Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21

Seraphayel

Carbonised wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

We focused mainly on improving the identity of each race with the adjustments

How about the forced "identity" of Dunmer as apparently a "hybrid" race, in a game where "hybrid" gameplay is completely unviable due to the game design? Or the "identity" of being a clear cut magic oriented race for five(!) years in ESO, suddenly to get turned into a "hybrid" overnight?

You gonna adress that too?

Dunmer is still a top pick for Magicka. So I don't see any problem here. And instead of "hybrid" which indicates you can do both but are not excelling at either I'd use "versatile" but that's exactly what Dunmer and Khajiit will be after the update - the two races that are viable and competitive in both Magicka and Stamina.

Being number 4, behind Altmer, Breton and Khajiit, as all the data shows, is certainly not a "top pick". So maybe if you don't see the problem, you should do the math.

Being number 4 with a difference of 300-1000 DPS depending on the class (which is about dealing ~0.5-1% less DPS) for sure is not a problem (unless you make it one). In some Class/Race combos Dunmer is even the best or second best choice - again, with the minimal differences it doesn't really matter.

I doubt that 99.99% of the complainers would ever achieve the numbers in the parses so it means nothing in the end. The differences exist on paper, they won't exist in real PvE scenarios except for the very very very few 0.01% top DPS who have the performance (in game and due to their PC/internet connection), skills and conditions to make it work.

FilteredRiddle

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Khajiit

• Increases Experience gain in Medium Armor Skill Line by 15%, 5% bonus change to successfully pickpocket → No changes
• Nimble: 20% Health Recovery and 10% Stamina Recovery → Robustness: Increases your Health Recovery by 100 and your Stamina and Magicka recovery by 75.
• Stealthy: Reduce detection radius by 3m and Increase damage from Stealth by 10% → Lunar Blessings: Increases your Max Health, Magicka, and Stamina by 750.
• Carnage: Increase Weapon Critical Chance by 8% → Feline Ambush: Increases your Weapon and Spell Critical Chance by 8%. Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 5m.

Developer Comment

The Khajiiti race is one of intrigue and versatility, with a natural ability to adapt to any walk of life. Under the guidance of the moons they can fulfil any role, with a well-rounded bonus to all resources. We also wanted to better demonstrate their keenness for subterfuge and trickery, so they now have more access to critical strike chance and sneaking potential, regardless of what proficiency they build into.

I've been focused mostly on Imperial, but the more I read this the less it makes sense. Khajiit.. magic... what? From a game Lore's perspective, there is literally zero background for these changes. The "Developer Comment" is shenanigans.

Arena
• expert climbers, able to scale chasm wall sides with speed unmatched by any other race
• adept at all arts involving thieving and sleight of hand

Daggerfall
• +10 Endurance (hit points, healing rate, resistance to poisons and diseases, and fatigue/stamina)
• +10 Luck (odds of succeeding in any skill trial is modified by your luck)
• -10 Willpower (resistance to spell effects and the ease of increasing willpower/magic-related skills)
• -10 Agility (ability to hit a target, to avoid getting hit, and the ease of increasing agility-related skills)

Morrowind
• +15 Acrobatics (jumping, climbing, and avoiding damage from falls)
• +5 Athletics (trains and conditions one for running and swimming)
• +5 Hand-to-Hand (unarmed combat)
• +5 Light Armor (light-weight, flexible armors like leather, fur)
• +5 Security (open locked doors and containers, disarm traps)
• +5 Short Blade (short, quick, thrusting weapons like daggers, short swords)
• +5 Sneak (moving unseen and unheard; allows for critical hits)
• Night Eye 50pts for 30sec on Self (able to see in the dark)
• Demoralize Humanoid 100pts for 30sec on Target (Increases the target's Flee value by M)

Oblivion
• +10 Agility (ability to maneuver and balance, your total Fatigue, and damage done by bows)
• +10 Acrobatics (allows your character to jump higher and fall greater distances without taking damage)
• +10 Hand to Hand (how well your character can attack enemies using only fists)
• +5 Athletics (how quickly you run and swim; Fatigue regenerates progressively faster)
• +5 Blade (how well your character can use short handled sharp weapons such as daggers, swords)
• +5 Light Armor (how much protection is provided by Fur, Leather, Chainmail)
• +5 Security (a polite word for lockpicking)
• +5 Sneak (move around undetected, pick pockets, and do more damage if you attack while sneaking)
• -10 Willpower (how quickly you regenerate Magicka, and how much Fatigue you have)
• -10 Endurance (max Fatigue, your HP, and how much your HP will increase when you sleep and raise levels)
• -10 Strength (how much you can carry, how much Fatigue you have, and how much damage you can do with melee weapons)
• Demoralize up to level 25 for 30 sec on Target, once per day (Decrease target's willingness to fight)
• Night-Eye for 30 seconds on Self (allows you to see in the dark for D seconds)

Skyrim
• +10 Sneak
• +5 Alchemy
• +5 Archery
• +5 Lockpicking
• +5 One-handed
• +5 Pickpocket
• Claws do 12 points of damage in addition to their base damage value of 10 points for unarmed combat
• Improved night vision for 60 seconds, multiple times per day
• Improved resistance to cold environments by 15 points
• Eat raw meat without risk of disease

The repeated trend is stealth, acrobatics/climbing, lockpicking, pickpocketing, hand-to-hand, and luck/crits. In the two games where there were negative modifiers, Khajiit specifically had negative magic attributes. Health, strength, robustness, etc is also either ignored or specifically negated. The changes you are making for Khajiit do not make sense. If you want Khajiit to be unique, and still make sense in a TES game you should do it in a way which actually respects the lore. It genuinely feels like whomever made the Khajiit suggestions never played a TES game and had no clue who or what Khajiit are in the context of Tamriel.

I suggest the following would make exponentially more sense:

• Increases Experience gain in Medium Armor Skill Line by 15%, 5% bonus chance to successfully pickpocket → No changes
• 20% Health Recovery and 10% Stamina Recovery → Increases your Max Stamina by 1000 and your Stamina Recovery by 100
• Reduce detection radius by 3m and Increase damage from Stealth by 10% → Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 5m and Increase damage from Stealth by 5%.
• Increase Weapon Critical Chance by 8% → No changes

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam

Mygalomorpea

I just hope they add some form of sustain to Imperial. Since they are clearly focused on making it tank only, adding some magicka amd/or stamina sustain and reducing the heal which... Well... Is very low for tanks and very high for pvp... This would make them more viable as a dps race while still mainly buffing the tanking. (yes, I main a imperial dps)

Nifty2g

Carbonised wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

We focused mainly on improving the identity of each race with the adjustments

How about the forced "identity" of Dunmer as apparently a "hybrid" race, in a game where "hybrid" gameplay is completely unviable due to the game design? Or the "identity" of being a clear cut magic oriented race for five(!) years in ESO, suddenly to get turned into a "hybrid" overnight?

You gonna adress that too?

Actually you're wrong, Dunmer used to be a stamina oriented race. There were a lot of Stamina Dunmers around.

& Lore wise they can actually do both so whatever

commdt

When will we see racial active abilities? 1 per race would be nice

Seraphayel

commdt wrote: »

When will we see racial active abilities? 1 per race would be nice

Interesting idea but unfortunately 99% of that will be complaints about "why does my racial suck" and just 1% will be fun.

amir412

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Greetings again everyone! Just wanted to give a quick update that we're planning on making some adjustments to the racial passives in the coming weeks on the PTS based on much of your feedback. We focused mainly on improving the identity of each race with the adjustments by either improving on key areas such as a boost to Resourceful for Argonians, or enhancing the accessibility some of the bonuses provide, such as a small redesign to Red Diamond for Imperials. Aside from numerical tweaks, new small bonuses, and slight redesigns, we have a change to the calculation for how Champion Points increase your Health, Magicka, and Stamina to make it easier to follow and impact more things that you'd expect.

Thank you again everyone for the feedback, we'll have more to share on the delivery of racial changes for Update 21 when we're ready, so keep an eye out on that Dev Tracker, and we can't wait for you all to get your hands on some of the changes!

Im confused, this is a tease for upcoming nerf to CP system? does it mean cp will affect more or less stats?

macsmooth

I still don’t get why they never changed skill lines to mean something after they get to level 50

Imperial and Redguard s&b to have reduce cost for that skill line only
Nords 2h to have reduced cost for that skill line only
Dunmer dual wield to have reduced cost for that skill line only
And so on through bow, destruction staff and restoration staff races
Breton light armour to have reduced cost for that skill line only and the ability to use the skill regardless of armour weight or more buff from passives
Khajiit medium Armor to have reduced cost for that skill line only and the ability to use the skill regardless of armour weight or more buff from passives
And so on with heavy armour

CleymenZero

CLiPPx wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

CLiPPx wrote: »

1 Race Change Token

What a slap in the face to all of your customers. With a HUGE change to racial passives, and ultimately changing the way the game is played, you should definitely reconsider your measly single race change token to match the number of characters an account has.

Or...

Like someone else previously stated: Give us a time period of unlimited, free race changes.

Been a customer since '14 and this is the first time I've been disappointed with ESO.

Or roll with the change and challenge yourself in making an off-meta build with the races you have been given that replaces the meta?

3rd option is easier, you explore the content without looking like a tool-bag or spending $400 dollars for no reason lol.

Ehem...did I ask for your opinion? My comment was obviously not for you, yet you felt compelled to give me your two cents anyway. Such a bag of tools YOU are.

"Roll with the change"...I take it you're a "Yes Man" and are either oblivious to--or accept--when you're being taken advantage of and don't fight back.

Anyway...when I created new characters, I created them based on their racial passives. Many hours, years even, were spent leveling and grinding to get where I'm at today. Now that the devs are doing an overhaul on racial passives, maybe...just maybe myself and 96% of other ESO players want to respec or race change due to the overhaul, which was out of our control. It only makes sense to offer a race change token for each of your characters to maintain/bolster customer trust and respect. It's not just about meta/off-meta or whatever.

ZOS: Haaayyy friend! 😏

Me: Sup

ZOS: Listen, I've got something to tell you and I'm not sure how you're gonna feel about it...😅

Me: Uh oh, go on...🤨🤔

ZOS: I know you've invested ~$600 in sub fees on and off over the past few years and spent 60+ days in-game time across all of your characters, but we're gonna go ahead and change all of your character's passives. So now, what used to work, won't anymore 😉. BAAAALLAAAANCE

Me: Ok, cool. I have no problem with that, but...you're going to let me race change for free since you're changing all of the passives, right?🤔

ZOS: Oh, no! Only gonna give you one race change token and you're going to have to pay for the rest of your characters if you want them changed 🤪

Me: Uhhh, excuse me? That's not a good look ZOSsy-poo. If all my characters that I've spent hundreds of hours on, which I still enjoy currently, won't yield the results I'm looking for due to your change, I'm going to have to race change them all!🤯

ZOS: Duh. 🤑

Me: You're seriously only giving us one free token?! You're expecting us to pay $30/toon because YOU decided to change everything. But that's out of my control and unwarranted.😠🤢

ZOS: Deal with it sucker. I know plenty of players that will pay!🤫🤑🤑

Me: I hate you right now.😑 (a love-hate feeling more or less)


Heck, I'd be ok with four tokens, but one?! Serious slap in the face.

Not enough of us right now complaining. And if we fought and got our tokens, everyone that told us to shut up would be so happy. I don't get them.

If you don't want the race-change token, don't use em. I need them and it is so obvious to anyone, for fairness' sake, that them turning the racial passives up and down should make them give us free race-change token. So /$%/$"? stupid!

Also, to those who say dumb things like "adapt to having non-meta race and gitgud". It is the single most stupid thing one can read.

Nefas did an interview with the leaders of the top-scoring guilds in the game. Here's what they have to say about the Meta and people not playing meta:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjjfFN7b8VE&t=644s

If you still don't understand why I'm upset with them not compensating for their changes, you simply don't understand the matter and your inability to understand prevents the conversation from going forward.

I love the changes, don't think I have to pay to adapt. If you could grind race-change tokens, I would. Even then, if you still want to make money, do a sale for 10 for 5k crowns. That's 50$ man give me a break!

Kalle_Demos

Dracane wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Ddera wrote: »

Why the change to dunmer? It makes no sense to ruin their small fire bonus.
There's absolutely no reason to play a dunmer with these racial tratis, if you want a glass for either magic or weapon damage.


All the builds that was based on that small fire damage perk are useless, too. Keep the fire damage perk, at least. Destroy the rest if you want!

I agree. Dunmer proclivity towards Destruction Magic (I.E. Fire Damage) has been a defining trait throughout the ES series. As with the issue surrounding Bosmer Stealth, this change seems opposed to the stated goals of the Racial Update with regards to Lore, diversity, racial identity and playing as one will. Players have been building Dunmer characters with the Fire Damage Passive in mind for years, why the sudden and abrupt change?

As I understand, Dunmer were always competitive with Altmer as a Magic based race and this has been reflected in lore. With the changes it seems this will no longer be the case. Updating the Dunmer capacity for a more Stamina rich experience is fine and in line with their duality as the Spellsword archetype as opposed to the Alter Mage but their Magical capacity in game shouldn't suffer in exchange.

Not at all, never. Not in Morrowind, not in Oblivion, not in Skyrim. Dunmer never was even compareable to Altmer and Breton. (I actually revisited all racials of those games to be certain)

In fact, Dunmer in Morrowind and Oblivion had stats more fitting for a physical based character and only a bit for magic. While Altmer always was pure magic, Breton as well. If there is a race that could be considered closely related to those, it would be Argonian.

The new ESO racials are more lore friendly than they had ever been. On the contrary, thus far, they were far from lore friendly.

As you well know, gameplay and lore do not always intertwine perfectly and mechanics change from game to game. Even still the Dunmer attunement to Magic cannot be dismissed. For example the Bosmer have a natural Chameleon like ability that has yet to be represented in gameplay. That doesn't mean that it can't or shouldn't be considered. Dunmeri lore is awash with references to their strong affinity for Magic. They are, aside from the remaining Ayleids, the closest living relatives to the Altmer. They have a similarly extremely long lifespan, a sign of the more Magically inclined. They host a collection of some of the most powerful and long lived Mages in Tamriel. No other races but the Altmer can boast an equivalent. The Dunmer are the Altmer only real rival in terms of Magic in Tamriel. That they are also skilled in martial arts does not discount this.

Dracane

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Ddera wrote: »

Why the change to dunmer? It makes no sense to ruin their small fire bonus.
There's absolutely no reason to play a dunmer with these racial tratis, if you want a glass for either magic or weapon damage.


All the builds that was based on that small fire damage perk are useless, too. Keep the fire damage perk, at least. Destroy the rest if you want!

I agree. Dunmer proclivity towards Destruction Magic (I.E. Fire Damage) has been a defining trait throughout the ES series. As with the issue surrounding Bosmer Stealth, this change seems opposed to the stated goals of the Racial Update with regards to Lore, diversity, racial identity and playing as one will. Players have been building Dunmer characters with the Fire Damage Passive in mind for years, why the sudden and abrupt change?

As I understand, Dunmer were always competitive with Altmer as a Magic based race and this has been reflected in lore. With the changes it seems this will no longer be the case. Updating the Dunmer capacity for a more Stamina rich experience is fine and in line with their duality as the Spellsword archetype as opposed to the Alter Mage but their Magical capacity in game shouldn't suffer in exchange.

Not at all, never. Not in Morrowind, not in Oblivion, not in Skyrim. Dunmer never was even compareable to Altmer and Breton. (I actually revisited all racials of those games to be certain)

In fact, Dunmer in Morrowind and Oblivion had stats more fitting for a physical based character and only a bit for magic. While Altmer always was pure magic, Breton as well. If there is a race that could be considered closely related to those, it would be Argonian.

The new ESO racials are more lore friendly than they had ever been. On the contrary, thus far, they were far from lore friendly.

As you well know, gameplay and lore do not always intertwine perfectly and mechanics change from game to game. Even still the Dunmer attunement to Magic cannot be dismissed. For example the Bosmer have a natural Chameleon like ability that has yet to be represented in gameplay. That doesn't mean that it can't or shouldn't be considered. Dunmeri lore is awash with references to their strong affinity for Magic. They are, aside from the remaining Ayleids, the closest living relatives to the Altmer. They have a similarly extremely long lifespan, a sign of the more Magically inclined. They host a collection of some of the most powerful and long lived Mages in Tamriel. No other races but the Altmer can boast an equivalent. The Dunmer are the Altmer only real rival in terms of Magic in Tamriel. That they are also skilled in martial arts does not discount this.

Nobody denies that they are capable, but definately not as stellar as some people make them out to be. Dunmer are top tier in eso, still and there is no room for complains in my opinion.

Here is the thing. It's logical that Dunmer are physically more capable than magically. They are impure abominations. The Altmer are so gifted because they are in the image of the gods, while Dunmer have been corrupted by daedric influence. Thus cutting their connection to the divine spark. Which obviously made them more vigorous, but severed their magical affinity. I know they like to view themselves as master mages. It must be the ash or the fumes from salty tears.

rexagamemnon

#makeimperialsgreatagain

Instead of gutting the only race that required a “upgrade”, perhaps you guys should listen to the community and try again at the racial passives for imperials. Because they are now by far the worst race to play as. And now their is no incentive to purchase the imperial edition upgrade. Even the colovian nibenese idea would have been a fair comprimise

silvereyes

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Aside from numerical tweaks, new small bonuses, and slight redesigns, we have a change to the calculation for how Champion Points increase your Health, Magicka, and Stamina to make it easier to follow and impact more things that you'd expect.

Hrm. Perhaps doing away with percents and moving to flat bonuses as well? Would be nice to not have to worry about jump points and rounding, or confusion about what the base values are that the percents apply to. But of course, the devil would be in the numbers.

Edit: I just re-read Gill's words, and he's talking about stat increases, not individual Champion bonuses, so I guess it wouldn't really effect jump points. Still, the formula for calculating the stats boost for CP is pretty esoteric, so I think a flat value per CP would definitely make a lot of sense, given the move to flat values in the racial passives as well. Besides being easier to understand, making more calculations independent of variable things like attribute points and gear also seems like it could open up some interesting optimization options server-side.

Dracane

silvereyes wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Aside from numerical tweaks, new small bonuses, and slight redesigns, we have a change to the calculation for how Champion Points increase your Health, Magicka, and Stamina to make it easier to follow and impact more things that you'd expect.

Hrm. Perhaps doing away with percents and moving to flat bonuses as well? Would be nice to not have to worry about jump points and rounding, or confusion about what the base values are that the percents apply to. But of course, the devil would be in the numbers.

Edit: I just re-read Gill's words, and he's talking about stat increases, not individual Champion bonuses, so I guess it wouldn't really effect jump points. Still, the formula for calculating the stats boost for CP is pretty esoteric, so I think a flat value per CP would definitely make a lot of sense, given the move to flat values in the racial passives as well. Besides being easier to understand, making more calculations independent of variable things like attribute points and gear also seems like it could open up some interesting optimization options server-side.

It's hard to understand what he wrote there. I am still not certain.
At first it sounded like they want to streamline CP bonuses. Right now it indeed sounds like they want to let CP affect the things that we expect them to. Sets, bufffood, racials. I hope I am right.

winterbornb14_ESO

Leave the Imperial % health bonus alone.

The change will KILL not nerf the reason I purchased the Imperial Edition. The Health tank (BlazePlar) is only viable with high health and this change effects all of its skills that are health based. They already nerfed Blazing shield into the ground due to PvP cries so DPS isn't an issue.

Are health tanks P2W?
Are heath tanks topping the raid charts?
Is another class play style a bad thing?
How does the extra health hurt the game?

ZOS_Gilliam your need to make all changes to a flat number is going to hurt the game and *** off customers.

BTW it is the only other Tank play style/build and is the only Tank build that people with some disabilities can play effectively.

If you change it because you don't know what it will do customers then I want a refund.

Leave it alone...............

burglar

winterbornb14_ESO wrote: »

Leave the Imperial % health bonus alone.

The change will KILL not nerf the reason I purchased the Imperial Edition. The Health tank (BlazePlar) is only viable with high health and this change effects all of its skills that are health based. They already nerfed Blazing shield into the ground due to PvP cries so DPS isn't an issue.

Are health tanks P2W?
Are heath tanks topping the raid charts?
Is another class play style a bad thing?
How does the extra health hurt the game?

ZOS_Gilliam your need to make all changes to a flat number is going to hurt the game and *** off customers.

BTW it is the only other Tank play style/build and is the only Tank build that people with some disabilities can play effectively.

If you change it because you don't know what it will do customers then I want a refund.

Leave it alone...............

Can you please explain why you're against having flat values, and would rather have percentages?

You might be losing out on that single 'big bonus' from the racial with these changes, but you are gaining a higher base value, which is used when calculating the additive bonuses applied with percentages. In the long run, this will make the game more balanced, and easier to make changes that make sense. These changes sort of prevent races from making balancing the game too difficult, and they're not really much of a nerf.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I understand these changes to work:

Say your base health is 30,000 after applying any flat value bonuses.

Before the changes:

* Entropy; 5% bonus: 30,000 * .05 = 1500
* Imperial race bonus; 12% bonus: 30,000 * .12 = 3600
* Max Health: 30,000 * 1.17 = 35,100

After the changes:

* New Imperial Bonus; 2000 added base health.
* Entropy; 5% bonus: 32,000 * .05 = 1600
* Max Health: 32,000 * 1.05 = 33,600

You're thinking, damn, I would lose 1500 hp, but what do you think happens when you start stacking percentages? Let's say you had a bonus of 25%?

Before the changes: 30,000 * 1.25 = 37,500

After the changes: 32,000 * 1.25 = 40,000

Maybe you will argue, "Without the imperial bonus, it's going to be much harder to achieve such a high percentage bonus." Well, then let's consider that, and we will say that after the changes, you can't easily get +25% max health, and instead can only achieve 25% - 12% = 13%,

after the changes: 32,000 * 1.13 = 36,160

Hmm, 1340 difference. That seems like a big impact but this is only this one scenario assuming the same number of modifiers exist in the game. If the game is updated so that big percentage modifiers are on sets instead of on races, then if you can reach that 25% value, you're going to have more health than you would have had prior to the changes.

You might be giving up 1k health on at the min/max end of the spectrum, but you will reach those higher values more easily, meaning you can apply stats elsewhere once you reach your target levels of health. If you want to have a meme build where you just have the most health as possible, yeah, these changes might hinder that a little bit.

Uryel

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

I agree. Dunmer proclivity towards Destruction Magic (I.E. Fire Damage) has been a defining trait throughout the ES series. As with the issue surrounding Bosmer Stealth, this change seems opposed to the stated goals of the Racial Update with regards to Lore, diversity, racial identity and playing as one will. Players have been building Dunmer characters with the Fire Damage Passive in mind for years, why the sudden and abrupt change?

This. Although I am personnaly more concerned about the Bosmer change, both Bosmers and Dunmers are getting hit by a non lore friendly stick here. Maybe the stat change isn't that bad for Dunmers, since they get spell power instead, meaning any magic ability would get a slight boost, abd fire damage on the other hand will be lowered a tad bit... But there is no way this could fit the lore. Or what people had in the solo games over almost 3 decades.

And don't get me started on Bosmers and the loss of stealth. The stealth detection bonus that replaces the stealth bonus has no use whatsoever in PvE and only a marginal use in PvP.

People complained about sneaky Bosmer snipers in PvP ? Well they will complain about sneakier Khajiit snipers now. And for those who will remain Bosmer, they will simply see you guys coming from a mile away if you try sneaking upon them. And that's the whole use of the new bonus. There. No other use anywhere in the game. Stealth on the other hand was an accessory mechanic that "only" had use in the Justice system, to steal the hoard of items that exist only to be stolen or to avoid guards, and well, it's not like we have, say, two DLC that revolve around stealth, right ?

Sure, it never required to be a Bosmer to be stealthy, but it helped. It made sense. They are the stealthiest fellows around and have been in every game, it's mentionend in many in-game books in the Elder Scroll series, their most well-known epic is called "the 1000 benefits of hiding", they have a "rite of theft"... So obviously they should become as adept at stealth as any Orc or Nord. Makes complete sense.

Or maybe not at all. Yeah, I'd say not at all.

burglar

Uryel wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

I agree. Dunmer proclivity towards Destruction Magic (I.E. Fire Damage) has been a defining trait throughout the ES series. As with the issue surrounding Bosmer Stealth, this change seems opposed to the stated goals of the Racial Update with regards to Lore, diversity, racial identity and playing as one will. Players have been building Dunmer characters with the Fire Damage Passive in mind for years, why the sudden and abrupt change?

...
And don't get me started on Bosmers and the loss of stealth. The stealth detection bonus that replaces the stealth bonus has no use whatsoever in PvE and only a marginal use in PvP.
...

Bosmer's lorewise are hunters, they don't eat vegetables or plants at all. It's all meat, they're hunters in the truest sense, meaning they don't hide as much as they track things down. So, it actually fits the lore perfectly... because there is no hiding from the new bosmer that is within 3m of you(even if you're cloaked[it's like a passive 3m detection potion is always active]), giving them the strategic advantage in combat. You say that this isn't useful in PvE, maybe so, but they could add things to the game that make this useful, doubtful but it's possible. Not to mention, that the dodge roll speed bonus more than makes up for it and the stam recovery change easily drives it home if not making you wonder if bosmer are too powerful now. But, you're right that we lost our bonus to stealth damage, and our decreased detection radius, so we deserve some extra love.

Also, it's not really possible to perfectly adapt the races to the lore when balancing needs to be considered, as staying true to the lore for bosmer would require allowing them to charm animals and force them to eat the corpse of everything they killed.

Savos_Saren

Dracane wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

We focused mainly on improving the identity of each race with the adjustments

How about the forced "identity" of Dunmer as apparently a "hybrid" race, in a game where "hybrid" gameplay is completely unviable due to the game design? Or the "identity" of being a clear cut magic oriented race for five(!) years in ESO, suddenly to get turned into a "hybrid" overnight?

You gonna adress that too?

Dunmer is still a top pick for Magicka. So I don't see any problem here. And instead of "hybrid" which indicates you can do both but are not excelling at either I'd use "versatile" but that's exactly what Dunmer and Khajiit will be after the update - the two races that are viable and competitive in both Magicka and Stamina.

Being number 4, behind Altmer, Breton and Khajiit, as all the data shows, is certainly not a "top pick". So maybe if you don't see the problem, you should do the math.

Only if you can't sustain. Sustain really isn't that terrible anymore. Ever since the off balance changes, I rarely got into trouble even with a full damage setup. More sustain is convenient, but only that.

Dunmer has the 2nd highest damage potential for magicka of all races. That is a great position to be in, considering the difference between most races is so small now. It is up to you as a player to use this potential.

The issue with Dunmer is sustain, right? Altmer already have decent sustain and the exact same amount of spell damage- so, they can build toward more spell damage. Dunmer will have to increase their sustain in order to keep up with boss/pvp fights... instead of adding more spell damage. Thus- their spell damage potential won't reach that of the Altmer.

There's no reason to play a Dunmer (even on an mDK) if you can have better sustain and spell damage potential with an Altmer.

Savos_Saren

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Greetings again everyone! Just wanted to give a quick update that we're planning on making some adjustments to the racial passives in the coming weeks on the PTS based on much of your feedback. We focused mainly on improving the identity of each race with the adjustments by either improving on key areas such as a boost to Resourceful for Argonians, or enhancing the accessibility some of the bonuses provide, such as a small redesign to Red Diamond for Imperials. Aside from numerical tweaks, new small bonuses, and slight redesigns, we have a change to the calculation for how Champion Points increase your Health, Magicka, and Stamina to make it easier to follow and impact more things that you'd expect.

Thank you again everyone for the feedback, we'll have more to share on the delivery of racial changes for Update 21 when we're ready, so keep an eye out on that Dev Tracker, and we can't wait for you all to get your hands on some of the changes!

@ZOS_Gilliam

Please take into consideration that, in order for a Dunmer to achieve "hybrid" status, they'll have to invest CP between Spell/Weapon penetration AND they'll have to split CP between Elemental Expert and Mighty. There's not way that a "hybrid" can reach the spell/weapon damage potential of any "pure" builds (ie: Altmer Sorc or Redguard StamPlar)

Perhaps a small amount of passive weapon/spell penetration could be added to assist?

Dracane

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

We focused mainly on improving the identity of each race with the adjustments

How about the forced "identity" of Dunmer as apparently a "hybrid" race, in a game where "hybrid" gameplay is completely unviable due to the game design? Or the "identity" of being a clear cut magic oriented race for five(!) years in ESO, suddenly to get turned into a "hybrid" overnight?

You gonna adress that too?

Dunmer is still a top pick for Magicka. So I don't see any problem here. And instead of "hybrid" which indicates you can do both but are not excelling at either I'd use "versatile" but that's exactly what Dunmer and Khajiit will be after the update - the two races that are viable and competitive in both Magicka and Stamina.

Being number 4, behind Altmer, Breton and Khajiit, as all the data shows, is certainly not a "top pick". So maybe if you don't see the problem, you should do the math.

Only if you can't sustain. Sustain really isn't that terrible anymore. Ever since the off balance changes, I rarely got into trouble even with a full damage setup. More sustain is convenient, but only that.

Dunmer has the 2nd highest damage potential for magicka of all races. That is a great position to be in, considering the difference between most races is so small now. It is up to you as a player to use this potential.

The issue with Dunmer is sustain, right? Altmer already have decent sustain and the exact same amount of spell damage- so, they can build toward more spell damage. Dunmer will have to increase their sustain in order to keep up with boss/pvp fights... instead of adding more spell damage. Thus- their spell damage potential won't reach that of the Altmer.

There's no reason to play a Dunmer (even on an mDK) if you can have better sustain and spell damage potential with an Altmer.

Good. Because Dunmer shouldn't be the best pure magicka race. They have enough other benefits.

CLiPPx

CleymenZero wrote: »

CLiPPx wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

CLiPPx wrote: »

1 Race Change Token

What a slap in the face to all of your customers. With a HUGE change to racial passives, and ultimately changing the way the game is played, you should definitely reconsider your measly single race change token to match the number of characters an account has.

Or...

Like someone else previously stated: Give us a time period of unlimited, free race changes.

Been a customer since '14 and this is the first time I've been disappointed with ESO.

Or roll with the change and challenge yourself in making an off-meta build with the races you have been given that replaces the meta?

3rd option is easier, you explore the content without looking like a tool-bag or spending $400 dollars for no reason lol.

Ehem...did I ask for your opinion? My comment was obviously not for you, yet you felt compelled to give me your two cents anyway. Such a bag of tools YOU are.

"Roll with the change"...I take it you're a "Yes Man" and are either oblivious to--or accept--when you're being taken advantage of and don't fight back.

Anyway...when I created new characters, I created them based on their racial passives. Many hours, years even, were spent leveling and grinding to get where I'm at today. Now that the devs are doing an overhaul on racial passives, maybe...just maybe myself and 96% of other ESO players want to respec or race change due to the overhaul, which was out of our control. It only makes sense to offer a race change token for each of your characters to maintain/bolster customer trust and respect. It's not just about meta/off-meta or whatever.

ZOS: Haaayyy friend! 😏

Me: Sup

ZOS: Listen, I've got something to tell you and I'm not sure how you're gonna feel about it...😅

Me: Uh oh, go on...🤨🤔

ZOS: I know you've invested ~$600 in sub fees on and off over the past few years and spent 60+ days in-game time across all of your characters, but we're gonna go ahead and change all of your character's passives. So now, what used to work, won't anymore 😉. BAAAALLAAAANCE

Me: Ok, cool. I have no problem with that, but...you're going to let me race change for free since you're changing all of the passives, right?🤔

ZOS: Oh, no! Only gonna give you one race change token and you're going to have to pay for the rest of your characters if you want them changed 🤪

Me: Uhhh, excuse me? That's not a good look ZOSsy-poo. If all my characters that I've spent hundreds of hours on, which I still enjoy currently, won't yield the results I'm looking for due to your change, I'm going to have to race change them all!🤯

ZOS: Duh. 🤑

Me: You're seriously only giving us one free token?! You're expecting us to pay $30/toon because YOU decided to change everything. But that's out of my control and unwarranted.😠🤢

ZOS: Deal with it sucker. I know plenty of players that will pay!🤫🤑🤑

Me: I hate you right now.😑 (a love-hate feeling more or less)


Heck, I'd be ok with four tokens, but one?! Serious slap in the face.

Not enough of us right now complaining. And if we fought and got our tokens, everyone that told us to shut up would be so happy. I don't get them.

If you don't want the race-change token, don't use em. I need them and it is so obvious to anyone, for fairness' sake, that them turning the racial passives up and down should make them give us free race-change token. So /$%/$"? stupid!

Also, to those who say dumb things like "adapt to having non-meta race and gitgud". It is the single most stupid thing one can read.

Nefas did an interview with the leaders of the top-scoring guilds in the game. Here's what they have to say about the Meta and people not playing meta:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjjfFN7b8VE&t=644s

If you still don't understand why I'm upset with them not compensating for their changes, you simply don't understand the matter and your inability to understand prevents the conversation from going forward.

I love the changes, don't think I have to pay to adapt. If you could grind race-change tokens, I would. Even then, if you still want to make money, do a sale for 10 for 5k crowns. That's 50$ man give me a break!

I know, right. More of us need to speak up about this. It is totally unfair to only give us one free token.

I'm cool with the passive overhaul, and like you said, I don't think it's right that we should pay extra money to change our races to re-align with what we want.

And you're right, most of us need them! Maybe if I was a player who has only been playing for a month or two it wouldn't affect me as hard, but we're talking years of play. If you have no use for them, then save them for when you do (or don't use them at all!). But ZOS needs to do what's right and not come off as just trying to make a quick buck.

Savos_Saren

Dracane wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

We focused mainly on improving the identity of each race with the adjustments

How about the forced "identity" of Dunmer as apparently a "hybrid" race, in a game where "hybrid" gameplay is completely unviable due to the game design? Or the "identity" of being a clear cut magic oriented race for five(!) years in ESO, suddenly to get turned into a "hybrid" overnight?

You gonna adress that too?

Dunmer is still a top pick for Magicka. So I don't see any problem here. And instead of "hybrid" which indicates you can do both but are not excelling at either I'd use "versatile" but that's exactly what Dunmer and Khajiit will be after the update - the two races that are viable and competitive in both Magicka and Stamina.

Being number 4, behind Altmer, Breton and Khajiit, as all the data shows, is certainly not a "top pick". So maybe if you don't see the problem, you should do the math.

Only if you can't sustain. Sustain really isn't that terrible anymore. Ever since the off balance changes, I rarely got into trouble even with a full damage setup. More sustain is convenient, but only that.

Dunmer has the 2nd highest damage potential for magicka of all races. That is a great position to be in, considering the difference between most races is so small now. It is up to you as a player to use this potential.

The issue with Dunmer is sustain, right? Altmer already have decent sustain and the exact same amount of spell damage- so, they can build toward more spell damage. Dunmer will have to increase their sustain in order to keep up with boss/pvp fights... instead of adding more spell damage. Thus- their spell damage potential won't reach that of the Altmer.

There's no reason to play a Dunmer (even on an mDK) if you can have better sustain and spell damage potential with an Altmer.

Good. Because Dunmer shouldn't be the best pure magicka race. They have enough other benefits.

I can also see that your character is an Altmer… so no wonder why you're so hell bent at ensuring other races don't match the damage potential.

Dracane

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

We focused mainly on improving the identity of each race with the adjustments

How about the forced "identity" of Dunmer as apparently a "hybrid" race, in a game where "hybrid" gameplay is completely unviable due to the game design? Or the "identity" of being a clear cut magic oriented race for five(!) years in ESO, suddenly to get turned into a "hybrid" overnight?

You gonna adress that too?

Dunmer is still a top pick for Magicka. So I don't see any problem here. And instead of "hybrid" which indicates you can do both but are not excelling at either I'd use "versatile" but that's exactly what Dunmer and Khajiit will be after the update - the two races that are viable and competitive in both Magicka and Stamina.

Being number 4, behind Altmer, Breton and Khajiit, as all the data shows, is certainly not a "top pick". So maybe if you don't see the problem, you should do the math.

Only if you can't sustain. Sustain really isn't that terrible anymore. Ever since the off balance changes, I rarely got into trouble even with a full damage setup. More sustain is convenient, but only that.

Dunmer has the 2nd highest damage potential for magicka of all races. That is a great position to be in, considering the difference between most races is so small now. It is up to you as a player to use this potential.

The issue with Dunmer is sustain, right? Altmer already have decent sustain and the exact same amount of spell damage- so, they can build toward more spell damage. Dunmer will have to increase their sustain in order to keep up with boss/pvp fights... instead of adding more spell damage. Thus- their spell damage potential won't reach that of the Altmer.

There's no reason to play a Dunmer (even on an mDK) if you can have better sustain and spell damage potential with an Altmer.

Good. Because Dunmer shouldn't be the best pure magicka race. They have enough other benefits.

I can also see that your character is an Altmer… so no wonder why you're so hell bent at ensuring other races don't match the damage potential.

That is true. So bascially the same what you are trying to achieve. The difference is between just and unjust.

max_only

ProbablePaul wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

I agree. Dunmer proclivity towards Destruction Magic (I.E. Fire Damage) has been a defining trait throughout the ES series. As with the issue surrounding Bosmer Stealth, this change seems opposed to the stated goals of the Racial Update with regards to Lore, diversity, racial identity and playing as one will. Players have been building Dunmer characters with the Fire Damage Passive in mind for years, why the sudden and abrupt change?

...
And don't get me started on Bosmers and the loss of stealth. The stealth detection bonus that replaces the stealth bonus has no use whatsoever in PvE and only a marginal use in PvP.
...

Bosmer's lorewise are hunters, they don't eat vegetables or plants at all. It's all meat, they're hunters in the truest sense, meaning they don't hide as much as they track things down. So, it actually fits the lore perfectly... because there is no hiding from the new bosmer that is within 3m of you(even if you're cloaked[it's like a passive 3m detection potion is always active]), giving them the strategic advantage in combat. You say that this isn't useful in PvE, maybe so, but they could add things to the game that make this useful, doubtful but it's possible. Not to mention, that the dodge roll speed bonus more than makes up for it and the stam recovery change easily drives it home if not making you wonder if bosmer are too powerful now. But, you're right that we lost our bonus to stealth damage, and our decreased detection radius, so we deserve some extra love.

Also, it's not really possible to perfectly adapt the races to the lore when balancing needs to be considered, as staying true to the lore for bosmer would require allowing them to charm animals and force them to eat the corpse of everything they killed.

Where do you use stealth detection in pve? Currently in the game they are trying to sell today? Not some nebulous “maybe” future. When do you use stealth detect in pve?

“”You say that this isn't useful in PvE, maybe so,“”

It’s not just me who said it, the devs themselves said it in post 1. I can give you a lot of examples where one uses stealth radius reduction. The fact that they are increasing it on Khajiit just bolsters my point.

The roll dodge does not more than make up for it.
1. Pvp is not the majority of the audience and this is a pvp change
2. They just took away speed from all aspects of the game, do you think this stacking speed bonus will stay untouched? It won’t.
3. They claim they don’t want to punish us for choosing a magic class with a non magic race, this goal has not been achieved with Bosmer changes.
4. From game 1 Bosmer have been sneaky. More so than Khajiit. Khajiit have been agile and lucky from game 1. Also cats have an actual, factual, natural Hunter’s Eye. There is no lore excuse. Staying true to the lore would require them to keep the stealth passive, Bosmer are not as noticeable as Nords. Full stop.

I appreciate your attempt to smooth things over but in this instance, there is actually a correct side.

Cundu_Ertur

ProbablePaul wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

I agree. Dunmer proclivity towards Destruction Magic (I.E. Fire Damage) has been a defining trait throughout the ES series. As with the issue surrounding Bosmer Stealth, this change seems opposed to the stated goals of the Racial Update with regards to Lore, diversity, racial identity and playing as one will. Players have been building Dunmer characters with the Fire Damage Passive in mind for years, why the sudden and abrupt change?

...
And don't get me started on Bosmers and the loss of stealth. The stealth detection bonus that replaces the stealth bonus has no use whatsoever in PvE and only a marginal use in PvP.
...

Bosmer's lorewise are hunters, they don't eat vegetables or plants at all. It's all meat, they're hunters in the truest sense, meaning they don't hide as much as they track things down. So, it actually fits the lore perfectly... because there is no hiding from the new bosmer that is within 3m of you(even if you're cloaked[it's like a passive 3m detection potion is always active]), giving them the strategic advantage in combat. You say that this isn't useful in PvE, maybe so, but they could add things to the game that make this useful, doubtful but it's possible. Not to mention, that the dodge roll speed bonus more than makes up for it and the stam recovery change easily drives it home if not making you wonder if bosmer are too powerful now. But, you're right that we lost our bonus to stealth damage, and our decreased detection radius, so we deserve some extra love.

Also, it's not really possible to perfectly adapt the races to the lore when balancing needs to be considered, as staying true to the lore for bosmer would require allowing them to charm animals and force them to eat the corpse of everything they killed.

How does the rite of theft factor into that? Where is the Meh Ayleidion? I mean, Bosmers have only had stealth in their lore and as a skill bonus in Morrowind (where they had the biggest boost), Oblivion (where they had the biggest boost), and Skyrim (where the Khajiit got the biggest boost since their previous skill of greatest expertise had disappeared); not to mention for the past however many years ESO has been around. How unreasonable that Bosmer should want their stealth back (this is sarcasm, btw).

Also, every race has hunters. There is no vegan race in Tamriel. What makes Bosmeri hunters better IS THEIR STEALTH.

Seraphayel

Savos_Saren wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Greetings again everyone! Just wanted to give a quick update that we're planning on making some adjustments to the racial passives in the coming weeks on the PTS based on much of your feedback. We focused mainly on improving the identity of each race with the adjustments by either improving on key areas such as a boost to Resourceful for Argonians, or enhancing the accessibility some of the bonuses provide, such as a small redesign to Red Diamond for Imperials. Aside from numerical tweaks, new small bonuses, and slight redesigns, we have a change to the calculation for how Champion Points increase your Health, Magicka, and Stamina to make it easier to follow and impact more things that you'd expect.

Thank you again everyone for the feedback, we'll have more to share on the delivery of racial changes for Update 21 when we're ready, so keep an eye out on that Dev Tracker, and we can't wait for you all to get your hands on some of the changes!

@ZOS_Gilliam

Please take into consideration that, in order for a Dunmer to achieve "hybrid" status, they'll have to invest CP between Spell/Weapon penetration AND they'll have to split CP between Elemental Expert and Mighty. There's not way that a "hybrid" can reach the spell/weapon damage potential of any "pure" builds (ie: Altmer Sorc or Redguard StamPlar)

Perhaps a small amount of passive weapon/spell penetration could be added to assist?

Again, "hybrid" is the wrong term as it indicates that you can do all of the stuff but you're excelling at none of it - this is not the case with Dunmer. Replace "hybrid" with "versatile" and you have exactly what Dunmers will be after the changes (this is not only gameplay friendly, it fits the lore too). Great at both, Magicka and Stamina. For some builds and classes they are still the top pick out of all races with the difference that they can be great Stamina DPS now on top of being great Magicka DPS. Next to Khajiit Dunmer is the only race that can do this after the changes.

It's funny that all of the Dunmer players are complaining although they're benefitting the most from the racial adjustments. Dunmer racials don't need more benefits, they're already very strong due to their versatile capabilities.

Moonsorrow

amir412 wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Greetings again everyone! Just wanted to give a quick update that we're planning on making some adjustments to the racial passives in the coming weeks on the PTS based on much of your feedback. We focused mainly on improving the identity of each race with the adjustments by either improving on key areas such as a boost to Resourceful for Argonians, or enhancing the accessibility some of the bonuses provide, such as a small redesign to Red Diamond for Imperials. Aside from numerical tweaks, new small bonuses, and slight redesigns, we have a change to the calculation for how Champion Points increase your Health, Magicka, and Stamina to make it easier to follow and impact more things that you'd expect.

Thank you again everyone for the feedback, we'll have more to share on the delivery of racial changes for Update 21 when we're ready, so keep an eye out on that Dev Tracker, and we can't wait for you all to get your hands on some of the changes!

Im confused, this is a tease for upcoming nerf to CP system? does it mean cp will affect more or less stats?

Waiting for next weeks PTS, with both hopeful and scared feelings.. Before these changes i was hopeful they would go the stam/mag morph version way of racials or total freedom of choosing them on top the basic flavor passive, now i am scared if there will just be even more nerfs.

Trying my best to stay hopeful. Its been hard lately.

Moonsorrow

ProbablePaul wrote: »

Can you please explain why you're against having flat values, and would rather have percentages?

You might be losing out on that single 'big bonus' from the racial with these changes, but you are gaining a higher base value, which is used when calculating the additive bonuses applied with percentages. In the long run, this will make the game more balanced, and easier to make changes that make sense. These changes sort of prevent races from making balancing the game too difficult, and they're not really much of a nerf.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I understand these changes to work:

You might be giving up 1k health on at the min/max end of the spectrum, but you will reach those higher values more easily, meaning you can apply stats elsewhere once you reach your target levels of health. If you want to have a meme build where you just have the most health as possible, yeah, these changes might hinder that a little bit.

@ProbablePaul

So a high hp tank at pvp is "meme build"? and your calculations were not right, when right now on live can go for 70k hp Blazeplar for pvp if wants.

So no, it is NOT 1k health. Do the math again on a 70k hp build.

What people want to save are their OPTIONS on builds, extremes. To you they might be "meme builds", but to others they are FUN builds, choices, freedom.

Maybe not forget the build options we still have, before nerfs truly makes everyone mediocre. % bonuses on extreme amounts give bigger value if wanna build using it for the character, be it for fun or for group (pvp support) efficiency.

Why do people forget that and give bad math examples from pve meta point of view?

Elvira

Personally I think the whole idea of racial passives is stupid and source of unnecessary grieving.

Because no matter what you make, it forces min-maxing people play for a race they don't really like, if some other race has more appealing traits to their playstyle/theories. A much better solution would be simply to introduce "birth-signs" or so, which would allow to assign any "racial bonus-set" to any race at the moment of character's creation. We play "heroes", not common average Joes/Saras, and there is no reason while there couldn't be an exceptionally gifted in some area individual, even if coming from a race normally not suited for that skill.

Oh and any rather drastic "initial paradigm" change just for the change itself is evil. I've built my Dunmer sorceress around fire. For example I have Valkyn Skoria + BSW + Fire Staff synergy. With the fire-specific advantage gone I can now pretty much regear myself as I went this route mainly because of Dunmer's primary racial strength.