Meow *complainers about heavy nerfs have no understanding of this game*

Buff dodge.

lol

Qbiken wrote: »

ThePainGuy wrote: »

I think heavy armor passives are fine as they are right now. It really is some of the sets (seventh and fury) that provides problems (based on who you talk to).

I’ve mentioned this in another thread. More ppl should be promoting giving medium armor a combat useful passive over the current improved sneak. Heavy armor and light armor passive skill lines have 5 passives that provide some utility in combat for both PvE and PvP. While medium armor has 4. This can be an opportunity to give medium something that evens the playing field between medium armor and heavy armor.

As a community we should be advocating more for buffs rather than nerfs because we know from history in this MMO that nerfs tend to be drastic and ruin the class, race, or armor skill line that was targeted.

Sure, buff medium armor so that medium stamblade can me even more cheese than it already is...

I don’t have a Nightblade class and it is fustrating to play against them. But medium armor has little to do with why stam blade is “cheese” in your words. The stam blade arsenal from its class makes it formidable.

And I’m not asking for anything crazy. Maybe provide a small increase to max stam on the improved sneak passive so that it benefits all classes in battle for PvE and PvP.

Perhaps a rock paper scissor system where light > heavy > medium > light

Most people are wearing heavy so they can survive for more than 2 seconds. If time to kill was to be longer, sustain would become more important and heavy less.

TTK is too low for people wearing light/medium, especially in BGs. The obvious choice is to go with heavy at that point, not just for the mitigation/passives, but for the sets that are clearly better choices in a lot of situations. The problem is medium armor passives (and sets) just aren't that good and giving them up isn't really that big of a deal.

Heavy armor isn't op... Fury and 7th are the main culprits here.

Heavy armor is balanced right now with medium and light. Medium and light do more damage and heavy takes more damage. You have to put together a good burst to kill any good player in any armor set. Your suggestion is just going to kill heavy armor and the good players will still survive and kill you. Then what are you going to blame it on. My suggestion for now is get yourself a set of heavy armor.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ThePainGuy wrote: »

at least give medium armor 5 combat passives like the other armor skill lines.

The "amount" of combat passives is almost equal, even tho medium got 1 combat relevant stat passive less than light. But to say they miss out on a whole passive (passives usually do more than just 1 thing), is a bit misleading.

Light gives 7 boni:
Snare reduction, sprint cost decrease, mag regen, mag cost decrease, spell resistance, spell crit chance, spell penetration

Medium gives 6 combat boni, 2 sneak boni:
Sprint speed, dodge cost decrease, stam regen, stam cost decrease, weapon crit chance, weapon damage
sneak cost, detection area decrease

Heavy depends on how you count them, between 6 and 9:
both resistance, Constitution resource return, Heavy attack resource return, health regen, max health, healing recieved

So they are pretty close. When you value Heavy armor keep in mind that they changed racial health regen away from %, making that (e.g. in combo with TK) a tad weaker and that they will take a look at sets like 7th, earthgore etc.

Vapirko wrote: »

I think a heavier brawler playstyle should be possible, but between snares, proc sets and damage sets, Major defile, troll king, earthgore, heavy armor users can far too easily just turtle up and still dish out crazy damage. And ZOS is introducing more really strong snare and proc setd with Wrathstone. So idk what else to say. Heavy should have a flat out damage reduction for 5 or more pieces. If you want damage you go medium or light end of story. The thing is sets like fury and ravager, 7th get a bad rap because of heavy but these sets are great medium sets too and nerfing them will NOT in any way solve the heavy armor meta issue. Making them medium is also not really a solution because we typically rely on running that heavy chest piece to survive. So the only thing that makes sense is to make heavy armor have a pretty sizable damage penalty for 5 or more pieces. If you want to play tank or support you can go heavy, otherwise no.

Will you also add a resistance debuff to medium and light armors? Heavy has already less crit and 15% less weapon dmg.
Haven't I read somewhere that snares are looked at in a coming update or was that bollocks?
They also said they will look at Earthgore, 7th etc.

Sorry, but there is nothing a little misleading about what i said. Light armor and heavy armor have 5 combat useful passives and medium has 4 (improved sneak is not useful in combat in PVE or PVP). Thats not debatable, but fact. But lets look at what each passive provides. Light armor first two passives give 2 benefits each and the last 3 passives provide 1 benefit each (7 benefits total). Heavy armor first two passives provide 2 benefits each, and last 3 passives provide 1 benefit each (7 benefits total). Medium armor (first two passives give 3 total benefits, improved sneak gives 0, last two passives give 3 total benefits) gets 6 bonuses from their respective combat passives. So I will repeat, medium armor should have 5 combat useful passives similar to the other skill lines (adding extra stamina (500-1000) to improved sneak would open that passive up to wide range of playstyles in PVE and PVP).

You say my statements are misleading and then in the same post prove my point by saying the different armor passives are almost equal. If we want to discuss something that is a bit misleading, here is something: --> What is misleading is the notion among some in the community that heavy armor overall is overpowered/overperforming (deserving of a nerf), when in fact it is select sets in the heavy armor category that are really good (fury, seventh, etc...).

ThePainGuy wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ThePainGuy wrote: »

at least give medium armor 5 combat passives like the other armor skill lines.

The "amount" of combat passives is almost equal, even tho medium got 1 combat relevant stat passive less than light. But to say they miss out on a whole passive (passives usually do more than just 1 thing), is a bit misleading.

Light gives 7 boni:
Snare reduction, sprint cost decrease, mag regen, mag cost decrease, spell resistance, spell crit chance, spell penetration

Medium gives 6 combat boni, 2 sneak boni:
Sprint speed, dodge cost decrease, stam regen, stam cost decrease, weapon crit chance, weapon damage
sneak cost, detection area decrease

Heavy depends on how you count them, between 6 and 9:
both resistance, Constitution resource return, Heavy attack resource return, health regen, max health, healing recieved

So they are pretty close. When you value Heavy armor keep in mind that they changed racial health regen away from %, making that (e.g. in combo with TK) a tad weaker and that they will take a look at sets like 7th, earthgore etc.

Vapirko wrote: »

I think a heavier brawler playstyle should be possible, but between snares, proc sets and damage sets, Major defile, troll king, earthgore, heavy armor users can far too easily just turtle up and still dish out crazy damage. And ZOS is introducing more really strong snare and proc setd with Wrathstone. So idk what else to say. Heavy should have a flat out damage reduction for 5 or more pieces. If you want damage you go medium or light end of story. The thing is sets like fury and ravager, 7th get a bad rap because of heavy but these sets are great medium sets too and nerfing them will NOT in any way solve the heavy armor meta issue. Making them medium is also not really a solution because we typically rely on running that heavy chest piece to survive. So the only thing that makes sense is to make heavy armor have a pretty sizable damage penalty for 5 or more pieces. If you want to play tank or support you can go heavy, otherwise no.

Will you also add a resistance debuff to medium and light armors? Heavy has already less crit and 15% less weapon dmg.
Haven't I read somewhere that snares are looked at in a coming update or was that bollocks?
They also said they will look at Earthgore, 7th etc.

Sorry, but there is nothing a little misleading about what i said. Light armor and heavy armor have 5 combat useful passives and medium has 4 (improved sneak is not useful in combat in PVE or PVP). Thats not debatable, but fact. But lets look at what each passive provides. Light armor first two passives give 2 benefits each and the last 3 passives provide 1 benefit each (7 benefits total). Heavy armor first two passives provide 2 benefits each, and last 3 passives provide 1 benefit each (7 benefits total). Medium armor (first two passives give 3 total benefits, improved sneak gives 0, last two passives give 3 total benefits) gets 6 bonuses from their respective combat passives. So I will repeat, medium armor should have 5 combat useful passives similar to the other skill lines (adding extra stamina (500-1000) to improved sneak would open that passive up to wide range of playstyles in PVE and PVP).

You say my statements are misleading and then in the same post prove my point by saying the different armor passives are almost equal. If we want to discuss something that is a bit misleading, here is something: --> What is misleading is the notion among some in the community that heavy armor overall is overpowered/overperforming (deserving of a nerf), when in fact it is select sets in the heavy armor category that are really good (fury, seventh, etc...).

I totally agree on your Last Paragraph. But again, it's completely indifferent if the boni are spread over 4, 5 or even just over 3 passives. What they get out of medium as a whole is almost equal. Equal enough to the point, that a buff isnt the way to go but rather a rework of the general pain points. Some you already mentioned, like certain sets. Snares are another. After that we can speak about flat buffs.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ThePainGuy wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ThePainGuy wrote: »

at least give medium armor 5 combat passives like the other armor skill lines.

The "amount" of combat passives is almost equal, even tho medium got 1 combat relevant stat passive less than light. But to say they miss out on a whole passive (passives usually do more than just 1 thing), is a bit misleading.

Light gives 7 boni:
Snare reduction, sprint cost decrease, mag regen, mag cost decrease, spell resistance, spell crit chance, spell penetration

Medium gives 6 combat boni, 2 sneak boni:
Sprint speed, dodge cost decrease, stam regen, stam cost decrease, weapon crit chance, weapon damage
sneak cost, detection area decrease

Heavy depends on how you count them, between 6 and 9:
both resistance, Constitution resource return, Heavy attack resource return, health regen, max health, healing recieved

So they are pretty close. When you value Heavy armor keep in mind that they changed racial health regen away from %, making that (e.g. in combo with TK) a tad weaker and that they will take a look at sets like 7th, earthgore etc.

Vapirko wrote: »

I think a heavier brawler playstyle should be possible, but between snares, proc sets and damage sets, Major defile, troll king, earthgore, heavy armor users can far too easily just turtle up and still dish out crazy damage. And ZOS is introducing more really strong snare and proc setd with Wrathstone. So idk what else to say. Heavy should have a flat out damage reduction for 5 or more pieces. If you want damage you go medium or light end of story. The thing is sets like fury and ravager, 7th get a bad rap because of heavy but these sets are great medium sets too and nerfing them will NOT in any way solve the heavy armor meta issue. Making them medium is also not really a solution because we typically rely on running that heavy chest piece to survive. So the only thing that makes sense is to make heavy armor have a pretty sizable damage penalty for 5 or more pieces. If you want to play tank or support you can go heavy, otherwise no.

Will you also add a resistance debuff to medium and light armors? Heavy has already less crit and 15% less weapon dmg.
Haven't I read somewhere that snares are looked at in a coming update or was that bollocks?
They also said they will look at Earthgore, 7th etc.

Sorry, but there is nothing a little misleading about what i said. Light armor and heavy armor have 5 combat useful passives and medium has 4 (improved sneak is not useful in combat in PVE or PVP). Thats not debatable, but fact. But lets look at what each passive provides. Light armor first two passives give 2 benefits each and the last 3 passives provide 1 benefit each (7 benefits total). Heavy armor first two passives provide 2 benefits each, and last 3 passives provide 1 benefit each (7 benefits total). Medium armor (first two passives give 3 total benefits, improved sneak gives 0, last two passives give 3 total benefits) gets 6 bonuses from their respective combat passives. So I will repeat, medium armor should have 5 combat useful passives similar to the other skill lines (adding extra stamina (500-1000) to improved sneak would open that passive up to wide range of playstyles in PVE and PVP).

You say my statements are misleading and then in the same post prove my point by saying the different armor passives are almost equal. If we want to discuss something that is a bit misleading, here is something: --> What is misleading is the notion among some in the community that heavy armor overall is overpowered/overperforming (deserving of a nerf), when in fact it is select sets in the heavy armor category that are really good (fury, seventh, etc...).

I totally agree on your Last Paragraph. But again, it's completely indifferent if the boni are spread over 4, 5 or even just over 3 passives. What they get out of medium as a whole is almost equal. Equal enough to the point, that a buff isnt the way to go but rather a rework of the general pain points. Some you already mentioned, like certain sets. Snares are another. After that we can speak about flat buffs.

I disagreed with you about the claim that my points were misleading because objectively medium armor offers the least number of combat useful passives (or benefits, if you want to break down what each passive offers). Your claim is that looking at the armor skill lines as a whole they are almost equal. Now I am not arguing against your point. But your point is subjective, not objectively true. My point about numerically medium having less passives is fact. There are many people in the community looking at what each armor skill line offers as a whole and they don't think they are equal, or even close to that. Zos last patch (murkmire) even claimed they wanted to incentivize people picking light and medium armor over heavy. However, they did not add additional benefits to medium armor, they increased the amount increase to weapon damage and changed how major evasion (an active skill) works. Therefore, how medium armor as a whole looks is still subjectively up in the air, many people still think it underperforms.

I am advocating for something that zos claims to be doing right now. Removing niche things like (stealth/sneak) away from certain races or armors and opening it up to wider player base. I am advocating for supplementing improved sneak to offer something that is useful in combat to all players in medium armor in PVE or PVP (not just players involved in the justice system or gankers). Whether someone thinks that as a whole all armor skill lines are equal is completely left up to interpretation. People still think light armor with shieldstacking is overperforming, some think heavy armor ability to turtle and deal high damage is overperforming, some think medium armor roll dodging around cyrodil is overperforming. Numerically the armor skill lines don't offer equal amount of benefits/passives in combat. Im just bringing that to light.