Time To Fix Heavy Armor Meta

IZZEFlameLash

Mayrael wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Ranger209 wrote: »

I think nerfing mobility is exactly the way to go. If you are wearing heavy you should be choosing a stand your ground play style, not a circle jerk a tree at the speed of light and building ulti while wearing heavy play style. Regular speed is the same for everyone so they will have no lower floor than anyone else. Their ceiling for mobility, though, should very much be lower than medium or light. They aren't being made to run slower at the base level, they just wouldn't be able to reach the same top end speeds.

Their damage is already less than medium and light by virtue of 12% soon to be 15% weapon damage and 4884 penetration from light. I wouldn't mind seeing medium get a 2442 pen buff and light get a 7.5% spell dmg buff to widen the damage gap though and create a little more thought between the armor types.

Except, stand your ground is not really possible in this game. 1v1, yes but open world? No.

Um it is but you have to build for it. You would like to be able to soak damage from multiple enemies wearing light or medium while also being able to kill them? Because heavy vs heavy should be pretty equal.

Right now there is no reason to not use heavy armored when you play stamina, literally no reason.

As a magicka there is less reason to go heavy but not because light is much better then medium. It's because magicka have a lot worse heavy sets.

In the end both light and medium need some buffs or heavy (IMHO heavy damage buffing sets) need nerfs.

I agree with that stam has good HA sets. However HA itself is not a free pass to mitigation. Helps but doesn't help by large margin. For magicka, HA translates to bad sustain no matter how much you build for it. In general, magicka skills cost more and heavy attacks charge way too slow and often are dodged and leaves time to block at the end. However, stamina skills are cheaper and charges fast which translates to better sustain. So, stam in HA does not experience as much sustain trouble as magicka does.

Still, I do not think nerfing mobility is the way to go. HA users can be ripped to shreds very easily. It just takes 1 or 2 more abilities than MA. And frankly, I think since MA lost the dodge, the snare immunity time buff would make MA a really viable choice.

Bitmun

Meow *complainers about heavy nerfs have no understanding of this game*

Bitmun

Buff medium :P

lucky_dutch

Buff dodge.

Kadoin

Trancestor wrote: »

lucky_dutch wrote: »

This rhetoric that 1vX = PvP has to stop.

I would imagine that 1vXers represent less than 1% of the total PvP population.

That’s not to say that balance in that reason doesn’t matter but it’s also not the only thing that matters.

1vX is the main thing that PVP should be balanced around, simply because it's what takes the most skill and skill should be rewarded, groups and zergs that chase down solo players and small scalers shouldn't be rewarded.

"Skill"

Is that why nerfs always generate the most whining from supposed 1vXers?

Zordrage

lol

ThePainGuy

I think heavy armor passives are fine as they are right now. It really is some of the sets (seventh and fury) that provides problems (based on who you talk to).

I’ve mentioned this in another thread. More ppl should be promoting giving medium armor a combat useful passive over the current improved sneak. Heavy armor and light armor passive skill lines have 5 passives that provide some utility in combat for both PvE and PvP. While medium armor has 4. This can be an opportunity to give medium something that evens the playing field between medium armor and heavy armor.

As a community we should be advocating more for buffs rather than nerfs because we know from history in this MMO that nerfs tend to be drastic and ruin the class, race, or armor skill line that was targeted.

Qbiken

ThePainGuy wrote: »

I think heavy armor passives are fine as they are right now. It really is some of the sets (seventh and fury) that provides problems (based on who you talk to).

I’ve mentioned this in another thread. More ppl should be promoting giving medium armor a combat useful passive over the current improved sneak. Heavy armor and light armor passive skill lines have 5 passives that provide some utility in combat for both PvE and PvP. While medium armor has 4. This can be an opportunity to give medium something that evens the playing field between medium armor and heavy armor.

As a community we should be advocating more for buffs rather than nerfs because we know from history in this MMO that nerfs tend to be drastic and ruin the class, race, or armor skill line that was targeted.

Sure, buff medium armor so that medium stamblade can me even more cheese than it already is...

iCaliban

Just give mag a counter heavy armor, like bleeds are.

lucky_dutch wrote: »

Buff dodge.

No. Stamina is far too strong as it is. If anything, dodge roll needs to be less forgiving.

ThePainGuy

Qbiken wrote: »

ThePainGuy wrote: »

I think heavy armor passives are fine as they are right now. It really is some of the sets (seventh and fury) that provides problems (based on who you talk to).

I’ve mentioned this in another thread. More ppl should be promoting giving medium armor a combat useful passive over the current improved sneak. Heavy armor and light armor passive skill lines have 5 passives that provide some utility in combat for both PvE and PvP. While medium armor has 4. This can be an opportunity to give medium something that evens the playing field between medium armor and heavy armor.

As a community we should be advocating more for buffs rather than nerfs because we know from history in this MMO that nerfs tend to be drastic and ruin the class, race, or armor skill line that was targeted.

Sure, buff medium armor so that medium stamblade can me even more cheese than it already is...

I don’t have a Nightblade class and it is fustrating to play against them. But medium armor has little to do with why stam blade is “cheese” in your words. The stam blade arsenal from its class makes it formidable.

And I’m not asking for anything crazy. Maybe provide a small increase to max stam on the improved sneak passive so that it benefits all classes in battle for PvE and PvP.

Ragnarock41

Qbiken wrote: »

ThePainGuy wrote: »

I think heavy armor passives are fine as they are right now. It really is some of the sets (seventh and fury) that provides problems (based on who you talk to).

I’ve mentioned this in another thread. More ppl should be promoting giving medium armor a combat useful passive over the current improved sneak. Heavy armor and light armor passive skill lines have 5 passives that provide some utility in combat for both PvE and PvP. While medium armor has 4. This can be an opportunity to give medium something that evens the playing field between medium armor and heavy armor.

As a community we should be advocating more for buffs rather than nerfs because we know from history in this MMO that nerfs tend to be drastic and ruin the class, race, or armor skill line that was targeted.

Sure, buff medium armor so that medium stamblade can me even more cheese than it already is...

How about buff medium armor and nerf stamblade? I think its about time that medium armor stops being designed to fit a stamblade's needs.

LordTareq

Perhaps a rock paper scissor system where light > heavy > medium > light

Most people are wearing heavy so they can survive for more than 2 seconds. If time to kill was to be longer, sustain would become more important and heavy less.

ezio45

Qbiken wrote: »

ThePainGuy wrote: »

I think heavy armor passives are fine as they are right now. It really is some of the sets (seventh and fury) that provides problems (based on who you talk to).

I’ve mentioned this in another thread. More ppl should be promoting giving medium armor a combat useful passive over the current improved sneak. Heavy armor and light armor passive skill lines have 5 passives that provide some utility in combat for both PvE and PvP. While medium armor has 4. This can be an opportunity to give medium something that evens the playing field between medium armor and heavy armor.

As a community we should be advocating more for buffs rather than nerfs because we know from history in this MMO that nerfs tend to be drastic and ruin the class, race, or armor skill line that was targeted.

Sure, buff medium armor so that medium stamblade can me even more cheese than it already is...

Part of the reason stamina is strong is how much they benefit from heavy. Like yes medium armor can dish out a ton of damage but there squishy. It's the Stam in heavy that can still do huge damage and can take massive amounts of damage that's the problem

ecru

TTK is too low for people wearing light/medium, especially in BGs. The obvious choice is to go with heavy at that point, not just for the mitigation/passives, but for the sets that are clearly better choices in a lot of situations. The problem is medium armor passives (and sets) just aren't that good and giving them up isn't really that big of a deal.

ThePainGuy

ecru wrote: »

TTK is too low for people wearing light/medium, especially in BGs. The obvious choice is to go with heavy at that point, not just for the mitigation/passives, but for the sets that are clearly better choices in a lot of situations. The problem is medium armor passives (and sets) just aren't that good and giving them up isn't really that big of a deal.

Great points you’ve made. Light armor offers a great trade off between magic damage/sustain for the survivability of heavy. However some light armor shield stacking builds can be quite tanky while offering up some good damage. Medium doesn’t have that same ability, thus you see a lot of heavy armor and light armor in BGs.

Zos should definitely look at medium passives to see if we can improve it somewhat (at least give medium armor 5 combat passives like the other armor skill lines). Nothing overpowering. Zos started looking at sets this patch and changing up one of the less popular ones. Hopefully that continues moving forward.

Light armor looks ok for now. Grace passive is a little underwhelming because the move speed currently in pvp is terrible. Once Zos has a vision and acts to improve move speed in pvp, hopefully this passive will see improvement.

Qbiken

ezio45 wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

ThePainGuy wrote: »

I think heavy armor passives are fine as they are right now. It really is some of the sets (seventh and fury) that provides problems (based on who you talk to).

I’ve mentioned this in another thread. More ppl should be promoting giving medium armor a combat useful passive over the current improved sneak. Heavy armor and light armor passive skill lines have 5 passives that provide some utility in combat for both PvE and PvP. While medium armor has 4. This can be an opportunity to give medium something that evens the playing field between medium armor and heavy armor.

As a community we should be advocating more for buffs rather than nerfs because we know from history in this MMO that nerfs tend to be drastic and ruin the class, race, or armor skill line that was targeted.

Sure, buff medium armor so that medium stamblade can me even more cheese than it already is...

Part of the reason stamina is strong is how much they benefit from heavy. Like yes medium armor can dish out a ton of damage but there squishy. It's the Stam in heavy that can still do huge damage and can take massive amounts of damage that's the problem

I don´t have the exact numbers in my head but the difference between the damage mitigation of Light vs Medium vs Heavy isn´t immense (when only looking at the armor stats they give). You can easily run medium or light armor (which both offers more damage through their passives than heavy) and still achieve similar tankiness as with heavy.

Reason this is possible is called Protective trait. 3 Protective offers you 5532 physical- and spell resistance (at gold value). The "missing mitigation" from light or medium is easily compensated by running protective (which isn´t really a trade off if you ask me) so why would I run heavy when I can achieve more damage with medium and light, while still keeping the high resistances through protective traits?

Sure, nothing stops anyone from running protective while using heavy armor, but my point is that medium and light armor isn´t equal to being squishy.

Vapirko

A bit has changed since this thread was posted. We weren’t quite into the AOE snare/damage meta yet. Heavy armor needs to be prevented from doing a competitive amount of damage. I honestly hate to say this (I play 5 medium) because I think a heavier brawler playstyle should be possible, but between snares, proc sets and damage sets, Major defile, troll king, earthgore, heavy armor users can far too easily just turtle up and still dish out crazy damage. And ZOS is introducing more really strong snare and proc setd with Wrathstone. So idk what else to say. Heavy should have a flat out damage reduction for 5 or more pieces. If you want damage you go medium or light end of story. The thing is sets like fury and ravager, 7th get a bad rap because of heavy but these sets are great medium sets too and nerfing them will NOT in any way solve the heavy armor meta issue. Making them medium is also not really a solution because we typically rely on running that heavy chest piece to survive. So the only thing that makes sense is to make heavy armor have a pretty sizable damage penalty for 5 or more pieces. If you want to play tank or support you can go heavy, otherwise no.

Qbiken

Vapirko wrote: »

A bit has changed since this thread was posted. We weren’t quite into the AOE snare/damage meta yet. Heavy armor needs to be prevented from doing a competitive amount of damage. I honestly hate to say this (I play 5 medium) because I think a heavier brawler playstyle should be possible, but between snares, proc sets and damage sets, Major defile, troll king, earthgore, heavy armor users can far too easily just turtle up and still dish out crazy damage. And ZOS is introducing more really strong snare and proc setd with Wrathstone. So idk what else to say. Heavy should have a flat out damage reduction for 5 or more pieces. If you want damage you go medium or light end of story. The thing is sets like fury and ravager, 7th get a bad rap because of heavy but these sets are great medium sets too and nerfing them will NOT in any way solve the heavy armor meta issue. Making them medium is also not really a solution because we typically rely on running that heavy chest piece to survive. So the only thing that makes sense is to make heavy armor have a pretty sizable damage penalty for 5 or more pieces. If you want to play tank or support you can go heavy, otherwise no.

If you add "penalties" for wearing heavy armor, there need to be some kind of "penalty" for wearing medium or light. Now the question is, what would that be?

I personally don't think you should be punished for using a specific armor type, and I don't think we're in any heavy armor meta either tbh. High resistance meta, sure, but not a heavy armor meta.

Chilly-McFreeze

ThePainGuy wrote: »

at least give medium armor 5 combat passives like the other armor skill lines.

The "amount" of combat passives is almost equal, even tho medium got 1 combat relevant stat passive less than light. But to say they miss out on a whole passive (passives usually do more than just 1 thing), is a bit misleading.

Light gives 7 boni:
Snare reduction, sprint cost decrease, mag regen, mag cost decrease, spell resistance, spell crit chance, spell penetration

Medium gives 6 combat boni, 2 sneak boni:
Sprint speed, dodge cost decrease, stam regen, stam cost decrease, weapon crit chance, weapon damage
sneak cost, detection area decrease

Heavy depends on how you count them, between 6 and 9:
both resistance, Constitution resource return, Heavy attack resource return, health regen, max health, healing recieved

So they are pretty close. When you value Heavy armor keep in mind that they changed racial health regen away from %, making that (e.g. in combo with TK) a tad weaker and that they will take a look at sets like 7th, earthgore etc.

Vapirko wrote: »

I think a heavier brawler playstyle should be possible, but between snares, proc sets and damage sets, Major defile, troll king, earthgore, heavy armor users can far too easily just turtle up and still dish out crazy damage. And ZOS is introducing more really strong snare and proc setd with Wrathstone. So idk what else to say. Heavy should have a flat out damage reduction for 5 or more pieces. If you want damage you go medium or light end of story. The thing is sets like fury and ravager, 7th get a bad rap because of heavy but these sets are great medium sets too and nerfing them will NOT in any way solve the heavy armor meta issue. Making them medium is also not really a solution because we typically rely on running that heavy chest piece to survive. So the only thing that makes sense is to make heavy armor have a pretty sizable damage penalty for 5 or more pieces. If you want to play tank or support you can go heavy, otherwise no.

Will you also add a resistance debuff to medium and light armors? Heavy has already less crit and 15% less weapon dmg.
Haven't I read somewhere that snares are looked at in a coming update or was that bollocks?
They also said they will look at Earthgore, 7th etc.

IlCanis_LupuslI

Heavy armor isn't op... Fury and 7th are the main culprits here.

Wuuffyy

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Heavy armor isn't op... Fury and 7th are the main culprits here.

No I don’t think there is a problem
With heavy armor and those sets aren’t a problem the problem lies in that there are almost 0 med sets that are good for stam dps in pvp.

TequilaFire

Devs, just assign everyone the same armor weapons and abilities when we enter Cyrodiil please.
It is the only way these constant call for everything nerfed in the game will stop.

FrankonPC

ezio45 wrote: »

Part of the reason stamina is strong is how much they benefit from heavy. Like yes medium armor can dish out a ton of damage but there squishy. It's the Stam in heavy that can still do huge damage and can take massive amounts of damage that's the problem

A big part of that is due to the heavy armor stamina sets that are available. A lot of magicka classes go light for the pen and there are high damage light armor choices...these choices do not exist in medium for fear of making an OP gank build.

Imagine if there was a magicka fury or magicka 7th legion set out there. A lot of mag classes wouldn't be choosing light anymore because they can now have survivability and damage.

In my opinion the heavy issue revolves more around the sets than anything else. An adjustment to them should be made, but it also wouldn't hurt to give medium another beneficial passive since the sneak one is just garbage.

Sheuib

Heavy armor is balanced right now with medium and light. Medium and light do more damage and heavy takes more damage. You have to put together a good burst to kill any good player in any armor set. Your suggestion is just going to kill heavy armor and the good players will still survive and kill you. Then what are you going to blame it on. My suggestion for now is get yourself a set of heavy armor.

usmcjdking

Rapid Mending should be 10% and work opposite of amplitude.

ThePainGuy

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ThePainGuy wrote: »

at least give medium armor 5 combat passives like the other armor skill lines.

The "amount" of combat passives is almost equal, even tho medium got 1 combat relevant stat passive less than light. But to say they miss out on a whole passive (passives usually do more than just 1 thing), is a bit misleading.

Light gives 7 boni:
Snare reduction, sprint cost decrease, mag regen, mag cost decrease, spell resistance, spell crit chance, spell penetration

Medium gives 6 combat boni, 2 sneak boni:
Sprint speed, dodge cost decrease, stam regen, stam cost decrease, weapon crit chance, weapon damage
sneak cost, detection area decrease

Heavy depends on how you count them, between 6 and 9:
both resistance, Constitution resource return, Heavy attack resource return, health regen, max health, healing recieved

So they are pretty close. When you value Heavy armor keep in mind that they changed racial health regen away from %, making that (e.g. in combo with TK) a tad weaker and that they will take a look at sets like 7th, earthgore etc.

Vapirko wrote: »

I think a heavier brawler playstyle should be possible, but between snares, proc sets and damage sets, Major defile, troll king, earthgore, heavy armor users can far too easily just turtle up and still dish out crazy damage. And ZOS is introducing more really strong snare and proc setd with Wrathstone. So idk what else to say. Heavy should have a flat out damage reduction for 5 or more pieces. If you want damage you go medium or light end of story. The thing is sets like fury and ravager, 7th get a bad rap because of heavy but these sets are great medium sets too and nerfing them will NOT in any way solve the heavy armor meta issue. Making them medium is also not really a solution because we typically rely on running that heavy chest piece to survive. So the only thing that makes sense is to make heavy armor have a pretty sizable damage penalty for 5 or more pieces. If you want to play tank or support you can go heavy, otherwise no.

Will you also add a resistance debuff to medium and light armors? Heavy has already less crit and 15% less weapon dmg.
Haven't I read somewhere that snares are looked at in a coming update or was that bollocks?
They also said they will look at Earthgore, 7th etc.

Sorry, but there is nothing a little misleading about what i said. Light armor and heavy armor have 5 combat useful passives and medium has 4 (improved sneak is not useful in combat in PVE or PVP). Thats not debatable, but fact. But lets look at what each passive provides. Light armor first two passives give 2 benefits each and the last 3 passives provide 1 benefit each (7 benefits total). Heavy armor first two passives provide 2 benefits each, and last 3 passives provide 1 benefit each (7 benefits total). Medium armor (first two passives give 3 total benefits, improved sneak gives 0, last two passives give 3 total benefits) gets 6 bonuses from their respective combat passives. So I will repeat, medium armor should have 5 combat useful passives similar to the other skill lines (adding extra stamina (500-1000) to improved sneak would open that passive up to wide range of playstyles in PVE and PVP).

You say my statements are misleading and then in the same post prove my point by saying the different armor passives are almost equal. If we want to discuss something that is a bit misleading, here is something: --> What is misleading is the notion among some in the community that heavy armor overall is overpowered/overperforming (deserving of a nerf), when in fact it is select sets in the heavy armor category that are really good (fury, seventh, etc...).

Twohothardware

The main problem isn't heavy armor, its resistances in general. Most PvP players are in light or medium, especially magicka players, and yet they're easily hitting 25k-30K+ resistance through the new Protective trait jewelry, running Sword and Board, Blood Spawn Monster set, and sets like Armor Master that lets even light armor wearers get high resistance from using just Harness Magicka. ZOS has gotten way outside of the realm of how armor is suppose to be differentiated.

Chilly-McFreeze

ThePainGuy wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ThePainGuy wrote: »

at least give medium armor 5 combat passives like the other armor skill lines.

The "amount" of combat passives is almost equal, even tho medium got 1 combat relevant stat passive less than light. But to say they miss out on a whole passive (passives usually do more than just 1 thing), is a bit misleading.

Light gives 7 boni:
Snare reduction, sprint cost decrease, mag regen, mag cost decrease, spell resistance, spell crit chance, spell penetration

Medium gives 6 combat boni, 2 sneak boni:
Sprint speed, dodge cost decrease, stam regen, stam cost decrease, weapon crit chance, weapon damage
sneak cost, detection area decrease

Heavy depends on how you count them, between 6 and 9:
both resistance, Constitution resource return, Heavy attack resource return, health regen, max health, healing recieved

So they are pretty close. When you value Heavy armor keep in mind that they changed racial health regen away from %, making that (e.g. in combo with TK) a tad weaker and that they will take a look at sets like 7th, earthgore etc.

Vapirko wrote: »

I think a heavier brawler playstyle should be possible, but between snares, proc sets and damage sets, Major defile, troll king, earthgore, heavy armor users can far too easily just turtle up and still dish out crazy damage. And ZOS is introducing more really strong snare and proc setd with Wrathstone. So idk what else to say. Heavy should have a flat out damage reduction for 5 or more pieces. If you want damage you go medium or light end of story. The thing is sets like fury and ravager, 7th get a bad rap because of heavy but these sets are great medium sets too and nerfing them will NOT in any way solve the heavy armor meta issue. Making them medium is also not really a solution because we typically rely on running that heavy chest piece to survive. So the only thing that makes sense is to make heavy armor have a pretty sizable damage penalty for 5 or more pieces. If you want to play tank or support you can go heavy, otherwise no.

Will you also add a resistance debuff to medium and light armors? Heavy has already less crit and 15% less weapon dmg.
Haven't I read somewhere that snares are looked at in a coming update or was that bollocks?
They also said they will look at Earthgore, 7th etc.

Sorry, but there is nothing a little misleading about what i said. Light armor and heavy armor have 5 combat useful passives and medium has 4 (improved sneak is not useful in combat in PVE or PVP). Thats not debatable, but fact. But lets look at what each passive provides. Light armor first two passives give 2 benefits each and the last 3 passives provide 1 benefit each (7 benefits total). Heavy armor first two passives provide 2 benefits each, and last 3 passives provide 1 benefit each (7 benefits total). Medium armor (first two passives give 3 total benefits, improved sneak gives 0, last two passives give 3 total benefits) gets 6 bonuses from their respective combat passives. So I will repeat, medium armor should have 5 combat useful passives similar to the other skill lines (adding extra stamina (500-1000) to improved sneak would open that passive up to wide range of playstyles in PVE and PVP).

You say my statements are misleading and then in the same post prove my point by saying the different armor passives are almost equal. If we want to discuss something that is a bit misleading, here is something: --> What is misleading is the notion among some in the community that heavy armor overall is overpowered/overperforming (deserving of a nerf), when in fact it is select sets in the heavy armor category that are really good (fury, seventh, etc...).

I totally agree on your Last Paragraph. But again, it's completely indifferent if the boni are spread over 4, 5 or even just over 3 passives. What they get out of medium as a whole is almost equal. Equal enough to the point, that a buff isnt the way to go but rather a rework of the general pain points. Some you already mentioned, like certain sets. Snares are another. After that we can speak about flat buffs.

Iskiab

Problem is simple, all armour passives are good in pvp including the heavy ones. The best benefits for light armour is the pen and a bit of regen, medium has weapon damage that’s supposed to compensate for the extra mitigation of heavy - it doesn’t .

The pen for light armour isn’t enough. This has a double effect; it makes light armour wearers too squishy and it makes heavy armour and mitigation in general too strong. Maybe bring the pen on light up to 10k, add 3k to medium (number are arbitrary and more would need to be done for real numbers). Then further reduce damage in BGs, what is it 50% now? Bring it up to 60% to get the TTK up.

ThePainGuy

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ThePainGuy wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ThePainGuy wrote: »

at least give medium armor 5 combat passives like the other armor skill lines.

The "amount" of combat passives is almost equal, even tho medium got 1 combat relevant stat passive less than light. But to say they miss out on a whole passive (passives usually do more than just 1 thing), is a bit misleading.

Light gives 7 boni:
Snare reduction, sprint cost decrease, mag regen, mag cost decrease, spell resistance, spell crit chance, spell penetration

Medium gives 6 combat boni, 2 sneak boni:
Sprint speed, dodge cost decrease, stam regen, stam cost decrease, weapon crit chance, weapon damage
sneak cost, detection area decrease

Heavy depends on how you count them, between 6 and 9:
both resistance, Constitution resource return, Heavy attack resource return, health regen, max health, healing recieved

So they are pretty close. When you value Heavy armor keep in mind that they changed racial health regen away from %, making that (e.g. in combo with TK) a tad weaker and that they will take a look at sets like 7th, earthgore etc.

Vapirko wrote: »

I think a heavier brawler playstyle should be possible, but between snares, proc sets and damage sets, Major defile, troll king, earthgore, heavy armor users can far too easily just turtle up and still dish out crazy damage. And ZOS is introducing more really strong snare and proc setd with Wrathstone. So idk what else to say. Heavy should have a flat out damage reduction for 5 or more pieces. If you want damage you go medium or light end of story. The thing is sets like fury and ravager, 7th get a bad rap because of heavy but these sets are great medium sets too and nerfing them will NOT in any way solve the heavy armor meta issue. Making them medium is also not really a solution because we typically rely on running that heavy chest piece to survive. So the only thing that makes sense is to make heavy armor have a pretty sizable damage penalty for 5 or more pieces. If you want to play tank or support you can go heavy, otherwise no.

Will you also add a resistance debuff to medium and light armors? Heavy has already less crit and 15% less weapon dmg.
Haven't I read somewhere that snares are looked at in a coming update or was that bollocks?
They also said they will look at Earthgore, 7th etc.

Sorry, but there is nothing a little misleading about what i said. Light armor and heavy armor have 5 combat useful passives and medium has 4 (improved sneak is not useful in combat in PVE or PVP). Thats not debatable, but fact. But lets look at what each passive provides. Light armor first two passives give 2 benefits each and the last 3 passives provide 1 benefit each (7 benefits total). Heavy armor first two passives provide 2 benefits each, and last 3 passives provide 1 benefit each (7 benefits total). Medium armor (first two passives give 3 total benefits, improved sneak gives 0, last two passives give 3 total benefits) gets 6 bonuses from their respective combat passives. So I will repeat, medium armor should have 5 combat useful passives similar to the other skill lines (adding extra stamina (500-1000) to improved sneak would open that passive up to wide range of playstyles in PVE and PVP).

You say my statements are misleading and then in the same post prove my point by saying the different armor passives are almost equal. If we want to discuss something that is a bit misleading, here is something: --> What is misleading is the notion among some in the community that heavy armor overall is overpowered/overperforming (deserving of a nerf), when in fact it is select sets in the heavy armor category that are really good (fury, seventh, etc...).

I totally agree on your Last Paragraph. But again, it's completely indifferent if the boni are spread over 4, 5 or even just over 3 passives. What they get out of medium as a whole is almost equal. Equal enough to the point, that a buff isnt the way to go but rather a rework of the general pain points. Some you already mentioned, like certain sets. Snares are another. After that we can speak about flat buffs.

I disagreed with you about the claim that my points were misleading because objectively medium armor offers the least number of combat useful passives (or benefits, if you want to break down what each passive offers). Your claim is that looking at the armor skill lines as a whole they are almost equal. Now I am not arguing against your point. But your point is subjective, not objectively true. My point about numerically medium having less passives is fact. There are many people in the community looking at what each armor skill line offers as a whole and they don't think they are equal, or even close to that. Zos last patch (murkmire) even claimed they wanted to incentivize people picking light and medium armor over heavy. However, they did not add additional benefits to medium armor, they increased the amount increase to weapon damage and changed how major evasion (an active skill) works. Therefore, how medium armor as a whole looks is still subjectively up in the air, many people still think it underperforms.

I am advocating for something that zos claims to be doing right now. Removing niche things like (stealth/sneak) away from certain races or armors and opening it up to wider player base. I am advocating for supplementing improved sneak to offer something that is useful in combat to all players in medium armor in PVE or PVP (not just players involved in the justice system or gankers). Whether someone thinks that as a whole all armor skill lines are equal is completely left up to interpretation. People still think light armor with shieldstacking is overperforming, some think heavy armor ability to turtle and deal high damage is overperforming, some think medium armor roll dodging around cyrodil is overperforming. Numerically the armor skill lines don't offer equal amount of benefits/passives in combat. Im just bringing that to light.