Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21

MotokoHutt

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I think they value defensive passives more highly than aggressive ones, not realizing how unbalancing that is. Argonian potion passive should probably be changed to a flat Regeneration, and they should get definitely get more of something else back. This race went from Top tier Tank, and Top tier healer to crap at both. Imperial Red Diamond is a much crappier version of what Orcs get and Orc is more agile and just a better race. The slot machine is not good on a racial passive and never has been. If Imperials are so lucky that number should be 50%, then we can talk. I'm still not sure what I think about Dunmer.

If you like the Orc passive so much I wish we could swap, having spent days testing it since Wrathstone PTS went live the Orcs new passive is garbage imo because the delay, small amounts and split stats return makes it all but redundent in 99% of enguagments. Your sitting here complaining about Imperial but my poor Orc char is over 20% stronger on an Imperial then with the Orc's trashy lore breaking passives.

Samsquanch wrote: »

Why not make racial bonuses conditional based on lore?

For example,

Orc gets 258 weapon damage when wielding melee weapons.

Bosmer gets 258 weapon damage when wielding bows.

Altmer gets 258 spell damage when wielding staves.

Dunmer gets 258 spell damage and weapon damage when dual wielding.

Imperial gets 258 weapon damage when using sword and shield.

Nord gets 258 weapon damage when wielding 2 handed weapons.

Whatever other races I forgot could get damage buffs based on something they are wielding that makes sense with lore.

Numerically, the bonuses would be equal, but based on a condition that makes sense with Elder Scrolls lore.

Seems like a simple solution that would equalize things and allow for greater racial and build diversity.

A. there is not enough weapons to races to make a system like this viable.

B. this doesnt create diversity and enguaging gameplay and instead pigeon holes players even further making races specific MMO tropes and useless beyond that.

dusk194

I'm a casual player who almost exclusivly mains a dark elf dragon knight. Most of these changes look good. But I am very sad to see my fire damage passive buff be removed. I understand the disparity in the DPS delta of a dark elf magica fire DK against nearly every other race of that class, but that was what made the dunmer mage so amazing. It was tailored to fire damage as well as defense, thats why I loved it. This change feels shallow. It's more general now and argualby more useful to a wider audiance, but the lack of niche diminishes the Dunmers appeal. I agree that the 7% is too high to keep it in line with your overall changes. But keeping a minor buff, say 3% would have been welcome. Enough to suggest that a Bosmer still favors fire offensivly while not being overly impactful.

Homogenization of class and race niches usualy results in every choice being less meaningful. Niche, while restrictive, adds to the weight of a players choice and generaly adds to investment by a player. I want to care about my choices, i want to care about my race and class. Keeping unique, niche offensive choices greatly adds to that attachment and investment. You only need to look at competitors like WoW to see the dimished returns from homogenization.

Lower the delta and gap disparites, but don't do away with unique offensive traits entirley. If you do, everything becomes equal and looses what made it interesting and unique to begin with. You did this well with defenseive traits, but failed in multiple races when considering offensive traits.

tordenvaer

I really do appreciate the tone of this post, and I understand that a lot of thought has gone into all of the balancing.

As someone who doesn't really care about min/maxing, I gotta say I'm really sad about the changes to stealth. I do mostly PvE content and my main is a Bosmer, and one of the things that really drew me to this game was the ability to play stealthy – I've done the same in all prior Elder Scrolls games. When I'm doing solo PvE, stealth openers have always been one of my favorite things and losing all stealth utility from that passive kinda sucks. I really don't want to play as just another average stamina build, and I really don't care about roll dodging or movement speed anyhow.

Similarly with Khajiits, I appreciate keeping the detection bonus, but my Khajiit is also built around stealth and damage from stealth. I understand there are sets you can use for sneak, but these two changes certainly don't feel very good for my playstyle or really lore-wise. Yes stealth is not ubiquitous, but for me that's the biggest draw to this game.

Samsquanch

MotokoHutt wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I think they value defensive passives more highly than aggressive ones, not realizing how unbalancing that is. Argonian potion passive should probably be changed to a flat Regeneration, and they should get definitely get more of something else back. This race went from Top tier Tank, and Top tier healer to crap at both. Imperial Red Diamond is a much crappier version of what Orcs get and Orc is more agile and just a better race. The slot machine is not good on a racial passive and never has been. If Imperials are so lucky that number should be 50%, then we can talk. I'm still not sure what I think about Dunmer.

If you like the Orc passive so much I wish we could swap, having spent days testing it since Wrathstone PTS went live the Orcs new passive is garbage imo because the delay, small amounts and split stats return makes it all but redundent in 99% of enguagments. Your sitting here complaining about Imperial but my poor Orc char is over 20% stronger on an Imperial then with the Orc's trashy lore breaking passives.

Samsquanch wrote: »

Why not make racial bonuses conditional based on lore?

For example,

Orc gets 258 weapon damage when wielding melee weapons.

Bosmer gets 258 weapon damage when wielding bows.

Altmer gets 258 spell damage when wielding staves.

Dunmer gets 258 spell damage and weapon damage when dual wielding.

Imperial gets 258 weapon damage when using sword and shield.

Nord gets 258 weapon damage when wielding 2 handed weapons.

Whatever other races I forgot could get damage buffs based on something they are wielding that makes sense with lore.

Numerically, the bonuses would be equal, but based on a condition that makes sense with Elder Scrolls lore.

Seems like a simple solution that would equalize things and allow for greater racial and build diversity.

A. there is not enough weapons to races to make a system like this viable.

B. this doesnt create diversity and enguaging gameplay and instead pigeon holes players even further making races specific MMO tropes and useless beyond that.

A. This was just an example, as stated in my post. Racial bonuses don’t have to be tied to weapons, but I’ll counter your point anyways. You have SB, DW, 2H (which could be further split into axes, swords, maces, daggers), bow, resto staff, destro staff (which could be further split by element). With so many subcategories, you could give each race a bonus that is unique. But that wasn’t really the point.

B. Different races could have the same bonuses, which would allow for people to have options of which race they want to play while receiving similar bonuses. By making every race extremely different as they have, people are much more inclined to be “pigeon holed”.

Fuzzybrick

Samsquanch wrote: »

Why not make racial bonuses conditional based on lore?

For example,

Orc gets 258 weapon damage when wielding melee weapons.

Bosmer gets 258 weapon damage when wielding bows.

Altmer gets 258 spell damage when wielding staves.

Dunmer gets 258 spell damage and weapon damage when dual wielding.

Imperial gets 258 weapon damage when using sword and shield.

Nord gets 258 weapon damage when wielding 2 handed weapons.

Whatever other races I forgot could get damage buffs based on something they are wielding that makes sense with lore.

Numerically, the bonuses would be equal, but based on a condition that makes sense with Elder Scrolls lore.

Seems like a simple solution that would equalize things and allow for greater racial and build diversity.

Because that would make too much sense. But that would ruin what they are trying to accomplish with this change. They don't want specialization. "Any race any class" That's why I suggested along the same line as you but something that wouldn't even change much between classes. And the other skills you should be able to chose to align with what you want. One unique lore based passive that will have little impact on anyone's play style with the ability to chose from every other trait that isn't unique.

ChefZero

dusk194 wrote: »

Homogenization of class and race niches usualy results in every choice being less meaningful. Niche, while restrictive, adds to the weight of a players choice and generaly adds to investment by a player. I want to care about my choices, i want to care about my race and class. Keeping unique, niche offensive choices greatly adds to that attachment and investment. You only need to look at competitors like WoW to see the dimished returns from homogenization.

The weight of choice will result in players are always *** up by every balancing patch concerning the racials. Homogenization of races aren't bad because ZOS can spend their time in more meaningful things like class and set balance.

Next chapter we'll get a new class and maybe we'll eventually get melee magic weapon skillline someday. Every update we get some new sets. These are all things that have to be balanaced. This game is full of synergies and it's not a shame to make some basic things of builds like races less impactful. Because a class has several possibilities to be built, I can exchange sets and weapons, but I can not change a race without money.

TheTraveler

ChefZero wrote: »

but I can not change a race without money.

Mm-hmm. Not in ESO as it currently is, anyway. The need to change races creates income for them, so why would they completely homogenize?

In any case, why dumb down the game instead of keeping/making it interesting? Elders Scrolls is an extremely lore-rich game series. A lot of time and thought was put into creating interesting societies, so it would be a crying shame if that was not honored in the characters that the player is able to create for himself. Playing a role is why this is called a role-playing game after all.So when people want to throw away the lore, I want to cry.

Exterminis

Uryel wrote: »

Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.

This is ludicroulsy bad. Probably the worst change you've made to the game in all the years I've been playing, and that's saying something. Even more ludicrous than the recent nerf to the nightblade's path of shadow. So incredibly bad that I crawled from below the rock I usually hide under to actually post, which has happened like... Twice in 3 years ?

Bosmers ARE stealthy. Check with the lore team, if you have to, even though you say you worked with "other teams". They should remain so.

So, Khajiits get a major boost to their stealth (+2m !), and Bosmers get f*****. Amazing. So, of course, on a more personal note, what am I supposed to do with my very stealthy PvE-only bosmer ? I don't give a damn about stealth detection, that's for PvP, and I don't do that. I don't CARE about that. The whole point of my character is that she can sneak anywhere, anytime, effortlessly. Am I supposed to race-change her into a Khajiit to keep her efficiency, and to hell with the looks ? Or maybe just change completely the playstyle I really enjoy because some [Self-censoring the expletive] decided that everything should be "unique" (understand, overspecialised and minmaxing-friendly), and as such it's not fashionable to have a comparable bonus on two different races ?

Seriously, there are lots of things you guys made over the years that have been very questionable, but you're going way to far in that "let's make everything specialised to please the minmaxers" trend. Gotta love all your so called "let's have freedom and all", while you're actually doing otherwise.

By the way, on a related note, if you wanted people to have freedom in character development, there wouln't be a need to chose morphs based on the ressource they use, we could chose based on the effect of the morph itself... But of course you need to specialise in either magicka or stamina, so we don't really, unless we play hybrids, and everyone will tell you that hybrids aren't all that great. Whatever... I could detail why and how it would be alot better for that so called freedom of choice to remove magicka and stamina and have only one ressource instead, with only minimal adjustments to the game mechanics, I've actually thought it through thoroughly, but never bothered to do so because I knew no one would listen. It's freedom-friendly, not minmaxing friendly, and despite all your talks, freedom of choice is NOT something you're encouraging.

I guess I'm just gonna have to play something different entirely because obviously it's impossible for 2 races to have similar mechanics. I haven't been this pissed by a change log in about 15 years. Congrats, that's quite an achievement.

I agree 100% with everything that is said here. This sums up my feelings perfectly. I would just like to add that the logic behind the change is faulty. If Bosmers are supposed to be great hunters, then they need to have a reduced stealth detectio radius, NOT the ability to detect stealthed creatures. Hunting is all about being silent, and sneaky, and being able to remain undetected as your prey moves within range. It has nothing to do with seeing hidden animals. The hunter remains hidden, the prey moves about, blissfully unaware until it's too late.

I love my Bosmer PVE Thief/Asaassin because she's so stealthy. Now, if I want to keep playing a stealthy thief/assassin, I have to play a Khajiit....and I hate Khajiit with a passion. This change really, really sucks.

StarOfElyon

Sherman has a good video on the changes too

https://youtu.be/abp7mRe9CZk

Moonsorrow

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

So everyone playing this game is a pve dps?

I wonder how many times had to remind about that already...

AuldWolf

Ooh. The balancing team is playing favourites. Again.

This is why you can't just have one balancing team. You need three, at least. Then you rotate between them. So if one person buffs their most loved class/race, and nerfs another's, they might come back to the game to find out the opposite has happened and then they'd have to communicate and bargain with the other team leaders.

It wouldn't be perfect, but it wouldn't be this. This is reminiscent of WoW and orc/human warriors. The representatives being equally as biased (the werewolf class representative saying that the thread said the exact opposite of what the representative personally wanted, which lead to "that's not what we said at all!" posts) doesn't help. The reason why you shouldn't just have one representative for any balance is the same reason why you shouldn't have one balancing team lead.

Honestly, with the hot mess that is Elsweyr (redguard necromancers, #loreisdead), I don't even know that they care any more. I'm still glad I jumped ship while I did. I look in every now and then hoping they've come to their senses and every time it's somehow worse.

I mean, I cringed at the old racist trope of the white scholar and minority tour guide in the trailer. I knew it had to be bad.

tv1973

Haven't posted in a real long time but its warranted here,

Its warranted because I've been a member of this game since February 28th 2014. I played during the beta test with a Bosmer and when it came time to real world I recreated her as well as I could with the sliders so we could continue our adventures, There's been good times and bad times and the amount of punishment I've put her through, Lava baths and VMA and countless serious beatings all across the globe. When I read the race changes I knew it was time to step up for my Little Bosmer and defend her right to a fair final racial passive.

It needs to be rethought and redone. its garbage and you've even admitted its useless for more than half the content in the game. Purposely overlooking the fact that Bosmer have always from as far back as the original Daggerfall excelled at stealth based classes.They deserve their stealth. I understand how you want to give a unique feel to the races but taking away the stealth from the Bosmer doesn't make them feel unique. you're taking something that is an integral part of the race. Leave their stealth alone and get rid of the Hunters sight garbage.

If you want me to point out a further insult after taking away a racial passive from the Bosmer (basically) you've gone and gave the Khajitt 2 racial bonuses for one slot. 8% Crit and 5 meter stealth reduction. Thais just plain bad form,.

spiralvin

tv1973 wrote: »

Haven't posted in a real long time but its warranted here,

If you want me to point out a further insult after taking away a racial passive from the Bosmer (basically) you've gone and gave the Khajitt 2 racial bonuses for one slot. 8% Crit and 5 meter stealth reduction. Thais just plain bad form,.

I fully agree with this. The racial patch is supposed to encourage more diversity without compromising the meta game that both PvP and PvE players are so accustomed to. Most of the major backlash is towards the fact that instead of addressing the niche of each race towards a particular role in the group, the racial 'balance' patch simply upsets the actual balance of the races. For instance, whereas the changes towards Dunmer and Khajiit encourages flexibility in playing the roles (tank, healer, DD), other races like the Redguards and Bretons continue to be shoehorned into the Stamina and Magicka DPS (and the latter, healer, to an extent) respectively. One cannot help but have a feeling that this 'balance' patch is an attempt to market the Khajiit race for serious players (Read: min-maxers) towards the upcoming Elsweyr chapter.

Even lore-wise, the Bosmer and Khajiit (Along with the Argonians, since the times of The Elder Scrolls Arena and The Elder Scrolls Daggerfall) are supposed to be rivals in sleight-of-hand. It is understandable that each races should have a niche that flash them as unique. However, right now, this patch simply paints Bosmers as an extremely-niche race, whose passives are simply undesirable in any serious content (Such as veteran DLC dungeons and trials), and the Khajiit as a highly attractive race that, on top of its versatility towards hybridity, will eventually become the 'standard' for end-game content, both PvP and PvE, in both healing and damage-dealing.

One might argue that the Khajiit's innate racial regen being spread out in all three stats (100 health, 75 magicka/stamina) still does not do justice for the race, and that the resources should be allocated out of health recovery, and evenly distributed towards magicka and stamina. However, this would simply further enforce the race's position in the upcoming meta, much to the detriment of the already-neglected Bosmer. Personally, I welcome the 100 health recovery as a form of 'balance' that trades their performativity as healers and DDs for a form of soft-survivability.

In fact, in terms of lore, simply making Khajiits hybrid as a nod towards their various 'breeds' is not lore friendly. It would simply mean that, in terms of Khajiit breeds, the Cathay breed is as proficient in magic as the Dagi, and as strong and durable as the Pahmar. Most people would agree that when one thinks of the Bosmer and Khajiit, one would think of agility and stealth, along with maybe a minority of spellcasters that serve as maybe priests and spinners within their homeland. Yet, why is it so that the Khajiit can receive boons towards spellcasting as a nod towards their lunar worship culture, but not the Bosmer, who are also known to be proficient in Alteration and have spinners and tale-weaving in Valenwood? This implies favoritism towards Khajiit over the Bosmer.

Perhaps one suggestion for the Bosmer and Khajiit that I personally would love to see is

Bosmer

Increases experience gain in Bow Skill Line by 15%, decreases fall damage taken by 10% → No changes
Increases your Stamina Recovery by 258. → No changes
Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and your Poison Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Poisoned status effect.→ Increases your Max Magicka by 500, and Max Stamina by 1500, and your Poison Resistance by 1280 and Disease Resistance by 1280. You are immune to the Poisoned and Diseased status effect.
Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.→ Hunter’s Eye: Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 2m, and increases your Stealth detection radius by 2m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.

Khajiit

Robustness: Increases your Health Recovery by 100 and your Stamina and Magicka recovery by 75. → Robustness: Increases your Health Recovery by 100, your Stamina recovery by 75 and Magicka recovery by 50.
Lunar Blessings: Increases your Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina by 750. → Lunar Blessings: Increases your Max Health and Magicka by 500, and Stamina by 1000.
Feline Ambush: Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical Chance by 8%. Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 5m. → Feline Ambush: Increases your Weapon Critical by 6%, and Spell Critical Chance by 3%. Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 3m.

With the current planned revision towards racial skills, I can already imagine an end-game trial group, where the only Dunmer MagDK DPS in the group gets kicked out for not having a feline tail.

Seraphayel

Moonsorrow wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

So everyone playing this game is a pve dps?

I wonder how many times had to remind about that already...

If not the changes are even less significant because something like DPS can't be transferred into a PvP environment. And if it's really about PvP the defensive passives might be more important than anything else. The Bosmer and Khajiit stealth nerf might be an issue in PvP but the changes to the "meta Magicka" or "meta Stamina" racials... not so much.

HellionF

how to kill the uniqueness of your racial choice by the turncoat gilliam. Now a company man, once upon a time he'd have ripped this to shreds, now he's on the payroll. ZOS you're a disgusting foul creature, the cancer of the Elder Scroll Series and an utter ***.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Moonsorrow wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

So everyone playing this game is a pve dps?

I wonder how many times had to remind about that already...

Considering things need to die, yeah every one is a dps in pve. Tank and healer roles matter in group content and you can be any race with them.

lokulin

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

So everyone playing this game is a pve dps?

I wonder how many times had to remind about that already...

Considering things need to die, yeah every one is a dps in pve. Tank and healer roles matter in group content and you can be any race with them.

You can be any race but some classes become a lot closer to DK level tanking when paired with particular races. Until there is better class tanking balance that doesn't rely on sets or racial passives to fill in short comings that DKs don't have then changing racial passives to fix dps problems invariably causes issues for non DK tanks.

And to the person saying 2% is nothing, 2% can be the difference between a hard mode clear or not. Everyone treats 2% as if it is insignificant but I bet you wouldn't pass up 2% of a billion dollars for free. Scale and context also matters.

Synthwavius

So in other words it's same old.
We had magicka and stamina races and we will have magicka and stamina races.
We could simply choose our ancestors and decide if our character will have stamina or magicka benefits but oh well.
Same old and more new old with upcoming "chapter" Cya eso

TheRealPotoroo

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

You didn't address rampant stupidity like Bosmers losing their stealth bonus. Yet again PVE gets screwed because of PVP.

TheTraveler

I don't understand people who want races to be merely cosmetic. Since the inception of TES, the races have had different talents. And hey, check here how Bosmer and Kahjit were represented in the first TES game, Arena:

"Bosmer hail from the province of Valenwood. They are a people of the forests, matching their features to all that is found growing in the green woods of their homeland. They are known to be extremely agile and quick. Bosmer receive their (level / 3) as a bonus to hit and damage with any bow weapon. They are well suited towards any class, although their nimbleness serves them best in any art involving thievery. "

"Khajiit are expert climbers, able to scale chasm wall sides with speed unmatched by any other race. " Interesting, nothing about stealth in the Kahjit description. (Although using common sense, real cats ARE stealthy, so it makes kind of sense that they would be stealthy)

Interestingly, Argonians were adept at thievery/sleight of hand and *gasp* magic:
"Argonians are a highly evolved race of reptilians, at home in the marsh-like environment from which they hail. Origins of the Argonians can be traced to their homeland, Black Marsh. They are known for their intelligence, agility and speed. Because of their reptilian nature, Argonians do not tire easily while swimming, and seldom drown. They can also swim faster than any other race. They are adept in any art involving the arcane, or involving thieving and sleight of hand. " So definitely makes sense to have them as magica users and Kahjit as stamina users.

Let's see the races in TES 2, Daggerfall:

"The tall, golden-skinned High Elves are easily equal to the Bretons in sorcerous ability due to their high Intelligence, force of will, and agility. They are more susceptible to spells than the people of High Rock, but by their nature are more completely immune to paralysation." (So stun immunity in Altmer would have made sense)

"The strange reptilian people of Black Marsh seem equally comfortable in the water - surely no other race of Tamriel can swim faster or longer than Argonians. An intelligent, quick-footed, and agile people, Argonians often train in magery and thievery"

"The finest archers in Tamriel, the Wood Elves of Valenwood are nimble and as quick as the wind. Because of the curious natures and natural agility, Wood Elves often become thieves "

"Highly intelligent and willful, the Bretons have a natural bond with the forces of magicka. Many great sorcerers have come out of High Rock, and even the humblest Breton can boast a high resistance to the destructive powers of magicka."

"The dusky, fire-eyed Dark Elves of Morrowind are a strong, intelligent, and quick-footed people. They are legendary sorcerors and warriors, with a prowess with sword and bow rivalling that of the Redguards and Wood Elves." I guess they were always hybrids, so I have to concede that one, but a fire damage bonus can benefit both mag and stam users; stam users simply need to enchant their weapon with flame damage to benefit.

Ok, here enters the seed for Khajit stealth ability : "Descended from the great cats of the desert, the Khajiit are an agile, intelligent, and hardy people. Some chose to decorate their faces in the style of their feline ancestors, and most all, given their inclination, make excellent thieves due to their Climbing abilities." (Not stealth yet, but climbing, though climbing wouldn't translate to the later games, hence stealth, of course).

"The citizens of Skyrim are a tall and fair-haired people. Strong, willful, and hardy, Nords are famous for their resistance to cold, even magical frost, and are known for their prowess as warriors."

"The most naturally talented warriors in Tamriel, the dark Redguards of Hammerfell seem to have been created for battle. In addition to their affinity for weaponry, Redguards are blessed with hardy constitutions and quickness of foot."

Taking into account that Bosmer, even more than Khajit, had an affinity for stealth from the very first game, I feel it would be a travesty to remove their talent for stealth from the game.

John_Falstaff

@TheTraveler , I'm not sure how a few excerpts from old games' race descriptions override the lore that signals that khajiits (more so certain subspecies) have strong affinity for magic. And ZOS did state that new passives try to encompass the diversity of the race, makes it logical.

Now I don't mind trading some stealth (and health regen) away for more sustain on stamina and magicka...

TheTraveler

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@TheTraveler , I'm not sure how a few excerpts from old games' race descriptions override the lore that signals that khajiits (more so certain subspecies) have strong affinity for magic. And ZOS did state that new passives try to encompass the diversity of the race, makes it logical.

Now I don't mind trading some stealth (and health regen) away for more sustain on stamina and magicka...

Hmm, which lore are you referring to there? In which game was this lore introduced?

(Btw, those excerpts are the description of the abilites and affinities that the specific races came with at character creation, for example +10 intelligence (magical affinity) -10 strength, +10 endurance/willpower and so forth, to specifically cause discrepancies in certain stats between the races so that, this being an RPG, (Role Playing Game), the player would have choices regarding the playstyle they wanted to use - for example to conquer the enemy using either predominantly magic, strength or stealth. )

Make no mistake, I have a Khajiit stamblade myself, which I've been using for both PVP and PVE, and I must admit the only thing I might have found a bit shortcoming is precisely that she is a bit squishy unless I use my WW abilities. So personally, I'd like to hang on to every bit of health and stam that I can.

What gets me is that these changes are basically showing a toffee to us gamers who have put a lot of thought and trouble into optimizing our various characters. A whole lot of that work, money, testing and research will be going out of the window if these changes go through. Not to mention that if you have been playing certain characters over the years, you kinda grow fond of them. I mean, if you had a Bosmer thief, you now have to change that into a Khajiit? A very different aesthetic, though both Bosmer and Khajiit excelled at stamina, so your gear and abilities on these toons are obviously currently geared towards stam abilities. (I have both a Bosmer and a Khajiit at the moment, but on different servers, so I have a stake in the changes to both)

John_Falstaff

@TheTraveler , look up on UESP, I think most sources refer "Mixed Unit Tactics" from Oblivion, Morrowind and Skyrim, lore has it that Alfiq, Dagi and Dagi-raht are spellcasters and that helped to win Five Years War against Valenwood. And by the way, Alfiq will be introduced in the upcoming Elsweyr chapter, even though as NPC, so that makes even more sense.

Game mechanics, especially that of older games, might be over-simplified compared to lore. I absolutely don't feel it out of place to give khajiits - why, whole their life is connected to lunar cycle, isn't it magic - equal chances as both magicka and stamina. And mind, I do get attached too, I main (and RP) stamina khajiit DK, but I feel that such things as being (or not being) a good thief shouldn't be affected by racial stats in character sheets. If I want to play a knight archetype, I don't care about numbers in character sheet, I'm not playing a generic khajiit indistinguishable from all other mass of khajiits, I'm playing my own self. Similarly, if I were to play a bosmer thief, something like "pickpocketing chance" in character sheet (or lack of it) wouldn't spoil it for me. Hey, if I were to play a merchant redguard who doesn't know which end to hold a sword by, I'd spit on character sheet that says I'm skilled warrior, and would have kept playing whatever personality I feel with. ^^

RPGplayer13579

We'll also be granting one free race change, per account.
Edited by ZOS_GinaBruno on January 16, 2019 7:41PM

Can I have one free class change instead? So I can change the class of my Dunmer character from a Dragon Knight to a Nightblade. Due to the loss of the bonus to fire damage. Thank you @ZOS_GinaBruno.

TheTraveler

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@TheTraveler , look up on UESP, I think most sources refer "Mixed Unit Tactics" from Oblivion, Morrowind and Skyrim, lore has it that Alfiq, Dagi and Dagi-raht are spellcasters and that helped to win Five Years War against Valenwood. And by the way, Alfiq will be introduced in the upcoming Elsweyr chapter, even though as NPC, so that makes even more sense.

Game mechanics, especially that of older games, might be over-simplified compared to lore. I absolutely don't feel it out of place to give khajiits - why, whole their life is connected to lunar cycle, isn't it magic - equal chances as both magicka and stamina. And mind, I do get attached too, I main (and RP) stamina khajiit DK, but I feel that such things as being (or not being) a good thief shouldn't be affected by racial stats in character sheets. If I want to play a knight archetype, I don't care about numbers in character sheet, I'm not playing a generic khajiit indistinguishable from all other mass of khajiits, I'm playing my own self. Similarly, if I were to play a bosmer thief, something like "pickpocketing chance" in character sheet (or lack of it) wouldn't spoil it for me. Hey, if I were to play a merchant redguard who doesn't know which end to hold a sword by, I'd spit on character sheet that says I'm skilled warrior, and would have kept playing whatever personality I feel with. ^^

Thanks for that bit of lore, I will look it up. I'm wondering if that came out of the usually excellent books found in-game that I once took the time to read and found some very good stories in there. Sadly can't remember every detail, and some were a lot more interesting than others (On purpose, I suspect). And btw, while I'm saying such a lot of negative things about the race balancing team, I want to say that I found Murkmire absolutely wonderful and interesting from a lore/cultural/racial perspective, so kudo's to the team that developed such interesting Argonian cultural ideas.

Ok, John, you say that you play as "yourself" but for a roleplaying game to be truly immersive, you also need to immerse yourself in the world, otherwise, why bother to build a fantasy world such as Tamriel? Some of the TES games had very good background stories, such as Morrowind and Oblivion and the worlds were well fleshed out so that one could become very immersed in the sense that the gameworld started to feel "real" to you.

I realize you obviously can't immerse yourself as much in an MMO, but hey, it's still nice to keep and Elder Scroll game, even if it is an MMO, close to the actual tradition of the Elder Scroll games. And here I am talking about how one became used to each race was presented as far as their usual characteristics were concerned - I mean, there have always been some base differences, such as Altmer have always been good with magic whereas Khajiit have always been agile and Redguards have always been good warriors, and I do think one should at least stick to a semblance of that. After all, the player is free to choose his character's race, but admittedly, maybe ESO players aren't given as much background at character creation as we had with the SP games?

John_Falstaff

@TheTraveler , yup, it's in those in-game lorebooks, I've only seen that one myself in Morrowind but it's said to be present in all three - was an interesting read for me as well, though I never got to read every single one.

As for immersive roleplaying... see, that's precisely my point. I firmly believe that the only thing that affects someone's immersion is their own imagination. If one needs numbers in character sheet to back up his story of a thief / warrior / mage / whatever - well that's poor man's roleplaying. That's the issue with racial passives in general: they kill individuality. I seriously encourage people to play more unique types than generic high elf mage or swordsman redguard or bosmer thief. Why let your character sheet tell you that you must be one of the average grey mass? Not every altmer should be good with magic, not every khajiit must be agile, not every redguard is a good warrior, and not every Canadian is a good hockey player (sorry, Canadians, don't mean any offence - I can say in consolation that you have one dreamboat of a prime minister). If I want to play a stealthy thief dunmer, I'll gulp down a potion or put on a set to sneak past a guard, and will keep imagining that I'm sneaky - and damn be the numbers in character sheet; so I was raised among thieves and not among mages - deal with it, it's my story.

Bottom line is, racial passives mustn't affect roleplay - if imagination struggles to imagine a stealthy bosmer without stealth listed under 'K'->Racial, imagination's better up its game. I'd be happy without racials at all: they slap a brand on me - you can imagine me being grumpy playing a valiant khajiit knight and, according to character sheet, being for some reason skilled with pickpocketing. Where'd that come from? I never learned to pickpocket in my whole life, how is that honing my swordsmanship gives me more chances at cutting a purse. Makes no sense. So don't let racials stop you from immersing. You're not an average khajiit or bosmer; you're unique personality all of your own, your imagination will serve you better than a bunch of numbers.

TheTraveler

@John_Falstaff , I kinda hear what you're saying, - you don't like stereotypes, and I agree a little bit (well, I hate stereotyping in the real world, but this is a game), but I'm wondering why you would choose a Khajiit to be a knight but if that tickled your fancy, you could of course do that and simply not waste a skill point on the stealthy passive.

But please don't deny the people who like the idea of a stealthy cat or Bosmer or who like to play according to the lore, to have race-characteristic passives. A role-playing game is pretty much about player choice, and that is quite clear in the class choices in this game.

For example I like the idea of my warden as a DD beastmaster, and I'm less into the ice and healing on that toon, but there are still skills in those lines that I find useful. Like all other skill line passives in a game, nobody forces you to acquire your racial passives - but since it -is- a roleplaying game with diverse races, it is nice to have them to help build a unique character which you can do if you're purely into roleplaying, because there are so many choices classwise, racewise, appearance-wise and gear-wise. You CAN be a Khajit knight, in fact I did have a Khajiit templar whose base skill line was two-handed. (I respecced the toon to try and turn him into a tank, but decided DK's make the best tanks after all. :P Not tried a warden tank yet....)

John_Falstaff

@TheTraveler , well I like being khajiit and I like being a knight, I think that suits me and I can imagine myself as a part of great story - as many stories as I like. Why else? It's the only good reason to choose some race and some occupation. Not choosing it because my character sheet tells me I must be a sneaky thief? Why would I accept that brand on me.

Well thing is, someone is invevitably going to be denied. I'm going to lose one passive and will still have to look at that "cutpurse" in my personal file. So how is denying me is better than denying someone else seeing the label 'stealthy' on their bosmer? Why can't I have a 'knight' in my knight khajiit's character sheet, because I'm minority or something? Once again, lore speaks averages, and we're playing unique personalities. Role-playing game is about playing a role we invent for ourselves, not the role that is stamped on us, we choose our story, not our passives. If I wanted to play a knight while having stamblade class? Sure I could, my imagination's the limit; so far hadn't any reason to complain about it.

Again, point in case: you don't need passives to help you build an unique characters. You don't need anything except your imagination. The framework of class / gear / racial passives mustn't in any way affect your personal unique story. So you're an orc mage, have been brought up on Artaeum and studied magic there. Can't see a single reason why you may want to look at orc's passives to choose that role if you like it. Passives will tell you that average orc is a brawler - so what, you're not an average orc. Tamriel is chock full of cliche altmer mages, redguard swordsmen and so on and so forth. Choices of racial passives and class don't make your character; your imagination does.

Bladewizard

I also have not posted in a long time but have been playing this game long enough to have almost 1800 cp (between ps and xbone) and all three anniversary cakes on the bone. I subb on both platforms and have spent alot on this game, with housing crafting and all. That said I felt compelled to defend stealth on bosmers. If you take away my bosmers stealth I will prob still play for awhile but I will not pay another dime. My bosmer are some of my favorite of my 23 toons, yes I have way too much time on my hands, specifically because of their stealth. My main on both platforms is an bosmer assasination rogue. I am a solo pve player and my sneaky templars are some of the funnest toons I have. I do not want to change them to cats. I have a cat and sylvester is fun but is not the same. I also think you should give one race change token per imperial at least. The one race people actually paid real money for the passives and you are changing them after collecting, seems like digital slight of hand, do not see how that is much different then charging for one house then after you have my caps substituting one you feel is of equal value. Just my two cents anyhow.

marius_buys

Yes Race Changes are certainly going to mix things up but please dont exploit the situation.