Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21

NobleMatias

For all the peeps wanting sneak back for the Bosmer. I hope you guys get it back, I genuinely hope you are able to get a little sneak bonus because that would mean you would lose that speed boost, and that makes me happy ; }. If you lose that speed boost then me and many others will have an easier time killing you in PVP. So zos please give back the sneak bonus to Bosmer and its players so both them and the many wanting to kill them in PVP can be happy. While your at it give the khajiit the speed boost so we can use it against them.

NobleMatias

TheTraveler wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

Yea sure, you wanna play that game.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit

Suthay-raht are the kitties we have seen In almost every Elder Scrolls game, and I assume the ones in ESO, with no other racial difference other than skin change in the character creator, until now. This means I win right?

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ring_of_Khajiiti

A powerful ring just for them sneaky pests.

Besides that point I It would be pretty cool to bring in all the racial differences and play styles of all the different kitties. I mean their might someone out there wanting to play a common house cat right?

Let's talk about actual TES game-play mechanic tradition in addition to "lore" . The lore you are quoting was only introduced in later TES games.

I clearly showed you in an earlier post, how Bosmer were the only "thief" race in the first Elder Scrolls game. In the second game, Argonians were presented as being sneaky, and only in the second game does Kahjiit come in as thieves, but not due to stealth - due to their climbing ability. https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Races_(Daggerfall)

Khajiit in Arena: https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit_(Arena) As you can see, no sneaking or thievery, but the Bosmer most definitely are thieves:
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Bosmer_(Arena)

LOL those are not proper links to show what you are talking about. I am not sure If you have played those games but races did not get a boost to skills, this was all chosen by the player in the character creator at the start of the game. The only boost the races got were to base stats. The site you are on is not the best site to look for Elder Scrolls lore and mechanics, but this site is.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Daggerfall#Character_Information

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Races

get your facts straight before posting false information.

NobleMatias

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

You didn't address rampant stupidity like Bosmers losing their stealth bonus. Yet again PVE gets screwed because of PVP.

Bosmer now have a mechanic that allows them to be the fastest resource harvesters in the game. Please for the love of god stop complaining about the Bosmer's stealth being taken away. they are given other special skills to make up, and for you to complain about 3m of detect just makes me laugh so damn much. The Bosmer race literally got a buff when comparing all the race changes, quit crying.

Please for the love of God stop trying to dismiss other people's opinions because they have the temerity to not agree with your perfect all-knowing wisdom. (note, the description of your wisdom is sarcastic icymi)

The fact is, that despite saying "so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives," the devs in actually completely removed stealth bonus from the Bosmer entirely. The statement of the intent and the result do not match. We are completely within our rights to point this out. We are also within our rights to point out the substantial lore that says that Wood Elves are adept at stealth. We are within our rights to point out how this lore, and our experience with other games, informed our choices regarding this race and how we choose to play it. You do NOT get to dictate to us how we choose to play, how we choose to feel, or how we choose to express our deep dissatisfaction with the change as it currently stands.

Yes, we got some significant benefit from this change, as do the Khajiit. That's not the issue. The issue is that we are losing something that is core to how many people see the Bosmer as a race. It is like telling Redguards that they are no longer masters of weapons but magic instead.

Khajiit on the other hand have always been the sneakiest In every Elder Scrolls entry, hence why they still have their sneaky style.

Gotta go for a while, but had to ask: wanna bet? C'mon, you know you wanna.

Yea sure, you wanna play that game.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit

Suthay-raht are the kitties we have seen In almost every Elder Scrolls game, and I assume the ones in ESO, with no other racial difference other than skin change in the character creator, until now. This means I win right?

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ring_of_Khajiiti

A powerful ring just for them sneaky pests.

Besides that point I It would be pretty cool to bring in all the racial differences and play styles of all the different kitties. I mean their might someone out there wanting to play a common house cat right?

Sorry, but no. What race had the biggest boost in hiding in Morrowind and Oblivion? Bosmer. What race has as their most famous national epic the Meh Ayleidion (or The Thousand Uses of Hiding)? Bosmer. What race has the rite of theft, where villages and tribes would steal each other's most precious artifacts, without drawing either blood or attention? Bosmer.
Did you even play Morrowind or Oblivion? Khajiit didn't have hiding as their primary skill, it was a secondary skill with a +5; Bosmer got a +10. The only reason why Bosmer didn't have hiding as a primary skill in Skyrim was that each race got only one primary (which was bow for the Bosmer); and the Khajiits' previous primary, Acrobatics, no longer existed (well, in Oblivion they also had hand-to-hand as a primary, and it, too, was removed from Skyrim). Also, the Khajiit were digitigrade in Morrowind, so quite different in the character creator, which you would know if you'd played it. It was hard to miss, since Khajiit couldn't wear most shoes, iirc.

And for someone who is gaining lots of converts, you have an amazing low number of agrees on your posts. Almost as if no-one agreed with you.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Races

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Races

These are the skills from Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. These games are really the only games you can get the way races are, skill wise. The other games only have base stats to play off, character creation is a bit different in older titles. If you look at the skills, then yes Bosmer were a bit sneakier, but at the same time did not have security skill which was used for lock picking and thievery. In Skyrim the role switched, Khajiit were more sneaky and Bosmer had the lockpicking, but in every Elder Scrolls title, Bosmer had been the bow using master marksman, having that skill always at the top compared to other races.

The Suthay-raht Cats, are the epitome of the thief. They have acrobatics along with sneak, security, lockpicking, and short blade=knifes, In every title after Arena and Daggerfall.

Bosmer have some lore in regards to thievery but way more on Archery, and the Suthay-raht Khajiit have books, lore and their whole being skill wise is tailored to thievery, although I think lore wise a lot of Khajiit don't consider their mischievous behavior something as low as thievery, they just think finders keepers, lol.

Bosmer= best race with a bow, and have some thievery potential.

Suthay-raht Khajiit= best sub-race at stealing, period.

I only say the things I say because I want all races to be unique in the game world and at the same time balanced. I do wish that you get your sneak back, it would make life easier for both the players that fight Bosmer and the players that play Bosmer. I would also like ZOS to bring in all the sub races from the lore, people would have so much fun. But the recent changes to khajiit allready sort of bring that in the way they are kinda good at every role.

So I agree, give Bosmer back the small sneak bonus and take away that speed boost, it will make it better for me and you ; }.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit

"Rajhin
The Footpad / The Silent Walker
The thief-god of the Khajiiti, legend holds that Rajhin grew up in the Black Kiergo section of Senchal. In life, Rajhin was the most infamous burglar in Elsweyr's history, said to have stolen a tattoo from the neck of the Empress Kintyra as she slept. He is accredited with using the Ring of Khajiiti in his thievery, making the ring famous. After his death, Rajhin was inculcated among the Khajiit gods, to serve as an example to them of cleverness and adroit ability. His blessing is most often asked for before undertaking activities of a less-than-lawful nature."

Khakjiit have 3 deities/gods That are associated with cunning, cleverness, deceit, and thievery. You really cannot beat that.

Cundu_Ertur

The speed bonus wasn't to compensate for the loss of sneak; it was to compensate for the loss of the bonus to damage out of stealth, which is how Khajiit ended up with a buff to health, stamina, and majicka.

I don't disagree with you on the stealthy lore and culture of the Khajiit. I don't think I've written anything to imply that, but if I did it was poorly worded. Obviously, the Khajiit have always had a stealthy, thievery-filled background; there's even more that you haven't referenced. So I have no problem with them getting a bonus, even a better bonus than before. I have no problem with them having the only racial pick-pocket buff (though I am certainly envious). At no point have I asked that they be nerfed, in any way. I'm just asking for the devs to honor what they said, that they were going to preserve stealth for both of the races that had it before in some way. They did so for the Khajiit, they did not for the Bosmer.


That said, I have to wonder how much of the movement bonus is actually going to survive testing.


edit to add: I do agree with you that UESP is a better resource than most.

DYSEQTA

It is blatantly obvious that these changes do not promote freedom and play-as-you-want. In fact they do the exact opposite the railroad you into choosing certain races for certain roles.

Racial passives should be flavour only—providing little to no impact on core game mechanics at all. Nords being frost resistant, Dunmer being resistant to lava (should just be fire I think), Bosmer and Khajit being able to easily avoid detection, as they are products of environmental exposure and evolution. Argonians being able to swim faster is a great racial passive example.

It does not matter if most Orcs don't have a propensity for magic for example, some do; the exceptions to the rule. Our characters are supposed to embody that idea entirely. You do this yourselves with NPCs all over the place throughout the game. Shalidor is a Nord (well I think he is...) for instance, Abner Tharn an Imperial and both powerful mages.

When I heard that a rework of racial passives were coming I assumed you were going to leave the flavour ones that exist already, perhaps add some more, and let us then add character passives so we could shape our characters as we wanted. You know like play-how-you-want and all that.

I would love to be able to create a Nord character who chose to focus on magical studies rather than following what all his peers did and as such became a master of spell casting (I choose a magikca buff). I should be able to make an Altmer and chose a stamina or other weapon related buff to make her unique.

I want to be able to have a unique character that does what I want it to do, and well, regardless of racial preferences.

P.S. As others have already pointed to have ultimate flexibility in character creation damage for weapons should be buffed based on your rank in the linked skill line and not the resource pool they draw from. The resource pool should be just that; a measure of the amount of action that can be taken of that type not it's magnitude. That would go a mile toward making hybrid play viable whilst having no impact on specialists at all.

NobleMatias

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

The speed bonus wasn't to compensate for the loss of sneak; it was to compensate for the loss of the bonus to damage out of stealth, which is how Khajiit ended up with a buff to health, stamina, and majicka.

I don't disagree with you on the stealthy lore and culture of the Khajiit. I don't think I've written anything to imply that, but if I did it was poorly worded. Obviously, the Khajiit have always had a stealthy, thievery-filled background; there's even more that you haven't referenced. So I have no problem with them getting a bonus, even a better bonus than before. I have no problem with them having the only racial pick-pocket buff (though I am certainly envious). At no point have I asked that they be nerfed, in any way. I'm just asking for the devs to honor what they said, that they were going to preserve stealth for both of the races that had it before in some way. They did so for the Khajiit, they did not for the Bosmer.


That said, I have to wonder how much of the movement bonus is actually going to survive testing.


edit to add: I do agree with you that UESP is a better resource than most.

I am glad we can come to an agreement and that you have been humbled.

I think that the speed boost will stay and launch with the DLC. For some reason I think that Gill and the team have gone through the changes and stat crunching rigorously and determined that the speed stays before the pts launch happened. Some might not agree but I dont think ZOS will adhere to them. Hopefully I am wrong. I would not mind Bosmer getting a 2m stealth bonus while taking away 10% speed.

BlueRaven

NobleMatias wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Races

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Races

These are the skills from Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. These games are really the only games you can get the way races are, skill wise. The other games only have base stats to play off, character creation is a bit different in older titles. If you look at the skills, then yes Bosmer were a bit sneakier, but at the same time did not have security skill which was used for lock picking and thievery. In Skyrim the role switched, Khajiit were more sneaky and Bosmer had the lockpicking, but in every Elder Scrolls title, Bosmer had been the bow using master marksman, having that skill always at the top compared to other races.

The Suthay-raht Cats, are the epitome of the thief. They have acrobatics along with sneak, security, lockpicking, and short blade=knifes, In every title after Arena and Daggerfall.

Bosmer have some lore in regards to thievery but way more on Archery, and the Suthay-raht Khajiit have books, lore and their whole being skill wise is tailored to thievery, although I think lore wise a lot of Khajiit don't consider their mischievous behavior something as low as thievery, they just think finders keepers, lol.

Bosmer= best race with a bow, and have some thievery potential.

Suthay-raht Khajiit= best sub-race at stealing, period.

I only say the things I say because I want all races to be unique in the game world and at the same time balanced. I do wish that you get your sneak back, it would make life easier for both the players that fight Bosmer and the players that play Bosmer. I would also like ZOS to bring in all the sub races from the lore, people would have so much fun. But the recent changes to khajiit allready sort of bring that in the way they are kinda good at every role.

So I agree, give Bosmer back the small sneak bonus and take away that speed boost, it will make it better for me and you ; }.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit

"Rajhin
The Footpad / The Silent Walker
The thief-god of the Khajiiti, legend holds that Rajhin grew up in the Black Kiergo section of Senchal. In life, Rajhin was the most infamous burglar in Elsweyr's history, said to have stolen a tattoo from the neck of the Empress Kintyra as she slept. He is accredited with using the Ring of Khajiiti in his thievery, making the ring famous. After his death, Rajhin was inculcated among the Khajiit gods, to serve as an example to them of cleverness and adroit ability. His blessing is most often asked for before undertaking activities of a less-than-lawful nature."

Khakjiit have 3 deities/gods That are associated with cunning, cleverness, deceit, and thievery. You really cannot beat that.

I don’t think they were argueing that the Kahjit should lose their stealth nor that they don’t have a long history of stealth. It’s just that bosmers have a history of stealth in lore as long as the kahjit does if not longer.

I nor do I think anyone wishing for the restoration of Bosmers stealth want Kahjit to lose theirs. (In fact personally, I would love it if Dunmer and even argonians got a bonus as well. Their history of assassins would suggest a stealth bonus.)

Multiple races are known to be good mages. (Altmer, Dunmer, Breton,..) so let them all have various bonuses to magic use.

Multiple races are known to have great warriors. (Nord, imperial, Redguard, orc...) so let them have various bonuses to melee combat.

Multiple races are known to have great theives and assassins. (Bosmer, Kahjit, Dunmer,...) so let them all have various bonuses to stealth.

This is not an either-or conversation.

Fantasy has a broad field of imagination, but fantasy characters tropes break down to warrior, rouge, healer, and spell caster. Everything else (shaman, Druid, archer, barbarian,...) are just variations of these tropes.

We have ten races, so each race needs to double (even triple) up on these tropes. Having only one race as the logical choice for rogues is bad. There should be two-three (minimum) good race choices for each trope. If these changes go through it will be reduced to one for rogue like characters.

Edit: made some light changes, added a word for clarity.

winterbornb14_ESO

I want a refund for my imperial edition upgrade.

I purchased it only for the percentage health bonus so I could play the BlazePlar tank build. They already nerfed Blazing shield into the dirt and now removing the only thing left for that build just destroys it.

They can refund me in crowns and give me a free Race change and Name change for each toon.

Zo$ needs to get a freeking clue!

NobleMatias

I am going to leave all I said about Bosmer and Khajiit at that, I really dont think discussion on either is warranted anymore. I will instead post all the changes I think should happen to the current race changes, only picking races I think should be changed slightly.

Altmer: leave as is, not really much to say about the all mighty Magic wielding god descendants.

Argonian: Real talk though Argonians needed a nerf to the potion passive. the developers said they were twice as good and this really is why, resource management and recovery. In all honesty it was not a big nerf at all, they in turn gained more magicka and only lost 1000 stat recovery via potions, and taking away the healing received made it where they were not the best at heal tanking because both healing received and healing done played off of each other. Argonian and Bosmer resistance I could care less about because they both kinda have game lore backing them with either way.

Bosmer: In all honesty the race bow passive is OP in my opinion. Some people might be angry they lost the sneak bonus but in reality they gained so much more. In favor of both parties that play and play against Bosmer I would give them 2m sneak back and take away 10% speed bonus from the roll dodge as it accumulates too much speed with other skills. Dems be my final words on the little people.

Breton: I rule in favor of lore and giving the Breton back a little bit more spell resistance, not as much as before but just a bit more and take away the recovery. Reasons being the Nord are now stronger in spell resistance I think lore states otherwise but ZOS is really hammering in that tanky Nord role.

Dunmer: In all honesty I like where the Dunmer are, they have always been the hybrid race lore wise and game wise. Damage stat wise they compare easily to the top magicka and stamina races, at the cost of recovery. But what people do not think about is that they have the ultimate potential to be the best race stat wise especially factoring in certain set bonuses, shackle breaker baby. Besides that point Dunmer can draw from both stat pools and can rely less on recovery, that is epic.

Imperial: Imperial is the race I think is lacking stats in a broad spectrum. Think about it, stats are not % based anymore which makes them less important in min maxing. Now we take the other races like Nord or Dunmer and compare, you can see that what an Imperial has is 1000 to 1400 health and 500 to 750 stamina over the other two, while a Nord has huge mitigation with ulti gen, and a Dunmer has weapon and spell damage. Red Diamond is indeed a cool skill but it cannot scale as good as weapon/spell damage and armor/spell mitigation. End game Imp will be a joke. I would propose they give some other stats or skills, or maybe just give them 500 more in both stam and health. The sword and board is more niche, but I dont mind it as most races have something that is tailored to lore and play style.

Khajiit: Leave as is, they are in a nice moon lit spot. Khajiit are balanced quite well and the stats are based primarily off of lore, regarding the moons Masser and Secunda, hence why they are adequate at all roles, warrior, mage, thief. Very cool indeed.

Nord: Very strong race indeed this patch. Mitigation will be king and with so much, they can now focus on boosting other stats very easily, plus they get a boost to ulti gen, Jesus, talk about power. Nord will be the go to tank, with Imps being an afterthought. The changes I would make to Nord are = giving them a bit less mitigation maybe 1000 to 1500 and giving back that spell resist to Breton, they can keep the ulti as its really cool addition. I think that will bring them in balance with others.

Orc: Really with orcs all i hear is people complaining that they have less base stats, but really they have a little of everything when it comes to a complete warrior. Healing and health proc, stamina proc, base stat gain, healing received, weapon damage and a nice speed boost to top it off. They really are an all around warrior. I would not make any changes because weapon damage can scale way more easily compared to base stats, if a change could be made I would say give them some spell resist because lore.

Redguard: These dudes are really the stamina kings able to hold their own for a very very long period of time. Really no change needed, as they are meant to show their endurance. Uniqueness comes from this fact, and their affinity for weapons is shown by how resource usage is lower for said weapon skills.

These are my thoughts on the matter. I have no racial bias, I think in a competitive multiplayer, and pvp intensive game, most mechanics should be at an even playing field. Id like to hear what everyone else thinks without bias in their hearts and minds. Free yourselves and show me what you got.

JobooAGS

NobleMatias wrote: »

I am going to leave all I said about Bosmer and Khajiit at that, I really dont think discussion on either is warranted anymore. I will instead post all the changes I think should happen to the current race changes, only picking races I think should be changed slightly.

Altmer: leave as is, not really much to say about the all mighty Magic wielding god descendants.

Argonian: Real talk though Argonians needed a nerf to the potion passive. the developers said they were twice as good and this really is why, resource management and recovery. In all honesty it was not a big nerf at all, they in turn gained more magicka and only lost 1000 stat recovery via potions, and taking away the healing received made it where they were not the best at heal tanking because both healing received and healing done played off of each other. Argonian and Bosmer resistance I could care less about because they both kinda have game lore backing them with either way.

Bosmer: In all honesty the race bow passive is OP in my opinion. Some people might be angry they lost the sneak bonus but in reality they gained so much more. In favor of both parties that play and play against Bosmer I would give them 2m sneak back and take away 10% speed bonus from the roll dodge as it accumulates too much speed with other skills. Dems be my final words on the little people.

Breton: I rule in favor of lore and giving the Breton back a little bit more spell resistance, not as much as before but just a bit more and take away the recovery. Reasons being the Nord are now stronger in spell resistance I think lore states otherwise but ZOS is really hammering in that tanky Nord role.

Dunmer: In all honesty I like where the Dunmer are, they have always been the hybrid race lore wise and game wise. Damage stat wise they compare easily to the top magicka and stamina races, at the cost of recovery. But what people do not think about is that they have the ultimate potential to be the best race stat wise especially factoring in certain set bonuses, shackle breaker baby. Besides that point Dunmer can draw from both stat pools and can rely less on recovery, that is epic.

Imperial: Imperial is the race I think is lacking stats in a broad spectrum. Think about it, stats are not % based anymore which makes them less important in min maxing. Now we take the other races like Nord or Dunmer and compare, you can see that what an Imperial has is 1000 to 1400 health and 500 to 750 stamina over the other two, while a Nord has huge mitigation with ulti gen, and a Dunmer has weapon and spell damage. Red Diamond is indeed a cool skill but it cannot scale as good as weapon/spell damage and armor/spell mitigation. End game Imp will be a joke. I would propose they give some other stats or skills, or maybe just give them 500 more in both stam and health. The sword and board is more niche, but I dont mind it as most races have something that is tailored to lore and play style.

Khajiit: Leave as is, they are in a nice moon lit spot. Khajiit are balanced quite well and the stats are based primarily off of lore, regarding the moons Masser and Secunda, hence why they are adequate at all roles, warrior, mage, thief. Very cool indeed.

Nord: Very strong race indeed this patch. Mitigation will be king and with so much, they can now focus on boosting other stats very easily, plus they get a boost to ulti gen, Jesus, talk about power. Nord will be the go to tank, with Imps being an afterthought. The changes I would make to Nord are = giving them a bit less mitigation maybe 1000 to 1500 and giving back that spell resist to Breton, they can keep the ulti as its really cool addition. I think that will bring them in balance with others.

Orc: Really with orcs all i hear is people complaining that they have less base stats, but really they have a little of everything when it comes to a complete warrior. Healing and health proc, stamina proc, base stat gain, healing received, weapon damage and a nice speed boost to top it off. They really are an all around warrior. I would not make any changes because weapon damage can scale way more easily compared to base stats, if a change could be made I would say give them some spell resist because lore.

Redguard: These dudes are really the stamina kings able to hold their own for a very very long period of time. Really no change needed, as they are meant to show their endurance. Uniqueness comes from this fact, and their affinity for weapons is shown by how resource usage is lower for said weapon skills.

These are my thoughts on the matter. I have no racial bias, I think in a competitive multiplayer, and pvp intensive game, most mechanics should be at an even playing field. Id like to hear what everyone else thinks without bias in their hearts and minds. Free yourselves and show me what you got.

It feels like redguard is pigeon holed into classes without spammables such as dk and sorc, therefore going against what zos is trying to do (I mean, they took away dunmer's flame damage, which is arguablly pigeon holing them into magdk or single target mag dps (like nb) at the least). To fix this imo, replace the 8% weapon cost reduction to 3-4% all skills cost reduction.

Nord is overall fine as it is, no changes needed here.

According to many tests, if sustain is ignored (which is usually the case in high end raid guilds due to group support) dunmers are the strongest stam race, even better than pure stam races. Quite interesting, especially when khajiit seems to be overtaking altmer for nb and even templar under those same tests. Not sure what to think about this.

NobleMatias

JobooAGS wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

I am going to leave all I said about Bosmer and Khajiit at that, I really dont think discussion on either is warranted anymore. I will instead post all the changes I think should happen to the current race changes, only picking races I think should be changed slightly.

Altmer: leave as is, not really much to say about the all mighty Magic wielding god descendants.

Argonian: Real talk though Argonians needed a nerf to the potion passive. the developers said they were twice as good and this really is why, resource management and recovery. In all honesty it was not a big nerf at all, they in turn gained more magicka and only lost 1000 stat recovery via potions, and taking away the healing received made it where they were not the best at heal tanking because both healing received and healing done played off of each other. Argonian and Bosmer resistance I could care less about because they both kinda have game lore backing them with either way.

Bosmer: In all honesty the race bow passive is OP in my opinion. Some people might be angry they lost the sneak bonus but in reality they gained so much more. In favor of both parties that play and play against Bosmer I would give them 2m sneak back and take away 10% speed bonus from the roll dodge as it accumulates too much speed with other skills. Dems be my final words on the little people.

Breton: I rule in favor of lore and giving the Breton back a little bit more spell resistance, not as much as before but just a bit more and take away the recovery. Reasons being the Nord are now stronger in spell resistance I think lore states otherwise but ZOS is really hammering in that tanky Nord role.

Dunmer: In all honesty I like where the Dunmer are, they have always been the hybrid race lore wise and game wise. Damage stat wise they compare easily to the top magicka and stamina races, at the cost of recovery. But what people do not think about is that they have the ultimate potential to be the best race stat wise especially factoring in certain set bonuses, shackle breaker baby. Besides that point Dunmer can draw from both stat pools and can rely less on recovery, that is epic.

Imperial: Imperial is the race I think is lacking stats in a broad spectrum. Think about it, stats are not % based anymore which makes them less important in min maxing. Now we take the other races like Nord or Dunmer and compare, you can see that what an Imperial has is 1000 to 1400 health and 500 to 750 stamina over the other two, while a Nord has huge mitigation with ulti gen, and a Dunmer has weapon and spell damage. Red Diamond is indeed a cool skill but it cannot scale as good as weapon/spell damage and armor/spell mitigation. End game Imp will be a joke. I would propose they give some other stats or skills, or maybe just give them 500 more in both stam and health. The sword and board is more niche, but I dont mind it as most races have something that is tailored to lore and play style.

Khajiit: Leave as is, they are in a nice moon lit spot. Khajiit are balanced quite well and the stats are based primarily off of lore, regarding the moons Masser and Secunda, hence why they are adequate at all roles, warrior, mage, thief. Very cool indeed.

Nord: Very strong race indeed this patch. Mitigation will be king and with so much, they can now focus on boosting other stats very easily, plus they get a boost to ulti gen, Jesus, talk about power. Nord will be the go to tank, with Imps being an afterthought. The changes I would make to Nord are = giving them a bit less mitigation maybe 1000 to 1500 and giving back that spell resist to Breton, they can keep the ulti as its really cool addition. I think that will bring them in balance with others.

Orc: Really with orcs all i hear is people complaining that they have less base stats, but really they have a little of everything when it comes to a complete warrior. Healing and health proc, stamina proc, base stat gain, healing received, weapon damage and a nice speed boost to top it off. They really are an all around warrior. I would not make any changes because weapon damage can scale way more easily compared to base stats, if a change could be made I would say give them some spell resist because lore.

Redguard: These dudes are really the stamina kings able to hold their own for a very very long period of time. Really no change needed, as they are meant to show their endurance. Uniqueness comes from this fact, and their affinity for weapons is shown by how resource usage is lower for said weapon skills.

These are my thoughts on the matter. I have no racial bias, I think in a competitive multiplayer, and pvp intensive game, most mechanics should be at an even playing field. Id like to hear what everyone else thinks without bias in their hearts and minds. Free yourselves and show me what you got.

It feels like redguard is pigeon holed into classes without spammables such as dk and sorc, therefore going against what zos is trying to do (I mean, they took away dunmer's flame damage, which is arguablly pigeon holing them into magdk or single target mag dps (like nb) at the least). To fix this imo, replace the 8% weapon cost reduction to 3-4% all skills cost reduction.

Nord is overall fine as it is, no changes needed here.

According to many tests, if sustain is ignored (which is usually the case in high end raid guilds due to group support) dunmers are the strongest stam race, even better than pure stam races. Quite interesting, especially when khajiit seems to be overtaking altmer for nb and even templar under those same tests. Not sure what to think about this.

Interesting observations. But wouldn't Redgaurd play more off of expensive spam weapon skills like steel tornado and power slam, this giving them more weapon affinity like stated in lore, and at the same time be able to use class skill as a way of boosting themselves? Redgaurd already have awesome sustain regardless of this do to Adrenaline Rush, giving them more in everything just makes them OP.

A dunmers flame damage has been replaced with even numbers both stam and mag. Honestly they can go either way or both ways, that is the caveat, they are a hybrid. The caveat with Redgaurd is that they have good sustain and melee weapon affinity.

You really do have to factor in all the different ways of playing, what about playing by yourself, or small scale, everything that envelopes both PVE and PVP. Recovery of stats really do matter and long engagements are key on a ton of builds.

I know the tests you are referring to, and I know the tests are based on meta gear and skill of which will not matter as much with the patch, you have to factor in other build styles now, and gear setups. Besides that point the numbers are really so dang close you basically cant compare without margin of error literally 2% difference with one gear and skill setup.

I understand your reasoning, but think outside the limited raid groups and factor in everything, lore, gear, skills, PVE and PVP.

NobleMatias

Also I would like to state that a Redgaurd can use said 8% for any weapon skills, this includes staff magic skills.

JobooAGS

NobleMatias wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

I am going to leave all I said about Bosmer and Khajiit at that, I really dont think discussion on either is warranted anymore. I will instead post all the changes I think should happen to the current race changes, only picking races I think should be changed slightly.

Altmer: leave as is, not really much to say about the all mighty Magic wielding god descendants.

Argonian: Real talk though Argonians needed a nerf to the potion passive. the developers said they were twice as good and this really is why, resource management and recovery. In all honesty it was not a big nerf at all, they in turn gained more magicka and only lost 1000 stat recovery via potions, and taking away the healing received made it where they were not the best at heal tanking because both healing received and healing done played off of each other. Argonian and Bosmer resistance I could care less about because they both kinda have game lore backing them with either way.

Bosmer: In all honesty the race bow passive is OP in my opinion. Some people might be angry they lost the sneak bonus but in reality they gained so much more. In favor of both parties that play and play against Bosmer I would give them 2m sneak back and take away 10% speed bonus from the roll dodge as it accumulates too much speed with other skills. Dems be my final words on the little people.

Breton: I rule in favor of lore and giving the Breton back a little bit more spell resistance, not as much as before but just a bit more and take away the recovery. Reasons being the Nord are now stronger in spell resistance I think lore states otherwise but ZOS is really hammering in that tanky Nord role.

Dunmer: In all honesty I like where the Dunmer are, they have always been the hybrid race lore wise and game wise. Damage stat wise they compare easily to the top magicka and stamina races, at the cost of recovery. But what people do not think about is that they have the ultimate potential to be the best race stat wise especially factoring in certain set bonuses, shackle breaker baby. Besides that point Dunmer can draw from both stat pools and can rely less on recovery, that is epic.

Imperial: Imperial is the race I think is lacking stats in a broad spectrum. Think about it, stats are not % based anymore which makes them less important in min maxing. Now we take the other races like Nord or Dunmer and compare, you can see that what an Imperial has is 1000 to 1400 health and 500 to 750 stamina over the other two, while a Nord has huge mitigation with ulti gen, and a Dunmer has weapon and spell damage. Red Diamond is indeed a cool skill but it cannot scale as good as weapon/spell damage and armor/spell mitigation. End game Imp will be a joke. I would propose they give some other stats or skills, or maybe just give them 500 more in both stam and health. The sword and board is more niche, but I dont mind it as most races have something that is tailored to lore and play style.

Khajiit: Leave as is, they are in a nice moon lit spot. Khajiit are balanced quite well and the stats are based primarily off of lore, regarding the moons Masser and Secunda, hence why they are adequate at all roles, warrior, mage, thief. Very cool indeed.

Nord: Very strong race indeed this patch. Mitigation will be king and with so much, they can now focus on boosting other stats very easily, plus they get a boost to ulti gen, Jesus, talk about power. Nord will be the go to tank, with Imps being an afterthought. The changes I would make to Nord are = giving them a bit less mitigation maybe 1000 to 1500 and giving back that spell resist to Breton, they can keep the ulti as its really cool addition. I think that will bring them in balance with others.

Orc: Really with orcs all i hear is people complaining that they have less base stats, but really they have a little of everything when it comes to a complete warrior. Healing and health proc, stamina proc, base stat gain, healing received, weapon damage and a nice speed boost to top it off. They really are an all around warrior. I would not make any changes because weapon damage can scale way more easily compared to base stats, if a change could be made I would say give them some spell resist because lore.

Redguard: These dudes are really the stamina kings able to hold their own for a very very long period of time. Really no change needed, as they are meant to show their endurance. Uniqueness comes from this fact, and their affinity for weapons is shown by how resource usage is lower for said weapon skills.

These are my thoughts on the matter. I have no racial bias, I think in a competitive multiplayer, and pvp intensive game, most mechanics should be at an even playing field. Id like to hear what everyone else thinks without bias in their hearts and minds. Free yourselves and show me what you got.

It feels like redguard is pigeon holed into classes without spammables such as dk and sorc, therefore going against what zos is trying to do (I mean, they took away dunmer's flame damage, which is arguablly pigeon holing them into magdk or single target mag dps (like nb) at the least). To fix this imo, replace the 8% weapon cost reduction to 3-4% all skills cost reduction.

Nord is overall fine as it is, no changes needed here.

According to many tests, if sustain is ignored (which is usually the case in high end raid guilds due to group support) dunmers are the strongest stam race, even better than pure stam races. Quite interesting, especially when khajiit seems to be overtaking altmer for nb and even templar under those same tests. Not sure what to think about this.

Interesting observations. But wouldn't Redgaurd play more off of expensive spam weapon skills like steel tornado and power slam, this giving them more weapon affinity like stated in lore, and at the same time be able to use class skill as a way of boosting themselves? Redgaurd already have awesome sustain regardless of this do to Adrenaline Rush, giving them more in everything just makes them OP.

A dunmers flame damage has been replaced with even numbers both stam and mag. Honestly they can go either way or both ways, that is the caveat, they are a hybrid. The caveat with Redgaurd is that they have good sustain and melee weapon affinity.

You really do have to factor in all the different ways of playing, what about playing by yourself, or small scale, everything that envelopes both PVE and PVP. Recovery of stats really do matter and long engagements are key on a ton of builds.

I know the tests you are referring to, and I know the tests are based on meta gear and skill of which will not matter as much with the patch, you have to factor in other build styles now, and gear setups. Besides that point the numbers are really so dang close you basically cant compare without margin of error literally 2% difference with one gear and skill setup.

I understand your reasoning, but think outside the limited raid groups and factor in everything, lore, gear, skills, PVE and PVP.

If you think about it, bosmer not only can easily surpass redguard's adrenline rush with just a stam regen multiplier of 1.47 (which is extremely easy to obtain, 2 ways are 5x medium, having a stam potion up & being a vampire, and simply having a stam potion up and killing something with a 2h ability) which also always ticks unless sprinting or blocking.

Idk altering the passive to 3-4% across everything vs 8% to spin2win, bleeds, rally etc will make them op

When both redguard and bosmer, with the same max stam in those same tests end up with bosmer as better than redguard in a pure parse, it can only mean that bosmer outsustained redguard

In previous elder scrolls games, redguard sustain was unmatched.

Cundu_Ertur

NobleMatias wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

The speed bonus wasn't to compensate for the loss of sneak; it was to compensate for the loss of the bonus to damage out of stealth, which is how Khajiit ended up with a buff to health, stamina, and majicka.

I don't disagree with you on the stealthy lore and culture of the Khajiit. I don't think I've written anything to imply that, but if I did it was poorly worded. Obviously, the Khajiit have always had a stealthy, thievery-filled background; there's even more that you haven't referenced. So I have no problem with them getting a bonus, even a better bonus than before. I have no problem with them having the only racial pick-pocket buff (though I am certainly envious). At no point have I asked that they be nerfed, in any way. I'm just asking for the devs to honor what they said, that they were going to preserve stealth for both of the races that had it before in some way. They did so for the Khajiit, they did not for the Bosmer.


That said, I have to wonder how much of the movement bonus is actually going to survive testing.


edit to add: I do agree with you that UESP is a better resource than most.

I am glad we can come to an agreement and that you have been humbled.

rofl.
Since I had no dispute over the Khajiit I remain unhumble and unconquered. Undaunted, even.

NobleMatias wrote: »

I think that the speed boost will stay and launch with the DLC. For some reason I think that Gill and the team have gone through the changes and stat crunching rigorously and determined that the speed stays before the pts launch happened. Some might not agree but I dont think ZOS will adhere to them. Hopefully I am wrong. I would not mind Bosmer getting a 2m stealth bonus while taking away 10% speed.

I suspect the speed will go down as you suggest, but my hope is for a 3m hiding bonus; I suspect it will be a combination of hide and detect bonus, which will together add to 5m. Someone on the dev team really wanted that detection thing from the new name of the passive (just not anyone with a Bosmer thief). Time will tell.

As for your following post:

Altmer: Agree. High magic, but have to sweat sustain.

Argonian: Largely agree, but honestly I think Argonians have better claim to poison resistance than Bosmer. Traditionally, Argonians had high resistance to both, but had complete immunity to poison in Morrowind iirc. But in recent lore, Argonians were immune to the Spanish Knahatan flu. Maybe that was the thinking. But I'm not particularly adamant either way.

Bosmer: covered to death above.

Breton: Largely agree, but should swap magic resist values with the Nords.

Dunmer: here I'll disagree, but I think you may appreciate it: Move the Lava resistance to the resist flame passive (where it would fit nicely), and put the Orcs' sprint passive in the basic free passive for Dunmer. The Orcs shouldn't have it, and it would be a call back to the Dunmers' old affinity with the vanished skill of athletics. Yes, I know Argonians were top dog with that skill, but that was because it was the master skill for swimming (where the Argonians still shine).

Imperial. So much a pay-to-lose. I think ZOS is so afraid of being accused of PTW that they are erring too far in the other direction. These guys need some love. So I think we largely agree here. Well, maybe except for this: they shouldn't get block and bash bonuses though, Orcs should. The way things are now, they should come equipped with a soup-pot helmet and broom-handle sword.

Khajiit: Agree.

Nord: Largely agree but the ulti gen may need a bit of a tweak.

Orc: I think their stat buffs may need another look. Also, up above I took away their sprint bonus. Orcs don't need a sprint bonus, it doesn't fit their history or culture. They need the block and bash bonus that went to the Imperials, and the skill should be renamed steadfast warrior or resolute warrior. Orcs never need to run from battle, neither do they run towards it. Where the Orc is, the battle is there. This would reflect their bonus to Block in previous games.

Redguard: Agree.

NobleMatias

JobooAGS wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

I am going to leave all I said about Bosmer and Khajiit at that, I really dont think discussion on either is warranted anymore. I will instead post all the changes I think should happen to the current race changes, only picking races I think should be changed slightly.

Altmer: leave as is, not really much to say about the all mighty Magic wielding god descendants.

Argonian: Real talk though Argonians needed a nerf to the potion passive. the developers said they were twice as good and this really is why, resource management and recovery. In all honesty it was not a big nerf at all, they in turn gained more magicka and only lost 1000 stat recovery via potions, and taking away the healing received made it where they were not the best at heal tanking because both healing received and healing done played off of each other. Argonian and Bosmer resistance I could care less about because they both kinda have game lore backing them with either way.

Bosmer: In all honesty the race bow passive is OP in my opinion. Some people might be angry they lost the sneak bonus but in reality they gained so much more. In favor of both parties that play and play against Bosmer I would give them 2m sneak back and take away 10% speed bonus from the roll dodge as it accumulates too much speed with other skills. Dems be my final words on the little people.

Breton: I rule in favor of lore and giving the Breton back a little bit more spell resistance, not as much as before but just a bit more and take away the recovery. Reasons being the Nord are now stronger in spell resistance I think lore states otherwise but ZOS is really hammering in that tanky Nord role.

Dunmer: In all honesty I like where the Dunmer are, they have always been the hybrid race lore wise and game wise. Damage stat wise they compare easily to the top magicka and stamina races, at the cost of recovery. But what people do not think about is that they have the ultimate potential to be the best race stat wise especially factoring in certain set bonuses, shackle breaker baby. Besides that point Dunmer can draw from both stat pools and can rely less on recovery, that is epic.

Imperial: Imperial is the race I think is lacking stats in a broad spectrum. Think about it, stats are not % based anymore which makes them less important in min maxing. Now we take the other races like Nord or Dunmer and compare, you can see that what an Imperial has is 1000 to 1400 health and 500 to 750 stamina over the other two, while a Nord has huge mitigation with ulti gen, and a Dunmer has weapon and spell damage. Red Diamond is indeed a cool skill but it cannot scale as good as weapon/spell damage and armor/spell mitigation. End game Imp will be a joke. I would propose they give some other stats or skills, or maybe just give them 500 more in both stam and health. The sword and board is more niche, but I dont mind it as most races have something that is tailored to lore and play style.

Khajiit: Leave as is, they are in a nice moon lit spot. Khajiit are balanced quite well and the stats are based primarily off of lore, regarding the moons Masser and Secunda, hence why they are adequate at all roles, warrior, mage, thief. Very cool indeed.

Nord: Very strong race indeed this patch. Mitigation will be king and with so much, they can now focus on boosting other stats very easily, plus they get a boost to ulti gen, Jesus, talk about power. Nord will be the go to tank, with Imps being an afterthought. The changes I would make to Nord are = giving them a bit less mitigation maybe 1000 to 1500 and giving back that spell resist to Breton, they can keep the ulti as its really cool addition. I think that will bring them in balance with others.

Orc: Really with orcs all i hear is people complaining that they have less base stats, but really they have a little of everything when it comes to a complete warrior. Healing and health proc, stamina proc, base stat gain, healing received, weapon damage and a nice speed boost to top it off. They really are an all around warrior. I would not make any changes because weapon damage can scale way more easily compared to base stats, if a change could be made I would say give them some spell resist because lore.

Redguard: These dudes are really the stamina kings able to hold their own for a very very long period of time. Really no change needed, as they are meant to show their endurance. Uniqueness comes from this fact, and their affinity for weapons is shown by how resource usage is lower for said weapon skills.

These are my thoughts on the matter. I have no racial bias, I think in a competitive multiplayer, and pvp intensive game, most mechanics should be at an even playing field. Id like to hear what everyone else thinks without bias in their hearts and minds. Free yourselves and show me what you got.

It feels like redguard is pigeon holed into classes without spammables such as dk and sorc, therefore going against what zos is trying to do (I mean, they took away dunmer's flame damage, which is arguablly pigeon holing them into magdk or single target mag dps (like nb) at the least). To fix this imo, replace the 8% weapon cost reduction to 3-4% all skills cost reduction.

Nord is overall fine as it is, no changes needed here.

According to many tests, if sustain is ignored (which is usually the case in high end raid guilds due to group support) dunmers are the strongest stam race, even better than pure stam races. Quite interesting, especially when khajiit seems to be overtaking altmer for nb and even templar under those same tests. Not sure what to think about this.

Interesting observations. But wouldn't Redgaurd play more off of expensive spam weapon skills like steel tornado and power slam, this giving them more weapon affinity like stated in lore, and at the same time be able to use class skill as a way of boosting themselves? Redgaurd already have awesome sustain regardless of this do to Adrenaline Rush, giving them more in everything just makes them OP.

A dunmers flame damage has been replaced with even numbers both stam and mag. Honestly they can go either way or both ways, that is the caveat, they are a hybrid. The caveat with Redgaurd is that they have good sustain and melee weapon affinity.

You really do have to factor in all the different ways of playing, what about playing by yourself, or small scale, everything that envelopes both PVE and PVP. Recovery of stats really do matter and long engagements are key on a ton of builds.

I know the tests you are referring to, and I know the tests are based on meta gear and skill of which will not matter as much with the patch, you have to factor in other build styles now, and gear setups. Besides that point the numbers are really so dang close you basically cant compare without margin of error literally 2% difference with one gear and skill setup.

I understand your reasoning, but think outside the limited raid groups and factor in everything, lore, gear, skills, PVE and PVP.

If you think about it, bosmer not only can easily surpass redguard's adrenline rush with just a stam regen multiplier of 1.47 (which is extremely easy to obtain, 2 ways are 5x medium, having a stam potion up & being a vampire, and simply having a stam potion up and killing something with a 2h ability) which also always ticks unless sprinting or blocking.

Idk altering the passive to 3-4% across everything vs 8% to spin2win, bleeds, rally etc will make them op

When both redguard and bosmer, with the same max stam in those same tests end up with bosmer as better than redguard in a pure parse, it can only mean that bosmer outsustained redguard

In previous elder scrolls games, redguard sustain was unmatched.

Now your saying you can surpass the stam recovery of a Redgaurd with certain play styles of a Bosmer, right? That means you would have to be willing to be a vamp, or run most medium, or use stam potions. All of this comes with a glaring deterrent, that your sacrificing other ways of playing and stats, and that not everyone wants to do or play this, and Redgaurd can easily do the same, or run different sets that make them better than the Bosmer.

I understand that a Bosmers regen is always active besides sprinting and blocking, but when do you need resource the most..... when your in combat. I am not sure if a Redgaurds Adrenaline Rush can be de-buffed like a Bosmers can. I have not tested, but I think that they do not get resource regen de-buffed with that racial proc skill.

I am not saying redgaurds need a buff or anything, but maybe you can come up with a more unique way of portraying a Redgaurds abilities?

Cundu_Ertur

NobleMatias wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

I am going to leave all I said about Bosmer and Khajiit at that, I really dont think discussion on either is warranted anymore. I will instead post all the changes I think should happen to the current race changes, only picking races I think should be changed slightly.

Altmer: leave as is, not really much to say about the all mighty Magic wielding god descendants.

Argonian: Real talk though Argonians needed a nerf to the potion passive. the developers said they were twice as good and this really is why, resource management and recovery. In all honesty it was not a big nerf at all, they in turn gained more magicka and only lost 1000 stat recovery via potions, and taking away the healing received made it where they were not the best at heal tanking because both healing received and healing done played off of each other. Argonian and Bosmer resistance I could care less about because they both kinda have game lore backing them with either way.

Bosmer: In all honesty the race bow passive is OP in my opinion. Some people might be angry they lost the sneak bonus but in reality they gained so much more. In favor of both parties that play and play against Bosmer I would give them 2m sneak back and take away 10% speed bonus from the roll dodge as it accumulates too much speed with other skills. Dems be my final words on the little people.

Breton: I rule in favor of lore and giving the Breton back a little bit more spell resistance, not as much as before but just a bit more and take away the recovery. Reasons being the Nord are now stronger in spell resistance I think lore states otherwise but ZOS is really hammering in that tanky Nord role.

Dunmer: In all honesty I like where the Dunmer are, they have always been the hybrid race lore wise and game wise. Damage stat wise they compare easily to the top magicka and stamina races, at the cost of recovery. But what people do not think about is that they have the ultimate potential to be the best race stat wise especially factoring in certain set bonuses, shackle breaker baby. Besides that point Dunmer can draw from both stat pools and can rely less on recovery, that is epic.

Imperial: Imperial is the race I think is lacking stats in a broad spectrum. Think about it, stats are not % based anymore which makes them less important in min maxing. Now we take the other races like Nord or Dunmer and compare, you can see that what an Imperial has is 1000 to 1400 health and 500 to 750 stamina over the other two, while a Nord has huge mitigation with ulti gen, and a Dunmer has weapon and spell damage. Red Diamond is indeed a cool skill but it cannot scale as good as weapon/spell damage and armor/spell mitigation. End game Imp will be a joke. I would propose they give some other stats or skills, or maybe just give them 500 more in both stam and health. The sword and board is more niche, but I dont mind it as most races have something that is tailored to lore and play style.

Khajiit: Leave as is, they are in a nice moon lit spot. Khajiit are balanced quite well and the stats are based primarily off of lore, regarding the moons Masser and Secunda, hence why they are adequate at all roles, warrior, mage, thief. Very cool indeed.

Nord: Very strong race indeed this patch. Mitigation will be king and with so much, they can now focus on boosting other stats very easily, plus they get a boost to ulti gen, Jesus, talk about power. Nord will be the go to tank, with Imps being an afterthought. The changes I would make to Nord are = giving them a bit less mitigation maybe 1000 to 1500 and giving back that spell resist to Breton, they can keep the ulti as its really cool addition. I think that will bring them in balance with others.

Orc: Really with orcs all i hear is people complaining that they have less base stats, but really they have a little of everything when it comes to a complete warrior. Healing and health proc, stamina proc, base stat gain, healing received, weapon damage and a nice speed boost to top it off. They really are an all around warrior. I would not make any changes because weapon damage can scale way more easily compared to base stats, if a change could be made I would say give them some spell resist because lore.

Redguard: These dudes are really the stamina kings able to hold their own for a very very long period of time. Really no change needed, as they are meant to show their endurance. Uniqueness comes from this fact, and their affinity for weapons is shown by how resource usage is lower for said weapon skills.

These are my thoughts on the matter. I have no racial bias, I think in a competitive multiplayer, and pvp intensive game, most mechanics should be at an even playing field. Id like to hear what everyone else thinks without bias in their hearts and minds. Free yourselves and show me what you got.

It feels like redguard is pigeon holed into classes without spammables such as dk and sorc, therefore going against what zos is trying to do (I mean, they took away dunmer's flame damage, which is arguablly pigeon holing them into magdk or single target mag dps (like nb) at the least). To fix this imo, replace the 8% weapon cost reduction to 3-4% all skills cost reduction.

Nord is overall fine as it is, no changes needed here.

According to many tests, if sustain is ignored (which is usually the case in high end raid guilds due to group support) dunmers are the strongest stam race, even better than pure stam races. Quite interesting, especially when khajiit seems to be overtaking altmer for nb and even templar under those same tests. Not sure what to think about this.

Interesting observations. But wouldn't Redgaurd play more off of expensive spam weapon skills like steel tornado and power slam, this giving them more weapon affinity like stated in lore, and at the same time be able to use class skill as a way of boosting themselves? Redgaurd already have awesome sustain regardless of this do to Adrenaline Rush, giving them more in everything just makes them OP.

A dunmers flame damage has been replaced with even numbers both stam and mag. Honestly they can go either way or both ways, that is the caveat, they are a hybrid. The caveat with Redgaurd is that they have good sustain and melee weapon affinity.

You really do have to factor in all the different ways of playing, what about playing by yourself, or small scale, everything that envelopes both PVE and PVP. Recovery of stats really do matter and long engagements are key on a ton of builds.

I know the tests you are referring to, and I know the tests are based on meta gear and skill of which will not matter as much with the patch, you have to factor in other build styles now, and gear setups. Besides that point the numbers are really so dang close you basically cant compare without margin of error literally 2% difference with one gear and skill setup.

I understand your reasoning, but think outside the limited raid groups and factor in everything, lore, gear, skills, PVE and PVP.

If you think about it, bosmer not only can easily surpass redguard's adrenline rush with just a stam regen multiplier of 1.47 (which is extremely easy to obtain, 2 ways are 5x medium, having a stam potion up & being a vampire, and simply having a stam potion up and killing something with a 2h ability) which also always ticks unless sprinting or blocking.

Idk altering the passive to 3-4% across everything vs 8% to spin2win, bleeds, rally etc will make them op

When both redguard and bosmer, with the same max stam in those same tests end up with bosmer as better than redguard in a pure parse, it can only mean that bosmer outsustained redguard

In previous elder scrolls games, redguard sustain was unmatched.

Now your saying you can surpass the stam recovery of a Redgaurd with certain play styles of a Bosmer, right? That means you would have to be willing to be a vamp, or run most medium, or use stam potions. All of this comes with a glaring deterrent, that your sacrificing other ways of playing and stats, and that not everyone wants to do or play this, and Redgaurd can easily do the same, or run different sets that make them better than the Bosmer.

I understand that a Bosmers regen is always active besides sprinting and blocking, but when do you need resource the most..... when your in combat. I am not sure if a Redgaurds Adrenaline Rush can be de-buffed like a Bosmers can. I have not tested, but I think that they do not get resource regen de-buffed with that racial proc skill.

I am not saying redgaurds need a buff or anything, but maybe you can come up with a more unique way of portraying a Redgaurds abilities?

I thought that theory-crafting and practical testing showed that in combat Redguard sustain was better than Bosmer. There was a thread in the PTS section, if I recall correctly, but I can't find it now. It's had graphs, and pictures and numbers and it was terribly exciting. If the complaint is that Reguards are getting shoe-horned into being weapons-using stam(whatevers), then, yeah. That's Redguards. Even their magic is centered around weapons. And they have curved swords.
Curved.
Swords.


edit to add: (this is more to the post you were replying to Mattias, not rebuking you)

edit again to add: No Bosmer would be a vampire (or werewolf), it violates the Pact. It's probably the Ohmes subtype of the Khajiit. I don't think I've seen a 2h wielding Bosmer before. Maybe once. Bow/bow, bow/dual daggers, even bow/staff seems to be more common.

JobooAGS

NobleMatias wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

I am going to leave all I said about Bosmer and Khajiit at that, I really dont think discussion on either is warranted anymore. I will instead post all the changes I think should happen to the current race changes, only picking races I think should be changed slightly.

Altmer: leave as is, not really much to say about the all mighty Magic wielding god descendants.

Argonian: Real talk though Argonians needed a nerf to the potion passive. the developers said they were twice as good and this really is why, resource management and recovery. In all honesty it was not a big nerf at all, they in turn gained more magicka and only lost 1000 stat recovery via potions, and taking away the healing received made it where they were not the best at heal tanking because both healing received and healing done played off of each other. Argonian and Bosmer resistance I could care less about because they both kinda have game lore backing them with either way.

Bosmer: In all honesty the race bow passive is OP in my opinion. Some people might be angry they lost the sneak bonus but in reality they gained so much more. In favor of both parties that play and play against Bosmer I would give them 2m sneak back and take away 10% speed bonus from the roll dodge as it accumulates too much speed with other skills. Dems be my final words on the little people.

Breton: I rule in favor of lore and giving the Breton back a little bit more spell resistance, not as much as before but just a bit more and take away the recovery. Reasons being the Nord are now stronger in spell resistance I think lore states otherwise but ZOS is really hammering in that tanky Nord role.

Dunmer: In all honesty I like where the Dunmer are, they have always been the hybrid race lore wise and game wise. Damage stat wise they compare easily to the top magicka and stamina races, at the cost of recovery. But what people do not think about is that they have the ultimate potential to be the best race stat wise especially factoring in certain set bonuses, shackle breaker baby. Besides that point Dunmer can draw from both stat pools and can rely less on recovery, that is epic.

Imperial: Imperial is the race I think is lacking stats in a broad spectrum. Think about it, stats are not % based anymore which makes them less important in min maxing. Now we take the other races like Nord or Dunmer and compare, you can see that what an Imperial has is 1000 to 1400 health and 500 to 750 stamina over the other two, while a Nord has huge mitigation with ulti gen, and a Dunmer has weapon and spell damage. Red Diamond is indeed a cool skill but it cannot scale as good as weapon/spell damage and armor/spell mitigation. End game Imp will be a joke. I would propose they give some other stats or skills, or maybe just give them 500 more in both stam and health. The sword and board is more niche, but I dont mind it as most races have something that is tailored to lore and play style.

Khajiit: Leave as is, they are in a nice moon lit spot. Khajiit are balanced quite well and the stats are based primarily off of lore, regarding the moons Masser and Secunda, hence why they are adequate at all roles, warrior, mage, thief. Very cool indeed.

Nord: Very strong race indeed this patch. Mitigation will be king and with so much, they can now focus on boosting other stats very easily, plus they get a boost to ulti gen, Jesus, talk about power. Nord will be the go to tank, with Imps being an afterthought. The changes I would make to Nord are = giving them a bit less mitigation maybe 1000 to 1500 and giving back that spell resist to Breton, they can keep the ulti as its really cool addition. I think that will bring them in balance with others.

Orc: Really with orcs all i hear is people complaining that they have less base stats, but really they have a little of everything when it comes to a complete warrior. Healing and health proc, stamina proc, base stat gain, healing received, weapon damage and a nice speed boost to top it off. They really are an all around warrior. I would not make any changes because weapon damage can scale way more easily compared to base stats, if a change could be made I would say give them some spell resist because lore.

Redguard: These dudes are really the stamina kings able to hold their own for a very very long period of time. Really no change needed, as they are meant to show their endurance. Uniqueness comes from this fact, and their affinity for weapons is shown by how resource usage is lower for said weapon skills.

These are my thoughts on the matter. I have no racial bias, I think in a competitive multiplayer, and pvp intensive game, most mechanics should be at an even playing field. Id like to hear what everyone else thinks without bias in their hearts and minds. Free yourselves and show me what you got.

It feels like redguard is pigeon holed into classes without spammables such as dk and sorc, therefore going against what zos is trying to do (I mean, they took away dunmer's flame damage, which is arguablly pigeon holing them into magdk or single target mag dps (like nb) at the least). To fix this imo, replace the 8% weapon cost reduction to 3-4% all skills cost reduction.

Nord is overall fine as it is, no changes needed here.

According to many tests, if sustain is ignored (which is usually the case in high end raid guilds due to group support) dunmers are the strongest stam race, even better than pure stam races. Quite interesting, especially when khajiit seems to be overtaking altmer for nb and even templar under those same tests. Not sure what to think about this.

Interesting observations. But wouldn't Redgaurd play more off of expensive spam weapon skills like steel tornado and power slam, this giving them more weapon affinity like stated in lore, and at the same time be able to use class skill as a way of boosting themselves? Redgaurd already have awesome sustain regardless of this do to Adrenaline Rush, giving them more in everything just makes them OP.

A dunmers flame damage has been replaced with even numbers both stam and mag. Honestly they can go either way or both ways, that is the caveat, they are a hybrid. The caveat with Redgaurd is that they have good sustain and melee weapon affinity.

You really do have to factor in all the different ways of playing, what about playing by yourself, or small scale, everything that envelopes both PVE and PVP. Recovery of stats really do matter and long engagements are key on a ton of builds.

I know the tests you are referring to, and I know the tests are based on meta gear and skill of which will not matter as much with the patch, you have to factor in other build styles now, and gear setups. Besides that point the numbers are really so dang close you basically cant compare without margin of error literally 2% difference with one gear and skill setup.

I understand your reasoning, but think outside the limited raid groups and factor in everything, lore, gear, skills, PVE and PVP.

If you think about it, bosmer not only can easily surpass redguard's adrenline rush with just a stam regen multiplier of 1.47 (which is extremely easy to obtain, 2 ways are 5x medium, having a stam potion up & being a vampire, and simply having a stam potion up and killing something with a 2h ability) which also always ticks unless sprinting or blocking.

Idk altering the passive to 3-4% across everything vs 8% to spin2win, bleeds, rally etc will make them op

When both redguard and bosmer, with the same max stam in those same tests end up with bosmer as better than redguard in a pure parse, it can only mean that bosmer outsustained redguard

In previous elder scrolls games, redguard sustain was unmatched.

Now your saying you can surpass the stam recovery of a Redgaurd with certain play styles of a Bosmer, right? That means you would have to be willing to be a vamp, or run most medium, or use stam potions. All of this comes with a glaring deterrent, that your sacrificing other ways of playing and stats, and that not everyone wants to do or play this, and Redgaurd can easily do the same, or run different sets that make them better than the Bosmer.

I understand that a Bosmers regen is always active besides sprinting and blocking, but when do you need resource the most..... when your in combat. I am not sure if a Redgaurds Adrenaline Rush can be de-buffed like a Bosmers can. I have not tested, but I think that they do not get resource regen de-buffed with that racial proc skill.

I am not saying redgaurds need a buff or anything, but maybe you can come up with a more unique way of portraying a Redgaurds abilities?

These figures dont include cp (up to 15%), continous assault (20%), and class passives (12% for warden, 25% for nb (15 from shadow, 10% from relentless), 20% for sorc and if you slot repentence, 10% for templar). I am not saying a bosmer has to do this, I am just showing how easy it is to do it.

Using potions with restore stam is standard across most stam builds (few exceptions are those using lingering vitality potions, and Im sure there are others).

max_only

NobleMatias wrote: »

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

You didn't address rampant stupidity like Bosmers losing their stealth bonus. Yet again PVE gets screwed because of PVP.

Bosmer now have a mechanic that allows them to be the fastest resource harvesters in the game. Please for the love of god stop complaining about the Bosmer's stealth being taken away. they are given other special skills to make up, and for you to complain about 3m of detect just makes me laugh so damn much. The Bosmer race literally got a buff when comparing all the race changes [edit].

[edited for baiting]

NobleMatias wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I will be an constructive as possible because it seems I am hurting some persons feelings.

In the case of a Bosmer and a Khajiit. What has replaced the stealth damage a and sneak potential? Bosmer now are able to roll dodge and gain a 20% boost to speed, I can imagine them playing with their victims regarding certain sets, and are able to spot enemies at 3m the cost of a 3m sneak. Khajiit on the other hand have always been the sneakiest In every Elder Scrolls entry, hence why they still have their sneaky style. Neither have the damage bonus as before, and both are based on lore. Bosmer being that they turn into ravenous hunting beasts if you mess with their forest, and khajit for being master thief's with a whole back story and Daedric Items to back it up.

I would trade 3m of stealth for a 20% speed boost any day. I know majority who love the changes are not on the forums voicing frustrations when simply should not be as big a deal, so peeps should be calm. Now it would be warranted if people of which I will not mention, can back the statements with proof, data, and statistics, this will make me and many others take what is said more seriously. I have shown these. The Bosmer race will still be viable in a sneaky role and honestly be able to roll out of danger and pop into sneak mode with a 20% speed boost. This enables a quick getaway.

I am trying to show everyone that the team at ZOS have really number crunched on the races while providing unique buffs, and they are indeed balanced. Every race is now viable. But of course tweaking would not hurt for the sake of diversity. I could name a ton of lore related reasons to tweak the races.

I am scratching my head on why you think this argument of yours will win any converts. I don’t think you are quite grasping why people are upset with the Bosmer change. The addition of the roll, or the bonus damage from stealth, or what ever, is immaterial. It appears to me no one who is arguing for Bosmers to retain their stealth actually cares what the second half of the passive is.

The point is that bosmers are sneaky and the players who play bosmers like to play a sneaky characters. That is what they care about. Not combat. Nor about characters that roll around a lot.

The stealth functionality is being nerfed for bosmers, and ONLY for bosmers. Everyone other race is having their stealth ability stay the same or it’s being boosted.

The roll mechanic is ok. I think rolling in eso is clumsily implemented so when I actually roll it’s by accident. So right now, on live, I have a two part racial I am getting a lot of use of, and it’s changing to a two part racial I will get little use of. So yes I am going to complain.

But even then, if I could only keep part of the old racial I would keep the stealth. In fact if it was changed to 6m of stealth and NOTHING ELSE I would not complain.

To sum up; The stealth mechanic is important to other players. Right now it is being nerfed for them (and me) and they are upset about it (as am I). We don’t care about the roll/speed boost. Stealth is what’s fun.

I have been winning people over almost since this race post was posted. You and others can disagree and complain all you want until your blue in the face but unless you can provide an alternative for the whole of the ESO community, not just the people who play Bosmer and like a little bit of stealth, that can change a Bosmer to be more unique compared to other races, then all I hear is people complaining because that is the race they play.

Provide proof that 3m in sneak is a huge deal, and that 20% speed boost into a Nightblades sneak skill is not better for sneaking. How is a 6m Bosmer stealth different from a Khajiit's 5m? Can you make a mechanic that makes a Bosmer have a unique stealth buff? Will that mechanic match the others in lore and balance? You also blatantly disregard people who play with a game pad or controller as for such roll dodging is quite easy and useful, and not a clumsy on accident mistake. It was built into the game for a reason, and a lot of the ESO community play on console as well.

As I conclude all I hear really is gripes, no constructive thoughts. They are saying give me what I want now, not maybe you can make it better this way. All races matter in this game, as do all players, and pandering to the vocal minority is def not the way to go about it. Attack, or I mean talk to me with reason, and thought provoking analogies.

You want to see numbers? Fine.

3m of additional stealth > 0m of additional stealth. It’s a full 3m better actually (I thought that was obvious).

Show me your numbers that say 0m of extra stealth is better then the 3m of extra stealth. Remember, roll boost has nothing to do with stealth.

Stop playing into your own mind games and read. I said compare it to roll dodging speed boost and going into a sneak mode. No saltyness please.[/quote]

NobleMatias wrote: »

For all the peeps wanting sneak back for the Bosmer. I hope you guys get it back, I genuinely hope you are able to get a little sneak bonus because that would mean you would lose that speed boost, and that makes me happy ; }. If you lose that speed boost then me and many others will have an easier time killing you in PVP. So zos please give back the sneak bonus to Bosmer and its players so both them and the many wanting to kill them in PVP can be happy. While your at it give the khajiit the speed boost so we can use it against them.

Khajiits on PTS are figuratively riding guards people lol

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455172/a-visual-of-khajiits-new-stealth-capability-stacking-is-quite-extreme/

No one uses stealth detect. You want numbers, give me the number of instances in PVE that you use stealth detect. Stealth detect is 100% useless and they know it, they even wrote it in their opening post. “”(many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!)””

You want us to be satisfied with the rolling bonus and ignore a completely useless change. That is what you are asking for. We want them to keep the old stealth radius AND the new rolling bonus, how hard is it to understand?

Them: we changed your burger, instead of pickles and onions, here’s some tomatoes and durian on your burger.
Us: can we have the pickles we always had with those tomatoes? A lot of us actually used the pickles.
You: people you get tomatoes! Be content with your durian

TheTraveler

NobleMatias wrote: »

TheTraveler wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

Yea sure, you wanna play that game.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit

Suthay-raht are the kitties we have seen In almost every Elder Scrolls game, and I assume the ones in ESO, with no other racial difference other than skin change in the character creator, until now. This means I win right?

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ring_of_Khajiiti

A powerful ring just for them sneaky pests.

Besides that point I It would be pretty cool to bring in all the racial differences and play styles of all the different kitties. I mean their might someone out there wanting to play a common house cat right?

Let's talk about actual TES game-play mechanic tradition in addition to "lore" . The lore you are quoting was only introduced in later TES games.

I clearly showed you in an earlier post, how Bosmer were the only "thief" race in the first Elder Scrolls game. In the second game, Argonians were presented as being sneaky, and only in the second game does Kahjiit come in as thieves, but not due to stealth - due to their climbing ability. https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Races_(Daggerfall)

Khajiit in Arena: https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit_(Arena) As you can see, no sneaking or thievery, but the Bosmer most definitely are thieves:
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Bosmer_(Arena)

LOL those are not proper links to show what you are talking about. I am not sure If you have played those games but races did not get a boost to skills, this was all chosen by the player in the character creator at the start of the game. The only boost the races got were to base stats. The site you are on is not the best site to look for Elder Scrolls lore and mechanics, but this site is.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Daggerfall#Character_Information

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Races

get your facts straight before posting false information.

I DID play those games and in fact still own them. If you played them yourself you probably forgot how character creation worked, but for each race and even gender, you got + or - certain points added or subtracted from the base stat pool, and you got a certain amount of points to spend to increase whichever stat you wished to. I have been very familiar with the website you linked to, for years and years and years now, but that site does not show the aforementioned in any detail.

Villaine

52 pages in.

Should be 52 pages asking a single question...

Why only 1 free token?

Shameful!

Deathlord92

Bretons should have more spell resistance thn nords pls zos other thn tht I love changes to my Breton 🙂

Iron_Blurr

So dark elves get the apprentice and warrior mundus built in.
Altmer get the apprentice.
Bosmer get the serpent.
Orcs get the warrior.
Khajit get the thief.
Orcs get the lady x2
Imperials get.. NOTHING!!!
Seriously 5% block/bash reduction is just 1 piece of gold sturdy gear. Meanwhile other races are getting a mundus stone and then some.

Imperials need a buff

Arseny

https://youtube.com/watch?v=oPC8ZqlznTM&t=2s
Russian youtuber "Danik PROK" made a video to compare different races as stamina NB dd(all equipment, skills, champion points are same) on PTS.
So, results:
Orc 53203 (good sustain, the best average and total dmg)
Dunmer 52638 (average sustain)
Khajiit 51652 (approximately the same as on Live)
Nord 51629 (Bad sustain)
Bosmer 51388 (sustain is almost the same as Redgaurd)
Altmer 50378 (bad sustain)
Argonian 50286 (the worst sustain and average dmg)
Redguard 50259 (the best sustain)
In conclusion, Orc has the best DPS, Redguard and Bosmer have the best sustain(so they are very comfortable to play), Dunmer and Khajiit are universal and you can easy change them into magic.
And there is no Breton race, because it has not any stamina passive skills.

Al'Odin

On the face of it I think the changes look fair, but no doubt I will have to look at each of my char in turn and decide if a race change is needed.


As others have mentioned to only have 1 free gratis change is quite disgraceful and comes over as a money grab. I understand you just cant give out race changes for us to have in the bank, but you could certainly have 1 for each char per account but time limited, seems that would be fairer

BoxFoxx

Dark Elf (Dunmer) is going to become the new top choice for race... I think the ability to mix and match combinations of skillsets between Stam and Mag are under-rated. You can make some crazy stuff happen when both options for max effect are at your disposal.

BlueRaven

Did they say they were going to have a new revision pass on the racials this week? Any idea if that will be today?

John_Falstaff

@BlueRaven , nothing is official, but I think they do balancing changes later in PTS cycle - on second or third week after the cycle starts. So probably shouldn't hold breath for racial changes today, though who knows.

I'm still rooting for a bump to khajiit sustain (and removal of the ridiculous 100 health regen). Khajiit parses look good, but even with perfect support they're unsustainable and bound to plummet on longer distances. And to add insult to injury, builds with absorb stamina on DW took a hefty hit, so overall sustain have dropped.

BlueRaven

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@BlueRaven , nothing is official, but I think they do balancing changes later in PTS cycle - on second or third week after the cycle starts. So probably shouldn't hold breath for racial changes today, though who knows.

I'm still rooting for a bump to khajiit sustain (and removal of the ridiculous 100 health regen). Khajiit parses look good, but even with perfect support they're unsustainable and bound to plummet on longer distances. And to add insult to injury, builds with absorb stamina on DW took a hefty hit, so overall sustain have dropped.

Thanks! As for the numbers I think everything will work out in the end. If there is combat differences between the races I am sure they will be pretty minimal.
I am just worried about bosmers losing their stealth and I am hoping it will be reimplemented in some way.

StarOfElyon

Gotta admit, I think Altmer using Meditate is going to be OP. They won't be able to be killed. I say this with an Altmer main.

Merlin13KAGL

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Gotta admit, I think Altmer using Meditate is going to be OP. They won't be able to be killed. I say this with an Altmer main.

You think 5% is going to make them unkillable?