Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21

Moonsorrow

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

So everyone playing this game is a pve dps?

I wonder how many times had to remind about that already...

Considering things need to die, yeah every one is a dps in pve. Tank and healer roles matter in group content and you can be any race with them.

*sigh* i am talking about changes like these not increasing variety/efficiency on PVP builds as an example since % modifiers gone. And thats what you come up with?

"this is fine.." crowd at it again with their logic.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

So everyone playing this game is a pve dps?

I wonder how many times had to remind about that already...

Considering things need to die, yeah every one is a dps in pve. Tank and healer roles matter in group content and you can be any race with them.

*sigh* i am talking about changes like these not increasing variety/efficiency on PVP builds as an example since % modifiers gone. And thats what you come up with?

"this is fine.." crowd at it again with their logic.

i am fine with dps in pvp going down. players die too fast.

BlueRaven

NobleMatias wrote: »

I already gotten what you meant because you stated that the first time, the roll and speed does not matter to you and some others, I got it, do you got it?

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bosmer

THE WILD HUNT, is where ZOS is basing the new traits and the fact bosmers have an affinity for bow and arrow. The new roll dodge plays in very well with the bow passive that also grants speed boost and it turns out to be a 50% speed boost, which is why most youtubers that test the game say its kind of OP. Now I can attest most people play Bosmer with a bow in mind and I am sure ZOS knows this fact.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Bow

Now I will compare both the old and new. 3m of sneak means it will be a tad easier to sneak up and get closer to a target without them realizing, and honestly its not a huge boost in terms of math. Now we take a race passive that goes right along with the bow passive. Using a roll dodge which many players do to get out of harms way and give safe distance between a hunter and its prey. This gives 50% speed boost to escape, use a skill, sneak, hide, prepare defense or attack etc.

ZOS and most players want a race to feel unique when playing. Would you want it to where Bosmer have the sneak and khajiit didn't? Or each race has an equal amount, not very unique this way but you will have your little bit of close up sneak. I am sure players who play khajiit would have a blast roll dodging and playing around with the mousy Bosmer like a ball of yarn.

Now you could come up with something completely different, like a new mechanic. Here is one that comes from the top of my head. You can make a Bosmer more sneaky after a dodge roll, or make them enter stealth faster. WOW that was so hard to come up with, I am surprised I did, my head hurts.

Oh! They are basing it off the wild hunt? That’s nice. I am just basing mine off basically every ES game they ever produced. But they chose wild hunt lore and not the rite of theft lore which seems arbitrary. Since the rite of theft is something nearly all bosmers participate in for their entire lives.
And roll/speed is good for hunting? It sounds to me they came up with the mechanic first and said “That’s good for... Hunting! Sure let’s go with that!”
If it was dunmer they could have named it after something to do with the Morag tong. Or with kahjits it could be “ferocious leap”. With Orcs they could have named it “rough and tumble” but it’s Bosmer’s so “wild hunt” because why not?

•••

Let’s see all the races need to be unique, right? And if I remember correctly (I am currently on a ship in the Caribbean) we have bow, two-handed, dual wield, dps staff, healing staff, and one-hand with shield. Six weapons and ten races. That leaves 4 races that should be bad at all weapons. We can’t have more then one race per weapon right? That would go against uniqueness! Choosing which races that should be bad at all things is tough, hmmmm....

Oh wait, am I still being unique enough? Maybe we should limit it to tank, melee dps, ranges dps, and heals! That leaves six races that should be bad at everything because “uniqueness”.

Or we can break it down to stamina and magika abilities. That leaves eight races that can’t be good using either trait. Hmmm.... (Am I doing this right?)

•••

You are sacrificing flexibility on the altar of uniqueness without giving a thought to gameplay.

Multiple races should be good at multiple things. Multiple races should be good tanks, multiple races should be good at healing, and yes multiple races should be good at sneaking. I can even make a good case that Dunmer should have a sneak bonus as well, but that’s a distraction.

Having multiple races good at multiple things is not contrary to uniqueness. The uniqueness comes in on HOW the races approach their roles not, not have their roles dictate their race. Kahjits and bosmers can both have stealth, it’s what they do with stealth that should give their race flavor.

I want to sneak, therefore kahjit.
I want to be a mage, therefore altmer.
Not good gameplay.

Maybe kahjit stealth make great ambushers. Maybe Bosmer stealth makes them shoot farther, an ”aimed shot” if you will. (That fits hunting more then a roll.)

•••

Lastly, “a tad easier”?? Right now (I may be wrong) the detection range of stealth is 5m. That makes a 3m of improved stealth 60% better then with out it. That’s more then a tad better. There is forum posts showing the before and after of the stealth changes. You should read it before using terms like “tad”.

Cundu_Ertur

NobleMatias wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

You didn't address rampant stupidity like Bosmers losing their stealth bonus. Yet again PVE gets screwed because of PVP.

Bosmer now have a mechanic that allows them to be the fastest resource harvesters in the game. Please for the love of god stop complaining about the Bosmer's stealth being taken away. they are given other special skills to make up, and for you to complain about 3m of detect just makes me laugh so damn much. The Bosmer race literally got a buff when comparing all the race changes, quit crying.

Please for the love of God stop trying to dismiss other people's opinions because they have the temerity to not agree with your perfect all-knowing wisdom. (note, the description of your wisdom is sarcastic icymi)

The fact is, that despite saying "so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives," the devs in actually completely removed stealth bonus from the Bosmer entirely. The statement of the intent and the result do not match. We are completely within our rights to point this out. We are also within our rights to point out the substantial lore that says that Wood Elves are adept at stealth. We are within our rights to point out how this lore, and our experience with other games, informed our choices regarding this race and how we choose to play it. You do NOT get to dictate to us how we choose to play, how we choose to feel, or how we choose to express our deep dissatisfaction with the change as it currently stands.

Yes, we got some significant benefit from this change, as do the Khajiit. That's not the issue. The issue is that we are losing something that is core to how many people see the Bosmer as a race. It is like telling Redguards that they are no longer masters of weapons but magic instead.

Khajiit on the other hand have always been the sneakiest In every Elder Scrolls entry, hence why they still have their sneaky style.

Gotta go for a while, but had to ask: wanna bet? C'mon, you know you wanna.

Yea sure, you wanna play that game.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit

Suthay-raht are the kitties we have seen In almost every Elder Scrolls game, and I assume the ones in ESO, with no other racial difference other than skin change in the character creator, until now. This means I win right?

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ring_of_Khajiiti

A powerful ring just for them sneaky pests.

Besides that point I It would be pretty cool to bring in all the racial differences and play styles of all the different kitties. I mean their might someone out there wanting to play a common house cat right?

Sorry, but no. What race had the biggest boost in hiding in Morrowind and Oblivion? Bosmer. What race has as their most famous national epic the Meh Ayleidion (or The Thousand Uses of Hiding)? Bosmer. What race has the rite of theft, where villages and tribes would steal each other's most precious artifacts, without drawing either blood or attention? Bosmer.
Did you even play Morrowind or Oblivion? Khajiit didn't have hiding as their primary skill, it was a secondary skill with a +5; Bosmer got a +10. The only reason why Bosmer didn't have hiding as a primary skill in Skyrim was that each race got only one primary (which was bow for the Bosmer); and the Khajiits' previous primary, Acrobatics, no longer existed (well, in Oblivion they also had hand-to-hand as a primary, and it, too, was removed from Skyrim). Also, the Khajiit were digitigrade in Morrowind, so quite different in the character creator, which you would know if you'd played it. It was hard to miss, since Khajiit couldn't wear most shoes, iirc.

And for someone who is gaining lots of converts, you have an amazing low number of agrees on your posts. Almost as if no-one agreed with you.

Cundu_Ertur

NobleMatias wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

You didn't address rampant stupidity like Bosmers losing their stealth bonus. Yet again PVE gets screwed because of PVP.

Bosmer now have a mechanic that allows them to be the fastest resource harvesters in the game. Please for the love of god stop complaining about the Bosmer's stealth being taken away. they are given other special skills to make up, and for you to complain about 3m of detect just makes me laugh so damn much. The Bosmer race literally got a buff when comparing all the race changes, quit crying.

Please for the love of God stop trying to dismiss other people's opinions because they have the temerity to not agree with your perfect all-knowing wisdom. (note, the description of your wisdom is sarcastic icymi)

The fact is, that despite saying "so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives," the devs in actually completely removed stealth bonus from the Bosmer entirely. The statement of the intent and the result do not match. We are completely within our rights to point this out. We are also within our rights to point out the substantial lore that says that Wood Elves are adept at stealth. We are within our rights to point out how this lore, and our experience with other games, informed our choices regarding this race and how we choose to play it. You do NOT get to dictate to us how we choose to play, how we choose to feel, or how we choose to express our deep dissatisfaction with the change as it currently stands.

Yes, we got some significant benefit from this change, as do the Khajiit. That's not the issue. The issue is that we are losing something that is core to how many people see the Bosmer as a race. It is like telling Redguards that they are no longer masters of weapons but magic instead.

I will be an constructive as possible because it seems I am hurting some persons feelings.

In the case of a Bosmer and a Khajiit. What has replaced the stealth damage a and sneak potential? Bosmer now are able to roll dodge and gain a 20% boost to speed, I can imagine them playing with their victims regarding certain sets, and are able to spot enemies at 3m the cost of a 3m sneak. Khajiit on the other hand have always been the sneakiest In every Elder Scrolls entry, hence why they still have their sneaky style. Neither have the damage bonus as before, and both are based on lore. Bosmer being that they turn into ravenous hunting beasts if you mess with their forest, and khajit for being master thief's with a whole back story and Daedric Items to back it up.

I would trade 3m of stealth for a 20% speed boost any day. I know majority who love the changes are not on the forums voicing frustrations when simply should not be as big a deal, so peeps should be calm. Now it would be warranted if people of which I will not mention, can back the statements with proof, data, and statistics, this will make me and many others take what is said more seriously. I have shown these. The Bosmer race will still be viable in a sneaky role and honestly be able to roll out of danger and pop into sneak mode with a 20% speed boost. This enables a quick getaway.

I am trying to show everyone that the team at ZOS have really number crunched on the races while providing unique buffs, and they are indeed balanced. Every race is now viable. But of course tweaking would not hurt for the sake of diversity. I could name a ton of lore related reasons to tweak the races.

I only focused on the part where you claimed (falsely, as it turns out) Khajiit had always been the more stealthy race in prior iterations of Elder Scrolls games. I had other places to be and could not answer fully. Now I have time. As for what replaced the original stealth passive I already wrote about it at length in another post, I will quote it here:

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Stealthy: This was actually shared, both Khajiit and Bosmer had the same exact passive, though Khajiit had it as their second while Bosmer had it as their third. Both races had a bonus to being able to hide and had a bonus to damage out of stealth. In the new versions, both races lose the bonus to damage out of stealth and get something new in return: Bosmer get a roll-dodge speed buff, Khajiit get a new buff to all of their stats. Khajiit keep the 3m hiding bonus, and add 2m to it, and move the buff to their third passive. Bosmer lose the hiding bonus completely, and add a 3m detection bonus.

As I point out, the lost damage bonus was already compensated for with new mechanics, either the roll-dodge or across-the-board stat boost. So that's not the issue. The issue here is that Khajiit keep the 3m hiding bonus, and add more to it. It is completely reasonable to expect that the Bosmer would also get to keep the 3m hiding bonus, and add more to it, too. If this had been done at the start, then the devs' comment that they wanted to preserve part of the bonus for both races, but in distinct ways, would make sense. This thread would also be much shorter. As it stands right now, their statement is completely wrong, because Bosmers' stealth bonus is completely gone, not any part of it has been preserved in any way.

Bladewizard

I am a solo pve player. By solo I mean solo. I do not even belong to a guild. The way I play has no negative impact on anyone else on this game, and if you take stealth away from the bosmer I will have to change a good half of my characters to khajit. I have silently endured all of the balance changes over the years without complaint, this one thing though ruins my game. After all the time and money I have spent on this game I do not want to have to find a new game without at least voicing my opinion on this. I have played every single elder scrolls game and I have always mained a sneaky little wood elf. Please do what you want with the rest just leave my little wood elves sneaky.

TheTraveler

NobleMatias wrote: »

Yea sure, you wanna play that game.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit

Suthay-raht are the kitties we have seen In almost every Elder Scrolls game, and I assume the ones in ESO, with no other racial difference other than skin change in the character creator, until now. This means I win right?

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ring_of_Khajiiti

A powerful ring just for them sneaky pests.

Besides that point I It would be pretty cool to bring in all the racial differences and play styles of all the different kitties. I mean their might someone out there wanting to play a common house cat right?

Let's talk about actual TES game-play mechanic tradition in addition to "lore" . The lore you are quoting was only introduced in later TES games.

I clearly showed you in an earlier post, how Bosmer were the only "thief" race in the first Elder Scrolls game. In the second game, Argonians were presented as being sneaky, and only in the second game does Kahjiit come in as thieves, but not due to stealth - due to their climbing ability. https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Races_(Daggerfall)

Khajiit in Arena: https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Khajiit_(Arena) As you can see, no sneaking or thievery, but the Bosmer most definitely are thieves:
https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Bosmer_(Arena)

TheTraveler

NobleMatias wrote: »

ZOS and most players want a race to feel unique when playing. Would you want it to where Bosmer have the sneak and khajiit didn't ?

Firstly, don't you get that thievery is a part of this game, why must it all be about PVP, and secondly, why can't both have sneak - perhaps in a slightly different form yes, but saying only one of them can have stealth abilities, to be "unique" is like saying only one race can have magic abilities or only one can have a health buff to be "unique".

There are many other things you can do, for example, something that they already had, like a boost to crit damage can be what makes Khajiit unique, and some kind of bow bonus or roll-dodge bonus can be what makes Bosmer "unique", if you really want to go that way.

There are many things that can be done without having to remove the Bosmer stealth completely. Bosmer have been THE thief race from the start of TES.

PS, read your own link : https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bosmer , which says: Their (Bosmer's) agility makes them well-suited as scouts and thieves. Last time I looked, you need stealth for scouting and thieving.

Moonsorrow

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

So everyone playing this game is a pve dps?

I wonder how many times had to remind about that already...

Considering things need to die, yeah every one is a dps in pve. Tank and healer roles matter in group content and you can be any race with them.

*sigh* i am talking about changes like these not increasing variety/efficiency on PVP builds as an example since % modifiers gone. And thats what you come up with?

"this is fine.." crowd at it again with their logic.

i am fine with dps in pvp going down. players die too fast.

As said, "this is fine.." -people come with the weirdest things, no knowledge of the real pvp realities, sadly.

It is little things like this, that bit by bit makes the game have less options, racial passives being changed to have less viable options for interesting builds that makes the current situation happen.

Also, i know already these changes will go through, as do all the nerfs always go, with maybe little adjustments. But what i am sad about truly is, the "this is fine.." -people are in every thread saying all that they should just "adapt" to these, like we do not even have right to say our opinions about these changes.

Apparently everyone should agree with every change in the game, even it is bad for our playstyles. This is game industry these days it seems.

When these changes were announced, i said many of them will be nerfs to variety and options in builds that used the % modifiers to the extremes. Math guys were here saying everyone gets buffed. Then Gilliam told how the new flat passives scale and nerfs were confirmed. Math guys went quiet for a bit. Now their new lines are: "nerfs are fine.." and "just adapt..". Laughing at your excuses.

We can adapt, i can adapt. But i damn well have right to my opinion on bad changes. Nothing you can do about it and there will be time when i get to again say the "i told you so." like after nerfs were confirmed, when the dumbed down game goes even more on that direction and the decline starts after the influx of people from the movie Idiocracy that are at first empowered by these changes that makes all mediocre with less choices.

The changes will not end to these you know. Next will happen on things you like on your playstyle. I shall be there then to humbly say the "i told you so.." then. Or maybe the "this is fine.." while watching your gaming enjoyment world burn.

And yes, there are a few decent changes in these, but they do not make up for all the negatives. At those situations it is better to have no change at all, until model is worked upon enough to keep the fun things that have already, and increase the options on new fun things. I do not understand how hard these opinions must be for some to understand what we are saying here? If something is not broken, there is no need to fix it, and if do for just to change, then do it properly.

Destroying many fun things as collateral damage while making all racials be based on pve dps is just weird and not needed at all, except if wants to sell race change tokens.

Alucardmike

I really hope, that my Bosmer doesn't get these changes.

I am a roleplayer with a thief Bosmer, which is now nearly unseen. With the changes, I amfaster, if I roll. Wow. Doesn't help a thief.
I can see other better, when they sneak?
Only for PVP interesting. Wow.

So all my time in this game seemed to be wasted...

hakan

Now looking at lore, dunmers never had flame damage just destruction bonus and lots of races had that. Weird enough they had spark ability at the start of the game in Skyrim.

And they also have bonuses with sneak and speed but they got no bonuses for those either. attack speed would be interesting.

TheTraveler

The point is that people have built their characters around racial characteristics in THIS game. If they wanted to "balance" the races, why didn't they do so at the start before people started investing a lot into their toons. I am sick and tired of having to buy new gear and making race changes because the devs can't get it right, and keep on perpetually buffing and nerfing - don't you see that as soon as you buff and nerf it causes and outcry from the nerfed group, who ends up getting a buff, which causes another outcry, which then ends up in more buffs and nerfs... and it all costs the players wasted time and gold either in the game or in real life.

Lord_Eomer

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

...

Khajiit have the only passive bossting enchant damage and everything else that is not a proc set (pets too for example): Critical Chance. They will produce incredible dps and even have an edge when you consider that other races can not boost their enchants, especially since enchants are such a big chunk of damage nowadays...

They got additional resources and are very much a top contender for damage dealers.

Enchant damage, you say? ^^

He said because Enhancements like Fire, Lighting, Poison damage etc. can crit.

Adernath

I haven't read through all the 50 pages, just my few cents to:

zyk wrote: »

Spell Recharge: Restore 575 Magicka or Stamina, based on whichever is higher, after activating a Class Ability. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds.

The problem I have with this is that it does not help my sorc in any way if I run her as healer (and I enjoy much playing that role). The flat 7% ability reduction for bretons in comparison is an insane buff!

EDIT: Unless with 'abilities' in that breton description it is meant 'class abilities'. Than I am fine with it.

Uryel

NobleMatias wrote: »

3m of sneak means it will be a tad easier to sneak up and get closer to a target without them realizing, and honestly its not a huge boost in terms of math.

Obviously, you've never played a stealthy character in ESO.

Not only is it a HUGE bonus, but the point isn't only to get up close and personnal with a supposed target. The point is, as the word "stealth" implies, to avoid being seen. Like, for instance, sneaking into a restricted area, avoiding all combat in a delve, whatever. If all people playing bosmers wnated to do was stealthily koll a target, stealth radius would be a non factor, we have bows.

That 3 m bonus matters alot in every other situations.

Uryel

NobleMatias wrote: »

Both roll dodge and sneak are game mechanics meant to be utilized by a player. No gimmicks here.

Well... "Gimmick" litteraly means gadget, something that has no real value, that may be useful in some peculiar situations, but doesn't have much use outside of them.

Stealth can be used in almost every aspect of the game. Marginally, but, it can.

Dodge roll isn't all that great if you're already using a bow, but hey, why not.

Now please explain to me how stealth detection is not a gimmick, considering the definition I gave just above. Something that has no use whatsoever in PvE and only a very limited use in PvP ?

Hence, devs should drop that stealth detection gimmick and keep stealth.

CurvedSwords123

Lorewise, Redguards are the best warriors and the most well employed mercenaries. NOT including fighters guild abilities with the weapon abilities is silly, as well as very pigeon holing build wise. We don't have any kind of defensive bonus (which we prob should). The fighters guild inclusion change makes sense. Either that or go all in with the WEP skill thing and include some kind of WEP dmg (don't suggest this option), as I'm guessing we will be able to light attack more than others. As it stands now everyone is going to have more options than Redguards & Imperials (the block thing makes sense but seems boring).

My other beef is with Dark elves and Wood Elves. Yes Dark Elves have all the damage bonuses in the world, lorewise, a DE having more dmg potential than a Redguard or Orc is dumb. Also they won't be able to sustain that most likely. Yes they are equalized between magic and stam, but it's like u are setting them up for something that doesn't exist; that being hyprid DPS. Battlemages exist in the lore, but NOT in your game ZoS. Give them another theory crafting pass I say, they are fiery, why take fire away from them???

Lastly the Wood elf speed thing is going to be broken. This has been covered by everyone and their mother so I won't bother.

CurvedSwords123

I think the racial changes are a good thing. Next on the chopping block should be a CP rework.

TheRealPotoroo

NobleMatias wrote: »

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

NobleMatias wrote: »

The video I posted above has literally all the races within 2% of each other. If your going to choose a race because you want a laughable 2% more dps, then your pretty shallow in my opinion.

You didn't address rampant stupidity like Bosmers losing their stealth bonus. Yet again PVE gets screwed because of PVP.

Bosmer now have a mechanic that allows them to be the fastest resource harvesters in the game. Please for the love of god stop complaining about the Bosmer's stealth being taken away. they are given other special skills to make up, and for you to complain about 3m of detect just makes me laugh so damn much. The Bosmer race literally got a buff when comparing all the race changes [edit].

[edited for baiting]

No. I don't care about Bosmers being the "fastest resource harvesters in the game." I care about my Bosmer thief being screwed because of some PVP garbage that has nothing to do with the game I play. I play PVE. LEAVE MY BOSMER ALONE.

rei91

Posting here for the first time, have played TES 2-5, and not so long - ESO. Just wanted to say...
"Breton
Gain 2310 Spell Resistance (instead of 3960)
Nord
Spell Resistance by 3960"
Wait... What... just... WHAT?
Breton were known across all the TES series as having the strongest spell resist due to their ancestors, originated from Tamriel and not Atmora, being paired with ancient tamrielic elves. And now you're saying that sturdy, mostly melee, have-nothing-to-do-with-mer Nords have TWO TIMES the SPELL resistance than magically talented, buffed-from-being-hybrid Bretons? Really?
That's just ridiculous.
I'm not even sure that I want to trade it for more magicka sustain.

Other against-the-lore issues I have with this are already mentioned above (again, Argonian lose their poison resistance to Bosmer? WHAT?), and I'm not sure what to think about Dunmer losing their fire affinity. (Already went and gave my newborn dunmer DK girl a pair of knives instead of staff. I hope now she won't be miserable in solo PVE like that).

Sorry for my English being funny.

Deathlord92

rei91 wrote: »

Posting here for the first time, have played TES 2-5, and not so long - ESO. Just wanted to say...
"Breton
Gain 2310 Spell Resistance (instead of 3960)
Nord
Spell Resistance by 3960"
Wait... What... just... WHAT?
Breton were known across all the TES series as having the strongest spell resist due to their ancestors, originated from Tamriel and not Atmora, being paired with ancient tamrielic elves. And now you're saying that sturdy, mostly melee, have-nothing-to-do-with-mer Nords have TWO TIMES the SPELL resistance than magically talented, buffed-from-being-hybrid Bretons? Really?
That's just ridiculous.
I'm not even sure that I want to trade it for more magicka sustain.

Other against-the-lore issues I have with this are already mentioned above (again, Argonian lose their poison resistance to Bosmer? WHAT?), and I'm not sure what to think about Dunmer losing their fire affinity. (Already went and gave my newborn dunmer DK girl a pair of knives instead of staff. I hope now she won't be miserable in solo PVE like that).

Sorry for my English being funny.

This person knows please leave my Breton spell resistance alone zos lore wise nothing beats Breton spell resistance nothing 🙂

jlmurra2

Deathlord92 wrote: »

rei91 wrote: »

Posting here for the first time, have played TES 2-5, and not so long - ESO. Just wanted to say...
"Breton
Gain 2310 Spell Resistance (instead of 3960)
Nord
Spell Resistance by 3960"
Wait... What... just... WHAT?
Breton were known across all the TES series as having the strongest spell resist due to their ancestors, originated from Tamriel and not Atmora, being paired with ancient tamrielic elves. And now you're saying that sturdy, mostly melee, have-nothing-to-do-with-mer Nords have TWO TIMES the SPELL resistance than magically talented, buffed-from-being-hybrid Bretons? Really?
That's just ridiculous.
I'm not even sure that I want to trade it for more magicka sustain.

Other against-the-lore issues I have with this are already mentioned above (again, Argonian lose their poison resistance to Bosmer? WHAT?), and I'm not sure what to think about Dunmer losing their fire affinity. (Already went and gave my newborn dunmer DK girl a pair of knives instead of staff. I hope now she won't be miserable in solo PVE like that).

Sorry for my English being funny.

This person knows please leave my Breton spell resistance alone zos lore wise nothing beats Breton spell resistance nothing 🙂

Agreed. I posted about this last week. It does contradict Elder Scrolls lore. If the Nord's, and Breton's planned spell resistance were exchanged then all would be good, or simply increase the Breton spell resistance over the Nord's by another 2k, whichever balances better.

grizzly375

All of this would have been completely negated if ZOS had followed a simple, FAIR formula.

Race passive 1 - Lore specific bonus: one lore-based racial resistance NOT immunity (e.g. Argonian poison, Dunmer flame, Breton magicka, etc); one lore specific "boon" (e.g. Redguard food buff extension); PLUS player choice of ONE experience increase with ONE weapon or armor style (destro staff, dual wield, heavy armor, etc).

Racial passive 2 - Player choice of physical damage OR spell damage OR increased healing OR increased physical/magicka resistance. The amount of the increase would scale with the toon as it progressed to a cap determined by ZOS mathletes (seems that 258 is the current number)

Racial passive 3 - Player choice of increased stam OR mag OR health with the amount of the benefit increasing by level - again to 2000 in any of the three

Racial passive 4 - Player choice of increased stam OR health OR mag recovery/ OR spell / physical crit chance increase

As it stands now, the races are too pigeon holed into specific roles, and some of the racial buffs make no sense. For instance - RG sword and board XP bonus - but, honestly, how many RGs are rolling tanks?

A system like this would let the players REALLY play any race any way they want. Nord magsorc? Sure, just pick the morphs to fit that role. Dunmer healer? No problem, pick the morphs that fit your role.

There are plenty of "unique" factors about each of the races in lore that each race would still have a specific "feel" without being unduly punished if a player wants to do something "unique."

The new system doesn't break the old metas, it just rearranges them in ways that aren't necessarily lore friendly, or player base friendly.

Grymmoire

grizzly375 wrote: »

All of this would have been completely negated if ZOS had followed a simple, FAIR formula.

*SNIP for brevity*

As it stands now, the races are too pigeon holed into specific roles, and some of the racial buffs make no sense. For instance - RG sword and board XP bonus - but, honestly, how many RGs are rolling tanks?

A system like this would let the players REALLY play any race any way they want. Nord magsorc? Sure, just pick the morphs to fit that role. Dunmer healer? No problem, pick the morphs that fit your role.

There are plenty of "unique" factors about each of the races in lore that each race would still have a specific "feel" without being unduly punished if a player wants to do something "unique."

The new system doesn't break the old metas, it just rearranges them in ways that aren't necessarily lore friendly, or player base friendly.

grizzly375 succinctly delineates almost exactly what I have stated.

IF freedom of play is a primary goal and not secondary to selective game lore, then a simplistic approach to balance is obviously more achievable by permitting any race to choose from categories of select passives, then let the choice of class; abilities; gear; weapons; enchantments; attribute distribution; monster sets: mundus stones and champion point distribution dictate uniqueness. This would empower players in gaining true freedom of game play style, eliminate pigeon-holed builds.

I encourage an even more simple approach to balance by removing passives all together and, adjust any base game stats (health, magicka and stamina) then allowing the above denoted system allow the creation of unique builds, with the possibility of reduced server load due to reduced mathematical game calculations.

So, again why work on shuffling passives and not a simpler, less complicated way forward? Just for lore flavor?

Kalle_Demos

hakan wrote: »

Now looking at lore, dunmers never had flame damage just destruction bonus and lots of races had that. Weird enough they had spark ability at the start of the game in Skyrim.

And they also have bonuses with sneak and speed but they got no bonuses for those either. attack speed would be interesting.

Fire, ice and lighting are the elemental disciplines that define the Destruction School of Magic. Dunmer have always had an edge in Destruction and the only other race that matched them are the Altmer. Morrowind is known for it's volcanic activity and it's skies often filled with ember and ash. Dunmer reflect their home physically with their ashen skin and red eyes. The association with fire is obvious.

Kalle_Demos

rei91 wrote: »

Posting here for the first time, have played TES 2-5, and not so long - ESO. Just wanted to say...
"Breton
Gain 2310 Spell Resistance (instead of 3960)
Nord
Spell Resistance by 3960"
Wait... What... just... WHAT?
Breton were known across all the TES series as having the strongest spell resist due to their ancestors, originated from Tamriel and not Atmora, being paired with ancient tamrielic elves. And now you're saying that sturdy, mostly melee, have-nothing-to-do-with-mer Nords have TWO TIMES the SPELL resistance than magically talented, buffed-from-being-hybrid Bretons? Really?
That's just ridiculous.
I'm not even sure that I want to trade it for more magicka sustain.

Other against-the-lore issues I have with this are already mentioned above (again, Argonian lose their poison resistance to Bosmer? WHAT?), and I'm not sure what to think about Dunmer losing their fire affinity. (Already went and gave my newborn dunmer DK girl a pair of knives instead of staff. I hope now she won't be miserable in solo PVE like that).

Sorry for my English being funny.

The Dunmer bonus to fire damage affected enchanted weapons, armor sets and Monster Masks. Sadly you are getting a nerf even without choosing the path of the staff as well.

Deathlord92

jlmurra2 wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

rei91 wrote: »

Posting here for the first time, have played TES 2-5, and not so long - ESO. Just wanted to say...
"Breton
Gain 2310 Spell Resistance (instead of 3960)
Nord
Spell Resistance by 3960"
Wait... What... just... WHAT?
Breton were known across all the TES series as having the strongest spell resist due to their ancestors, originated from Tamriel and not Atmora, being paired with ancient tamrielic elves. And now you're saying that sturdy, mostly melee, have-nothing-to-do-with-mer Nords have TWO TIMES the SPELL resistance than magically talented, buffed-from-being-hybrid Bretons? Really?
That's just ridiculous.
I'm not even sure that I want to trade it for more magicka sustain.

Other against-the-lore issues I have with this are already mentioned above (again, Argonian lose their poison resistance to Bosmer? WHAT?), and I'm not sure what to think about Dunmer losing their fire affinity. (Already went and gave my newborn dunmer DK girl a pair of knives instead of staff. I hope now she won't be miserable in solo PVE like that).

Sorry for my English being funny.

This person knows please leave my Breton spell resistance alone zos lore wise nothing beats Breton spell resistance nothing 🙂

Agreed. I posted about this last week. It does contradict Elder Scrolls lore. If the Nord's, and Breton's planned spell resistance were exchanged then all would be good, or simply increase the Breton spell resistance over the Nord's by another 2k, whichever balances better.

Agreed m8 I hope zos reads and think on all the positive feedback we are giving em I have faith Breton are masters of spell resistance always have been

Deathlord92

grizzly375 wrote: »

All of this would have been completely negated if ZOS had followed a simple, FAIR formula.

Race passive 1 - Lore specific bonus: one lore-based racial resistance NOT immunity (e.g. Argonian poison, Dunmer flame, Breton magicka, etc); one lore specific "boon" (e.g. Redguard food buff extension); PLUS player choice of ONE experience increase with ONE weapon or armor style (destro staff, dual wield, heavy armor, etc).

Racial passive 2 - Player choice of physical damage OR spell damage OR increased healing OR increased physical/magicka resistance. The amount of the increase would scale with the toon as it progressed to a cap determined by ZOS mathletes (seems that 258 is the current number)

Racial passive 3 - Player choice of increased stam OR mag OR health with the amount of the benefit increasing by level - again to 2000 in any of the three

Racial passive 4 - Player choice of increased stam OR health OR mag recovery/ OR spell / physical crit chance increase

As it stands now, the races are too pigeon holed into specific roles, and some of the racial buffs make no sense. For instance - RG sword and board XP bonus - but, honestly, how many RGs are rolling tanks?

A system like this would let the players REALLY play any race any way they want. Nord magsorc? Sure, just pick the morphs to fit that role. Dunmer healer? No problem, pick the morphs that fit your role.

There are plenty of "unique" factors about each of the races in lore that each race would still have a specific "feel" without being unduly punished if a player wants to do something "unique."

The new system doesn't break the old metas, it just rearranges them in ways that aren't necessarily lore friendly, or player base friendly.

Tho I do like this I am playing a Breton stamblade because I favour Breton and assassin Breton lore passive would be spell resistance and argonian poison disease resistance think in skyrim it was just disease resistance not all races have such strong lore passives but I’d certainly love to have strong stam passives for Breton always have just don’t want to meddle with the lore 🙂

hakan

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

hakan wrote: »

Now looking at lore, dunmers never had flame damage just destruction bonus and lots of races had that. Weird enough they had spark ability at the start of the game in Skyrim.

And they also have bonuses with sneak and speed but they got no bonuses for those either. attack speed would be interesting.

Fire, ice and lighting are the elemental disciplines that define the Destruction School of Magic. Dunmer have always had an edge in Destruction and the only other race that matched them are the Altmer. Morrowind is known for it's volcanic activity and it's skies often filled with ember and ash. Dunmer reflect their home physically with their ashen skin and red eyes. The association with fire is obvious.

and in return they get hp, flame resist and burning status immunity plus less lava damage. never saw a fire booster ability. they had the most destro bonus so that spell damage in ruination passive should be around 330 ish imo.

and they had sneak, speed bonuses but they never got them. speed while sneaking would be a good bonus. but considering they dont care about the lore, i wont hold my breath.

Draxinusom

So I want to finally write down my thoughts on how the Argonian's Elephant in the Room passive, resourceful, has been missvalued and caused unmerited and far too strong nerfs on Argonians across the board.

Luckily, we've got some great explanations for the motivation of some of these changes, so there's a basis to argument on. I'll be using some simple algebra and logic to show that the current game's Argonian racials have been overvalued - not only a bit but by a large amount - and this should be corrected going forwards. While the devs haven't precisely stated how each race or racial has been valued exactly, it isn't necessary to know those values when comparing different races between each other. You can think of it like a traditional weighing scale with two plates. The value of a race's racial are different weighs on one side. While each weigh is unknown to you (in how heavy it is, ie. how much it contributes) you can still experiment and take weighs off both sides and if you take away the same amount on each side, the scale will not move at all.

So let's get started. For my example to work, I need to compare another race to Argonians. I take Wood Elf here, but the method taken works with any other race.

Note that I work on the current game's racial, not the proposed changes.

Step 1: As a preparation step, I'll remove the "fluff" racial outright. Bonus to skill line experience gain is irrelevant once levelled and the extra bonus is so negligible that only the most ardent nitpicker would ever debate over which one is better.

Argonian

Wood Elf

Increases experience gain in Resto Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 50% Swimming Speed

Increases experience gain in Bow Skill Line by 15%, decreases fall damage taken by 10%

Resourceful: Gain 3% Max Magicka and restore 4620 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion

Y’ffre’s Endurance: 21% Stamina Recovery

Argonian Resistance: 9% Max Health and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance

Resist Affliction: 6% Max Stamina and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance

Quick to Mend: 5% Healing Done and Received

Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10%

Step 2: This is now the baseline for comparison between two races. Since it is claimed that Argonians are "too good" ie. have too much weigh, we just declare the right side, the Wood Elf, to be at nominal "1" base level and the Argonian racial's weight to be unknown, but larger (ie. more than 1). Basically the formula is x > 1 comparing left to right side. But now I replace the Argonian on the left side with an Argonian that is exactly the same, but lacks the resourceful passive. It becomes clear later on why I do this, so hang in there for now:

Argonian-without-recourceful

Wood Elf

Y’ffre’s Endurance: 21% Stamina Recovery

Argonian Resistance: 9% Max Health and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance

Resist Affliction: 6% Max Stamina and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance

Quick to Mend: 5% Healing Done and Received

Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10%

Step 3: Having removed the Resourceful passive, the formula now becomes x ?> 1, ie. maybe left side is still more valuable than the right side. This is what we want to find out. So now I start removing equal value racials (or parts of them). If they are of the same value, nothing changes the relation between the left and the right side. I start first with the resistances which is easy here with Wood Elf, since they are essentially the same:

Argonian-without-recourceful

Wood Elf

Y’ffre’s Endurance: 21% Stamina Recovery

Argonian Resistance: 9% Max Health and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance

Resist Affliction: 6% Max Stamina and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance

Quick to Mend: 5% Healing Done and Received

Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10%

Step 4: Now I just remove flat stats on both sides by the same amount, so the 9% Max Health minus 6% max stamina removes the racial on the right side and reduces the one on the left side to 3%:

Argonian-without-recourceful

Wood Elf

Y’ffre’s Endurance: 21% Stamina Recovery

Argonian Resistance: 3% Max Health

Quick to Mend: 5% Healing Done and Received

Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10%

Step 5: And here we are now. We need now to determine which side has more weigh to it (ie. which side has the more valuable racials). Is 3% Max Health and 5% Healing Done and Received more valuable than 21% Stamina recovery and reduced detection radius and 10% increased damage done in stealth? It's important to note that we removed Argonians' resourceful in step 2, so we really only compare a hypothetical Argonian-without-resourceful to Wood Elf. The question here is: left > right or left < right.
While it's not easy to compare effects that are not always "on", I think the sheer number advantage of an 21% multiplicator vs. a 3% wins the comparison here and declare that in this comparison, Wood Elf has the more valuable racials:

Argonian-without-recourceful

Wood Elf

Y’ffre’s Endurance: 21% Stamina Recovery

Argonian Resistance: 3% Max Health

Quick to Mend: 5% Healing Done and Received

Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10%

Step 6: So what did that give us? This gives us an ordering relation, left < right. Since in Step 2 we declared the right side to be normalized base value of 1 and only taking away equal weighted items left and right each, we now know that the result in step 5 means that Argonian-without-resourceful is less valuable than 1. This seemingly gets us nowhere as I took out the resourceful passive from the left side in Step 2 before starting the transformations. But no, we now add this gem, which is the lynchpin of it all: The developer comments to Argonian clearly states:

"Previously Argonians offered far too many stats and they were mathematically twice as good as some races."

So I just add the resourceful passive back into the left side again. Before re-adding resourceful back, we found that the entire racial's value is less than 1: x < 1. Now with above comment from the Developers, we know that Argonians have twice the mathematical stat weight than others. But if the entire statweight was less than 1 before readding, this means that the Resourceful passive itself carries a stat weight that must be larger than 1 ! (Mathematically before readding: x < 1, adding passive r back in + developers comment: x + r >= 2, where it follows that r must be greater than 1: -> r > 1).

What does that mean? It means that the single racial passive resourceful has the same valuation, the same weight as all Wood Elf racials together at once! This literally says that:

Resourceful: Gain 3% Max Magicka and restore 4620 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion

has the same value or even more value as:

Y’ffre’s Endurance: 21% Stamina Recovery
Resist Affliction: 6% Max Stamina and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance
Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10%

It should be plain obvious that this can't even be remotely true. But if this is not true, then Developer's comment that Argonians are mathematically twice as good as others cannot be true. And I firmly belive this wrong statement comes from a wrong valuation of the Argonians' resourceful passive, which is why I removed it initially before moving it back in in step 6.

Note that the developer's comment does not say versus which race Argonians are twice as good. I've done this comparison on paper with 5 other races and the result was always the same.

But wait, there's more! In fact if you just take the Developer's comment about Argonian passives being twice as strong as other races, leads to a very simple formula:
Argonians = 2 * otherRaces

So instead of nerfing racials, let's just buff them, shall we? But how? Very easy. Since the value has been given to us: 2. So if above formula were true, which is the equivalence of saying that the Developer's comment is true, then we just have to double the effect carrying values of another racial and claim that the Racials are now fair and equal. In case of Wood Elf, this would mean that this would be fair and equal:

Argonian

Wood Elf-doubled

Increases experience gain in Resto Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 50% Swimming Speed

Increases experience gain in Bow Skill Line by 15%, decreases fall damage taken by 10%

Resourceful: Gain 3% Max Magicka and restore 4620 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion

Y’ffre’s Endurance: 42% Stamina Recovery

Argonian Resistance: 9% Max Health and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance

Resist Affliction: 12% Max Stamina and 2970 Poison and Disease Resistance

Quick to Mend: 5% Healing Done and Received

Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 6m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 20%

or how about against Dark Elves?

Argonian

Dark Elf-doubled

Increases experience gain in Resto Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 50% Swimming Speed

Increases Experience gain in Destruction Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Generic Experience gain

Resourceful: Gain 3% Max Magicka and restore 4620 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion

Spellcharge: 18% Magicka Recovery

Argonian Resistance: 9% Max Health and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance

Gift of Magnus: 20% Max Magicka

Quick to Mend: 5% Healing Done and Received

Elemental Talent: 8% Fire/Shock/Ice damage

Again: We don't know against which race Argonians were valued twice as good, however this is easy to do and it's very easy to see that this is very far from being equal and balanced and nobody would take Argonian's racials over the other's racial.

Result:
This again shows that the Developer's statement about Argonians twice as good racials must be wrong. I strongly believe that the Resourceful passive has been massively overvalued and as a consequence above statement made. And also this led to an unfair and overreaching nerf of Argonian racials in this first pass.

Dear @ZOS_Gilliam please read this carefully and prior to the next pass, re-evaluate the weighing of the passives. I do agree that Resourceful is a strong one and could do with a nerf, however your assessment of it's value is exorbitant and led to unfair nerfing of Argonians in their entirety.

Thanks for reading!