way. They did so for the Khajiit, they did not for the Bosmer.

That said, I have to wonder how much of the movement bonus is actually going to survive testing.

edit to add: I do agree with you that UESP is a better resource than most.

I am glad we can come to an agreement and that you have been humbled.

I think that the speed boost will stay and launch with the DLC. For some reason I think that Gill and the team have gone through the changes and stat crunching rigorously and determined that the speed stays before the pts launch happened. Some might not agree but I dont think ZOS will adhere to them. Hopefully I am wrong. I would not mind Bosmer getting a 2m stealth bonus while taking away 10% speed.

BlueRaven · January 2019

NobleMatias wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Races

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Races

These are the skills from Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. These games are really the only games you can get the way races are, skill wise. The other games only have base stats to play off, character creation is a bit different in older titles. If you look at the skills, then yes Bosmer were a bit sneakier, but at the same time did not have security skill which was used for lock picking and thievery. In Skyrim the role switched, Khajiit were more sneaky and Bosmer had the lockpicking, but in every Elder Scrolls title, Bosmer had been the bow using master marksman, having that skill always at the top compared to other races.

The Suthay-raht Cats, are the epitome of the thief. They have acrobatics along with sneak, security, lockpicking, and short blade=knifes, In every title after Arena and Daggerfall.

Bosmer have some lore in regards to thievery but way more on Archery, and the Suthay-raht Khajiit have books, lore and their whole being skill wise is tailored to thievery, although I think lore wise a lot of Khajiit don't consider their mischievous behavior something as low as thievery, they just think finders keepers, lol.

Bosmer= best race with a bow, and have some thievery potential.

Suthay-raht Khajiit= best sub-race at stealing, period.

I only say the things I say because I want all races to be unique in the game world and at the same time balanced. I do wish that you get your sneak back, it would make life easier for both the players that fight Bosmer and the players that play Bosmer. I would also like ZOS to bring in all the sub races from the lore, people would have so much fun. But the recent changes to khajiit allready sort of bring that in the way they are kinda good at every role.

So I agree, give Bosmer back the small sneak bonus and take away that speed boost, it will make it better for me and you ; }.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit

"Rajhin
The Footpad / The Silent Walker
The thief-god of the Khajiiti, legend holds that Rajhin grew up in the Black Kiergo section of Senchal. In life, Rajhin was the most infamous burglar in Elsweyr's history, said to have stolen a tattoo from the neck of the Empress Kintyra as she slept. He is accredited with using the Ring of Khajiiti in his thievery, making the ring famous. After his death, Rajhin was inculcated among the Khajiit gods, to serve as an example to them of cleverness and adroit ability. His blessing is most often asked for before undertaking activities of a less-than-lawful nature."

Khakjiit have 3 deities/gods That are associated with cunning, cleverness, deceit, and thievery. You really cannot beat that.

I don’t think they were argueing that the Kahjit should lose their stealth nor that they don’t have a long history of stealth. It’s just that bosmers have a history of stealth in lore as long as the kahjit does if not longer.

I nor do I think anyone wishing for the restoration of Bosmers stealth want Kahjit to lose theirs. (In fact personally, I would love it if Dunmer and even argonians got a bonus as well. Their history of assassins would suggest a stealth bonus.)

Multiple races are known to be good mages. (Altmer, Dunmer, Breton,..) so let them all have various bonuses to magic use.

Multiple races are known to have great warriors. (Nord, imperial, Redguard, orc...) so let them have various bonuses to melee combat.

Multiple races are known to have great theives and assassins. (Bosmer, Kahjit, Dunmer,...) so let them all have various bonuses to stealth.

This is not an either-or conversation.

Fantasy has a broad field of imagination, but fantasy characters tropes break down to warrior, rouge, healer, and spell caster. Everything else (shaman, Druid, archer, barbarian,...) are just variations of these tropes.

We have ten races, so each race needs to double (even triple) up on these tropes. Having only one race as the logical choice for rogues is bad. There should be two-three (minimum) good race choices for each trope. If these changes go through it will be reduced to one for rogue like characters.

Edit: made some light changes, added a word for clarity.

winterbornb14_ESO · January 2019

I want a refund for my imperial edition upgrade.

I purchased it only for the percentage health bonus so I could play the BlazePlar tank build. They already nerfed Blazing shield into the dirt and now removing the only thing left for that build just destroys it.

They can refund me in crowns and give me a free Race change and Name change for each toon.

[snip] needs to get a freeking clue!
[edited for bashing]

NobleMatias · January 2019

I am going to leave all I said about Bosmer and Khajiit at that, I really dont think discussion on either is warranted anymore. I will instead post all the changes I think should happen to the current race changes, only picking races I think should be changed slightly.

Altmer: leave as is, not really much to say about the all mighty Magic wielding god descendants.

Argonian: Real talk though Argonians needed a nerf to the potion passive. the developers said they were twice as good and this really is why, resource management and recovery. In all honesty it was not a big nerf at all, they in turn gained more magicka and only lost 1000 stat recovery via potions, and taking away the healing received made it where they were not the best at heal tanking because both healing received and healing done played off of each other. Argonian and Bosmer resistance I could care less about because they both kinda have game lore backing them with either way.

Bosmer: In all honesty the race bow passive is OP in my opinion. Some people might be angry they lost the sneak bonus but in reality they gained so much more. In favor of both parties that play and play against Bosmer I would give them 2m sneak back and take away 10% speed bonus from the roll dodge as it accumulates too much speed with other skills. Dems be my final words on the little people.

Breton: I rule in favor of lore and giving the Breton back a little bit more spell resistance, not as much as before but just a bit more and take away the recovery. Reasons being the Nord are now stronger in spell resistance I think lore states otherwise but ZOS is really hammering in that tanky Nord role.

Dunmer: In all honesty I like where the Dunmer are, they have always been the hybrid race lore wise and game wise. Damage stat wise they compare easily to the top magicka and stamina races, at the cost of recovery. But what people do not think about is that they have the ultimate potential to be the best race stat wise especially factoring in certain set bonuses, shackle breaker baby. Besides that point Dunmer can draw from both stat pools and can rely less on recovery, that is epic.

Imperial: Imperial is the race I think is lacking stats in a broad spectrum. Think about it, stats are not % based anymore which makes them less important in min maxing. Now we take the other races like Nord or Dunmer and compare, you can see that what an Imperial has is 1000 to 1400 health and 500 to 750 stamina over the other two, while a Nord has huge mitigation with ulti gen, and a Dunmer has weapon and spell damage. Red Diamond is indeed a cool skill but it cannot scale as good as weapon/spell damage and armor/spell mitigation. End game Imp will be a joke. I would propose they give some other stats or skills, or maybe just give them 500 more in both stam and health. The sword and board is more niche, but I dont mind it as most races have something that is tailored to lore and play style.

Khajiit: Leave as is, they are in a nice moon lit spot. Khajiit are balanced quite well and the stats are based primarily off of lore, regarding the moons Masser and Secunda, hence why they are adequate at all roles, warrior, mage, thief. Very cool indeed.

Nord: Very strong race indeed this patch. Mitigation will be king and with so much, they can now focus on boosting other stats very easily, plus they get a boost to ulti gen, Jesus, talk about power. Nord will be the go to tank, with Imps being an afterthought. The changes I would make to Nord are = giving them a bit less mitigation maybe 1000 to 1500 and giving back that spell resist to Breton, they can keep the ulti as its really cool addition. I think that will bring them in balance with others.

Orc: Really with orcs all i hear is people complaining that they have less base stats, but really they have a little of everything when it comes to a complete warrior. Healing and health proc, stamina proc, base stat gain, healing received, weapon damage and a nice speed boost to top it off. They really are an all around warrior. I would not make any changes because weapon damage can scale way more easily compared to base stats, if a change could be made I would say give them some spell resist because lore.

Redguard: These dudes are really the stamina kings able to hold their own for a very very long period of time. Really no change needed, as they are meant to show their endurance. Uniqueness comes from this fact, and their affinity for weapons is shown by how resource usage is lower for said weapon skills.

These are my thoughts on the matter. I have no racial bias, I think in a competitive multiplayer, and pvp intensive game, most mechanics should be at an even playing field. Id like to hear what everyone else thinks without bias in their hearts and minds. Free yourselves and show me what you got.

JobooAGS · January 2019

NobleMatias wrote: »

I am going to leave all I said about Bosmer and Khajiit at that, I really dont think discussion on either is warranted anymore. I will instead post all the changes I think should happen to the current race changes, only picking races I think should be changed slightly.

Altmer: leave as is, not really much to say about the all mighty Magic wielding god descendants.

Argonian: Real talk though Argonians needed a nerf to the potion passive. the developers said they were twice as good and this really is why, resource management and recovery. In all honesty it was not a big nerf at all, they in turn gained more magicka and only lost 1000 stat recovery via potions, and taking away the healing received made it where they were not the best at heal tanking because both healing received and healing done played off of each other. Argonian and Bosmer resistance I could care less about because they both kinda have game lore backing them with either way.

Bosmer: In all honesty the race bow passive is OP in my opinion. Some people might be angry they lost the sneak bonus but in reality they gained so much more. In favor of both parties that play and play against Bosmer I would give them 2m sneak back and take away 10% speed bonus from the roll dodge as it accumulates too much speed with other skills. Dems be my final words on the little people.

Breton: I rule in favor of lore and giving the Breton back a little bit more spell resistance, not as much as before but just a bit more and take away the recovery. Reasons being the Nord are now stronger in spell resistance I think lore states otherwise but ZOS is really hammering in that tanky Nord role.

Dunmer: In all honesty I like where the Dunmer are, they have always been the hybrid race lore wise and game wise. Damage stat wise they compare easily to the top magicka and stamina races, at the cost of recovery. But what people do not think about is that they have the ultimate potential to be the best race stat wise especially factoring in certain set bonuses, shackle breaker baby. Besides that point Dunmer can draw from both stat pools and can rely less on recovery, that is epic.

Imperial: Imperial is the race I think is lacking stats in a broad spectrum. Think about it, stats are not % based anymore which makes them less important in min maxing. Now we take the other races like Nord or Dunmer and compare, you can see that what an Imperial has is 1000 to 1400 health and 500 to 750 stamina over the other two, while a Nord has huge mitigation with ulti gen, and a Dunmer has weapon and spell damage. Red Diamond is indeed a cool skill but it cannot scale as good as weapon/spell damage and armor/spell mitigation. End game Imp will be a joke. I would propose they give some other stats or skills, or maybe just give them 500 more in both stam and health. The sword and board is more niche, but I dont mind it as most races have something that is tailored to lore and play style.

Khajiit: Leave as is, they are in a nice moon lit spot. Khajiit are balanced quite well and the stats are based primarily off of lore, regarding the moons Masser and Secunda, hence why they are adequate at all roles, warrior, mage, thief. Very cool indeed.

Nord: Very strong race indeed this patch. Mitigation will be king and with so much, they can now focus on boosting other stats very easily, plus they get a boost to ulti gen, Jesus, talk about power. Nord will be the go to tank, with Imps being an afterthought. The changes I would make to Nord are = giving them a bit less mitigation maybe 1000 to 1500 and giving back that spell resist to Breton, they can keep the ulti as its really cool addition. I think that will bring them in balance with others.

Orc: Really with orcs all i hear is people complaining that they have less base stats, but really they have a little of everything when it comes to a complete warrior. Healing and health proc, stamina proc, base stat gain, healing received, weapon damage and a nice speed boost to top it off. They really are an all around warrior. I would not make any changes because weapon damage can scale way more easily compared to base stats, if a change could be made I would say give them some spell resist because lore.

Redguard: These dudes are really the stamina kings able to hold their own for a very very long period of time. Really no change needed, as they are meant to show their endurance. Uniqueness comes from this fact, and their affinity for weapons is shown by how resource usage is lower for said weapon skills.

These are my thoughts on the matter. I have no racial bias, I think in a competitive multiplayer, and pvp intensive game, most mechanics should be at an even playing field. Id like to hear what everyone else thinks without bias in their hearts and minds. Free yourselves and show me what you got.

It feels like redguard is pigeon holed into classes without spammables such as dk and sorc, therefore going against what zos is trying to do (I mean, they took away dunmer's flame damage, which is arguablly pigeon holing them into magdk or single target mag dps (like nb) at the least). To fix this imo, replace the 8% weapon cost reduction to 3-4% all skills cost reduction.

Nord is overall fine as it is, no changes needed here.

According to many tests, if sustain is ignored (which is usually the case in high end raid guilds due to group support) dunmers are the strongest stam race, even better than pure stam races. Quite interesting, especially when khajiit seems to be overtaking altmer for nb and even templar under those same tests. Not sure what to think about this.

NobleMatias · January 2019

JobooAGS wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

I am going to leave all I said about Bosmer and Khajiit at that, I really dont think discussion on either is warranted anymore. I will instead post all the changes I think should happen to the current race changes, only picking races I think should be changed slightly.

Altmer: leave as is, not really much to say about the all mighty Magic wielding god descendants.

Argonian: Real talk though Argonians needed a nerf to the potion passive. the developers said they were twice as good and this really is why, resource management and recovery. In all honesty it was not a big nerf at all, they in turn gained more magicka and only lost 1000 stat recovery via potions, and taking away the healing received made it where they were not the best at heal tanking because both healing received and healing done played off of each other. Argonian and Bosmer resistance I could care less about because they both kinda have game lore backing them with either way.

Bosmer: In all honesty the race bow passive is OP in my opinion. Some people might be angry they lost the sneak bonus but in reality they gained so much more. In favor of both parties that play and play against Bosmer I would give them 2m sneak back and take away 10% speed bonus from the roll dodge as it accumulates too much speed with other skills. Dems be my final words on the little people.

Breton: I rule in favor of lore and giving the Breton back a little bit more spell resistance, not as much as before but just a bit more and take away the recovery. Reasons being the Nord are now stronger in spell resistance I think lore states otherwise but ZOS is really hammering in that tanky Nord role.

Dunmer: In all honesty I like where the Dunmer are, they have always been the hybrid race lore wise and game wise. Damage stat wise they compare easily to the top magicka and stamina races, at the cost of recovery. But what people do not think about is that they have the ultimate potential to be the best race stat wise especially factoring in certain set bonuses, shackle breaker baby. Besides that point Dunmer can draw from both stat pools and can rely less on recovery, that is epic.

Imperial: Imperial is the race I think is lacking stats in a broad spectrum. Think about it, stats are not % based anymore which makes them less important in min maxing. Now we take the other races like Nord or Dunmer and compare, you can see that what an Imperial has is 1000 to 1400 health and 500 to 750 stamina over the other two, while a Nord has huge mitigation with ulti gen, and a Dunmer has weapon and spell damage. Red Diamond is indeed a cool skill but it cannot scale as good as weapon/spell damage and armor/spell mitigation. End game Imp will be a joke. I would propose they give some other stats or skills, or maybe just give them 500 more in both stam and health. The sword and board is more niche, but I dont mind it as most races have something that is tailored to lore and play style.

Khajiit: Leave as is, they are in a nice moon lit spot. Khajiit are balanced quite well and the stats are based primarily off of lore, regarding the moons Masser and Secunda, hence why they are adequate at all roles, warrior, mage, thief. Very cool indeed.

Nord: Very strong race indeed this patch. Mitigation will be king and with so much, they can now focus on boosting other stats very easily, plus they get a boost to ulti gen, Jesus, talk about power. Nord will be the go to tank, with Imps being an afterthought. The changes I would make to Nord are = giving them a bit less mitigation maybe 1000 to 1500 and giving back that spell resist to Breton, they can keep the ulti as its really cool addition. I think that will bring them in balance with others.

Orc: Really with orcs all i hear is people complaining that they have less base stats, but really they have a little of everything when it comes to a complete warrior. Healing and health proc, stamina proc, base stat gain, healing received, weapon damage and a nice speed boost to top it off. They really are an all around warrior. I would not make any changes because weapon damage can scale way more easily compared to base stats, if a change could be made I would say give them some spell resist because lore.

Redguard: These dudes are really the stamina kings able to hold their own for a very very long period of time. Really no change needed, as they are meant to show their endurance. Uniqueness comes from this fact, and their affinity for weapons is shown by how resource usage is lower for said weapon skills.

These are my thoughts on the matter. I have no racial bias, I think in a competitive multiplayer, and pvp intensive game, most mechanics should be at an even playing field. Id like to hear what everyone else thinks without bias in their hearts and minds. Free yourselves and show me what you got.

It feels like redguard is pigeon holed into classes without spammables such as dk and sorc, therefore going against what zos is trying to do (I mean, they took away dunmer's flame damage, which is arguablly pigeon holing them into magdk or single target mag dps (like nb) at the least). To fix this imo, replace the 8% weapon cost reduction to 3-4% all skills cost reduction.

Nord is overall fine as it is, no changes needed here.

According to many tests, if sustain is ignored (which is usually the case in high end raid guilds due to group support) dunmers are the strongest stam race, even better than pure stam races. Quite interesting, especially when khajiit seems to be overtaking altmer for nb and even templar under those same tests. Not sure what to think about this.

Interesting observations. But wouldn't Redgaurd play more off of expensive spam weapon skills like steel tornado and power slam, this giving them more weapon affinity like stated in lore, and at the same time be able to use class skill as a way of boosting themselves? Redgaurd already have awesome sustain regardless of this do to Adrenaline Rush, giving them more in everything just makes them OP.

A dunmers flame damage has been replaced with even numbers both stam and mag. Honestly they can go either way or both ways, that is the caveat, they are a hybrid. The caveat with Redgaurd is that they have good sustain and melee weapon affinity.

You really do have to factor in all the different ways of playing, what about playing by yourself, or small scale, everything that envelopes both PVE and PVP. Recovery of stats really do matter and long engagements are key on a ton of builds.

I know the tests you are referring to, and I know the tests are based on meta gear and skill of which will not matter as much with the patch, you have to factor in other build styles now, and gear setups. Besides that point the numbers are really so dang close you basically cant compare without margin of error literally 2% difference with one gear and skill setup.

I understand your reasoning, but think outside the limited raid groups and factor in everything, lore, gear, skills, PVE and PVP.

NobleMatias · January 2019

Also I would like to state that a Redgaurd can use said 8% for any weapon skills, this includes staff magic skills.

JobooAGS · January 2019

NobleMatias wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

I am going to leave all I said about Bosmer and Khajiit at that, I really dont think discussion on either is warranted anymore. I will instead post all the changes I think should happen to the current race changes, only picking races I think should be changed slightly.

Altmer: leave as is, not really much to say about the all mighty Magic wielding god descendants.

Argonian: Real talk though Argonians needed a nerf to the potion passive. the developers said they were twice as good and this really is why, resource management and recovery. In all honesty it was not a big nerf at all, they in turn gained more magicka and only lost 1000 stat recovery via potions, and taking away the healing received made it where they were not the best at heal tanking because both healing received and healing done played off of each other. Argonian and Bosmer resistance I could care less about because they both kinda have game lore backing them with either way.

Bosmer: In all honesty the race bow passive is OP in my opinion. Some people might be angry they lost the sneak bonus but in reality they gained so much more. In favor of both parties that play and play against Bosmer I would give them 2m sneak back and take away 10% speed bonus from the roll dodge as it accumulates too much speed with other skills. Dems be my final words on the little people.

Breton: I rule in favor of lore and giving the Breton back a little bit more spell resistance, not as much as before but just a bit more and take away the recovery. Reasons being the Nord are now stronger in spell resistance I think lore states otherwise but ZOS is really hammering in that tanky Nord role.

Dunmer: In all honesty I like where the Dunmer are, they have always been the hybrid race lore wise and game wise. Damage stat wise they compare easily to the top magicka and stamina races, at the cost of recovery. But what people do not think about is that they have the ultimate potential to be the best race stat wise especially factoring in certain set bonuses, shackle breaker baby. Besides that point Dunmer can draw from both stat pools and can rely less on recovery, that is epic.

Imperial: Imperial is the race I think is lacking stats in a broad spectrum. Think about it, stats are not % based anymore which makes them less important in min maxing. Now we take the other races like Nord or Dunmer and compare, you can see that what an Imperial has is 1000 to 1400 health and 500 to 750 stamina over the other two, while a Nord has huge mitigation with ulti gen, and a Dunmer has weapon and spell damage. Red Diamond is indeed a cool skill but it cannot scale as good as weapon/spell damage and armor/spell mitigation. End game Imp will be a joke. I would propose they give some other stats or skills, or maybe just give them 500 more in both stam and health. The sword and board is more niche, but I dont mind it as most races have something that is tailored to lore and play style.

Khajiit: Leave as is, they are in a nice moon lit spot. Khajiit are balanced quite well and the stats are based primarily off of lore, regarding the moons Masser and Secunda, hence why they are adequate at all roles, warrior, mage, thief. Very cool indeed.

Nord: Very strong race indeed this patch. Mitigation will be king and with so much, they can now focus on boosting other stats very easily, plus they get a boost to ulti gen, Jesus, talk about power. Nord will be the go to tank, with Imps being an afterthought. The changes I would make to Nord are = giving them a bit less mitigation maybe 1000 to 1500 and giving back that spell resist to Breton, they can keep the ulti as its really cool addition. I think that will bring them in balance with others.

Orc: Really with orcs all i hear is people complaining that they have less base stats, but really they have a little of everything when it comes to a complete warrior. Healing and health proc, stamina proc, base stat gain, healing received, weapon damage and a nice speed boost to top it off. They really are an all around warrior. I would not make any changes because weapon damage can scale way more easily compared to base stats, if a change could be made I would say give them some spell resist because lore.

Redguard: These dudes are really the stamina kings able to hold their own for a very very long period of time. Really no change needed, as they are meant to show their endurance. Uniqueness comes from this fact, and their affinity for weapons is shown by how resource usage is lower for said weapon skills.

These are my thoughts on the matter. I have no racial bias, I think in a competitive multiplayer, and pvp intensive game, most mechanics should be at an even playing field. Id like to hear what everyone else thinks without bias in their hearts and minds. Free yourselves and show me what you got.

It feels like redguard is pigeon holed into classes without spammables such as dk and sorc, therefore going against what zos is trying to do (I mean, they took away dunmer's flame damage, which is arguablly pigeon holing them into magdk or single target mag dps (like nb) at the least). To fix this imo, replace the 8% weapon cost reduction to 3-4% all skills cost reduction.

Nord is overall fine as it is, no changes needed here.

According to many tests, if sustain is ignored (which is usually the case in high end raid guilds due to group support) dunmers are the strongest stam race, even better than pure stam races. Quite interesting, especially when khajiit seems to be overtaking altmer for nb and even templar under those same tests. Not sure what to think about this.

Interesting observations. But wouldn't Redgaurd play more off of expensive spam weapon skills like steel tornado and power slam, this giving them more weapon affinity like stated in lore, and at the same time be able to use class skill as a way of boosting themselves? Redgaurd already have awesome sustain regardless of this do to Adrenaline Rush, giving them more in everything just makes them OP.

A dunmers flame damage has been replaced with even numbers both stam and mag. Honestly they can go either way or both ways, that is the caveat, they are a hybrid. The caveat with Redgaurd is that they have good sustain and melee weapon affinity.

You really do have to factor in all the different ways of playing, what about playing by yourself, or small scale, everything that envelopes both PVE and PVP. Recovery of stats really do matter and long engagements are key on a ton of builds.

I know the tests you are referring to, and I know the tests are based on meta gear and skill of which will not matter as much with the patch, you have to factor in other build styles now, and gear setups. Besides that point the numbers are really so dang close you basically cant compare without margin of error literally 2% difference with one gear and skill setup.

I understand your reasoning, but think outside the limited raid groups and factor in everything, lore, gear, skills, PVE and PVP.

If you think about it, bosmer not only can easily surpass redguard's adrenline rush with just a stam regen multiplier of 1.47 (which is extremely easy to obtain, 2 ways are 5x medium, having a stam potion up & being a vampire, and simply having a stam potion up and killing something with a 2h ability) which also always ticks unless sprinting or blocking.

Idk altering the passive to 3-4% across everything vs 8% to spin2win, bleeds, rally etc will make them op

When both redguard and bosmer, with the same max stam in those same tests end up with bosmer as better than redguard in a pure parse, it can only mean that bosmer outsustained redguard

In previous elder scrolls games, redguard sustain was unmatched.

Cundu_Ertur · January 2019

NobleMatias wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

The speed bonus wasn't to compensate for the loss of sneak; it was to compensate for the loss of the bonus to damage out of stealth, which is how Khajiit ended up with a buff to health, stamina, and majicka.

I don't disagree with you on the stealthy lore and culture of the Khajiit. I don't think I've written anything to imply that, but if I did it was poorly worded. Obviously, the Khajiit have always had a stealthy, thievery-filled background; there's even more that you haven't referenced. So I have no problem with them getting a bonus, even a better bonus than before. I have no problem with them having the only racial pick-pocket buff (though I am certainly envious). At no point have I asked that they be nerfed, in any way. I'm just asking for the devs to honor what they said, that they were going to preserve stealth for both of the races that had it before in some way. They did so for the Khajiit, they did not for the Bosmer.

That said, I have to wonder how much of the movement bonus is actually going to survive testing.

edit to add: I do agree with you that UESP is a better resource than most.

I am glad we can come to an agreement and that you have been humbled.

rofl.
Since I had no dispute over the Khajiit I remain unhumble and unconquered. Undaunted, even.

NobleMatias wrote: »

I think that the speed boost will stay and launch with the DLC. For some reason I think that Gill and the team have gone through the changes and stat crunching rigorously and determined that the speed stays before the pts launch happened. Some might not agree but I dont think ZOS will adhere to them. Hopefully I am wrong. I would not mind Bosmer getting a 2m stealth bonus while taking away 10% speed.

I suspect the speed will go down as you suggest, but my hope is for a 3m hiding bonus; I suspect it will be a combination of hide and detect bonus, which will together add to 5m. Someone on the dev team really wanted that detection thing from the new name of the passive (just not anyone with a Bosmer thief). Time will tell.

As for your following post:

Altmer: Agree. High magic, but have to sweat sustain.

Argonian: Largely agree, but honestly I think Argonians have better claim to poison resistance than Bosmer. Traditionally, Argonians had high resistance to both, but had complete immunity to poison in Morrowind iirc. But in recent lore, Argonians were immune to the Spanish Knahatan flu. Maybe that was the thinking. But I'm not particularly adamant either way.

Bosmer: covered to death above.

Breton: Largely agree, but should swap magic resist values with the Nords.

Dunmer: here I'll disagree, but I think you may appreciate it: Move the Lava resistance to the resist flame passive (where it would fit nicely), and put the Orcs' sprint passive in the basic free passive for Dunmer. The Orcs shouldn't have it, and it would be a call back to the Dunmers' old affinity with the vanished skill of athletics. Yes, I know Argonians were top dog with that skill, but that was because it was the master skill for swimming (where the Argonians still shine).

Imperial. So much a pay-to-lose. I think ZOS is so afraid of being accused of PTW that they are erring too far in the other direction. These guys need some love. So I think we largely agree here. Well, maybe except for this: they shouldn't get block and bash bonuses though, Orcs should. The way things are now, they should come equipped with a soup-pot helmet and broom-handle sword.

Khajiit: Agree.

Nord: Largely agree but the ulti gen may need a bit of a tweak.

Orc: I think their stat buffs may need another look. Also, up above I took away their sprint bonus. Orcs don't need a sprint bonus, it doesn't fit their history or culture. They need the block and bash bonus that went to the Imperials, and the skill should be renamed steadfast warrior or resolute warrior. Orcs never need to run from battle, neither do they run towards it. Where the Orc is, the battle is there. This would reflect their bonus to Block in previous games.

Redguard: Agree.

NobleMatias · January 2019

JobooAGS wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

I am going to leave all I said about Bosmer and Khajiit at that, I really dont think discussion on either is warranted anymore. I will instead post all the changes I think should happen to the current race changes, only picking races I think should be changed slightly.

Altmer: leave as is, not really much to say about the all mighty Magic wielding god descendants.

Argonian: Real talk though Argonians needed a nerf to the potion passive. the developers said they were twice as good and this really is why, resource management and recovery. In all honesty it was not a big nerf at all, they in turn gained more magicka and only lost 1000 stat recovery via potions, and taking away the healing received made it where they were not the best at heal tanking because both healing received and healing done played off of each other. Argonian and Bosmer resistance I could care less about because they both kinda have game lore backing them with either way.

Bosmer: In all honesty the race bow passive is OP in my opinion. Some people might be angry they lost the sneak bonus but in reality they gained so much more. In favor of both parties that play and play against Bosmer I would give them 2m sneak back and take away 10% speed bonus from the roll dodge as it accumulates too much speed with other skills. Dems be my final words on the little people.

Breton: I rule in favor of lore and giving the Breton back a little bit more spell resistance, not as much as before but just a bit more and take away the recovery. Reasons being the Nord are now stronger in spell resistance I think lore states otherwise but ZOS is really hammering in that tanky Nord role.

Dunmer: In all honesty I like where the Dunmer are, they have always been the hybrid race lore wise and game wise. Damage stat wise they compare easily to the top magicka and stamina races, at the cost of recovery. But what people do not think about is that they have the ultimate potential to be the best race stat wise especially factoring in certain set bonuses, shackle breaker baby. Besides that point Dunmer can draw from both stat pools and can rely less on recovery, that is epic.

Imperial: Imperial is the race I think is lacking stats in a broad spectrum. Think about it, stats are not % based anymore which makes them less important in min maxing. Now we take the other races like Nord or Dunmer and compare, you can see that what an Imperial has is 1000 to 1400 health and 500 to 750 stamina over the other two, while a Nord has huge mitigation with ulti gen, and a Dunmer has weapon and spell damage. Red Diamond is indeed a cool skill but it cannot scale as good as weapon/spell damage and armor/spell mitigation. End game Imp will be a joke. I would propose they give some other stats or skills, or maybe just give them 500 more in both stam and health. The sword and board is more niche, but I dont mind it as most races have something that is tailored to lore and play style.

Khajiit: Leave as is, they are in a nice moon lit spot. Khajiit are balanced quite well and the stats are based primarily off of lore, regarding the moons Masser and Secunda, hence why they are adequate at all roles, warrior, mage, thief. Very cool indeed.

Nord: Very strong race indeed this patch. Mitigation will be king and with so much, they can now focus on boosting other stats very easily, plus they get a boost to ulti gen, Jesus, talk about power. Nord will be the go to tank, with Imps being an afterthought. The changes I would make to Nord are = giving them a bit less mitigation maybe 1000 to 1500 and giving back that spell resist to Breton, they can keep the ulti as its really cool addition. I think that will bring them in balance with others.

Orc: Really with orcs all i hear is people complaining that they have less base stats, but really they have a little of everything when it comes to a complete warrior. Healing and health proc, stamina proc, base stat gain, healing received, weapon damage and a nice speed boost to top it off. They really are an all around warrior. I would not make any changes because weapon damage can scale way more easily compared to base stats, if a change could be made I would say give them some spell resist because lore.

Redguard: These dudes are really the stamina kings able to hold their own for a very very long period of time. Really no change needed, as they are meant to show their endurance. Uniqueness comes from this fact, and their affinity for weapons is shown by how resource usage is lower for said weapon skills.

These are my thoughts on the matter. I have no racial bias, I think in a competitive multiplayer, and pvp intensive game, most mechanics should be at an even playing field. Id like to hear what everyone else thinks without bias in their hearts and minds. Free yourselves and show me what you got.

It feels like redguard is pigeon holed into classes without spammables such as dk and sorc, therefore going against what zos is trying to do (I mean, they took away dunmer's flame damage, which is arguablly pigeon holing them into magdk or single target mag dps (like nb) at the least). To fix this imo, replace the 8% weapon cost reduction to 3-4% all skills cost reduction.

Nord is overall fine as it is, no changes needed here.

According to many tests, if sustain is ignored (which is usually the case in high end raid guilds due to group support) dunmers are the strongest stam race, even better than pure stam races. Quite interesting, especially when khajiit seems to be overtaking altmer for nb and even templar under those same tests. Not sure what to think about this.

Interesting observations. But wouldn't Redgaurd play more off of expensive spam weapon skills like steel tornado and power slam, this giving them more weapon affinity like stated in lore, and at the same time be able to use class skill as a way of boosting themselves? Redgaurd already have awesome sustain regardless of this do to Adrenaline Rush, giving them more in everything just makes them OP.

A dunmers flame damage has been replaced with even numbers both stam and mag. Honestly they can go either way or both ways, that is the caveat, they are a hybrid. The caveat with Redgaurd is that they have good sustain and melee weapon affinity.

You really do have to factor in all the different ways of playing, what about playing by yourself, or small scale, everything that envelopes both PVE and PVP. Recovery of stats really do matter and long engagements are key on a ton of builds.

I know the tests you are referring to, and I know the tests are based on meta gear and skill of which will not matter as much with the patch, you have to factor in other build styles now, and gear setups. Besides that point the numbers are really so dang close you basically cant compare without margin of error literally 2% difference with one gear and skill setup.

I understand your reasoning, but think outside the limited raid groups and factor in everything, lore, gear, skills, PVE and PVP.

If you think about it, bosmer not only can easily surpass redguard's adrenline rush with just a stam regen multiplier of 1.47 (which is extremely easy to obtain, 2 ways are 5x medium, having a stam potion up & being a vampire, and simply having a stam potion up and killing something with a 2h ability) which also always ticks unless sprinting or blocking.

Idk altering the passive to 3-4% across everything vs 8% to spin2win, bleeds, rally etc will make them op

When both redguard and bosmer, with the same max stam in those same tests end up with bosmer as better than redguard in a pure parse, it can only mean that bosmer outsustained redguard

In previous elder scrolls games, redguard sustain was unmatched.

Now your saying you can surpass the stam recovery of a Redgaurd with certain play styles of a Bosmer, right? That means you would have to be willing to be a vamp, or run most medium, or use stam potions. All of this comes with a glaring deterrent, that your sacrificing other ways of playing and stats, and that not everyone wants to do or play this, and Redgaurd can easily do the same, or run different sets that make them better than the Bosmer.

I understand that a Bosmers regen is always active besides sprinting and blocking, but when do you need resource the most..... when your in combat. I am not sure if a Redgaurds Adrenaline Rush can be de-buffed like a Bosmers can. I have not tested, but I think that they do not get resource regen de-buffed with that racial proc skill.

I am not saying redgaurds need a buff or anything, but maybe you can come up with a more unique way of portraying a Redgaurds abilities?

Cundu_Ertur · January 2019

NobleMatias wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

I am going to leave all I said about Bosmer and Khajiit at that, I really dont think discussion on either is warranted anymore. I will instead post all the changes I think should happen to the current race changes, only picking races I think should be changed slightly.

Altmer: leave as is, not really much to say about the all mighty Magic wielding god descendants.

Argonian: Real talk though Argonians needed a nerf to the potion passive. the developers said they were twice as good and this really is why, resource management and recovery. In all honesty it was not a big nerf at all, they in turn gained more magicka and only lost 1000 stat recovery via potions, and taking away the healing received made it where they were not the best at heal tanking because both healing received and healing done played off of each other. Argonian and Bosmer resistance I could care less about because they both kinda have game lore backing them with either way.

Bosmer: In all honesty the race bow passive is OP in my opinion. Some people might be angry they lost the sneak bonus but in reality they gained so much more. In favor of both parties that play and play against Bosmer I would give them 2m sneak back and take away 10% speed bonus from the roll dodge as it accumulates too much speed with other skills. Dems be my final words on the little people.

Breton: I rule in favor of lore and giving the Breton back a little bit more spell resistance, not as much as before but just a bit more and take away the recovery. Reasons being the Nord are now stronger in spell resistance I think lore states otherwise but ZOS is really hammering in that tanky Nord role.

Dunmer: In all honesty I like where the Dunmer are, they have always been the hybrid race lore wise and game wise. Damage stat wise they compare easily to the top magicka and stamina races, at the cost of recovery. But what people do not think about is that they have the ultimate potential to be the best race stat wise especially factoring in certain set bonuses, shackle breaker baby. Besides that point Dunmer can draw from both stat pools and can rely less on recovery, that is epic.

Imperial: Imperial is the race I think is lacking stats in a broad spectrum. Think about it, stats are not % based anymore which makes them less important in min maxing. Now we take the other races like Nord or Dunmer and compare, you can see that what an Imperial has is 1000 to 1400 health and 500 to 750 stamina over the other two, while a Nord has huge mitigation with ulti gen, and a Dunmer has weapon and spell damage. Red Diamond is indeed a cool skill but it cannot scale as good as weapon/spell damage and armor/spell mitigation. End game Imp will be a joke. I would propose they give some other stats or skills, or maybe just give them 500 more in both stam and health. The sword and board is more niche, but I dont mind it as most races have something that is tailored to lore and play style.

Khajiit: Leave as is, they are in a nice moon lit spot. Khajiit are balanced quite well and the stats are based primarily off of lore, regarding the moons Masser and Secunda, hence why they are adequate at all roles, warrior, mage, thief. Very cool indeed.

Nord: Very strong race indeed this patch. Mitigation will be king and with so much, they can now focus on boosting other stats very easily, plus they get a boost to ulti gen, Jesus, talk about power. Nord will be the go to tank, with Imps being an afterthought. The changes I would make to Nord are = giving them a bit less mitigation maybe 1000 to 1500 and giving back that spell resist to Breton, they can keep the ulti as its really cool addition. I think that will bring them in balance with others.

Orc: Really with orcs all i hear is people complaining that they have less base stats, but really they have a little of everything when it comes to a complete warrior. Healing and health proc, stamina proc, base stat gain, healing received, weapon damage and a nice speed boost to top it off. They really are an all around warrior. I would not make any changes because weapon damage can scale way more easily compared to base stats, if a change could be made I would say give them some spell resist because lore.

Redguard: These dudes are really the stamina kings able to hold their own for a very very long period of time. Really no change needed, as they are meant to show their endurance. Uniqueness comes from this fact, and their affinity for weapons is shown by how resource usage is lower for said weapon skills.

These are my thoughts on the matter. I have no racial bias, I think in a competitive multiplayer, and pvp intensive game, most mechanics should be at an even playing field. Id like to hear what everyone else thinks without bias in their hearts and minds. Free yourselves and show me what you got.

It feels like redguard is pigeon holed into classes without spammables such as dk and sorc, therefore going against what zos is trying to do (I mean, they took away dunmer's flame damage, which is arguablly pigeon holing them into magdk or single target mag dps (like nb) at the least). To fix this imo, replace the 8% weapon cost reduction to 3-4% all skills cost reduction.

Nord is overall fine as it is, no changes needed here.

According to many tests, if sustain is ignored (which is usually the case in high end raid guilds due to group support) dunmers are the strongest stam race, even better than pure stam races. Quite interesting, especially when khajiit seems to be overtaking altmer for nb and even templar under those same tests. Not sure what to think about this.

Interesting observations. But wouldn't Redgaurd play more off of expensive spam weapon skills like steel tornado and power slam, this giving them more weapon affinity like stated in lore, and at the same time be able to use class skill as a way of boosting themselves? Redgaurd already have awesome sustain regardless of this do to Adrenaline Rush, giving them more in everything just makes them OP.

A dunmers flame damage has been replaced with even numbers both stam and mag. Honestly they can go either way or both ways, that is the caveat, they are a hybrid. The caveat with Redgaurd is that they have good sustain and melee weapon affinity.

You really do have to factor in all the different ways of playing, what about playing by yourself, or small scale, everything that envelopes both PVE and PVP. Recovery of stats really do matter and long engagements are key on a ton of builds.

I know the tests you are referring to, and I know the tests are based on meta gear and skill of which will not matter as much with the patch, you have to factor in other build styles now, and gear setups. Besides that point the numbers are really so dang close you basically cant compare without margin of error literally 2% difference with one gear and skill setup.

I understand your reasoning, but think outside the limited raid groups and factor in everything, lore, gear, skills, PVE and PVP.

If you think about it, bosmer not only can easily surpass redguard's adrenline rush with just a stam regen multiplier of 1.47 (which is extremely easy to obtain, 2 ways are 5x medium, having a stam potion up & being a vampire, and simply having a stam potion up and killing something with a 2h ability) which also always ticks unless sprinting or blocking.

Idk altering the passive to 3-4% across everything vs 8% to spin2win, bleeds, rally etc will make them op

When both redguard and bosmer, with the same max stam in those same tests end up with bosmer as better than redguard in a pure parse, it can only mean that bosmer outsustained redguard

In previous elder scrolls games, redguard sustain was unmatched.

Now your saying you can surpass the stam recovery of a Redgaurd with certain play styles of a Bosmer, right? That means you would have to be willing to be a vamp, or run most medium, or use stam potions. All of this comes with a glaring deterrent, that your sacrificing other ways of playing and stats, and that not everyone wants to do or play this, and Redgaurd can easily do the same, or run different sets that make them better than the Bosmer.

I understand that a Bosmers regen is always active besides sprinting and blocking, but when do you need resource the most..... when your in combat. I am not sure if a Redgaurds Adrenaline Rush can be de-buffed like a Bosmers can. I have not tested, but I think that they do not get resource regen de-buffed with that racial proc skill.

I am not saying redgaurds need a buff or anything, but maybe you can come up with a more unique way of portraying a Redgaurds abilities?

I thought that theory-crafting and practical testing showed that in combat Redguard sustain was better than Bosmer. There was a thread in the PTS section, if I recall correctly, but I can't find it now. It's had graphs, and pictures and numbers and it was terribly exciting. If the complaint is that Reguards are getting shoe-horned into being weapons-using stam(whatevers), then, yeah. That's Redguards. Even their magic is centered around weapons. And they have curved swords.
Curved.
Swords.

edit to add: (this is more to the post you were replying to Mattias, not rebuking you)

edit again to add: No Bosmer would be a vampire (or werewolf), it violates the Pact. It's probably the Ohmes subtype of the Khajiit. I don't think I've seen a 2h wielding Bosmer before. Maybe once. Bow/bow, bow/dual daggers, even bow/staff seems to be more common.

JobooAGS · January 2019

NobleMatias wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

I am going to leave all I said about Bosmer and Khajiit at that, I really dont think discussion on either is warranted anymore. I will instead post all the changes I think should happen to the current race changes, only picking races I think should be changed slightly.

Altmer: leave as is, not really much to say about the all mighty Magic wielding god descendants.

Argonian: Real talk though Argonians needed a nerf to the potion passive. the developers said they were twice as good and this really is why, resource management and recovery. In all honesty it was not a big nerf at all, they in turn gained more magicka and only lost 1000 stat recovery via potions, and taking away the healing received made it where they were not the best at heal tanking because both healing received and healing done played off of each other. Argonian and Bosmer resistance I could care less about because they both kinda have game lore backing them with either way.

Bosmer: In all honesty the race bow passive is OP in my opinion. Some people might be angry they lost the sneak bonus but in reality they gained so much more. In favor of both parties that play and play against Bosmer I would give them 2m sneak back and take away 10% speed bonus from the roll dodge as it accumulates too much speed with other skills. Dems be my final words on the little people.

Breton: I rule in favor of lore and giving the Breton back a little bit more spell resistance, not as much as before but just a bit more and take away the recovery. Reasons being the Nord are now stronger in spell resistance I think lore states otherwise but ZOS is really hammering in that tanky Nord role.

Dunmer: In all honesty I like where the Dunmer are, they have always been the hybrid race lore wise and game wise. Damage stat wise they compare easily to the top magicka and stamina races, at the cost of recovery. But what people do not think about is that they have the ultimate potential to be the best race stat wise especially factoring in certain set bonuses, shackle breaker baby. Besides that point Dunmer can draw from both stat pools and can rely less on recovery, that is epic.

Imperial: Imperial is the race I think is lacking stats in a broad spectrum. Think about it, stats are not % based anymore which makes them less important in min maxing. Now we take the other races like Nord or Dunmer and compare, you can see that what an Imperial has is 1000 to 1400 health and 500 to 750 stamina over the other two, while a Nord has huge mitigation with ulti gen, and a Dunmer has weapon and spell damage. Red Diamond is indeed a cool skill but it cannot scale as good as weapon/spell damage and armor/spell mitigation. End game Imp will be a joke. I would propose they give some other stats or skills, or maybe just give them 500 more in both stam and health. The sword and board is more niche, but I dont mind it as most races have something that is tailored to lore and play style.

Khajiit: Leave as is, they are in a nice moon lit spot. Khajiit are balanced quite well and the stats are based primarily off of lore, regarding the moons Masser and Secunda, hence why they are adequate at all roles, warrior, mage, thief. Very cool indeed.

Nord: Very strong race indeed this patch. Mitigation will be king and with so much, they can now focus on boosting other stats very easily, plus they get a boost to ulti gen, Jesus, talk about power. Nord will be the go to tank, with Imps being an afterthought. The changes I would make to Nord are = giving them a bit less mitigation maybe 1000 to 1500 and giving back that spell resist to Breton, they can keep the ulti as its really cool addition. I think that will bring them in balance with others.

Orc: Really with orcs all i hear is people complaining that they have less base stats, but really they have a little of everything when it comes to a complete warrior. Healing and health proc, stamina proc, base stat gain, healing received, weapon damage and a nice speed boost to top it off. They really are an all around warrior. I would not make any changes because weapon damage can scale way more easily compared to base stats, if a change could be made I would say give them some spell resist because lore.

Redguard: These dudes are really the stamina kings able to hold their own for a very very long period of time. Really no change needed, as they are meant to show their endurance. Uniqueness comes from this fact, and their affinity for weapons is shown by how resource usage is lower for said weapon skills.

These are my thoughts on the matter. I have no racial bias, I think in a competitive multiplayer, and pvp intensive game, most mechanics should be at an even playing field. Id like to hear what everyone else thinks without bias in their hearts and minds. Free yourselves and show me what you got.

It feels like redguard is pigeon holed into classes without spammables such as dk and sorc, therefore going against what zos is trying to do (I mean, they took away dunmer's flame damage, which is arguablly pigeon holing them into magdk or single target mag dps (like nb) at the least). To fix this imo, replace the 8% weapon cost reduction to 3-4% all skills cost reduction.

Nord is overall fine as it is, no changes needed here.

According to many tests, if sustain is ignored (which is usually the case in high end raid guilds due to group support) dunmers are the strongest stam race, even better than pure stam races. Quite interesting, especially when khajiit seems to be overtaking altmer for nb and even templar under those same tests. Not sure what to think about this.

Interesting observations. But wouldn't Redgaurd play more off of expensive spam weapon skills like steel tornado and power slam, this giving them more weapon affinity like stated in lore, and at the same time be able to use class skill as a way of boosting themselves? Redgaurd already have awesome sustain regardless of this do to Adrenaline Rush, giving them more in everything just makes them OP.

A dunmers flame damage has been replaced with even numbers both stam and mag. Honestly they can go either way or both ways, that is the caveat, they are a hybrid. The caveat with Redgaurd is that they have good sustain and melee weapon affinity.

You really do have to factor in all the different ways of playing, what about playing by yourself, or small scale, everything that envelopes both PVE and PVP. Recovery of stats really do matter and long engagements are key on a ton of builds.

I know the tests you are referring to, and I know the tests are based on meta gear and skill of which will not matter as much with the patch, you have to factor in other build styles now, and gear setups. Besides that point the numbers are really so dang close you basically cant compare without margin of error literally 2% difference with one gear and skill setup.

I understand your reasoning, but think outside the limited raid groups and factor in everything, lore, gear, skills, PVE and PVP.

If you think about it, bosmer not only can easily surpass redguard's adrenline rush with just a stam regen multiplier of 1.47 (which is extremely easy to obtain, 2 ways are 5x medium, having a stam potion up & being a vampire, and simply having a stam potion up and killing something with a 2h ability) which also always ticks unless sprinting or blocking.

Idk altering the passive to 3-4% across everything vs 8% to spin2win, bleeds, rally etc will make them op

When both redguard and bosmer, with the same max stam in those same tests end up with bosmer as better than redguard in a pure parse, it can only mean that bosmer outsustained redguard

In previous elder scrolls games, redguard sustain was unmatched.

Now your saying you can surpass the stam recovery of a Redgaurd with certain play styles of a Bosmer, right? That means you would have to be willing to be a vamp, or run most medium, or use stam potions. All of this comes with a glaring deterrent, that your sacrificing other ways of playing and stats, and that not everyone wants to do or play this, and Redgaurd can easily do the same, or run different sets that make them better than the Bosmer.

I understand that a Bosmers regen is always active besides sprinting and blocking, but when do you need resource the most..... when your in combat. I am not sure if a Redgaurds Adrenaline Rush can be de-buffed like a Bosmers can. I have not tested, but I think that they do not get resource regen de-buffed with that racial proc skill.

I am not saying redgaurds need a buff or anything, but maybe you can come up with a more unique way of portraying a Redgaurds abilities?

These figures dont include cp (up to 15%), continous assault (20%), and class passives (12% for warden, 25% for nb (15 from shadow, 10% from relentless), 20% for sorc and if you slot repentence, 10% for templar). I am not saying a bosmer has to do this, I am just showing how easy it is to do it.

Using potions with restore stam is standard across most stam builds (few exceptions are those using lingering vitality potions, and Im sure there are others).

max_only · January 2019

NobleMatias wrote: »

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

You didn't address rampant stupidity like Bosmers losing their stealth bonus. Yet again PVE gets screwed because of PVP.

Bosmer now have a mechanic that allows them to be the fastest resource harvesters in the game. Please for the love of god stop complaining about the Bosmer's stealth being taken away. they are given other special skills to make up, and for you to complain about 3m of detect just makes me laugh so damn much. The Bosmer race literally got a buff when comparing all the race changes [edit].

[edited for baiting]

NobleMatias wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I will be an constructive as possible because it seems I am hurting some persons feelings.

In the case of a Bosmer and a Khajiit. What has replaced the stealth damage a and sneak potential? Bosmer now are able to roll dodge and gain a 20% boost to speed, I can imagine them playing with their victims regarding certain sets, and are able to spot enemies at 3m the cost of a 3m sneak. Khajiit on the other hand have always been the sneakiest In every Elder Scrolls entry, hence why they still have their sneaky style. Neither have the damage bonus as before, and both are based on lore. Bosmer being that they turn into ravenous hunting beasts if you mess with their forest, and khajit for being master thief's with a whole back story and Daedric Items to back it up.

I would trade 3m of stealth for a 20% speed boost any day. I know majority who love the changes are not on the forums voicing frustrations when simply should not be as big a deal, so peeps should be calm. Now it would be warranted if people of which I will not mention, can back the statements with proof, data, and statistics, this will make me and many others take what is said more seriously. I have shown these. The Bosmer race will still be viable in a sneaky role and honestly be able to roll out of danger and pop into sneak mode with a 20% speed boost. This enables a quick getaway.

I am trying to show everyone that the team at ZOS have really number crunched on the races while providing unique buffs, and they are indeed balanced. Every race is now viable. But of course tweaking would not hurt for the sake of diversity. I could name a ton of lore related reasons to tweak the races.

I am scratching my head on why you think this argument of yours will win any converts. I don’t think you are quite grasping why people are upset with the Bosmer change. The addition of the roll, or the bonus damage from stealth, or what ever, is immaterial. It appears to me no one who is arguing for Bosmers to retain their stealth actually cares what the second half of the passive is.

The point is that bosmers are sneaky and the players who play bosmers like to play a sneaky characters. That is what they care about. Not combat. Nor about characters that roll around a lot.

The stealth functionality is being nerfed for bosmers, and ONLY for bosmers. Everyone other race is having their stealth ability stay the same or it’s being boosted.

The roll mechanic is ok. I think rolling in eso is clumsily implemented so when I actually roll it’s by accident. So right now, on live, I have a two part racial I am getting a lot of use of, and it’s changing to a two part racial I will get little use of. So yes I am going to complain.

But even then, if I could only keep part of the old racial I would keep the stealth. In fact if it was changed to 6m of stealth and NOTHING ELSE I would not complain.

To sum up; The stealth mechanic is important to other players. Right now it is being nerfed for them (and me) and they are upset about it (as am I). We don’t care about the roll/speed boost. Stealth is what’s fun.

I have been winning people over almost since this race post was posted. You and others can disagree and complain all you want until your blue in the face but unless you can provide an alternative for the whole of the ESO community, not just the people who play Bosmer and like a little bit of stealth, that can change a Bosmer to be more unique compared to other races, then all I hear is people complaining because that is the race they play.

Provide proof that 3m in sneak is a huge deal, and that 20% speed boost into a Nightblades sneak skill is not better for sneaking. How is a 6m Bosmer stealth different from a Khajiit's 5m? Can you make a mechanic that makes a Bosmer have a unique stealth buff? Will that mechanic match the others in lore and balance? You also blatantly disregard people who play with a game pad or controller as for such roll dodging is quite easy and useful, and not a clumsy on accident mistake. It was built into the game for a reason, and a lot of the ESO community play on console as well.

As I conclude all I hear really is gripes, no constructive thoughts. They are saying give me what I want now, not maybe you can make it better this way. All races matter in this game, as do all players, and pandering to the vocal minority is def not the way to go about it. Attack, or I mean talk to me with reason, and thought provoking analogies.

You want to see numbers? Fine.

3m of additional stealth > 0m of additional stealth. It’s a full 3m better actually (I thought that was obvious).

Show me your numbers that say 0m of extra stealth is better then the 3m of extra stealth. Remember, roll boost has nothing to do with stealth.

Stop playing into your own mind games and read. I said compare it to roll dodging speed boost and going into a sneak mode. No saltyness please.[/quote]

NobleMatias wrote: »

For all the peeps wanting sneak back for the Bosmer. I hope you guys get it back, I genuinely hope you are able to get a little sneak bonus because that would mean you would lose that speed boost, and that makes me happy ; }. If you lose that speed boost then me and many others will have an easier time killing you in PVP. So zos please give back the sneak bonus to Bosmer and its players so both them and the many wanting to kill them in PVP can be happy. While your at it give the khajiit the speed boost so we can use it against them.

Khajiits on PTS are figuratively riding guards people lol

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455172/a-visual-of-khajiits-new-stealth-capability-stacking-is-quite-extreme/

No one uses stealth detect. You want numbers, give me the number of instances in PVE that you use stealth detect. Stealth detect is 100% useless and they know it, they even wrote it in their opening post. “”(many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!)””

You want us to be satisfied with the rolling bonus and ignore a completely useless change. That is what you are asking for. We want them to keep the old stealth radius AND the new rolling bonus, how hard is it to understand?

Them: we changed your burger, instead of pickles and onions, here’s some tomatoes and durian on your burger.
Us: can we have the pickles we always had with those tomatoes? A lot of us actually used the pickles.
You: people you get tomatoes! Be content with your durian