Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21

grizzly375

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Sherman has a good video on the changes too

https://youtu.be/abp7mRe9CZk

That's a great video and I appreciate the effort, but, I think testing on the precursor which dies with damn near one run through of a standard rotation doesn't give much information. Maybe it shows burst DPS capability, but it definitely isn't sufficient for sustain and long term damage assessment.

I'd like to see something like that on a real test target so we can see if any race besides RG can really hold those numbers. If not, the need to weave in HAs will have a significant long-term effect on true DPS output.

EmilyEstelle

PLEASE RECONSIDER THE STEALTH CHANGES TO BOSMER.

I very rarely can be bothered to post on forums, as I feel that generally anything I have to say will never be read by anybody making game development decisions, so why should I waste my time...

However, as somebody who also loves the Bosmer because of their stealth (and does NOT want to play as a Khajiit...) I have to suggest: Keep them stealthy by: Maintain their reduced detection radius, and increase the movement speed while in sneak instead of after roll-dodge to make it different from the cat-folk. I understand wanting to make the passive different from Khajiit, but to do away with it entirely??? That is foolish.

How many of the people suggesting and implementing these changes actually play ESO? Because if the people making game play decisions were made to spend a certain amount of time per month actually playing the game it would definitely show in the suggestions they made...

anadandy

NobleMatias wrote: »

How are khajiits and Bosmer a prime example? Literally all that has changed for Bosmer is they are able to spot sneaking people in PVP and can run faster after a dodge roll

For sake of accuracy, that is not all that's changed for Bosmer.

Increases experience gain in Bow Skill Line by 15%, decreases fall damage taken by 10% → No changes
Y’ffre’s Endurance: 21% Stamina Recovery → Increases your Stamina Recovery by 258.
Resist Affliction: 6% Max Stamina and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance → Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and your Poison Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Poisoned status effect.
Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.

Bosmer are also losing disease resistance and 10% damage bonus when in stealth. They are swapping stealth radius for stealth detection and gaining that movement buff.

StarOfElyon

I'm glad they're doing something about the toxic gank builds people keep creating.

EmilyEstelle

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I'm glad they're doing something about the toxic gank builds people keep creating.

They aren't, they are just making them change race into Khajiit.

John_Falstaff

EmilyEstelle wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I'm glad they're doing something about the toxic gank builds people keep creating.

They aren't, they are just making them change race into Khajiit.

Considering that everyone and their dog's running impenetrable in PvP, khajiit's going to be extremely weak there.

Cundu_Ertur

EmilyEstelle wrote: »

PLEASE RECONSIDER THE STEALTH CHANGES TO BOSMER.

I very rarely can be bothered to post on forums, as I feel that generally anything I have to say will never be read by anybody making game development decisions, so why should I waste my time...

However, as somebody who also loves the Bosmer because of their stealth (and does NOT want to play as a Khajiit...) I have to suggest: Keep them stealthy by: Maintain their reduced detection radius, and increase the movement speed while in sneak instead of after roll-dodge to make it different from the cat-folk. I understand wanting to make the passive different from Khajiit, but to do away with it entirely??? That is foolish.

How many of the people suggesting and implementing these changes actually play ESO? Because if the people making game play decisions were made to spend a certain amount of time per month actually playing the game it would definitely show in the suggestions they made...

Agree with the problem, don't agree with the solution. I think just adding the previous hiding bonus back to the new passive would fix the problem and be a balanced approach. Leave the movement in stealth alone, since that would reduce the value of certain armor sets and high level vampire passive.

Koronach

TheTraveler wrote: »

I don't understand people who want races to be merely cosmetic. Since the inception of TES, the races have had different talents. And hey, check here how Bosmer and Kahjit were represented in the first TES game, Arena:

"Bosmer hail from the province of Valenwood. They are a people of the forests, matching their features to all that is found growing in the green woods of their homeland. They are known to be extremely agile and quick. Bosmer receive their (level / 3) as a bonus to hit and damage with any bow weapon. They are well suited towards any class, although their nimbleness serves them best in any art involving thievery. "

"Khajiit are expert climbers, able to scale chasm wall sides with speed unmatched by any other race. " Interesting, nothing about stealth in the Kahjit description. (Although using common sense, real cats ARE stealthy, so it makes kind of sense that they would be stealthy)

Interestingly, Argonians were adept at thievery/sleight of hand and *gasp* magic:
"Argonians are a highly evolved race of reptilians, at home in the marsh-like environment from which they hail. Origins of the Argonians can be traced to their homeland, Black Marsh. They are known for their intelligence, agility and speed. Because of their reptilian nature, Argonians do not tire easily while swimming, and seldom drown. They can also swim faster than any other race. They are adept in any art involving the arcane, or involving thieving and sleight of hand. " So definitely makes sense to have them as magica users and Kahjit as stamina users.

Let's see the races in TES 2, Daggerfall:

"The tall, golden-skinned High Elves are easily equal to the Bretons in sorcerous ability due to their high Intelligence, force of will, and agility. They are more susceptible to spells than the people of High Rock, but by their nature are more completely immune to paralysation." (So stun immunity in Altmer would have made sense)

"The strange reptilian people of Black Marsh seem equally comfortable in the water - surely no other race of Tamriel can swim faster or longer than Argonians. An intelligent, quick-footed, and agile people, Argonians often train in magery and thievery"

"The finest archers in Tamriel, the Wood Elves of Valenwood are nimble and as quick as the wind. Because of the curious natures and natural agility, Wood Elves often become thieves "

"Highly intelligent and willful, the Bretons have a natural bond with the forces of magicka. Many great sorcerers have come out of High Rock, and even the humblest Breton can boast a high resistance to the destructive powers of magicka."

"The dusky, fire-eyed Dark Elves of Morrowind are a strong, intelligent, and quick-footed people. They are legendary sorcerors and warriors, with a prowess with sword and bow rivalling that of the Redguards and Wood Elves." I guess they were always hybrids, so I have to concede that one, but a fire damage bonus can benefit both mag and stam users; stam users simply need to enchant their weapon with flame damage to benefit.

Ok, here enters the seed for Khajit stealth ability : "Descended from the great cats of the desert, the Khajiit are an agile, intelligent, and hardy people. Some chose to decorate their faces in the style of their feline ancestors, and most all, given their inclination, make excellent thieves due to their Climbing abilities." (Not stealth yet, but climbing, though climbing wouldn't translate to the later games, hence stealth, of course).

"The citizens of Skyrim are a tall and fair-haired people. Strong, willful, and hardy, Nords are famous for their resistance to cold, even magical frost, and are known for their prowess as warriors."

"The most naturally talented warriors in Tamriel, the dark Redguards of Hammerfell seem to have been created for battle. In addition to their affinity for weaponry, Redguards are blessed with hardy constitutions and quickness of foot."

Taking into account that Bosmer, even more than Khajit, had an affinity for stealth from the very first game, I feel it would be a travesty to remove their talent for stealth from the game.

Well if going by that then Argonians should be Magic and Stamina not Tanks.

FineFeathered

Way too many page long quote things going on.

Bretons: They were KNOWN for their resistance to magicka. It was awesome in ES IV. It was nerfed by half in Skyrim. And now you're nerfing it to the point that NORDS have better resistance to magicka than BRETONS? This is completely lore contrary. The change for Bretons should be what Nords is proposed to be, and the change to Nords is what Bretons are proposed to be (or not at all for Nords, as Bretons donn't have the other resistances at all)

This is making Nords more lore-friendly to Breton-lore than Bretons are! And with necromancy, Bretons are known necromancy fighters. But not without that magicka resist.

(so put that back) (please)

TheTraveler

Koronach wrote: »

TheTraveler wrote: »

I don't understand people who want races to be merely cosmetic. Since the inception of TES, the races have had different talents. And hey, check here how Bosmer and Kahjit were represented in the first TES game, Arena:

"Bosmer hail from the province of Valenwood. They are a people of the forests, matching their features to all that is found growing in the green woods of their homeland. They are known to be extremely agile and quick. Bosmer receive their (level / 3) as a bonus to hit and damage with any bow weapon. They are well suited towards any class, although their nimbleness serves them best in any art involving thievery. "

"Khajiit are expert climbers, able to scale chasm wall sides with speed unmatched by any other race. " Interesting, nothing about stealth in the Kahjit description. (Although using common sense, real cats ARE stealthy, so it makes kind of sense that they would be stealthy)

Interestingly, Argonians were adept at thievery/sleight of hand and *gasp* magic:
"Argonians are a highly evolved race of reptilians, at home in the marsh-like environment from which they hail. Origins of the Argonians can be traced to their homeland, Black Marsh. They are known for their intelligence, agility and speed. Because of their reptilian nature, Argonians do not tire easily while swimming, and seldom drown. They can also swim faster than any other race. They are adept in any art involving the arcane, or involving thieving and sleight of hand. " So definitely makes sense to have them as magica users and Kahjit as stamina users.

Let's see the races in TES 2, Daggerfall:

"The tall, golden-skinned High Elves are easily equal to the Bretons in sorcerous ability due to their high Intelligence, force of will, and agility. They are more susceptible to spells than the people of High Rock, but by their nature are more completely immune to paralysation." (So stun immunity in Altmer would have made sense)

"The strange reptilian people of Black Marsh seem equally comfortable in the water - surely no other race of Tamriel can swim faster or longer than Argonians. An intelligent, quick-footed, and agile people, Argonians often train in magery and thievery"

"The finest archers in Tamriel, the Wood Elves of Valenwood are nimble and as quick as the wind. Because of the curious natures and natural agility, Wood Elves often become thieves "

"Highly intelligent and willful, the Bretons have a natural bond with the forces of magicka. Many great sorcerers have come out of High Rock, and even the humblest Breton can boast a high resistance to the destructive powers of magicka."

"The dusky, fire-eyed Dark Elves of Morrowind are a strong, intelligent, and quick-footed people. They are legendary sorcerors and warriors, with a prowess with sword and bow rivalling that of the Redguards and Wood Elves." I guess they were always hybrids, so I have to concede that one, but a fire damage bonus can benefit both mag and stam users; stam users simply need to enchant their weapon with flame damage to benefit.

Ok, here enters the seed for Khajit stealth ability : "Descended from the great cats of the desert, the Khajiit are an agile, intelligent, and hardy people. Some chose to decorate their faces in the style of their feline ancestors, and most all, given their inclination, make excellent thieves due to their Climbing abilities." (Not stealth yet, but climbing, though climbing wouldn't translate to the later games, hence stealth, of course).

"The citizens of Skyrim are a tall and fair-haired people. Strong, willful, and hardy, Nords are famous for their resistance to cold, even magical frost, and are known for their prowess as warriors."

"The most naturally talented warriors in Tamriel, the dark Redguards of Hammerfell seem to have been created for battle. In addition to their affinity for weaponry, Redguards are blessed with hardy constitutions and quickness of foot."

Taking into account that Bosmer, even more than Khajit, had an affinity for stealth from the very first game, I feel it would be a travesty to remove their talent for stealth from the game.

Well if going by that then Argonians should be Magic and Stamina not Tanks.

But if you look at the passive bonuses they had, one of them was in health. I think they make good tanks because of the combination of health passive and healing. That ended up being kind of incidental, so they make both good healers and tanks, and why shouldn't they be magica tanks? Magica tank is also a thing...

NobleMatias

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

You didn't address rampant stupidity like Bosmers losing their stealth bonus. Yet again PVE gets screwed because of PVP.

Bosmer now have a mechanic that allows them to be the fastest resource harvesters in the game. Please for the love of god stop complaining about the Bosmer's stealth being taken away. they are given other special skills to make up, and for you to complain about 3m of detect just makes me laugh so damn much. The Bosmer race literally got a buff when comparing all the race changes [edit].

[edited for baiting]

Koronach

TheTraveler wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

TheTraveler wrote: »

I don't understand people who want races to be merely cosmetic. Since the inception of TES, the races have had different talents. And hey, check here how Bosmer and Kahjit were represented in the first TES game, Arena:

"Bosmer hail from the province of Valenwood. They are a people of the forests, matching their features to all that is found growing in the green woods of their homeland. They are known to be extremely agile and quick. Bosmer receive their (level / 3) as a bonus to hit and damage with any bow weapon. They are well suited towards any class, although their nimbleness serves them best in any art involving thievery. "

"Khajiit are expert climbers, able to scale chasm wall sides with speed unmatched by any other race. " Interesting, nothing about stealth in the Kahjit description. (Although using common sense, real cats ARE stealthy, so it makes kind of sense that they would be stealthy)

Interestingly, Argonians were adept at thievery/sleight of hand and *gasp* magic:
"Argonians are a highly evolved race of reptilians, at home in the marsh-like environment from which they hail. Origins of the Argonians can be traced to their homeland, Black Marsh. They are known for their intelligence, agility and speed. Because of their reptilian nature, Argonians do not tire easily while swimming, and seldom drown. They can also swim faster than any other race. They are adept in any art involving the arcane, or involving thieving and sleight of hand. " So definitely makes sense to have them as magica users and Kahjit as stamina users.

Let's see the races in TES 2, Daggerfall:

"The tall, golden-skinned High Elves are easily equal to the Bretons in sorcerous ability due to their high Intelligence, force of will, and agility. They are more susceptible to spells than the people of High Rock, but by their nature are more completely immune to paralysation." (So stun immunity in Altmer would have made sense)

"The strange reptilian people of Black Marsh seem equally comfortable in the water - surely no other race of Tamriel can swim faster or longer than Argonians. An intelligent, quick-footed, and agile people, Argonians often train in magery and thievery"

"The finest archers in Tamriel, the Wood Elves of Valenwood are nimble and as quick as the wind. Because of the curious natures and natural agility, Wood Elves often become thieves "

"Highly intelligent and willful, the Bretons have a natural bond with the forces of magicka. Many great sorcerers have come out of High Rock, and even the humblest Breton can boast a high resistance to the destructive powers of magicka."

"The dusky, fire-eyed Dark Elves of Morrowind are a strong, intelligent, and quick-footed people. They are legendary sorcerors and warriors, with a prowess with sword and bow rivalling that of the Redguards and Wood Elves." I guess they were always hybrids, so I have to concede that one, but a fire damage bonus can benefit both mag and stam users; stam users simply need to enchant their weapon with flame damage to benefit.

Ok, here enters the seed for Khajit stealth ability : "Descended from the great cats of the desert, the Khajiit are an agile, intelligent, and hardy people. Some chose to decorate their faces in the style of their feline ancestors, and most all, given their inclination, make excellent thieves due to their Climbing abilities." (Not stealth yet, but climbing, though climbing wouldn't translate to the later games, hence stealth, of course).

"The citizens of Skyrim are a tall and fair-haired people. Strong, willful, and hardy, Nords are famous for their resistance to cold, even magical frost, and are known for their prowess as warriors."

"The most naturally talented warriors in Tamriel, the dark Redguards of Hammerfell seem to have been created for battle. In addition to their affinity for weaponry, Redguards are blessed with hardy constitutions and quickness of foot."

Taking into account that Bosmer, even more than Khajit, had an affinity for stealth from the very first game, I feel it would be a travesty to remove their talent for stealth from the game.

Well if going by that then Argonians should be Magic and Stamina not Tanks.

But if you look at the passive bonuses they had, one of them was in health. I think they make good tanks because of the combination of health passive and healing. That ended up being kind of incidental, so they make both good healers and tanks, and why shouldn't they be magica tanks? Magica tank is also a thing...

I just feel Magic and Stam fit them more, the TG and DB are filled with them and the elite DB faction the Shadowscales. Tank just doesn't come to mind when I think of Argonians from all the TES games combined.

NobleMatias

anadandy wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

How are khajiits and Bosmer a prime example? Literally all that has changed for Bosmer is they are able to spot sneaking people in PVP and can run faster after a dodge roll

For sake of accuracy, that is not all that's changed for Bosmer.

Increases experience gain in Bow Skill Line by 15%, decreases fall damage taken by 10% → No changes
Y’ffre’s Endurance: 21% Stamina Recovery → Increases your Stamina Recovery by 258.
Resist Affliction: 6% Max Stamina and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance → Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and your Poison Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Poisoned status effect.
Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.

Bosmer are also losing disease resistance and 10% damage bonus when in stealth. They are swapping stealth radius for stealth detection and gaining that movement buff.

[edit] Have you tested in the PTS the difference in damage and utility, probably not. Do some testing. I can tell just by looking at your tag pic that you love that Bosmer. Go test and I am certain you will still love that Bosmer.

NobleMatias

And about that damage bonus in stealth. Who has that bonus now...... no one. [edit]

[edited for baiting]

EmilyEstelle

Well, mine was just a suggestion, and if a movement speed in stealth was smallish, and stacked with the gear/vampire effect it wouldn't negate the value of those perks/set effects it would enhance them. (as long as they can't stealth around faster than a horse.... ah, the good old days...) Or, keep the stealth, reduce the cost, and just leave it at that. Point is, Bosmer are meant to be stealthy, I'm sure they can come up with something better than doing away with it all together. Saying something is a bad idea without offering some sort of idea in return isn't very productive.

Cundu_Ertur

NobleMatias wrote: »

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

You didn't address rampant stupidity like Bosmers losing their stealth bonus. Yet again PVE gets screwed because of PVP.

Bosmer now have a mechanic that allows them to be the fastest resource harvesters in the game. Please for the love of god stop complaining about the Bosmer's stealth being taken away. they are given other special skills to make up, and for you to complain about 3m of detect just makes me laugh so damn much. The Bosmer race literally got a buff when comparing all the race changes, quit crying.

Please for the love of God stop trying to dismiss other people's opinions because they have the temerity to not agree with your perfect all-knowing wisdom. (note, the description of your wisdom is sarcastic icymi)

The fact is, that despite saying "so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives," the devs in actually completely removed stealth bonus from the Bosmer entirely. The statement of the intent and the result do not match. We are completely within our rights to point this out. We are also within our rights to point out the substantial lore that says that Wood Elves are adept at stealth. We are within our rights to point out how this lore, and our experience with other games, informed our choices regarding this race and how we choose to play it. You do NOT get to dictate to us how we choose to play, how we choose to feel, or how we choose to express our deep dissatisfaction with the change as it currently stands.

Yes, we got some significant benefit from this change, as do the Khajiit. That's not the issue. The issue is that we are losing something that is core to how many people see the Bosmer as a race. It is like telling Redguards that they are no longer masters of weapons but magic instead.

ZOS_RogerJ

Just a friendly reminder to keep the thread on-topic, constructive and civil. While we completely understand everyone has their own opinions, thoughts, feelings and even frustrations, we want the forums to be a civil and constructive platform for the game and it's community as a whole.

NobleMatias

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

You didn't address rampant stupidity like Bosmers losing their stealth bonus. Yet again PVE gets screwed because of PVP.

Bosmer now have a mechanic that allows them to be the fastest resource harvesters in the game. Please for the love of god stop complaining about the Bosmer's stealth being taken away. they are given other special skills to make up, and for you to complain about 3m of detect just makes me laugh so damn much. The Bosmer race literally got a buff when comparing all the race changes, quit crying.

Please for the love of God stop trying to dismiss other people's opinions because they have the temerity to not agree with your perfect all-knowing wisdom. (note, the description of your wisdom is sarcastic icymi)

The fact is, that despite saying "so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives," the devs in actually completely removed stealth bonus from the Bosmer entirely. The statement of the intent and the result do not match. We are completely within our rights to point this out. We are also within our rights to point out the substantial lore that says that Wood Elves are adept at stealth. We are within our rights to point out how this lore, and our experience with other games, informed our choices regarding this race and how we choose to play it. You do NOT get to dictate to us how we choose to play, how we choose to feel, or how we choose to express our deep dissatisfaction with the change as it currently stands.

Yes, we got some significant benefit from this change, as do the Khajiit. That's not the issue. The issue is that we are losing something that is core to how many people see the Bosmer as a race. It is like telling Redguards that they are no longer masters of weapons but magic instead.

I will be an constructive as possible because it seems I am hurting some persons feelings.

In the case of a Bosmer and a Khajiit. What has replaced the stealth damage a and sneak potential? Bosmer now are able to roll dodge and gain a 20% boost to speed, I can imagine them playing with their victims regarding certain sets, and are able to spot enemies at 3m the cost of a 3m sneak. Khajiit on the other hand have always been the sneakiest In every Elder Scrolls entry, hence why they still have their sneaky style. Neither have the damage bonus as before, and both are based on lore. Bosmer being that they turn into ravenous hunting beasts if you mess with their forest, and khajit for being master thief's with a whole back story and Daedric Items to back it up.

I would trade 3m of stealth for a 20% speed boost any day. I know majority who love the changes are not on the forums voicing frustrations when simply should not be as big a deal, so peeps should be calm. Now it would be warranted if people of which I will not mention, can back the statements with proof, data, and statistics, this will make me and many others take what is said more seriously. I have shown these. The Bosmer race will still be viable in a sneaky role and honestly be able to roll out of danger and pop into sneak mode with a 20% speed boost. This enables a quick getaway.

I am trying to show everyone that the team at ZOS have really number crunched on the races while providing unique buffs, and they are indeed balanced. Every race is now viable. But of course tweaking would not hurt for the sake of diversity. I could name a ton of lore related reasons to tweak the races.

Kalle_Demos

I agree with the sentiment expressed by other players regarding lore, diversity and uniqueness. The proposed changes seem to accomplish the opposite of goals stated. Changes to Bosmer stealth, Dunmer elemental damage and magic nerf, Argonian resistance and other examples covered in previous posts are contrary to long established lore, limit diversity and strip the various races of the unique flavor and unique play styles that they have been known for and that players have built upon for years.

I also noticed that we are being hit with more nerfs. Spending our time leveling, collecting sets, etc only to become weaker again and again with every update is not fun. Learning that the racials we based builds and characters on are being nerfed, rearranged and in some cases gutted is much less fun. Highlighting this post to point out that players attachment to our characters go beyond math:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455138/passive-aggression-against-the-bosmer-a-letter-to-the-developers/p1

BlueRaven

NobleMatias wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

You didn't address rampant stupidity like Bosmers losing their stealth bonus. Yet again PVE gets screwed because of PVP.

Bosmer now have a mechanic that allows them to be the fastest resource harvesters in the game. Please for the love of god stop complaining about the Bosmer's stealth being taken away. they are given other special skills to make up, and for you to complain about 3m of detect just makes me laugh so damn much. The Bosmer race literally got a buff when comparing all the race changes, quit crying.

Please for the love of God stop trying to dismiss other people's opinions because they have the temerity to not agree with your perfect all-knowing wisdom. (note, the description of your wisdom is sarcastic icymi)

The fact is, that despite saying "so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives," the devs in actually completely removed stealth bonus from the Bosmer entirely. The statement of the intent and the result do not match. We are completely within our rights to point this out. We are also within our rights to point out the substantial lore that says that Wood Elves are adept at stealth. We are within our rights to point out how this lore, and our experience with other games, informed our choices regarding this race and how we choose to play it. You do NOT get to dictate to us how we choose to play, how we choose to feel, or how we choose to express our deep dissatisfaction with the change as it currently stands.

Yes, we got some significant benefit from this change, as do the Khajiit. That's not the issue. The issue is that we are losing something that is core to how many people see the Bosmer as a race. It is like telling Redguards that they are no longer masters of weapons but magic instead.

I will be an constructive as possible because it seems I am hurting some persons feelings.

In the case of a Bosmer and a Khajiit. What has replaced the stealth damage a and sneak potential? Bosmer now are able to roll dodge and gain a 20% boost to speed, I can imagine them playing with their victims regarding certain sets, and are able to spot enemies at 3m the cost of a 3m sneak. Khajiit on the other hand have always been the sneakiest In every Elder Scrolls entry, hence why they still have their sneaky style. Neither have the damage bonus as before, and both are based on lore. Bosmer being that they turn into ravenous hunting beasts if you mess with their forest, and khajit for being master thief's with a whole back story and Daedric Items to back it up.

I would trade 3m of stealth for a 20% speed boost any day. I know majority who love the changes are not on the forums voicing frustrations when simply should not be as big a deal, so peeps should be calm. Now it would be warranted if people of which I will not mention, can back the statements with proof, data, and statistics, this will make me and many others take what is said more seriously. I have shown these. The Bosmer race will still be viable in a sneaky role and honestly be able to roll out of danger and pop into sneak mode with a 20% speed boost. This enables a quick getaway.

I am trying to show everyone that the team at ZOS have really number crunched on the races while providing unique buffs, and they are indeed balanced. Every race is now viable. But of course tweaking would not hurt for the sake of diversity. I could name a ton of lore related reasons to tweak the races.

I am scratching my head on why you think this argument of yours will win any converts. I don’t think you are quite grasping why people are upset with the Bosmer change. The addition of the roll, or the bonus damage from stealth, or what ever, is immaterial. It appears to me no one who is arguing for Bosmers to retain their stealth actually cares what the second half of the passive is.

The point is that bosmers are sneaky and the players who play bosmers like to play sneaky characters. That is what they care about. Not combat. Nor about characters that roll around a lot.

The stealth functionality is being nerfed for bosmers, and ONLY for bosmers. Everyone other race is having their stealth ability stay the same or it’s being boosted.

The roll mechanic is ok. I think rolling in eso is clumsily implemented so when I actually roll it’s by accident. So right now, on live, I have a two part racial I am getting a lot of use of, and it’s changing to a two part racial I will get little use of. So yes I am going to complain.

But even then, if I could only keep part of the old racial I would keep the stealth. In fact if it was changed to 6m of stealth and NOTHING ELSE I would not complain.

To sum up; The stealth mechanic is important to other players. Right now it is being nerfed for them (and me) and they are upset about it (as am I). We don’t care about the roll/speed boost. Stealth is what’s fun.

NobleMatias

BlueRaven wrote: »

I will be an constructive as possible because it seems I am hurting some persons feelings.

In the case of a Bosmer and a Khajiit. What has replaced the stealth damage a and sneak potential? Bosmer now are able to roll dodge and gain a 20% boost to speed, I can imagine them playing with their victims regarding certain sets, and are able to spot enemies at 3m the cost of a 3m sneak. Khajiit on the other hand have always been the sneakiest In every Elder Scrolls entry, hence why they still have their sneaky style. Neither have the damage bonus as before, and both are based on lore. Bosmer being that they turn into ravenous hunting beasts if you mess with their forest, and khajit for being master thief's with a whole back story and Daedric Items to back it up.

I would trade 3m of stealth for a 20% speed boost any day. I know majority who love the changes are not on the forums voicing frustrations when simply should not be as big a deal, so peeps should be calm. Now it would be warranted if people of which I will not mention, can back the statements with proof, data, and statistics, this will make me and many others take what is said more seriously. I have shown these. The Bosmer race will still be viable in a sneaky role and honestly be able to roll out of danger and pop into sneak mode with a 20% speed boost. This enables a quick getaway.

I am trying to show everyone that the team at ZOS have really number crunched on the races while providing unique buffs, and they are indeed balanced. Every race is now viable. But of course tweaking would not hurt for the sake of diversity. I could name a ton of lore related reasons to tweak the races.

I am scratching my head on why you think this argument of yours will win any converts. I don’t think you are quite grasping why people are upset with the Bosmer change. The addition of the roll, or the bonus damage from stealth, or what ever, is immaterial. It appears to me no one who is arguing for Bosmers to retain their stealth actually cares what the second half of the passive is.

The point is that bosmers are sneaky and the players who play bosmers like to play a sneaky characters. That is what they care about. Not combat. Nor about characters that roll around a lot.

The stealth functionality is being nerfed for bosmers, and ONLY for bosmers. Everyone other race is having their stealth ability stay the same or it’s being boosted.

The roll mechanic is ok. I think rolling in eso is clumsily implemented so when I actually roll it’s by accident. So right now, on live, I have a two part racial I am getting a lot of use of, and it’s changing to a two part racial I will get little use of. So yes I am going to complain.

But even then, if I could only keep part of the old racial I would keep the stealth. In fact if it was changed to 6m of stealth and NOTHING ELSE I would not complain.

To sum up; The stealth mechanic is important to other players. Right now it is being nerfed for them (and me) and they are upset about it (as am I). We don’t care about the roll/speed boost. Stealth is what’s fun.

[/quote]

I have been winning people over almost since this race post was posted. You and others can disagree and complain all you want until your blue in the face but unless you can provide an alternative for the whole of the ESO community, not just the people who play Bosmer and like a little bit of stealth, that can change a Bosmer to be more unique compared to other races, then all I hear is people complaining because that is the race they play.

Provide proof that 3m in sneak is a huge deal, and that 20% speed boost into a Nightblades sneak skill is not better for sneaking. How is a 6m Bosmer stealth different from a Khajiit's 5m? Can you make a mechanic that makes a Bosmer have a unique stealth buff? Will that mechanic match the others in lore and balance? You also blatantly disregard people who play with a game pad or controller as for such roll dodging is quite easy and useful, and not a clumsy on accident mistake. It was built into the game for a reason, and a lot of the ESO community play on console as well.

As I conclude all I hear really is gripes, no constructive thoughts. They are saying give me what I want now, not maybe you can make it better this way. All races matter in this game, as do all players, and pandering to the vocal minority is def not the way to go about it. Attack, or I mean talk to me with reason, and thought provoking analogies.

Cundu_Ertur

NobleMatias wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

You didn't address rampant stupidity like Bosmers losing their stealth bonus. Yet again PVE gets screwed because of PVP.

Bosmer now have a mechanic that allows them to be the fastest resource harvesters in the game. Please for the love of god stop complaining about the Bosmer's stealth being taken away. they are given other special skills to make up, and for you to complain about 3m of detect just makes me laugh so damn much. The Bosmer race literally got a buff when comparing all the race changes, quit crying.

Please for the love of God stop trying to dismiss other people's opinions because they have the temerity to not agree with your perfect all-knowing wisdom. (note, the description of your wisdom is sarcastic icymi)

The fact is, that despite saying "so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives," the devs in actually completely removed stealth bonus from the Bosmer entirely. The statement of the intent and the result do not match. We are completely within our rights to point this out. We are also within our rights to point out the substantial lore that says that Wood Elves are adept at stealth. We are within our rights to point out how this lore, and our experience with other games, informed our choices regarding this race and how we choose to play it. You do NOT get to dictate to us how we choose to play, how we choose to feel, or how we choose to express our deep dissatisfaction with the change as it currently stands.

Yes, we got some significant benefit from this change, as do the Khajiit. That's not the issue. The issue is that we are losing something that is core to how many people see the Bosmer as a race. It is like telling Redguards that they are no longer masters of weapons but magic instead.

Khajiit on the other hand have always been the sneakiest In every Elder Scrolls entry, hence why they still have their sneaky style.

Gotta go for a while, but had to ask: wanna bet? C'mon, you know you wanna.

BlueRaven

NobleMatias wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I will be an constructive as possible because it seems I am hurting some persons feelings.

In the case of a Bosmer and a Khajiit. What has replaced the stealth damage a and sneak potential? Bosmer now are able to roll dodge and gain a 20% boost to speed, I can imagine them playing with their victims regarding certain sets, and are able to spot enemies at 3m the cost of a 3m sneak. Khajiit on the other hand have always been the sneakiest In every Elder Scrolls entry, hence why they still have their sneaky style. Neither have the damage bonus as before, and both are based on lore. Bosmer being that they turn into ravenous hunting beasts if you mess with their forest, and khajit for being master thief's with a whole back story and Daedric Items to back it up.

I would trade 3m of stealth for a 20% speed boost any day. I know majority who love the changes are not on the forums voicing frustrations when simply should not be as big a deal, so peeps should be calm. Now it would be warranted if people of which I will not mention, can back the statements with proof, data, and statistics, this will make me and many others take what is said more seriously. I have shown these. The Bosmer race will still be viable in a sneaky role and honestly be able to roll out of danger and pop into sneak mode with a 20% speed boost. This enables a quick getaway.

I am trying to show everyone that the team at ZOS have really number crunched on the races while providing unique buffs, and they are indeed balanced. Every race is now viable. But of course tweaking would not hurt for the sake of diversity. I could name a ton of lore related reasons to tweak the races.

I am scratching my head on why you think this argument of yours will win any converts. I don’t think you are quite grasping why people are upset with the Bosmer change. The addition of the roll, or the bonus damage from stealth, or what ever, is immaterial. It appears to me no one who is arguing for Bosmers to retain their stealth actually cares what the second half of the passive is.

The point is that bosmers are sneaky and the players who play bosmers like to play a sneaky characters. That is what they care about. Not combat. Nor about characters that roll around a lot.

The stealth functionality is being nerfed for bosmers, and ONLY for bosmers. Everyone other race is having their stealth ability stay the same or it’s being boosted.

The roll mechanic is ok. I think rolling in eso is clumsily implemented so when I actually roll it’s by accident. So right now, on live, I have a two part racial I am getting a lot of use of, and it’s changing to a two part racial I will get little use of. So yes I am going to complain.

But even then, if I could only keep part of the old racial I would keep the stealth. In fact if it was changed to 6m of stealth and NOTHING ELSE I would not complain.

To sum up; The stealth mechanic is important to other players. Right now it is being nerfed for them (and me) and they are upset about it (as am I). We don’t care about the roll/speed boost. Stealth is what’s fun.

I have been winning people over almost since this race post was posted. You and others can disagree and complain all you want until your blue in the face but unless you can provide an alternative for the whole of the ESO community, not just the people who play Bosmer and like a little bit of stealth, that can change a Bosmer to be more unique compared to other races, then all I hear is people complaining because that is the race they play.

Provide proof that 3m in sneak is a huge deal, and that 20% speed boost into a Nightblades sneak skill is not better for sneaking. How is a 6m Bosmer stealth different from a Khajiit's 5m? Can you make a mechanic that makes a Bosmer have a unique stealth buff? Will that mechanic match the others in lore and balance? You also blatantly disregard people who play with a game pad or controller as for such roll dodging is quite easy and useful, and not a clumsy on accident mistake. It was built into the game for a reason, and a lot of the ESO community play on console as well.

As I conclude all I hear really is gripes, no constructive thoughts. They are saying give me what I want now, not maybe you can make it better this way. All races matter in this game, as do all players, and pandering to the vocal minority is def not the way to go about it. Attack, or I mean talk to me with reason, and thought provoking analogies.

[/quote]
You want to see numbers? Fine.

3m of additional stealth > 0m of additional stealth. It’s a full 3m better actually (I thought that was obvious).

Show me your numbers that say 0m of extra stealth is better then the 3m of extra stealth. Remember, roll boost has nothing to do with stealth.

NobleMatias

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

You didn't address rampant stupidity like Bosmers losing their stealth bonus. Yet again PVE gets screwed because of PVP.

Bosmer now have a mechanic that allows them to be the fastest resource harvesters in the game. Please for the love of god stop complaining about the Bosmer's stealth being taken away. they are given other special skills to make up, and for you to complain about 3m of detect just makes me laugh so damn much. The Bosmer race literally got a buff when comparing all the race changes, quit crying.

Please for the love of God stop trying to dismiss other people's opinions because they have the temerity to not agree with your perfect all-knowing wisdom. (note, the description of your wisdom is sarcastic icymi)

The fact is, that despite saying "so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives," the devs in actually completely removed stealth bonus from the Bosmer entirely. The statement of the intent and the result do not match. We are completely within our rights to point this out. We are also within our rights to point out the substantial lore that says that Wood Elves are adept at stealth. We are within our rights to point out how this lore, and our experience with other games, informed our choices regarding this race and how we choose to play it. You do NOT get to dictate to us how we choose to play, how we choose to feel, or how we choose to express our deep dissatisfaction with the change as it currently stands.

Yes, we got some significant benefit from this change, as do the Khajiit. That's not the issue. The issue is that we are losing something that is core to how many people see the Bosmer as a race. It is like telling Redguards that they are no longer masters of weapons but magic instead.

Khajiit on the other hand have always been the sneakiest In every Elder Scrolls entry, hence why they still have their sneaky style.

Gotta go for a while, but had to ask: wanna bet? C'mon, you know you wanna.

Yea sure, you wanna play that game.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit

Suthay-raht are the kitties we have seen In almost every Elder Scrolls game, and I assume the ones in ESO, with no other racial difference other than skin change in the character creator, until now. This means I win right?

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ring_of_Khajiiti

A powerful ring just for them sneaky pests.

Besides that point I It would be pretty cool to bring in all the racial differences and play styles of all the different kitties. I mean their might someone out there wanting to play a common house cat right?

NobleMatias

Sorry about the typos and missed words, I am in a position where I have to be quick lol.

NobleMatias

BlueRaven wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I will be an constructive as possible because it seems I am hurting some persons feelings.

In the case of a Bosmer and a Khajiit. What has replaced the stealth damage a and sneak potential? Bosmer now are able to roll dodge and gain a 20% boost to speed, I can imagine them playing with their victims regarding certain sets, and are able to spot enemies at 3m the cost of a 3m sneak. Khajiit on the other hand have always been the sneakiest In every Elder Scrolls entry, hence why they still have their sneaky style. Neither have the damage bonus as before, and both are based on lore. Bosmer being that they turn into ravenous hunting beasts if you mess with their forest, and khajit for being master thief's with a whole back story and Daedric Items to back it up.

I would trade 3m of stealth for a 20% speed boost any day. I know majority who love the changes are not on the forums voicing frustrations when simply should not be as big a deal, so peeps should be calm. Now it would be warranted if people of which I will not mention, can back the statements with proof, data, and statistics, this will make me and many others take what is said more seriously. I have shown these. The Bosmer race will still be viable in a sneaky role and honestly be able to roll out of danger and pop into sneak mode with a 20% speed boost. This enables a quick getaway.

I am trying to show everyone that the team at ZOS have really number crunched on the races while providing unique buffs, and they are indeed balanced. Every race is now viable. But of course tweaking would not hurt for the sake of diversity. I could name a ton of lore related reasons to tweak the races.

I am scratching my head on why you think this argument of yours will win any converts. I don’t think you are quite grasping why people are upset with the Bosmer change. The addition of the roll, or the bonus damage from stealth, or what ever, is immaterial. It appears to me no one who is arguing for Bosmers to retain their stealth actually cares what the second half of the passive is.

The point is that bosmers are sneaky and the players who play bosmers like to play a sneaky characters. That is what they care about. Not combat. Nor about characters that roll around a lot.

The stealth functionality is being nerfed for bosmers, and ONLY for bosmers. Everyone other race is having their stealth ability stay the same or it’s being boosted.

The roll mechanic is ok. I think rolling in eso is clumsily implemented so when I actually roll it’s by accident. So right now, on live, I have a two part racial I am getting a lot of use of, and it’s changing to a two part racial I will get little use of. So yes I am going to complain.

But even then, if I could only keep part of the old racial I would keep the stealth. In fact if it was changed to 6m of stealth and NOTHING ELSE I would not complain.

To sum up; The stealth mechanic is important to other players. Right now it is being nerfed for them (and me) and they are upset about it (as am I). We don’t care about the roll/speed boost. Stealth is what’s fun.

I have been winning people over almost since this race post was posted. You and others can disagree and complain all you want until your blue in the face but unless you can provide an alternative for the whole of the ESO community, not just the people who play Bosmer and like a little bit of stealth, that can change a Bosmer to be more unique compared to other races, then all I hear is people complaining because that is the race they play.

Provide proof that 3m in sneak is a huge deal, and that 20% speed boost into a Nightblades sneak skill is not better for sneaking. How is a 6m Bosmer stealth different from a Khajiit's 5m? Can you make a mechanic that makes a Bosmer have a unique stealth buff? Will that mechanic match the others in lore and balance? You also blatantly disregard people who play with a game pad or controller as for such roll dodging is quite easy and useful, and not a clumsy on accident mistake. It was built into the game for a reason, and a lot of the ESO community play on console as well.

As I conclude all I hear really is gripes, no constructive thoughts. They are saying give me what I want now, not maybe you can make it better this way. All races matter in this game, as do all players, and pandering to the vocal minority is def not the way to go about it. Attack, or I mean talk to me with reason, and thought provoking analogies.

You want to see numbers? Fine.

3m of additional stealth > 0m of additional stealth. It’s a full 3m better actually (I thought that was obvious).

Show me your numbers that say 0m of extra stealth is better then the 3m of extra stealth. Remember, roll boost has nothing to do with stealth.

[/quote]

Stop playing into your own mind games and read. I said compare it to roll dodging speed boost and going into a sneak mode. No saltyness please.

BlueRaven

NobleMatias wrote: »

Stop playing into your own mind games and read. I said compare it to roll dodging speed boost and going into a sneak mode. No saltyness please.

No one cares about the roll. How is this hard for you to understand? The roll and speed does not matter.

It’s like you are trying to say socks are more useful then legos. Or as someone else said a sledgehammer is more useful at breaking rocks then a bike, when we just want the bike.

The roll does not get you by mobs with out them seeing you.

Sneaking is what a Bosmer IS. It’s what they DO. It’s what the lore says they do, it’s why people play them. No one created a Bosmer because they thought “Maybe one day we will get a roll speed boost! Until then I guess I will just have to live with the stealth boost.” They made their bosmers to be sneaky!

Their lore says they steal things. There is quests in the game that require stealth. Stealth is useful to get into delves without being seen and not every Bosmer is a NB or a vampire.

Stealth and combat mechanics are not the same thing. Stealth boost is more like the argonians swim boost or the kahjit pick pocket buff. It’s something that is intrinsic to the race across many ES games. It’s their bedrock that all the other abilities should spring from.

The roll is just a gimmick. It’s a “sure whatever” mechanic that has no soul. If tomorrow it turned into a sprint, block, or a jump mechanic, it would mean the same thing to Bosmer lore. In other words it means nothing to Bosmer or what they are.

NobleMatias

BlueRaven wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

Stop playing into your own mind games and read. I said compare it to roll dodging speed boost and going into a sneak mode. No saltyness please.

No one cares about the roll. How is this hard for you to understand? The roll and speed does not matter.

It’s like you are trying to say socks are more useful then legos. Or as someone else said a sledgehammer is more useful at breaking rocks then a bike, when we just want the bike.

The roll does not get you by mobs with out them seeing you.

Sneaking is what a Bosmer IS. It’s what they DO. It’s what the lore says they do, it’s why people play them. No one created a Bosmer because they thought “Maybe one day we will get a roll speed boost! Until then I guess I will just have to live with the stealth boost.” They made their bosmers to be sneaky!

Their lore says they steal things. There is quests in the game that require stealth. Stealth is useful to get into delves without being seen and not every Bosmer is a NB or a vampire.

Stealth and combat mechanics are not the same thing. Stealth boost is more like the argonians swim boost or the kahjit pick pocket buff. It’s something that is intrinsic to the race across many ES games. It’s their bedrock that all the other abilities should spring from.

The roll is just a gimmick. It’s a “sure whatever” mechanic that has no soul. If tomorrow it turned into a sprint, block, or a jump mechanic, it would mean the same thing to Bosmer lore. In other words it means nothing to Bosmer or what they are.

I already gotten what you meant because you stated that the first time, the roll and speed does not matter to you and some others, I got it, do you got it?

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bosmer

THE WILD HUNT, is where ZOS is basing the new traits and the fact bosmers have an affinity for bow and arrow. The new roll dodge plays in very well with the bow passive that also grants speed boost and it turns out to be a 50% speed boost, which is why most youtubers that test the game say its kind of OP. Now I can attest most people play Bosmer with a bow in mind and I am sure ZOS knows this fact.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Bow

Now I will compare both the old and new. 3m of sneak means it will be a tad easier to sneak up and get closer to a target without them realizing, and honestly its not a huge boost in terms of math. Now we take a race passive that goes right along with the bow passive. Using a roll dodge which many players do to get out of harms way and give safe distance between a hunter and its prey. This gives 50% speed boost to escape, use a skill, sneak, hide, prepare defense or attack etc.

ZOS and most players want a race to feel unique when playing. Would you want it to where Bosmer have the sneak and khajiit didn't? Or each race has an equal amount, not very unique this way but you will have your little bit of close up sneak. I am sure players who play khajiit would have a blast roll dodging and playing around with the mousy Bosmer like a ball of yarn.

Now you could come up with something completely different, like a new mechanic. Here is one that comes from the top of my head. You can make a Bosmer more sneaky after a dodge roll, or make them enter stealth faster. WOW that was so hard to come up with, I am surprised I did, my head hurts.

NobleMatias

Both roll dodge and sneak are game mechanics meant to be utilized by a player. No gimmicks here.

Moonsorrow

Seraphayel wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

So everyone playing this game is a pve dps?

I wonder how many times had to remind about that already...

If not the changes are even less significant because something like DPS can't be transferred into a PvP environment. And if it's really about PvP the defensive passives might be more important than anything else. The Bosmer and Khajiit stealth nerf might be an issue in PvP but the changes to the "meta Magicka" or "meta Stamina" racials... not so much.

You know nothing sadly. All the % modifier changes even alone make the pvp extreme builds nerfed BIG time. Not bothering to even explain, done it already with several examples. Class reps already confirmed what i said was true. So you dont need to start over when you obviously have no idea, sorry.