So new patch notes still show how much the developers don't play the game. They think being able to be interrupted was the reason why "CAST TIME" made shield users vulnerable for "TO LONG" not the fact they added a "CAST TIME" to force shield user to be vulnerable longer. Like who the hell is coming up with these changes and the reasoning. Still will not renew my subscription until the cast time is removed this is still not acceptable. There are better ways to nerf shield stacking that would not destroy a class. They have been provided throughout this forum and other threads but are ignored without any feed back from the developers to show they are actually listening to our concerns and ideas to better the game. For a game who needs their subscriber base and their plays they sure show a lack of caring for their player base with these type of changes.

Daedric Summoning
Conjured Ward: This ability and its morphs can no longer be interrupted.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
Because combat pace is so quick, allowing this ability to be interrupted meant that Light Armor players would be vulnerable for too long. Keeping the cast time, but now allowing it to be interrupted allows enemies a short window of time to get in burst damage and kill a damage shield user. We’ll continue to monitor feedback closely for this ability throughout this PTS cycle.

ACTUALLY they should make shields 20% stronger and take off the cast time

After reading patch notes 4.2.1 I can only say that ZOS only hears the cheers of players who can fight on the forum and call for nerfs when they lose.

ZOS read it again:
Shields are not OP in themselves, but only in a few cases when you can apply two at a time. You have turned off every Sorc skill to eliminate one stupid combination of skills: Curse -> Star -> Cage -> Frag -> Wrath. Only you forgot that it was the only thing Sorc had to kill anything at all. We do not have good sustain, we do not have good defense outside the shield, now we have nothing in what we would be a little better than other classes. You can also delete Sorcs and forget that they ever existed - along with the players. You will have a base of players you deserve.


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Without a shield, light armor wearers are one shot material in pvp. this means that in order to keep a shield up (if the duration is 9 seconds), light armor wearers will need to cast a shield every 8 seconds to prevent the shield from falling off and becoming an instant casualty instead of fighting. 13-15% of the fight. if a player has lag, they will probably have to cast it more frequently in order to survive.
With one shot mechanics in some of the pve content, light armor users are one shot materal without their shields. Again, they will be casting spending seconds casting non damaging ablilities to prevent dying which will lower their dps. one second off your rotation if you know you are going to need the shield to survive due to a healer's inability to heal or protect through one shot mechanics. if playing solo material, it will be clunky and remove the smooth flow to rotations. Less people will want to play a class that spends nearly 15% of it's time not dying. Animation cancelling - killed any time a shield may need to be applied.
Wouldn't healers be more viable if instead of removing all light armor survival skills, healers had better healing skills? cast times will cause disruption in animation cancelling which while some still think is controversial, will still be done by classes that do not have to spend one second casting a shield because the healer can not protect them from some effects.

Patch 4.2.1 - Hardened Ward cast time

I tried some intense solo combat against a lot of resource and flag guards in Cyrodiil. I'm losing a lot of fights that I know I can regularly win on live.

The cast time on Hardened Ward is too much. Stopping for what seems like a very long second to lay an egg in the middle of intense solo combat just turns you into a sitting duck. Hardened Ward is now a liability, and without it the whole character will need to be rethought and rebuilt.

I haven't tried it in PvP, but the effect of the cast time must be even worse given the added high mobility and split second reaction times required for PvP combat.

The fighting style that makes Mag Sorc distinct from other classes is going to be impossible to use, except for fighting trash mobs and delve bosses.

IMHO I think that adding cast times to shields is a big mistake.

killmove wrote: »

I think this is a bad move from ZOS as they can't assume their decisions.
Shields are game breaking for about 3 years. Now that a good change seems to came, they lost their balls in front of players.
Don't you understand that they don't represent the whole population and because of them most of other players are disgusted of PvP.

Adding a cast time to shields and make it impossible to interrupt wont change anything.
Guess what ??? Sorcs will now cast healing ward and then after cast Conjured Ward and Annulment.

Somebody is confusing sorcs with stamblades.

And you think casting healing ward before using a real shield is not going to affect sorcs? You are either clueless and trolling. Wasting a global cooldown to apply a very weak healing ward each time you want to apply a shield means you will spent at least 2 out of 6 global cooldowns applying your 1 shield. That's 1/3 of your time given a 5 to 6 sec cycle. If you factor in the 1 sec cast time and the already inherent delay that goes up to 3 sec, which is 1/2 of your time. You are right ... that's going to be so OP ...

nuttytom wrote: »

"Because combat pace is quick" so here's a cast time to slow it down and interrupt the flow of sorcerer combat.

Well it was interrupting the kills from gankblades and heavy stam builds...

The sheer fact that is thread is almost to 1000 posts should speak volumes.

You have sorc mains, non sorc mains, sorc haters, etc all saying this is a poorly thought out attempt at balancing.

If you want to remove damage shields effectiveness for light armor, you have to give light armor players SOMETHING. They cannot survive in the current meta as is, and they will go extinct for many classes.

The only way to run light armor is with 25k resistances through other means, 1.5k-2k crit resistance, and 25k+ health if this patch goes live. And to stack these stats you are giving up so much you'll be a wet noodle.

Playing a heavy armor or medium armor stamina player will be significantly more effective in any competitive situation.

Lastly. It was stated that they wanted to give counterplay to damage shields. Consistent high damage from a single source or multiple sources was counterplay to this defense mechanism. Problem is cyrodiil meta is mediocre damage, high defense, and running in large groups, and these players CANNOT kill a great Magicka Sorc (or really any skilled player) on their own. Skilled players had no problem dealing with average MagSorc, MagNbs, or MagWardens. But to kill a skilled light armored Magicka player it required skill as well. One incap, dawnbreaker, meteor, leap, or hard hitting ability or CC when the damage shield was down was a death sentence. If a player casts a vigor and rally precisely as needed coupled with roll Dodge and blocking, they would become very hard to kill. But a Light armor Magicka player doing the same isn't balance? Nothing but hypocrisy.

I'm honestly surprised these changes have come this far. I'm pretty sure these changes were mostly centered around PvP with little thought to PvE, but let me provide some insight into how the shield cast times will ruin Sorc PvE. Regardless of PvP cries of doom, I think the PvP sorcs, if they convert to heavy and sustain is buffed, will fare okay.... not great, but okay.

As for PvE, they actually are doomed. Here's why:


Current Sorc. Weaknesses - if you are familiar with these, feel free to skip:
In PvE sorcs right now are either the second weakest or tied for weakest dps with mag wardens (at least amongst magicka, but I'm pretty sure this applies to stamina sorcs as well even if it doesn't apply to stam wardens); I currently have the highest solo sorc parse in my guild at nearly 44k dps (nearly 46k with an assist and resource synergy; no SPC/olorime though), but most others are pulling 48k+ and often closer to 55k with other classes. There are a few good reasons why sorcs are weaker, namely sorcs do not have a very unique kit anymore for dps other than Liquid Lightning, Cfrags, and the storm atro ult (their execute is weaker in PvE due to the lower % required and LL; LL and atro are a GREAT group benefit, however). Secondly, their sustain is honestly beyond terrible. Without a synergy, heavy attacks are a must just to keep DPS up; throw in any shielding and your sustain is completely gone, further lowering dps. With these parses my minor vulnerability uptime is already 70%+ (90-95% for my force pulse build where I do 40k dps). What this means is minor vuln. scaling for mag sorcs is TERRIBLE in trials. Additionally, sorcs don't benefit much from trap or channeled acceleration (dps loss/no gain on my elemental weapon parses; fp might benefit from this since I run mechanical acuity with 25-27% uptime, but I need to test it still) since I am currently running low crit builds (Mothers sorrow has not done well compared to other sets for me in the past, but I may need to revisit it)... what this means is I am not benefiting from a lot of these buffs other classes rely on, if I can even spare the skill slot in the first place (see the rest of the convo. for reasons why; namely bound aegis and inner light). In many trials where I had to have a shield and self-sustain (vMoL maze, vCR downstairs, vHoF pinnacle factotum upper area, etc.) it simply isn't slottable since I have to double bar bound aegis (I already sacrifice inner light for shield and power/crit surge).

Now everything above about my parses also assumed ideal conditions. Let's factor in that I often cannot stand in one spot often enough for various sets (goodbye Siroria) or stay close enough for zaan (I sacrifice that to let melee stay close while I handle mechanics like meteors from rakkhat, the Mage HM chain lightning, etc.). My dps has now dropped another several thousand probably... it comes close to the original with raid buffs assuming I stay on the same boss the whole time and do not do trial mechanics like the maze in vMoL, upstairs in vHoF, or downstairs in vCR.

PTS induced weaknesses:
One thing I loved about the sorc and I took great pleasure in, even if my dps wasn't nearly as good as the other classes (I did provide a lot of alkosh and dps buffs to others with LL and the storm atro, respectively), was my ability to SURVIVE, namely with a combination of empowered ward and power/crit surge. I was okay with being a weaker class namely for this reason as I loved providing utility (synergies) and doing mechanics no one else wanted to do (because they wanted to parse and pull high numbers on the boss). This made me perfect for handling the aforementioned mechanics like vMoL maze, vHoF upstairs on pinnacle, vCR downstairs, kiting various things, interrupting llothis in vAS +2 (one, if not the only, classes who can do well with a force pulse build as well). With the new cast time of the shield, the Sorc viability has SUBSTANTIALLY diminished... close to 0 in fact. Changing shields to be critable/have resists, not being able to stack, and potentially increasing cost with sequential usage were actually all fine changes by me (as long as the latter was handled appropriately) to balance PvP. In PvE, however, sorcs do not have an instantaneous burst heal: they rely primarily on crit/power surge (remember how I said we are fairly low crit as well? This plays a role here in hp sustain). The thing is, there is a lot of instantaneous, rng damage that cannot be avoided such as vCR orb projectile damage, vCR humanoid boss teleportation on you, meteors in vHRC from Yokeai Kai (fast enough you can't shield and they're dropping tons in a very broken fashion atm), various dots like from Za Maja, multiple mob damage, etc. etc. In vHRC you also have the sehai storm from the warrior, in vMoL the orbs in the maze randomly shift and will just occasionally hit you. In vAS +2... well.... shielding through llothis poison cone while also taking other mechanics that sometimes just can't be avoided (felms bacon strips when both land right beside you while in the cone) all amount to A LOT of FAST-PACED DAMAGE. What this means is I need a burst heal or large, instant shield. Most of these cannot be preemptively shielded through without further compromising my already low dps. Some cannot be shielded at all: sehai storm in vHRC, for instance since you need to block to survive when the shield goes down. Other classes do not have these punishments since they have instant cast heals even if they cannot shield as well as HoTs they use regularly and can apply while the feces hit the fan, so to speak. Furthermore, even with power/crit surge, I have to have something to hit to get heals, which does not happen in some cases like the vMoL maze (ntm if I'm low crit I am not always guaranteed ~1 heal / second...). What this means is casting shields now takes away SIGNIFICANT dps in addition to their SIGNIFICANT resource usage for bad sustain, and I cannot run/block while even trying to use it (vMoL maze requires FAST running, especially on the left side). Many claim (and probably you guys as well given the changes) that dark exchange and morphs will make up for this: the fact is they will not, see above... it is a cast time and will SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER dps and CANNOT be used as a burst heal due to the cast time and inability to block/run in many situations, such as sehai storm or vAS +2 poison cone (this is a significant difference compared to every other class!). This is all assuming I have the bar space to slot it in the first place. One argument is to constantly renew the shield. This will not work either because it further caps our dps (we are some of the weakest) and resources (we struggle some of the most of any class) and sometimes still needs recast. In my experience, crit/power surge does not heal enough to negate bursty damage; I often have to use it in conjunction with a shield to get my hp back up without being bursted down by mechanics. The Matriarch is also not viable due to issues with mechanics and pet AI/mechanics interactions as well as bar slot availability.


What this means:
Sorcs will remain a weaker class and will be shut out due to their inability to pull decent numbers AND survive (most every class can still do this). A lot of melee users have mentioned shields were op regardless, but they have 20% (I think) AOE reduction and higher resists (this brings 20k initial damage down several thousand more for stam than it would magicka), as well as a fairly bursty HoT with an initial heal in the form of vigor. Oftentimes, magicka have to solo portions (maze/vHoF upstairs/vCR downstairs) of trials and take the same extraneous damage that melee users take as well; and we oftentimes have to stand in melee range of the boss too, so we suffer as much as stam many a time and this time without shields. Our 20% AOE reduction and Vigor WERE SHIELDS! Sorcs are no longer a nuke-resistant cockroach, pull some of the lowest numbers, bring little utility to the group other than a synergy or two, and in general just will not be worth playing. It would be one thing if all classes were equally affected and nerfed in terms of ability to self-heal instantly or have to make much more strenuous decisions about what skills they need to survive and simultaneously sacrifice a larger amount of dps (comparatively in both the amount lost and the initial base difference), but they do not have to. Sorcs will ultimately be fairly useless except in some very niche occasions.


My recommendations:
To balance sorcs in PvP, I think it is fair to make shields critable/be based on resists, prevent shield stacking (mainly healing ward, annulment and morphs, and hardened/conjured ward; shields like barrier, igneous, etc. should not count here). This, mainly, will remove the PvP issues without hurting PvE (i.e. do all of that BUT KEEP THE CAST TIME AT 0). You could possibly even create shield exhaustion where each subsequent shield is for less or costs more (make this logarithmic/exponential, respectively; the first 2-3 casts within 4 seconds should be relatively cheap/effective, but subsequent casts should be very expensive or ineffective if you implement this). Furthermore, to bring sorcs dps up to speed, two things can be done:
1. Give some kind of passive or way to increase sustain (possibly a class spammable as well; one suggestion is to move bound aegis into a passive, this frees up a lot of space for other skills and allows for spell symmetry. It could also be combined with dark exchange finally, even if it has a cast time).

2. Give some kind of damage buff. This would ideally be more crit and some other kind of DoT we can utilize (you would need to free up bar space first, see number 1 for examples).

Other possibilities:
If shields remain strong in addition to granting sorcs better sustain and mildly better dps, lower dps is very acceptable because they still have niche roles to play (see aforementioned about synergies and cockroach survivalness/doing all the group mechanics).


I know I will probably get lost in the maelstrom of replies and I don't post on the forums normally, so I probably won't even be looked at. However, I have played a mag sorc (and all of its variations, pet and otherwise) practically since the game came out and have also logged many hours in all trials with him (with many leaderboard runs), so I believe I have some experience and valid insights into the state of the magicka sorc compared to other classes. I hope this view has been informative and if you have any questions, would like clarification, or would like examples of parses, scenarios, etc. please do not hesitate to ask.