Sorc Healers are not viable anymore

BalticBlues

A: Cast time for Empowered Ward is 1 second
1. If the Matriarch is dead, the most important group heal is gone.
2. To protect the Matriarch, Sorc Healers regularly have to cast Empowered Ward to renew it.
3. During the Cast Time of 1 sec, Sorc Healers cannot heal the group.
4. The increased duration of Empowered Ward does not increase the duration, because not the duration of Empowered Ward decides how long the Matriarch is protected, the incoming damage does. Example: A 12k shield receiving 2k damage/sec is gone after 6 secs. No matter if the shield duration is 9 or 14 secs.

B. Cast time for the Matriarch is 1.5 secs
1. Reviving a killed Matriarch has a cast time of 1.5 secs.
2. During the Cast Time of 1.5 secs, Sorc Healers cannot heal the group.
3. Then giving the Matriarch a shield now has an extra cast time of 1 sec.
4. 2.5 secs without healing is a death sentence for the group in a DLC dungeon or even a Trial.

Conclusion: No group can risk using a Healer with such downtimes. Not the duration of Empowered Ward needs to be longer, the amount of shielding Empowered Ward gives to the Matriarch needs to be much higher. Moreover, from years of experience I can tell you: Only ONE cast time is feasible. 1.5 secs downtown to revive a dead Matriarch already is very risky. An additional cast time to cast her a shield means the end for the Sorc Healer.

MrGraves

Yeah I think this update kills support sorcs alot more than it does the dps sorc. (which seems to have been the goal. I kind only agree with nerfing overload and even the overload nerf may have gone a little too far but i havent tested it. I dont use overload.)

Kadoin

Don't forget "healing ward"

DTStormfox

Solution: Run a templar healer

BalticBlues

DTStormfox wrote: »

Solution: Run a templar healer

Did't ZOS say, that each class should be able to perform each role?

If Sorc Healers are not viable anymore, because no vet group can afford a healer with 2.5s downtimes, the least thing ZOS could offer is a class change token for compensation.

codestripper

Kadoin wrote: »

Don't forget "healing ward"

That doesn't shield your pets as far as I'm aware.

BalticBlues

"Developer wrote:

Conjured Ward: Keeping the cast time, but not allowing it to be interrupted allows enemies a short window of time to get in burst damage and kill a damage shield user. We’ll continue to monitor feedback closely for this ability throughout this PTS cycle.

Dear Developers, please note that ESO ist more than just PVP!
I am getting the impression that you do not think at all about the consequences for PvE?

Sorc Healers already have a 1.5s cast time for their healing pet, and so already are considered almost too much of a risk for vet DLC Dungeons and Trials. With an extra 1s cast time for Empowered Ward to protect the healing pet, a total of 2.5s cast time to revive and protect a healing pet makes the Sorc Healer dysfunktional by too many casting downtimes.

ZOS, PLEASE do a simple test:
Run vet Scalecaller Peak with a Sorc Healer using his healing Matriarch, now having two cast times. If you manage to do this, I will shup up and admit that even after playing for years since beta I do not understand this game enough. However, if you will probably fail miserably in all the action of this great dungeon, then please admit that another extra cast time is not feasible for Sorc Healers. Thank you!

ezio45

BalticBlues wrote: »

DTStormfox wrote: »

Solution: Run a templar healer

Did't ZOS say, that each class should be able to perform each role?

If Sorc Healers are not viable anymore, because no vet group can afford a healer with 2.5s downtimes, the least thing ZOS could offer is a class change token for compensation.

i dont want a class change token, I want my class working like it should

LiquidPony

Sorc healers are still viable as raid healers, at least, as long as another healer is around to provide burst heals since the Matriarch usually isn't necessary (the sorc raid healer is more about HoTs, synergies, utility, and DPS).

Lord_Eomer

LiquidPony wrote: »

Sorc healers are still viable as raid healers, at least, as long as another healer is around to provide burst heals since the Matriarch usually isn't necessary (the sorc raid healer is more about HoTs, synergies, utility, and DPS).

Currently its DPS meta hardly healer need to heal and boss die.

Sorc healers are not viable anymore and this class is also weaker in Tanking comparing others. Infact Sorc becoming worst of Healer, Tank and DPS!

Darkenarlol

some bad news here...

with all my disappointment and unhappiness about incoming shield changes

(cast time is BAD! bad enough to simply never slot a cast time abilities or shelve f^@^ up class)

i can't mention that...


my group usually runs in 3dd self sustain setup with emergency big heals from my birdy.

so as part of a routine we did SC HM testerday...


i was keeping in mind upcoming shield changes and my only 2 options - remove shileds with cast time from my bar

or get (let's imagine that some polite analogy of VERY %$^*&% not happy is here) every time i use cast time nonsence ,

get mad and ragequit TESO...


so i simply removed shields...

yep i spammed birdy a little more frequently ( because of being scared lol) so my dps dropped to baaaad 30-35k

but.. we did hm...no shileds no dead birds no party deaths caused by dead birds =/


i hate cast times but cannot lie like omg omg everything is undoable now...

BalticBlues

LiquidPony wrote: »

Sorc healers are still viable as raid healers, at least, as long as another healer is around to provide burst heals

Sure, combined with a Templar burst heal even a NB healer could work.
But this is not the topic. The topic is, that the Matriarch IS the Sorcs Burst Heal.
And the new patch destroys this burst heal.

With two cast times to handle instead of one to maintain the Sorc's burst heal, there will be so many downtimes for the Sorc Healer that his group probably will just wipe during one of his casts. LiquidPony, perhaps you can show me how you do vet Scalecaller Peak with a Sorc Healer to prove me wrong? Because of the one cast time for the Matriarch, I already am afraid to run this TODAY with my Sorc Healer. With two cast times it is probably game over for me.

Azriael2

-

LiquidPony

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Sorc healers are still viable as raid healers, at least, as long as another healer is around to provide burst heals since the Matriarch usually isn't necessary (the sorc raid healer is more about HoTs, synergies, utility, and DPS).

Currently its DPS meta hardly healer need to heal and boss die.

Sorc healers are not viable anymore and this class is also weaker in Tanking comparing others. Infact Sorc becoming worst of Healer, Tank and DPS!

A sorc raid healer can still do plenty of healing with Healing Springs, Combat Prayer, Orbs, Sanguine Altar, and Bogdan. But yes, the point of the sorc healer is that they do decent DPS, remove the need of running a magsorc DPS, and provide plenty of group utility.

Kikke

Darkenarlol wrote: »

some bad news here...

with all my disappointment and unhappiness about incoming shield changes

(cast time is BAD! bad enough to simply never slot a cast time abilities or shelve f^@^ up class)

i can't mention that...


my group usually runs in 3dd self sustain setup with emergency big heals from my birdy.

so as part of a routine we did SC HM testerday...


i was keeping in mind upcoming shield changes and my only 2 options - remove shileds with cast time from my bar

or get (let's imagine that some polite analogy of VERY %$^*&% not happy is here) every time i use cast time nonsence ,

get mad and ragequit TESO...


so i simply removed shields...

yep i spammed birdy a little more frequently ( because of being scared lol) so my dps dropped to baaaad 30-35k

but.. we did hm...no shileds no dead birds no party deaths caused by dead birds =/


i hate cast times but cannot lie like omg omg everything is undoable now...

And I do vSC HM without bird. You don't need healing when everything oneshots anyhow.

LiquidPony

BalticBlues wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Sorc healers are still viable as raid healers, at least, as long as another healer is around to provide burst heals

Sure, combined with a Templar burst heal even a NB healer could work.
But this is not the topic. The topic is, that the Matriarch IS the Sorcs Burst Heal.
And the new patch destroys this burst heal.

With two cast times to handle instead of one to maintain the Sorc's burst heal, there will be so many downtimes for the Sorc Healer that his group probably will just wipe during one of his casts. LiquidPony, perhaps you can show me how you do vet Scalecaller Peak with a Sorc Healer to prove me wrong? Because of the one cast time for the Matriarch, I already am afraid to run this TODAY with my Sorc Healer. With two cast times it is probably game over for me.

When did I say anything about being able to heal vSCP with a sorc healer? I just said that they're still viable raid healers since Flappy Bird isn't necessary in raids.

And yes, this is the topic: *Sorc healers are not viable anymore*. Right there in the title.

Sorc healers are viable, just not necessarily in all content. Although I think that's debatable, because I heal vet dungeons on my sorc and I usually don't use the Flappy Bird unless I'm playing with a low CP/low-skill PUG group. And even when I do use Flappy Bird, I don't really find that it dies all that often without shields in most content. And I always find time to heavy attack to apply IA, so I imagine I'll find time to cast Empowered Ward as well.

I don't like the cast time changes either but I think people are being a little bit melodramatic about it.

BalticBlues

LiquidPony wrote: »

A sorc raid healer can still do plenty of healing with Healing Springs, Combat Prayer, Orbs, Sanguine Altar, and Bogdan.

Sure, but again you are missing the point. Having to play without the Sorc's Matriarch is like having to play without a Templar's BOL. Sure, it somehow works if you are using other means, but what are classes for if their core skills become useless?

Do I really have to remember you about "Healing Prayer"? This Templar skill was useless for years, because of its cast time. Whoever tried using this skill FAILED in heavy environments, so nobody could use it. However, the Templar has a lot of other group healing skills, so it was not hard to refrain from this skill. And after years, FINALLY ZOS acknowledged this and removed the cast time. And suddenly the skill works well and could be used.

For Sorcs, we have this situation: the healing Matriarch is the CORE SKILL for healing groups. It already has ONE cast time making it a risk, and with shields that WORK instantly a Sorc can keep the Matriarch alive. With shields that DO NOT WORK instantly, the Sorc cannot protect the Matriarch enough, and with all the casting downtimes he cannot heal the group enough.

ZOS, after learning over years that the cast time for "Healing Prayer" was a failure, why are you ignoring this experience and cripple the core burst healing skill for Sorcs now with another cast time? Prove us wrong in vet Scalecaller Peak with a Sorc Matriarch healer, but please do not tell us just to use a Templar healer or just use other healing skills because the Matriarch is not functional anymore. Customers expect working skills to enjoy, not dysfunctional skills for failure.

Haashhtaag

BalticBlues wrote: »

"Developer wrote:

Conjured Ward: Keeping the cast time, but not allowing it to be interrupted allows enemies a short window of time to get in burst damage and kill a damage shield user. We’ll continue to monitor feedback closely for this ability throughout this PTS cycle.

Dear Developers, please note that ESO ist more than just PVP!
I am getting the impression that you do not think at all about the consequences for PvE?

Sorc Healers already have a 1.5s cast time for their healing pet, and so already are considered almost too much of a risk for vet DLC Dungeons and Trials. With an extra 1s cast time for Empowered Ward to protect the healing pet, a total of 2.5s cast time to revive and protect a healing pet makes the Sorc Healer dysfunktional by too many casting downtimes.

ZOS, PLEASE do a simple test:
Run vet Scalecaller Peak with a Sorc Healer using his healing Matriarch, now having two cast times. If you manage to do this, I will shup up and admit that even after playing for years since beta I do not understand this game enough. However, if you will probably fail miserably in all the action of this great dungeon, then please admit that another extra cast time is not feasible for Sorc Healers. Thank you!

Pro tip: this came from pve healers not feeling useful.

LiquidPony

BalticBlues wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

A sorc raid healer can still do plenty of healing with Healing Springs, Combat Prayer, Orbs, Sanguine Altar, and Bogdan.

Sure, but again you are missing the point. Having to play without the Sorc's Matriarch is like having to play without a Templar's BOL. Sure, it somehow works if you are using other means, but what are classes for if their core skills become useless?

Do I really have to remember you about "Healing Prayer"? This Templar skill was useless for years, because of its cast time. Whoever tried using this skill FAILED in heavy environments, so nobody could use it. However, the Templar has a lot of other group healing skills, so it was not hard to refrain from this skill. And after years, FINALLY ZOS acknowledged this and removed the cast time. And suddenly the skill works well and could be used.

For Sorcs, we have this situation: the healing Matriarch is the CORE SKILL for healing groups. It already has ONE cast time making it a risk, and with shields that WORK instantly a Sorc can keep the Matriarch alive. With shields that DO NOT WORK instantly, the Sorc cannot protect the Matriarch enough, and with all the casting downtimes he cannot heal the group enough.

ZOS, after learning over years that the cast time for "Healing Prayer" was a failure, why are you ignoring this experience and cripple the core burst healing skill for Sorcs now with another cast time? Prove us wrong in vet Scalecaller Peak with a Sorc Matriarch healer, but please do not tell us just to use a Templar healer or just use other healing skills because the Matriarch is not functional anymore. Customers expect working skills to enjoy, not dysfunctional skills for failure.

I'm not missing the point. I just think you're being hyperbolic. I think you'll still use the Matriarch. I think I'll still play my sorc healer and since I don't use Flappy Bird 90% of the time anyway, it won't really change much for me. Maybe I'll switch from IA to Gossamer or something that grants a damage shield.

But I could be wrong.

Lord_Eomer

LiquidPony wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Sorc healers are still viable as raid healers, at least, as long as another healer is around to provide burst heals since the Matriarch usually isn't necessary (the sorc raid healer is more about HoTs, synergies, utility, and DPS).

Currently its DPS meta hardly healer need to heal and boss die.

Sorc healers are not viable anymore and this class is also weaker in Tanking comparing others. Infact Sorc becoming worst of Healer, Tank and DPS!

A sorc raid healer can still do plenty of healing with Healing Springs, Combat Prayer, Orbs, Sanguine Altar, and Bogdan. But yes, the point of the sorc healer is that they do decent DPS, remove the need of running a magsorc DPS, and provide plenty of group utility.

Almost every class offer more healing skills/utility than Sorcerer and now you are saying to completely rely on Restro, Undaunted Skills and started debate "Sorc are damage dealer and healer at same time"

Most players usually complain on forum about Healers being bad because they are busy dealing damage!

BalticBlues

LiquidPony wrote: »

I'm not missing the point. I just think you're being hyperbolic. I think you'll still use the Matriarch. I think I'll still play my sorc healer and since I don't use Flappy Bird.

You are constantly missing the point, now another time by getting personal. Playing healers of all classes except DKs, with these changes I do not see the Sorc healer viable using the Matriarch. I think I made using the Matriarch crystal clear from post #1, even though it did not explicitly write the word "Matriarch" into the headline. But instead of discussing the topic, you are just proud to tell us that you do not need the Matriarch anyway? So what? If you do not need and do not use the Matriarch anyway, why do you even care posting here? To prove how clever you are and how stupid I am? Thank you.

idk

At this point I think Zos gets the idea their decision was poorly conceived and implemented. I expect they have seen some much better suggestions.

We will see if logic wins over ego or not.

BalticBlues

To finally make a useful suggestion and get back to topic:

If the cast time for Empowered Ward is going to stay, how about giving the Matriarch automatically an Empowered Ward by casting it? This way casting the Matriarch would cost only the longer cast time of 1.5s, as it is now, not an extra cast time of one more sec to also give her an Empowered Ward.

Kerioko

Linked thread to main sorc feedback thread!

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/435648/pts-update-20-feedback-thread-for-sorcerer

Biro123

BalticBlues wrote: »

To finally make a useful suggestion and get back to topic:

If the cast time for Empowered Ward is going to stay, how about giving the Matriarch automatically an Empowered Ward by casting it? This way casting the Matriarch would cost only the longer cast time of 1.5s, as it is now, not an extra cast time of one more sec to also give her an Empowered Ward.

Or maybe casting the pet heal also puts a shield on the pet?

BalticBlues

Darkenarlol wrote: »

my group usually runs in 3dd self sustain setup with emergency big heals from my birdy. [...]i simply removed shields... spammed birdy a little more frequently [...] no shields no dead birds no party deaths caused by dead birds =/

kikkehs wrote: »

I do vSC HM without bird. You don't need healing when everything oneshots anyhow.

Thanks for your feedback. I see you are running with elite teams while I am running with Pugs, so my vSC experience is different. Anyway, I will then try your approaches once the patch arrives:

1. Do not use Shields anymore and instead spam Matriarch heals.
2. Do not use Matriarch anymore and instead do more damage and other healing.

I find it sad that we are now at the point of "not using certain Sorc skills is improving results". IMHO this is not good game design. Introducing cast-times on shields, IMHO ZOS is repeating the failure of the Templar's "Healing Prayer". Elite players probably can cope, average players probably can't.

Drdeath20

Actually kinda a buff for a PVE sorc healer.

Healers are always in the back row. Your 1 second cast time on a much stronger longer lasting shield wont be that noticable once you L2P. Soo sorc healers dont use healing springs, mutagen, barrier, and healing orbs??

Narvuntien

You are forgetting about losing the third bar from overload, completely ruins my sorc healing build, we already lose a slot to having to double bar matriarch and are really reliant on resto staff abilities. I was struggling to find space for the things I wanted to run and then they took away 4 skills away from me.

BalticBlues

Narvuntien wrote: »

You are forgetting about losing the third bar from overload, completely ruins my sorc healing build, we already lose a slot to having to double bar matriarch and are really reliant on resto staff abilities. I was struggling to find space for the things I wanted to run and then they took away 4 skills away from me.

Yes, losing the 3rd bar is another severe problem, ruining many builds. I will try Darkenarlol's no-shield-approach then to play without the crippled shield, using this slot for something lost from the crippled 3rd bar. - It is hard to believe how so many skills of a class can be crippled with just one patch... as a result, the class is crippled...

LiquidPony

BalticBlues wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

I'm not missing the point. I just think you're being hyperbolic. I think you'll still use the Matriarch. I think I'll still play my sorc healer and since I don't use Flappy Bird.

You are constantly missing the point, now another time by getting personal. Playing healers of all classes except DKs, with these changes I do not see the Sorc healer viable using the Matriarch. I think I made using the Matriarch crystal clear from post #1, even though it did not explicitly write the word "Matriarch" into the headline. But instead of discussing the topic, you are just proud to tell us that you do not need the Matriarch anyway? So what? If you do not need and do not use the Matriarch anyway, why do you even care posting here? To prove how clever you are and how stupid I am? Thank you.

In what way was I "getting personal"? Do you not know what hyperbolic means?

I mean you posted a topic saying that sorc healers aren't viable because of the shield changes, and I'm disagreeing. I am discussing the topic. I think sorc healers are still perfectly viable.

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Sorc healers are still viable as raid healers, at least, as long as another healer is around to provide burst heals since the Matriarch usually isn't necessary (the sorc raid healer is more about HoTs, synergies, utility, and DPS).

Currently its DPS meta hardly healer need to heal and boss die.

Sorc healers are not viable anymore and this class is also weaker in Tanking comparing others. Infact Sorc becoming worst of Healer, Tank and DPS!

A sorc raid healer can still do plenty of healing with Healing Springs, Combat Prayer, Orbs, Sanguine Altar, and Bogdan. But yes, the point of the sorc healer is that they do decent DPS, remove the need of running a magsorc DPS, and provide plenty of group utility.

Almost every class offer more healing skills/utility than Sorcerer and now you are saying to completely rely on Restro, Undaunted Skills and started debate "Sorc are damage dealer and healer at same time"

Most players usually complain on forum about Healers being bad because they are busy dealing damage!

@Lord_Dexter my sorc healer relies entirely on resto staff and Undaunted skills anyway? I mean the whole point of my sorc healer is HoTs, buffs, synergies, Minor Prophecy, Minor Intellect, Warhorn, and decent damage.

See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KTzw-Axg5A

And I understand the point being discussed here but I think, for the most part, the Matriarch will be fine for those who use it.

Tonturri

There's an important distinction to make here - between a 'sorc healer' and a 'healer'.

Anyone can throw on a resto staff, undaunted skills and warhorn. That's called using a resto staff, running dungeons and doing some pvp. 'Sorcerer' doesn't factor into that part.

OP's point is that with the changes to shields, sorcerer healers will have to spend even more time casting shields and bringing their pet back up. And if a class's class skills can't even contribute a little to their role, then what's the point of being that class? You might as well have selected 'no class' at the start and then thrown on a resto staff - same end result.