PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer

ZOS_JesC

Greetings, we've removed a few nonconstructive and bashing comments. This is a reminder to please keep comments on topic and constructive, thank you.

maboleth

Guys, I guess it's official - there's no chance for them to roll this back. Cast time is here to stay. They will tweak this or that, but they are 1001% satisfied with cast time idea. Like, thoroughly satisfied.

Devs, I guess me and you are playing different game. At least on the PVP side.

The current state is just terrible - either revert the change or completely redesign the way sorc/light armour work.

Super_Bubus

Well, after first week PTS patch notes I honestly thought the cast time wouldn't last even a week.. I get ZOS want to make their ideas go through live but you need to understand the player's point of view because they play the game daily. And it seems the persons who decided this don't do as much. Also, forcing your way in just because you want your ideas to go live out of some power trip will result in the opposite reaction from your community.

So I'll let a little post (probably useless) of my own to expose why in my humble opinion it is bad, for EVERYONE in the game.

• First, let's talk about PVP. I am not a PVP player and not even a magsorc main but I do main magblade in both PVP and PVE and also play a vast enough variety of classes. And still I honestly think this is very bad, especially for the gameplay's identity. Like the dev said in the latest comment for Ward, it is a fast paced game. The mere consideration of adding cast time to abilities goes against this line of thinking.
However, I do think players should try and play other classes instead of having one character and focus the crap out of it and whine everytime there's a bad change affecting it. Because this game still gives a lot of possibilities and players should try other things. But not because devs force them to.
To be honest I don't like playing against a magsorc in BG or Cyro (for the very few times I go there). Why? Because players just brainlessly spam Ward+Harness/Dampen and Overload from their spawn in BG or run around doing the same. Of course it's not all, I've seen others play with Rune Prison which was fine I mean I accept being caught in a hard CC (even before Prison got nerfed) and suffer the burst that results from it. But brainless gameplay I don't.. Lazy players aren't good players.
So I thought Ward should've been nerfed long time ago but NOT like this. And pushing the duration to 9 and 14 seconds? Why? Have you ever seen a shield last this long in combat?? Most of the time even a 24k shield lasts just 2 to 4 seconds. This is just a way to say "Ok we made this ability useless but not toooo too much so that players don't get too angry". This shows how little time the personS (plural is important) in charge of this spend in the game playing.
And then, you want to do as much with Harness and Dampen? When you face a capable player, a shield isn't "very powerful" like you think. Plus you can't really have a one second gap in your rotation, you either need to burst because you have a window or need to regain resources especially when you're 1vsX. Being proactive won't save you from a gank because everything happen while you're taking your du*p (because yes the animation is also terrible) casting your shield. So there's no opportune times DURING combat. Even if you find the time to place the Ward/Harness/Dampen during combat it won't last.
Making shields critable and forbidding stacking was enough of a nerf on its own. Why would a light armor user go for heavy gears just to try and make their shield stronger considering shields have resistances? It's ridiculous...
If you want players to be proactive with their shields, increase the cost of it. It is punishing enough for someone who spams and it will force them to watch for their resources.
If this goes live then it will be medium armor users turn with Shuffle and Vigor receiving a cast time. And then the whole gameplay will be slowed down because hey why not adding a cast time to every abilities?
Now as I'm not a PVP hero i may have forgotten lots.. But these are my main thoughts.

• Here goes PVE now. And it seems those nerfs only took into account PVP. As I read the devs comments it's only about PVP and shields users being "difficult to kill"... Have you forgotten about PVE and how much this affects PVE players? Once again this is NOT the correct way of nerfing a class and light armor shields. Have you ever tried to go in vMA for the first time with a one second cas time shield? I mean in first few stages it is manageable for a first timer but then I'd be so curious to see one going there and see how he manages ice stage for example. The incoming damages is so high everything can and will kill you in one second, and in every stages. So yes, there's a handful of players who run vMA without a shield and flawless it, but those spend tremendous time there, like over at least hundreds and sometimes thousands of runs. Achieving Flawless Conqueror is already a freaking hard task as it is currently. And yet you want to make it even harder? For light armor users (not vMA thousand runners) this is already very hard to even complete in veteran. And I talk about every light armor classes, because yes surprisingly there are not only magsorcs. Magsorc is/was sorta the "easy" way to go through vMA if you farm it for weapons but to casual players there's no real easy way for it and I personally don't plan on doing thousands of runs before removing my shield from my bar.
But it's not only about vMA, thankfully. In PVE it's almost the same as PVP. Yes damages are more predictable because of the AI but it is still very tough to predict it under pressure when you have to take into account everything. This is valid both in solo and group content. Progressing through veteran trials for players that are not used to the difficulty (not even mentioning players who PUG veteran trials) and can't have the "security" of an instant shield is plainly pointless. If you miss this security, and you will, you put the whole group in a very tight spot and it will result in a wipe, again, and again.
And it's not only about Damage Dealers. I love this game because of all the possibilities it offers to the player. There's no class for one role. Yes one may perform better in specific situations but you can play any role with any class, and THIS is amazing. I have my friend who plays a sorcerer tank and manages it very well in every situations. And guess what? Conjured ward is the main ability there for a sorctank!! IKR?! Add a cast time to it and the tank dies, and then it's chaos around because my tank lost taunt since it's dead. And adding resistances to shields for this particular sorctank is pointless. They don't need resistances on their ward they need an instant 24k security to withstand heavy income damages. I don't know, maybe remove the cast time on one morph and add resistances on this morph, and reduce how much damages it gives and its duration to let people choose between a more defensive approach. And then do the same with Harness/Dampen, rework one of them for a more defensive possibility that will affect both light and heavy users, without this awful cast time. But give them that possibility.
When under pressure there's a moment before receiving the information saying you'll get hit a lot, so a second passed already and then you process to pressing the shield key and another second passes. But it's useless since you're already dead.
Same goes for healers Templars, Sorcs, NB, Wardens. You need to be very on point with your resources and timing to react accordingly. If you miss out on a timing and can't heal your group, everyone is done. Cast time makes this worse. You have to understand not everyone plays PVE content in a guild and not every healer, nor tank, nor dd is a game wizard. And you can't expect them to be like this because it won't happen.

So, same as above. If you want players to actually progress, understand their characters and make the effort to become good, regardless of the class they play (still light armor there obviously), do not add a cast time to shields and try not to be lazy in nerfing abilities doing counter balancing/nerfing here and there to not make it look too terrible. Think this through please, put yourself in the players shoes (both PVP AND PVE). I honestly think increasing the cost of every shields and leaving the crit chance and resistances (or even the interrupt thing since I honestly doubt someone can react fast enough to interrupt a shield cast) in place would be a hundred times better than this but there's still so many things better than a cast time to nerf an ability significantly and you've missed them all.

I truly hope for a better Patch notes next week that goes in line with what ESO gameplay is and should stay as.
Also, this french one is sorry for his english

CritsTheBed

Everytime these terrible ideas get thrown on the pts notes I always think maybe this time they'll listen to the people that pay to play their game because what business doesn't want happy customers to generate revenue? But time and time again that's not how zos operates. Look at the percentage of people saying cast times on shields are a terrible idea. Aside from a few trolls most players know it's a terrible idea.

I play for enjoyment, it's just a job for them, that's the disconnect so I'm done talking about it.

Pack it up boys we lose again. Cancel your subs and stop buying items from the crown store. If they don't care about what eso is for us then don't support what eso is for them.

visionality

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

So, the changes are out, they didn't reverse the cast time nerf, they buffed dark exchange back to what it was, but what I found interesting was...

"Soldier of Anguish: Reduced the healing absorption value to 4800 from 5500, and the healing absorption debuff from this set can no longer stack with itself.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
Damage shields from multiple sources cannot be stacked. We want healing absorption to follow this same ruleset."

Does this mean that the -aim- was to make sure damage shields cant stack, or did they allready -make- it so damage shields couldn't stack, and just didn't tell us?

Thanks for that marble, @Doctordarkspawn, made me laugh. But tbh, it probably just means they dont know their own game. Which would not come as a surprise to anybody lately.

wills43b14_ESO

I'm honestly surprised these changes have come this far. I'm pretty sure these changes were mostly centered around PvP with little thought to PvE, but let me provide some insight into how the shield cast times will ruin Sorc PvE. Regardless of PvP cries of doom, I think the PvP sorcs, if they convert to heavy and sustain is buffed, will fare okay.... not great, but okay.

As for PvE, they actually are doomed. Here's why:


Current Sorc. Weaknesses - if you are familiar with these, feel free to skip:
In PvE sorcs right now are either the second weakest or tied for weakest dps with mag wardens (at least amongst magicka, but I'm pretty sure this applies to stamina sorcs as well even if it doesn't apply to stam wardens); I currently have the highest solo sorc parse in my guild at nearly 44k dps (nearly 46k with an assist and resource synergy; no SPC/olorime though), but most others are pulling 48k+ and often closer to 55k with other classes. There are a few good reasons why sorcs are weaker, namely sorcs do not have a very unique kit anymore for dps other than Liquid Lightning, Cfrags, and the storm atro ult (their execute is weaker in PvE due to the lower % required and LL; LL and atro are a GREAT group benefit, however). Secondly, their sustain is honestly beyond terrible. Without a synergy, heavy attacks are a must just to keep DPS up; throw in any shielding and your sustain is completely gone, further lowering dps. With these parses my minor vulnerability uptime is already 70%+ (90-95% for my force pulse build where I do 40k dps). What this means is minor vuln. scaling for mag sorcs is TERRIBLE in trials. Additionally, sorcs don't benefit much from trap or channeled acceleration (dps loss/no gain on my elemental weapon parses; fp might benefit from this since I run mechanical acuity with 25-27% uptime, but I need to test it still) since I am currently running low crit builds (Mothers sorrow has not done well compared to other sets for me in the past, but I may need to revisit it)... what this means is I am not benefiting from a lot of these buffs other classes rely on, if I can even spare the skill slot in the first place (see the rest of the convo. for reasons why; namely bound aegis and inner light). In many trials where I had to have a shield and self-sustain (vMoL maze, vCR downstairs, vHoF pinnacle factotum upper area, etc.) it simply isn't slottable since I have to double bar bound aegis (I already sacrifice inner light for shield and power/crit surge).

Now everything above about my parses also assumed ideal conditions. Let's factor in that I often cannot stand in one spot often enough for various sets (goodbye Siroria) or stay close enough for zaan (I sacrifice that to let melee stay close while I handle mechanics like meteors from rakkhat, the Mage HM chain lightning, etc.). My dps has now dropped another several thousand probably... it comes close to the original with raid buffs assuming I stay on the same boss the whole time and do not do trial mechanics like the maze in vMoL, upstairs in vHoF, or downstairs in vCR.

PTS induced weaknesses:
One thing I loved about the sorc and I took great pleasure in, even if my dps wasn't nearly as good as the other classes (I did provide a lot of alkosh and dps buffs to others with LL and the storm atro, respectively), was my ability to SURVIVE, namely with a combination of empowered ward and power/crit surge. I was okay with being a weaker class namely for this reason as I loved providing utility (synergies) and doing mechanics no one else wanted to do (because they wanted to parse and pull high numbers on the boss). This made me perfect for handling the aforementioned mechanics like vMoL maze, vHoF upstairs on pinnacle, vCR downstairs, kiting various things, interrupting llothis in vAS +2 (one, if not the only, classes who can do well with a force pulse build as well). With the new cast time of the shield, the Sorc viability has SUBSTANTIALLY diminished... close to 0 in fact. Changing shields to be critable/have resists, not being able to stack, and potentially increasing cost with sequential usage were actually all fine changes by me (as long as the latter was handled appropriately) to balance PvP. In PvE, however, sorcs do not have an instantaneous burst heal: they rely primarily on crit/power surge (remember how I said we are fairly low crit as well? This plays a role here in hp sustain). The thing is, there is a lot of instantaneous, rng damage that cannot be avoided such as vCR orb projectile damage, vCR humanoid boss teleportation on you, meteors in vHRC from Yokeai Kai (fast enough you can't shield and they're dropping tons in a very broken fashion atm), various dots like from Za Maja, multiple mob damage, etc. etc. In vHRC you also have the sehai storm from the warrior, in vMoL the orbs in the maze randomly shift and will just occasionally hit you. In vAS +2... well.... shielding through llothis poison cone while also taking other mechanics that sometimes just can't be avoided (felms bacon strips when both land right beside you while in the cone) all amount to A LOT of FAST-PACED DAMAGE. What this means is I need a burst heal or large, instant shield. Most of these cannot be preemptively shielded through without further compromising my already low dps. Some cannot be shielded at all: sehai storm in vHRC, for instance since you need to block to survive when the shield goes down. Other classes do not have these punishments since they have instant cast heals even if they cannot shield as well as HoTs they use regularly and can apply while the feces hit the fan, so to speak. Furthermore, even with power/crit surge, I have to have something to hit to get heals, which does not happen in some cases like the vMoL maze (ntm if I'm low crit I am not always guaranteed ~1 heal / second...). What this means is casting shields now takes away SIGNIFICANT dps in addition to their SIGNIFICANT resource usage for bad sustain, and I cannot run/block while even trying to use it (vMoL maze requires FAST running, especially on the left side). Many claim (and probably you guys as well given the changes) that dark exchange and morphs will make up for this: the fact is they will not, see above... it is a cast time and will SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER dps and CANNOT be used as a burst heal due to the cast time and inability to block/run in many situations, such as sehai storm or vAS +2 poison cone (this is a significant difference compared to every other class!). This is all assuming I have the bar space to slot it in the first place. One argument is to constantly renew the shield. This will not work either because it further caps our dps (we are some of the weakest) and resources (we struggle some of the most of any class) and sometimes still needs recast. In my experience, crit/power surge does not heal enough to negate bursty damage; I often have to use it in conjunction with a shield to get my hp back up without being bursted down by mechanics. The Matriarch is also not viable due to issues with mechanics and pet AI/mechanics interactions as well as bar slot availability.


What this means:
Sorcs will remain a weaker class and will be shut out due to their inability to pull decent numbers AND survive (most every class can still do this). A lot of melee users have mentioned shields were op regardless, but they have 20% (I think) AOE reduction and higher resists (this brings 20k initial damage down several thousand more for stam than it would magicka), as well as a fairly bursty HoT with an initial heal in the form of vigor. Oftentimes, magicka have to solo portions (maze/vHoF upstairs/vCR downstairs) of trials and take the same extraneous damage that melee users take as well; and we oftentimes have to stand in melee range of the boss too, so we suffer as much as stam many a time and this time without shields. Our 20% AOE reduction and Vigor WERE SHIELDS! Sorcs are no longer a nuke-resistant cockroach, pull some of the lowest numbers, bring little utility to the group other than a synergy or two, and in general just will not be worth playing. It would be one thing if all classes were equally affected and nerfed in terms of ability to self-heal instantly or have to make much more strenuous decisions about what skills they need to survive and simultaneously sacrifice a larger amount of dps (comparatively in both the amount lost and the initial base difference), but they do not have to. Sorcs will ultimately be fairly useless except in some very niche occasions.


My recommendations:
To balance sorcs in PvP, I think it is fair to make shields critable/be based on resists, prevent shield stacking (mainly healing ward, annulment and morphs, and hardened/conjured ward; shields like barrier, igneous, etc. should not count here). This, mainly, will remove the PvP issues without hurting PvE (i.e. do all of that BUT KEEP THE CAST TIME AT 0). You could possibly even create shield exhaustion where each subsequent shield is for less or costs more (make this logarithmic/exponential, respectively; the first 2-3 casts within 4 seconds should be relatively cheap/effective, but subsequent casts should be very expensive or ineffective if you implement this). Furthermore, to bring sorcs dps up to speed, two things can be done:
1. Give some kind of passive or way to increase sustain (possibly a class spammable as well; one suggestion is to move bound aegis into a passive, this frees up a lot of space for other skills and allows for spell symmetry. It could also be combined with dark exchange finally, even if it has a cast time).

2. Give some kind of damage buff. This would ideally be more crit and some other kind of DoT we can utilize (you would need to free up bar space first, see number 1 for examples).

Other possibilities:
If shields remain strong in addition to granting sorcs better sustain and mildly better dps, lower dps is very acceptable because they still have niche roles to play (see aforementioned about synergies and cockroach survivalness/doing all the group mechanics).


I know I will probably get lost in the maelstrom of replies and I don't post on the forums normally, so I probably won't even be looked at. However, I have played a mag sorc (and all of its variations, pet and otherwise) practically since the game came out and have also logged many hours in all trials with him (with many leaderboard runs), so I believe I have some experience and valid insights into the state of the magicka sorc compared to other classes. I hope this view has been informative and if you have any questions, would like clarification, or would like examples of parses, scenarios, etc. please do not hesitate to ask.

Girl_Number8

ezio45 wrote: »

Im going to TRY to be as non toxic as possible with this.....

Conjured Ward:
This ability and its morphs now have a 1-second cast time, previously an instant cast.
Increased the duration of the damage shield for Conjured Ward and the Hardened Ward morph to 9 seconds from 6 seconds.
Empowered Ward (morph): Increased the duration of the damage shield to 14 seconds from 9 seconds.

The increase to 9 seconds is useless shields dont stay up that long in pvp
Likewise the increase to 14 seconds is useless, see above

The cast time is the part i am most "upset" over
- Means you cant case shields back to back
- You cant cast them when your in trouble and have them take effect, compounding the fact that you already could not cast them in the same time frame you were on the attack because of the gcd
- A one second cast time is the same as a hard cast

-You can now deal a Critical Strike against an enemy with a damage shield.
-Your Spell and Physical Resistance now reduces incoming damage before it is applied to your damage shield.
This change makes damage shields function more consistently with the rest of the game’s mechanics. It means that damage shields are more powerful in PvE content since monsters generally don’t reduce armor. Heavy Armor players in particular will receive much more effective damage shields now. This is intended to make damage shields a more potent tools for tanks. We will be monitoring this change closely throughout the PTS cycle and will make adjustments as necessary.
-Poisons and Weapon Enchantments can now proc even if the damage done by the Light Attack, Heavy Attack, or Weapon Ability is fully absorbed by a damage shield.

My shield is 14k out of pvp, thats 7k in pvp, THATS 1 CRIT 1 and there is not a cast time in addition to the gcd were I cant cast a shield

I thought zos was trying to make tanks more kill able in pvp, by adding the resist to shields you have compounded that. Even tho god knows the light armor will need it now

Poisons and enchants procing im fine with, excluding entrap which compounds the easiest counter play against sorc, stuns

THIS PATCH HAS KILLED MAGSORC

There 0 reason to be a magsorc this update, Respectfully as possible I dont need to try this on pts, I have common sense, I know my class


@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_MattFiror @ZOS_Wrobel

This 100%~^ It is clear that Zos and most of the people on the forums don't play the game. It use to be a really fun game when there was build diversity and a better community. Sadly, the toxicity introduced by bad players, streamers that edit their videos so they seem unkillable, and the constant nerf threads on PvP because someone can't handle that they died in a video game is killing eso~ gg

Jdiam427

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_MattFiror @ZOS_Wrobel

If a Sorc tank has to have a cast time on his/her shield, then it's honestly only fair if all others have the same. Bone Shield, Igneous Shield, Sun Shield, Crystalized Shield.

Please level the playing field.

keeno9881

Also when i played pet sorc i would use my overload bar to get some of the extra skills needed now that this is gone have to start playing pet sorc with 2 bars .I have tried this and used healing ulti but really not enough skill slots on 2 bars since pets need to be on each bar just using one pet i am talking about i never went with 2 pets at a time.I couldnt imagine what the players that did have 2 pets are feeling right now.

Onmari

So.. Just to make sure I understand this correctly...when Murkmire comes out, the sorcerer has no instant damage mitigation skill in their kit, or one that is magicka based? Surely I am just missing it.

wills43b14_ESO

Onmari wrote: »

So.. Just to make sure I understand this correctly...when Murkmire comes out, the sorcerer has no instant damage mitigation skill in their kit, or one that is magicka based? Surely I am just missing it.

Nope, other than ball of lightning for some projectiles... I don't think anyone would agree that is a solution though... all of it is reliant on crit damage (small HoTs, not bursty) or bursty AFTER a cast time (exchange and morphs). There are some methods, if you're okay with tanking your damage even lower.

EDIT: I should clarify you can use the matriarch for a bursty heal, but that has its own host of problems (pet AI, failure to avoid mechanics, easy to die, kills other with boss mechanics, has to be double barred, etc etc etc.)

Massacre_Wurm

Super_Bubus wrote: »

To be honest I don't like playing against a magsorc in BG or Cyro (for the very few times I go there). Why? Because players just brainlessly spam Ward+Harness/Dampen and Overload from their spawn in BG or run around doing the same. Of course it's not all, I've seen others play with Rune Prison which was fine I mean I accept being caught in a hard CC (even before Prison got nerfed) and suffer the burst that results from it. But brainless gameplay I don't.. Lazy players aren't good players.

So using shields is "brainless" ? Looks like dodging or blocking or hit cloak only genius capable for.

Onmari

Thanks for the answer @wills43b14_ESO.

If you set all the in-fighting about pvp, who is a skilled player and who isn't, it boils down to --All classes have an instant shield / heal in their kit but sorcerers will not. It just doesn't make any sense

Frankly, these changes do not seem to be about balance. Because this seems pretty basic. If you asked the general populace who plays a sorcerer on ESO, if they need a immediate shield or heal to play or if they could get by without one, I think the majority are going to want or need one.

In my opinion, these changes will make the sorcerer weak, slow and unfun to play and they only would be doing that if they want to bring on something more attractive (necromancer, anyone?) and to /purchase and play. Perhaps they learned their lesson from the last time when they gutted classes to make the warden attractive. They made the nerfs at the same time they brought the warden out and irked many current players.

It makes more sense then their reasons, right?

wills43b14_ESO

@Onmari

I gave up trying to interpret their ideas. I'm convinced they do not play the game enough to understand the impact, but maybe I'm wrong. I doubt it though. Granted, most of the community was inflamed against sorcs (mainly due to PvP). If you look at the class reps post by Gina you'll see most think the Sorc is actually very powerful, survivable, and sustainable. It was definitely very survivable and had some utility going for it, but that is mostly gone now.

Super_Bubus

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

Super_Bubus wrote: »

To be honest I don't like playing against a magsorc in BG or Cyro (for the very few times I go there). Why? Because players just brainlessly spam Ward+Harness/Dampen and Overload from their spawn in BG or run around doing the same. Of course it's not all, I've seen others play with Rune Prison which was fine I mean I accept being caught in a hard CC (even before Prison got nerfed) and suffer the burst that results from it. But brainless gameplay I don't.. Lazy players aren't good players.

So using shields is "brainless" ? Looks like dodging or blocking or hit cloak only genius capable for.

I didn't say that. What i consider brainless is spamming shields regardless of any damage income while staying at spawn spewing Overload. Idk it seems pretty flat to me.
Don't get me wrong i also don't enjoy "facing" players who cloak 24/7. And as a magblade even if I have the cloak slotted I mostly only use it to proc my Caluurion on my backbar. I don't refuse combat as a NB I want to get my frags as much as anyone. Don't be offended if you spam your shields, I'd do the same if I'm 1vsX trying to survive lol

DCanadianBacon

I've already created a post to discuss a possible solution (and perhaps someone else has already done so in this thread, but I can't be bothered to read 33 pages to find it), but I wanted to post it here to bounce some feedback, because I think most of us are unhappy with ANY cast time on shields.

So, rather than have a cast time at all, why not make these 2 shields (Conjured Ward and Annulment, and their respective morphs) unable to be stacked on top of each other. In other words, if you cast C. Ward first, then cast Annulment, it will replace C. Ward's previously cast effect, and vice versa (apply this to their respective morphs as well). Apparently everyone is complaining about shield stacking Sorcs, so this would help alleviate the issue in PvP, while not punishing other light armor classes who also rely on Annulment for survival.

And while you're at it, make it so both of these shields cannot be stacked with SELF CAST Steadfast Wards (apply this to it's morphs as well).

BUT, if someone else happens to cast Steadfast Ward and it is applied to you, it can still stack with Conjured Ward and/or Annulment. That way, some random PuG or group member won't accidentally overwrite your own shield, and it gives healers more of a purpose as shield appliers for their allies in both PvP and PvE.

One last thing, make it so self cast Annulments can't stack with other self cast shields either, just to make it fair across all classes (and as not to single out Sorcs).

Side Note: Shield stacking with other shields (not including Annulment and it's morphs) isn't really a problem, as most of the other shields in the game are FAR smaller in size compared to C. Ward and Annulment, are attached to long cooldowns, or are infrequent, such as with ultimates like Take Flight. So leave those be.

I believe these changes, in addition to having shields be able to be crit and have resistances applied to them, but NOT have any sort of cast time would be a fair compromise for both PvE and PvP. Perhaps a slight buff to shield size (no more than 5%-10%) to Conjured Ward and Annulment to make up for the complete lack of stacking.

What do you guys think?

Lord-Otto

You're on thin ice with that Caalurion's of yours, Bubus.
Sorcs spam so many shields because they have to. Every other defensive mechanic we had has been nerfed or made so sacrificial that our three shields are the only thing working somewhat reliably.
ZOS now came and simply hit the table with a sledge hammer, not realizing they didn't get a compensation desk to place their meals on. You know, give me a dodgeroll that costs magicka, and I'll happily give you two of my three shields. Give me a magicka class Vigor and you can have one.
Shields were deliberately designed to become a sorc's main defense. ZOS are showing, yet again, a complete lack of understanding for their own game's combar flow.

jknight201

Sigh. Yet another badly thought out change that does nothing but break something that never needed fixing in the first place. Obviously Zos knows best and isn't willing to listen to the community. So... nothing new.

I won't bother repeating all the well thought out arguments for why a cast time for shields is a bad idea. It doesn't solve any of the "problems" that Zos imagines to exist, and it will make classes that rely on shields that now have a cast time to be essentially unplayable in any difficult content.

Obviously Zos hasn't tried the higher vCR difficulties, vAS, vHOF or vMOL HM. Have fun doing those on a mag sorc without a working shield. Have fun running back room vMOL without a shield on a sorc. Could it be done? Maybe. But why would you when Zos broke a basic skill that was class-defining for … no good reason? It's pathetic.

Just one more nail in the coffin.

Super_Bubus

Well yeah I'm on the same side here I don't want any cast time because I play magsorc in PVE aswell and I know why most sorc do spam the shields in PVP and I'm fine with that most times. And god how I'm glad to have my ward when surge can't heal through in vMA. Like I said I'm no PVP hero I'm just trying to share my small exp in BG mostly, which might not be a good way to experience PVP, but eh.

kadar

bardx86 wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

Patch 4.2.1 - Hardened Ward cast time

I tried some intense solo combat against a lot of resource and flag guards in Cyrodiil. I'm losing a lot of fights that I know I can regularly win on live.

The cast time on Hardened Ward is too much. Stopping for what seems like a very long second to lay an egg in the middle of intense solo combat just turns you into a sitting duck. Hardened Ward is now a liability, and without it the whole character will need to be rethought and rebuilt.

I haven't tried it in PvP, but the effect of the cast time must be even worse given the added high mobility and split second reaction times required for PvP combat.

The fighting style that makes Mag Sorc distinct from other classes is going to be impossible to use, except for fighting trash mobs and delve bosses.

IMHO I think that adding cast times to shields is a big mistake.

On live, every pvp build is built to centered around 1-3 shields instant cast shields defensively. It makes sense that the same build on PTS wouldn't work.

The point of the change was to change the way large, cheap shields are used, not to make them weaker. It is for this reason I don't believe zos will respond to the suggested alternatives to the cast time: they all either prevent shield stacking or hurt shield sustain. These are both things the devs are not (at least primarily) trying to do.

Sustain will be hurt in a big way. No longer can shield be used reactively which mean that shield will have to be maintain every sec of play. This will cause an over pay for shields.

Ofc sustain will be hurt. I only said that the dev's primary goal is not to reduce sustain^. I was pointing out that the alternatives that people keep spamming (minor/major system, stacking cost, ect) won't stand out to the devs because these ideas do not accomplish the change the devs are trying to make.

It was too easy to throw a bunch of effective health on yourself while making a minimal sacrifice in terms of DPS itemization and rotation.

Sange13

I wonder if my Sorc will be dead in my roster long enough that I'll end up deleting her to free up the character slot... ?

Tannus15

Honestly if you can get the same dps on any other class it's time to move on from sorc in PvE.
They provide little to no group utility in the current meta. they don't have the highest dps and they don't have the highest survivabilty.
Their AoE isn't powerful enough to make them the "trash clearer" class.

Adernath

This thread has already over 40k views. I bet there will be more people coming to the forums than now asking what the heck is going on as soon as this patch goes live.

Lord-Otto

Super_Bubus wrote: »

Well yeah I'm on the same side here I don't want any cast time because I play magsorc in PVE aswell and I know why most sorc do spam the shields in PVP and I'm fine with that most times. And god how I'm glad to have my ward when surge can't heal through in vMA. Like I said I'm no PVP hero I'm just trying to share my small exp in BG mostly, which might not be a good way to experience PVP, but eh.

Fair enough.

StamWhipCultist

Jdiam427 wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_MattFiror @ZOS_Wrobel

If a Sorc tank has to have a cast time on his/her shield, then it's honestly only fair if all others have the same. Bone Shield, Igneous Shield, Sun Shield, Crystalized Shield.

Please level the playing field.

Sorc got nerfed, better level entire game to the ground...

Sorc tank is a meme anyways, and you advocate all other tanks to be weakened since you cannot think outside box.
BTW, if you are sorc tank, bone shield would provide 20x more benefits to your group that ward.

Bergzorn

premature #1000 attempt

The first shock about the ward cast time is gone, I'm curious how it all will turn out. It's still an absolute stupidity and will render a huge number of light armor builds unplayable because there is barely any compensation.

I'll probably try to destroy Alessia Bridge at least once when the update launches, I hope I can make it that far in cloth without a reliable ward.

By the divines, what were they thinking?

ku5h

wills43b14_ESO wrote: »

I'm honestly surprised these changes have come this far. I'm pretty sure these changes were mostly centered around PvP with little thought to PvE, but let me provide some insight into how the shield cast times will ruin Sorc PvE. Regardless of PvP cries of doom, I think the PvP sorcs, if they convert to heavy and sustain is buffed, will fare okay.... not great, but okay.

You do understand that because of comments like this we got this nerfs. You have no idea what you're talking about.
Right now Sorc have to use 1.5 sustain sets and LA armor passives to have decent sustain. Now you want us to run HA and somehow have better sustain and be buffed on top of that. So much false in one sentence should get you a ban from forums.
edit.-NO it sould get you banned from the game period.

Cronopoly

Guess how many Sorcs toons are going to the bottom of the new list now that we will be able to re-order the character list.

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO

Those last patch new changes to shields do nothing for PvE as interrupting is not the problem there. The problem is that in most cases you have less than 1 second to cast a shield or you are dead.

They totally miss the point for the necessity of shields in PVE:

Magicka based characters have a lot less resistances compared to stamina and therefore take a lot more damage. Also stamina characters have other instant cast defensive abilities such as blade cloak. Also stamina DDs have a lot larger stamina pool to dodge roll and block one shot mechanics compared to magicka.

Also in trials stamina characters are stacked on the boss and constantly focused by healers. Magicka are ranged and get a lot less healing. Just force all stamina DDs to swap positions with magicka DDs and they will be most certainly dead.

These are the main reasons on why we are trying ZOS to change their minds for the shield cast times.

Because do you know what will happen for raid groups that are not part of the elite 10 leaderboards: magicka DDs will just run a backbar restoration staff for instant cast shields. Although their damage will get a bit lower because of that, the healers will be completely removed from most trial configurations and replaced with a bunch of magicka DDs with resto staffs.

Sange13

Cronopoly wrote: »

Guess how many Sorcs toons are going to the bottom of the new list now that we will be able to re-order the character list.

I can tell you there will be at least one...