PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer

Jdiam427

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_MattFiror @ZOS_Wrobel

If a Sorc tank has to have a cast time on his/her shield, then it's honestly only fair if all others have the same. Bone Shield, Igneous Shield, Sun Shield, Crystalized Shield.

Please level the playing field.

keeno9881

Also when i played pet sorc i would use my overload bar to get some of the extra skills needed now that this is gone have to start playing pet sorc with 2 bars .I have tried this and used healing ulti but really not enough skill slots on 2 bars since pets need to be on each bar just using one pet i am talking about i never went with 2 pets at a time.I couldnt imagine what the players that did have 2 pets are feeling right now.

Onmari

So.. Just to make sure I understand this correctly...when Murkmire comes out, the sorcerer has no instant damage mitigation skill in their kit, or one that is magicka based? Surely I am just missing it.

wills43b14_ESO

Onmari wrote: »

So.. Just to make sure I understand this correctly...when Murkmire comes out, the sorcerer has no instant damage mitigation skill in their kit, or one that is magicka based? Surely I am just missing it.

Nope, other than ball of lightning for some projectiles... I don't think anyone would agree that is a solution though... all of it is reliant on crit damage (small HoTs, not bursty) or bursty AFTER a cast time (exchange and morphs). There are some methods, if you're okay with tanking your damage even lower.

EDIT: I should clarify you can use the matriarch for a bursty heal, but that has its own host of problems (pet AI, failure to avoid mechanics, easy to die, kills other with boss mechanics, has to be double barred, etc etc etc.)

Massacre_Wurm

Super_Bubus wrote: »

To be honest I don't like playing against a magsorc in BG or Cyro (for the very few times I go there). Why? Because players just brainlessly spam Ward+Harness/Dampen and Overload from their spawn in BG or run around doing the same. Of course it's not all, I've seen others play with Rune Prison which was fine I mean I accept being caught in a hard CC (even before Prison got nerfed) and suffer the burst that results from it. But brainless gameplay I don't.. Lazy players aren't good players.

So using shields is "brainless" ? Looks like dodging or blocking or hit cloak only genius capable for.

Onmari

Thanks for the answer @wills43b14_ESO.

If you set all the in-fighting about pvp, who is a skilled player and who isn't, it boils down to --All classes have an instant shield / heal in their kit but sorcerers will not. It just doesn't make any sense

Frankly, these changes do not seem to be about balance. Because this seems pretty basic. If you asked the general populace who plays a sorcerer on ESO, if they need a immediate shield or heal to play or if they could get by without one, I think the majority are going to want or need one.

In my opinion, these changes will make the sorcerer weak, slow and unfun to play and they only would be doing that if they want to bring on something more attractive (necromancer, anyone?) and to /purchase and play. Perhaps they learned their lesson from the last time when they gutted classes to make the warden attractive. They made the nerfs at the same time they brought the warden out and irked many current players.

It makes more sense then their reasons, right?

wills43b14_ESO

@Onmari

I gave up trying to interpret their ideas. I'm convinced they do not play the game enough to understand the impact, but maybe I'm wrong. I doubt it though. Granted, most of the community was inflamed against sorcs (mainly due to PvP). If you look at the class reps post by Gina you'll see most think the Sorc is actually very powerful, survivable, and sustainable. It was definitely very survivable and had some utility going for it, but that is mostly gone now.

Super_Bubus

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

Super_Bubus wrote: »

To be honest I don't like playing against a magsorc in BG or Cyro (for the very few times I go there). Why? Because players just brainlessly spam Ward+Harness/Dampen and Overload from their spawn in BG or run around doing the same. Of course it's not all, I've seen others play with Rune Prison which was fine I mean I accept being caught in a hard CC (even before Prison got nerfed) and suffer the burst that results from it. But brainless gameplay I don't.. Lazy players aren't good players.

So using shields is "brainless" ? Looks like dodging or blocking or hit cloak only genius capable for.

I didn't say that. What i consider brainless is spamming shields regardless of any damage income while staying at spawn spewing Overload. Idk it seems pretty flat to me.
Don't get me wrong i also don't enjoy "facing" players who cloak 24/7. And as a magblade even if I have the cloak slotted I mostly only use it to proc my Caluurion on my backbar. I don't refuse combat as a NB I want to get my frags as much as anyone. Don't be offended if you spam your shields, I'd do the same if I'm 1vsX trying to survive lol

DCanadianBacon

I've already created a post to discuss a possible solution (and perhaps someone else has already done so in this thread, but I can't be bothered to read 33 pages to find it), but I wanted to post it here to bounce some feedback, because I think most of us are unhappy with ANY cast time on shields.

So, rather than have a cast time at all, why not make these 2 shields (Conjured Ward and Annulment, and their respective morphs) unable to be stacked on top of each other. In other words, if you cast C. Ward first, then cast Annulment, it will replace C. Ward's previously cast effect, and vice versa (apply this to their respective morphs as well). Apparently everyone is complaining about shield stacking Sorcs, so this would help alleviate the issue in PvP, while not punishing other light armor classes who also rely on Annulment for survival.

And while you're at it, make it so both of these shields cannot be stacked with SELF CAST Steadfast Wards (apply this to it's morphs as well).

BUT, if someone else happens to cast Steadfast Ward and it is applied to you, it can still stack with Conjured Ward and/or Annulment. That way, some random PuG or group member won't accidentally overwrite your own shield, and it gives healers more of a purpose as shield appliers for their allies in both PvP and PvE.

One last thing, make it so self cast Annulments can't stack with other self cast shields either, just to make it fair across all classes (and as not to single out Sorcs).

Side Note: Shield stacking with other shields (not including Annulment and it's morphs) isn't really a problem, as most of the other shields in the game are FAR smaller in size compared to C. Ward and Annulment, are attached to long cooldowns, or are infrequent, such as with ultimates like Take Flight. So leave those be.

I believe these changes, in addition to having shields be able to be crit and have resistances applied to them, but NOT have any sort of cast time would be a fair compromise for both PvE and PvP. Perhaps a slight buff to shield size (no more than 5%-10%) to Conjured Ward and Annulment to make up for the complete lack of stacking.

What do you guys think?

Lord-Otto

You're on thin ice with that Caalurion's of yours, Bubus.
Sorcs spam so many shields because they have to. Every other defensive mechanic we had has been nerfed or made so sacrificial that our three shields are the only thing working somewhat reliably.
ZOS now came and simply hit the table with a sledge hammer, not realizing they didn't get a compensation desk to place their meals on. You know, give me a dodgeroll that costs magicka, and I'll happily give you two of my three shields. Give me a magicka class Vigor and you can have one.
Shields were deliberately designed to become a sorc's main defense. ZOS are showing, yet again, a complete lack of understanding for their own game's combar flow.

jknight201

Sigh. Yet another badly thought out change that does nothing but break something that never needed fixing in the first place. Obviously Zos knows best and isn't willing to listen to the community. So... nothing new.

I won't bother repeating all the well thought out arguments for why a cast time for shields is a bad idea. It doesn't solve any of the "problems" that Zos imagines to exist, and it will make classes that rely on shields that now have a cast time to be essentially unplayable in any difficult content.

Obviously Zos hasn't tried the higher vCR difficulties, vAS, vHOF or vMOL HM. Have fun doing those on a mag sorc without a working shield. Have fun running back room vMOL without a shield on a sorc. Could it be done? Maybe. But why would you when Zos broke a basic skill that was class-defining for … no good reason? It's pathetic.

Just one more nail in the coffin.

Super_Bubus

Well yeah I'm on the same side here I don't want any cast time because I play magsorc in PVE aswell and I know why most sorc do spam the shields in PVP and I'm fine with that most times. And god how I'm glad to have my ward when surge can't heal through in vMA. Like I said I'm no PVP hero I'm just trying to share my small exp in BG mostly, which might not be a good way to experience PVP, but eh.

kadar

bardx86 wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

Patch 4.2.1 - Hardened Ward cast time

I tried some intense solo combat against a lot of resource and flag guards in Cyrodiil. I'm losing a lot of fights that I know I can regularly win on live.

The cast time on Hardened Ward is too much. Stopping for what seems like a very long second to lay an egg in the middle of intense solo combat just turns you into a sitting duck. Hardened Ward is now a liability, and without it the whole character will need to be rethought and rebuilt.

I haven't tried it in PvP, but the effect of the cast time must be even worse given the added high mobility and split second reaction times required for PvP combat.

The fighting style that makes Mag Sorc distinct from other classes is going to be impossible to use, except for fighting trash mobs and delve bosses.

IMHO I think that adding cast times to shields is a big mistake.

On live, every pvp build is built to centered around 1-3 shields instant cast shields defensively. It makes sense that the same build on PTS wouldn't work.

The point of the change was to change the way large, cheap shields are used, not to make them weaker. It is for this reason I don't believe zos will respond to the suggested alternatives to the cast time: they all either prevent shield stacking or hurt shield sustain. These are both things the devs are not (at least primarily) trying to do.

Sustain will be hurt in a big way. No longer can shield be used reactively which mean that shield will have to be maintain every sec of play. This will cause an over pay for shields.

Ofc sustain will be hurt. I only said that the dev's primary goal is not to reduce sustain^. I was pointing out that the alternatives that people keep spamming (minor/major system, stacking cost, ect) won't stand out to the devs because these ideas do not accomplish the change the devs are trying to make.

It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation.

Sange13

I wonder if my Sorc will be dead in my roster long enough that I'll end up deleting her to free up the character slot... ?

Tannus15

Honestly if you can get the same dps on any other class it's time to move on from sorc in PvE.
They provide little to no group utility in the current meta. they don't have the highest dps and they don't have the highest survivabilty.
Their AoE isn't powerful enough to make them the "trash clearer" class.

Adernath

This thread has already over 40k views. I bet there will be more people coming to the forums than now asking what the heck is going on as soon as this patch goes live.

Lord-Otto

Super_Bubus wrote: »

Well yeah I'm on the same side here I don't want any cast time because I play magsorc in PVE aswell and I know why most sorc do spam the shields in PVP and I'm fine with that most times. And god how I'm glad to have my ward when surge can't heal through in vMA. Like I said I'm no PVP hero I'm just trying to share my small exp in BG mostly, which might not be a good way to experience PVP, but eh.

Fair enough.

StamWhipCultist

Jdiam427 wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_MattFiror @ZOS_Wrobel

If a Sorc tank has to have a cast time on his/her shield, then it's honestly only fair if all others have the same. Bone Shield, Igneous Shield, Sun Shield, Crystalized Shield.

Please level the playing field.

Sorc got nerfed, better level entire game to the ground...

Sorc tank is a meme anyways, and you advocate all other tanks to be weakened since you cannot think outside box.
BTW, if you are sorc tank, bone shield would provide 20x more benefits to your group that ward.

Bergzorn

premature #1000 attempt

The first shock about the ward cast time is gone, I'm curious how it all will turn out. It's still an absolute stupidity and will render a huge number of light armor builds unplayable because there is barely any compensation.

I'll probably try to destroy Alessia Bridge at least once when the update launches, I hope I can make it that far in cloth without a reliable ward.

By the divines, what were they thinking?

ku5h

wills43b14_ESO wrote: »

I'm honestly surprised these changes have come this far. I'm pretty sure these changes were mostly centered around PvP with little thought to PvE, but let me provide some insight into how the shield cast times will ruin Sorc PvE. Regardless of PvP cries of doom, I think the PvP sorcs, if they convert to heavy and sustain is buffed, will fare okay.... not great, but okay.

You do understand that because of comments like this we got this nerfs. You have no idea what you're talking about.
Right now Sorc have to use 1.5 sustain sets and LA armor passives to have decent sustain. Now you want us to run HA and somehow have better sustain and be buffed on top of that. So much false in one sentence should get you a ban from forums.
edit.-NO it sould get you banned from the game period.

Cronopoly

Guess how many Sorcs toons are going to the bottom of the new list now that we will be able to re-order the character list.

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO

Those last patch new changes to shields do nothing for PvE as interrupting is not the problem there. The problem is that in most cases you have less than 1 second to cast a shield or you are dead.

They totally miss the point for the necessity of shields in PVE:

Magicka based characters have a lot less resistances compared to stamina and therefore take a lot more damage. Also stamina characters have other instant cast defensive abilities such as blade cloak. Also stamina DDs have a lot larger stamina pool to dodge roll and block one shot mechanics compared to magicka.

Also in trials stamina characters are stacked on the boss and constantly focused by healers. Magicka are ranged and get a lot less healing. Just force all stamina DDs to swap positions with magicka DDs and they will be most certainly dead.

These are the main reasons on why we are trying ZOS to change their minds for the shield cast times.

Because do you know what will happen for raid groups that are not part of the elite 10 leaderboards: magicka DDs will just run a backbar restoration staff for instant cast shields. Although their damage will get a bit lower because of that, the healers will be completely removed from most trial configurations and replaced with a bunch of magicka DDs with resto staffs.

Sange13

Cronopoly wrote: »

Guess how many Sorcs toons are going to the bottom of the new list now that we will be able to re-order the character list.

I can tell you there will be at least one...

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO

I just know that only the top leader-boards will be able to complete vAS+2 and vCR+3. My group does 100k+ score in vAS and I know that we will need at least 10 hours of practice to even clear the thing with the shield cast times as a lot of people will be dead and the group will wipe because of that. You cannot just avoid the one shot mechanics there if not casing a shield. If you have a one second of cast time on the shield while someone near you is targeted with the poison cone you are just going to die. Dodge rolling this mechanic also results in insta-deaths in most cases are usually people need to shield and block walk away from the cone. Also people will not be able to cast a shield while kiting the meteors as it will slow their movement and result in a certain death.

As suggested by other members here there are a lot of better alternatives to nerf shields rather than that horrible cast time:

- increase the cost of consecutive shield casts (the same as how streak functions)
- decrease the the shield strength

There are probably more good alternatives, but adding a cast time will kill the PvE trial environment for new players and progression groups. Basically the only groups that will be affected the least are the ones that can do no-death and speed runs which are only a few. This is a horrible idea and hopefully it gets changed or a lot of us will just stop going to trials (there is no point to struggle as a magicka character, better go with a full stamina group now with bow/bow for ranged setups except if you are part of that 0.0001% of the player-base).

Destary

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

I just know that only the top leader-boards will be able to complete vAS+2 and vCR+3. My group does 100k+ score in vAS and I know that we will need at least 10 hours of practice to even clear the thing with the shield cast times as a lot of people will be dead and the group will wipe because of that. You cannot just avoid the one shot mechanics there if not casing a shield. If you have a one second of cast time on the shield while someone near you is targeted with the poison cone you are just going to die. Dodge rolling this mechanic also results in insta-deaths in most cases are usually people need to shield and block walk away from the cone. Also people will not be able to cast a shield while kiting the meteors as it will slow their movement and result in a certain death.

As suggested by other members here there are a lot of better alternatives to nerf shields rather than that horrible cast time:

- increase the cost of consecutive shield casts (the same as how streak functions)
- decrease the the shield strength

There are probably more good alternatives, but adding a cast time will kill the PvE trial environment for new players and progression groups. Basically the only groups that will be affected the least are the ones that can do no-death and speed runs which are only a few. This is a horrible idea and hopefully it gets changed or a lot of us will just stop going to trials (there is no point to struggle as a magicka character, better go with a full stamina group now with bow/bow for ranged setups except if you are part of that 0.0001% of the player-base).

This is a solution for PVE players but not for PVP players. At this time the sorc need to be up. Shields in PVP are useless against oblivion damage, we are the only class who have a counter set so, why nerf shields ?

You proposed to increase the cost of consecutive shields. In PVP you need you shield all second, so you solution is crapy, like ZoS cast time.

You proposed to decrease the shield strength ? Now the meta is full stamina and they can kill you shield in 1 seconde.

So where is your solution ? If it's that, it's just crap and isn't sufficient.

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO

Destary wrote: »

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

I just know that only the top leader-boards will be able to complete vAS+2 and vCR+3. My group does 100k+ score in vAS and I know that we will need at least 10 hours of practice to even clear the thing with the shield cast times as a lot of people will be dead and the group will wipe because of that. You cannot just avoid the one shot mechanics there if not casing a shield. If you have a one second of cast time on the shield while someone near you is targeted with the poison cone you are just going to die. Dodge rolling this mechanic also results in insta-deaths in most cases are usually people need to shield and block walk away from the cone. Also people will not be able to cast a shield while kiting the meteors as it will slow their movement and result in a certain death.

As suggested by other members here there are a lot of better alternatives to nerf shields rather than that horrible cast time:

- increase the cost of consecutive shield casts (the same as how streak functions)
- decrease the the shield strength

There are probably more good alternatives, but adding a cast time will kill the PvE trial environment for new players and progression groups. Basically the only groups that will be affected the least are the ones that can do no-death and speed runs which are only a few. This is a horrible idea and hopefully it gets changed or a lot of us will just stop going to trials (there is no point to struggle as a magicka character, better go with a full stamina group now with bow/bow for ranged setups except if you are part of that 0.0001% of the player-base).

This is a solution for PVE players but not for PVP players. At this time the sorc need to be up. Shields in PVP are useless against oblivion damage, we are the only class who have a counter set so, why nerf shields ?

You proposed to increase the cost of consecutive shields. In PVP you need you shield all second, so you solution is crapy, like ZoS cast time.

You proposed to decrease the shield strength ? Now the meta is full stamina and they can kill you shield in 1 seconde.

So where is your solution ? If it's that, it's just crap and isn't sufficient.

As someone suggested they can make two morphs of the shields: one for PvP and one for PvE (with no cast time). This will make both parties happy.

cokkto

Sange13 wrote: »

Cronopoly wrote: »

Guess how many Sorcs toons are going to the bottom of the new list now that we will be able to re-order the character list.

I can tell you there will be at least one...

I can prove there will be more than two. All PVP/PVE arguments are clearly mentioned and there is nothing to add than this change is simply the mistake. Period.

I'd like to shout for kinda mana character ban if this will go live, but people are free do think themselves. At least, I do quit my manasorc as vet dd/healer until it is yet again viable to play.

There is still a "nevertheless wanna play this trash" opportunity, because manasorc is still possible as manatank with anyway certain limitations (lack of group utility due to sets' selection, incompetent stamina), but focusing on high hp and mana will let them have bone shield (instacast yet), block through ice staff on mainbar, thus save low stamina pool for silver bolt morph and occasional pierce armor (fractures) from S&B backbar. This kind of tank is cool with self-defending utilities, has ranged taunt by default, own healing pet, and ok-ish mana recovery opportunity. I do currently some training runs to check if this build is possible in vet dungeons, but I have strong concerns about vet trials.

If ZOS wants sorc to be new mana tank default char, so let's give them a chance, even if this chance is almost deadborn )

Galarthor

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO wrote: »

As someone suggested they can make two morphs of the shields: one for PvP and one for PvE (with no cast time). This will make both parties happy.

So your solution is to have the cast time, which is only in the game b/c PvE healers apparently have not enough to do, on the PvP morph ... sounds legit.

kind_hero

Remove the cast time for the shield and increase the mana cost, or whatever... 1 second is way to much for how fast the combat is.
How about adding a 1 second cast duration for blocking too?

StamWhipCultist

kind_hero wrote: »

Remove the cast time for the shield and increase the mana cost, or whatever... 1 second is way to much for how fast the combat is.
How about adding a 1 second cast duration for blocking too?

You should be aware that adding such thing would gimp sorcs even more, since then yet another defensive mechanics that sorcs will have to use would be cast timed.