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Sloads..................
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Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ever thought that a single dummy test might not be super representative for actual PvP performance?
If it is not super representative for actual PvP performance then that's because in actual PvP it would have even less uptime(on average, of course. I'm sure you can find a log where the uptime is 100%). So it is representative of the "upper" end, of what's possible if your target just passively stands there.And it is not just average performance which matter. Just the chance of turing a single light attack which hits for maybe 1k into 10k+ dmg from procs is stupid. It can make the most easiest and trivial actions way too dangerous. Sets which gives raw stats can't do that.
Sure, but that's the nature of this game. Proc sets are part of it, and a single light attack can result in huge damage, be it selene, skoria or sload. And (usually) the lower the proc chance, the higher the damage.Edited by Sharee on July 18, 2018 12:56PM0 -
King_Thelon✭✭✭✭✭It's the nature of the game because young zerglings need crutches, and defend them to the end on the forums.2 -
Extinct_Solo_Player✭✭✭✭✭Honestly, at this point i don't give a flying fart about how entitled 1vx-ers think the game should be shaped around their needs.
Then why do you think people should care what you think since it just seems like we need to show a picture for you to tell us where the msorc touched you.2 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
I would rather sloads not be so easy to proc. It does a load of unmitigatable dmg in a short timespan. If you have burst ready and the target is defiled, a sload proc will make that target ripe for a kill. Especially so in xv1. In 1v1 it can be managed. So what ZOS needs to do it add more conditions to the set in order for it to proc, similar to overwhelming surge. Overwhelming is powerful as well, but balanced because of how it is designed. Sloads is literally designed for no brain zergling light attack spam. It is DUMB design. Period. End of story.
Sloads uptime in pvp is a lot higher than 50% with dots and weaving, so it will end up doing more damage than viper, even over a prolonged period of time. If your sload uptime is lower than 50% you are doing it wrong.
Honestly, the only thing I can say to this is: LMFAO.SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »If my stamina DK can be affected by multiple vipers ticking for ~800 each, i don't see why a sorc should not be affected by multiple sloads ticking for ~800 each.
Having a shield does not make one special.
The difference is that Sload's is irresistible. There's nothing whatsoever you can do about it but die if too much gets stacked onto you. Resistible damage is categorically different from a design perspective. One can choose to invest in resistance strategies to mitigate it. It takes MUCH more of that kind of damage for death to become inevitable. Making those mitigation investments (shields or armor or defensive buffs or CP or whatever) comes at a cost, making it balanced and acceptable that such damage can stack. You can either acknowledge the objective difference or you can play denial games. The facts won't change: these two things are different and nobody benefits from pretending that they are the same when they obviously aren't.
So distilled down, your argument is that sload's damage can not be lessened by investing into resistance.
To this, i reply: Sload hits for roughly the same as viper *after* resistances have been taken into account for viper.
In other words, the "resistance" to sload is already built-in into the base damage of the ability.
If viper/sheer venom are hitting for the same on you, lets say about 800, that means you literally have 0 resistance and damage reduction. 6400 damage over 4 seconds --> 6400/4 = 1600, divided by 2 (battlespirit) = 800. After that, stuff like maim, protection and resistances come into mind. On any normal and competent target using buffs and debuffs and has good resistance, viper dot will hit for like 350-400 max. Sloads hits at least 2 times as hard. You are just so wrong, my eyes are bleeding.
My bad. I should have made it more clear i was talking about overall damage output, not necessarily damage per tick.
Viper has a 100% proc rate, sload only 10%, which makes up for the damage difference.
Also, this point is irrelevant in the context of pvp, because pvp is not about dps over a prolonged period of time. It is about applying pressure and timed burst. And the reality is that sloads is providing a LOT more pressure in a short timespan and synergizes a lot better with defile and burst combo's because of that. Viper isn't bad on builds focussed around proccing skoria for example, but sloads is more lethal on its own. By far.
TBH, the whole argument stemmed from "sload should not stack because it ignores defenses". My point was, "if other dots stack, there is no reason for sload not to, because the important thing is not whether something ignores defenses, but how much damage it does in the end."
I used viper in the argument, but i could just as easily used poison injection. So the actual damage of the "normal DOT" is besides the point. "But viper will do 10% less damage" is irrelevant, what is relevant is that if my stamina character can have multiple DOTs stacked on him that eat away at his health bar, then so can a sorcerer. Having a shield does not make one a special snowflake.Edited by Koensol on July 18, 2018 3:23PM4 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@Feanor has it right. It’s not Sload’s alone, but the synergy between Sload’s and certain mechanics, particularly defile and other proc sets, that makes it broken. When you then combine those mechanics with multiple Sload procs you end up with a situation where there’s no reasonable counterplay2 -
Rittings✭✭✭✭✭
✭Unkillable characters are perhaps more of a hinderance... I like to see Sload's used on tanks etc... it's funny to watch these perma-blockers get their comeuppance lol.
Maybe if the set could somehow do tiered damage. More to heavy armor users etc.. or more when damage shields are applied etc.1 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Unkillable characters are perhaps more of a hinderance... I like to see Sload's used on tanks etc... it's funny to watch these perma-blockers get their comeuppance lol.
Maybe if the set could somehow do tiered damage. More to heavy armor users etc.. or more when damage shields are applied etc.
The available counters to these builds are already numerous. Literally just walking away is enough to make them drop block, never mind CCs that go through block.2 -
umagon✭✭✭✭✭Unkillable characters are perhaps more of a hinderance... I like to see Sload's used on tanks etc... it's funny to watch these perma-blockers get their comeuppance lol.
Maybe if the set could somehow do tiered damage. More to heavy armor users etc.. or more when damage shields are applied etc.
Conditional mechanics would be the best way to handle counter play in sets. If zos want to introduce a set that counters high health and/or high resilience targets then those should be the parameters used for the set. Things like sloads effect every build not just tanks or builds with shields.
Shields just need to be changed to scale off of health using a system with hard floor and ceiling values. For example, if the health value is 20k or less then the shields scale at 60%; if the health is greater than 20k then the shields scale at 30%. Then set conditions where the shield could never be smaller than X or greater than Y; that way they do not be come useless but at the same time there aren’t situations where people are stacking 38k health with ~40k stam/magicka and becoming nearly unkillable.
What this would do force players to have to choose between having damage output or survivability. The duration of the shields would have to be longer to compensate for the change.
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Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭[...] but at the same time there aren’t situations where people are stacking 38k health with ~40k stam/magicka and becoming nearly unkillable. [...]
Please show me that build.
Also, what stops me from staying at 19,990 health and having far higher shields than someone with 20,001? Don't like that idea.Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on July 18, 2018 8:58PM0 -
umagon✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »[...] but at the same time there aren’t situations where people are stacking 38k health with ~40k stam/magicka and becoming nearly unkillable. [...]
Please show me that build.
Also, what stops me from staying at 19,990 health and having far higher shields than someone with 20,001? Don't like that idea.
It’s not one build it is a series of builds in what I call my titanblade series. The first variant I run on live the second I can only run in pts because I do not have what I need to build it on live. Those values are based on the second variant. I cant get to 40k health 40k stam because I cant gold the ring and neck set but, it should hit 40k/40k when I have the gold versions.
The example I gave was just that an example, a talking point to go from not something that should go into the game immediately. But to your question it could be handled with added conditions. The point is to better tailor the skills to an exact function with control not allowing them to scale in power linearly; which is the problem with shields. I am not going talk about any more because it’s getting off topic.
Edited by umagon on July 18, 2018 10:14PM1 -
Maryal✭✭✭✭✭
✭Unkillable characters are perhaps more of a hinderance... I like to see Sload's used on tanks etc... it's funny to watch these perma-blockers get their comeuppance lol.
Maybe if the set could somehow do tiered damage. More to heavy armor users etc.. or more when damage shields are applied etc.
Conditional mechanics would be the best way to handle counter play in sets. If zos want to introduce a set that counters high health and/or high resilience targets then those should be the parameters used for the set. Things like sloads effect every build not just tanks or builds with shields.
Shields just need to be changed to scale off of health using a system with hard floor and ceiling values. For example, if the health value is 20k or less then the shields scale at 60%; if the health is greater than 20k then the shields scale at 30%. Then set conditions where the shield could never be smaller than X or greater than Y; that way they do not be come useless but at the same time there aren’t situations where people are stacking 38k health with ~40k stam/magicka and becoming nearly unkillable.
What this would do force players to have to choose between having damage output or survivability. The duration of the shields would have to be longer to compensate for the change.
But .... it's not just high health 'builds' or 'shield stackers' that's the problem ... it's also things like Troll King, high health regen builds (even if their max hp isn't all that high), as well as things that temporarily boost your health regen like major vitality (there are multiple ways major vitality can be obtained, so much so that it can be maintained fairly consistently). Combine this with the fact that major defile has (mostly) been reduced to 4 seconds ... well ... do I really need to spell it out?
Edited by Maryal on July 18, 2018 10:27PM0 -
Ralamil✭✭✭✭But .... it's not just high health 'builds' or 'shield stackers' that's the problem ... it's also things like Troll King, high health regen builds (even if their max hp isn't all that high), as well as things that temporarily boost your health regen like major vitality (there are multiple ways major vitality can be obtained, so much so that it can be maintained fairly consistently). Combine this with the fact that major defile has (mostly) been reduced to 4 seconds ... well ... do I really need to spell it out?
Sloads is not the solution to those problems. I mean, yes, technically it does help against builds that stack heavy into those sorts of things, but it is grossly more effective on enemies who actually build to do damage.
The simple fact is that Sloads is currently suffering from several acknowledged bugs, stacks, and offers arguably the most effective damage type for the least amount of work. I have no idea what in the *** Wrobel (or whomever) thought when designing this set. But what this set really accomplishes is removing any sense of needing to have skill to perform. It's the worst kind of crutch - one that you bludgeon others with.Karn Wild-Blood - PC NA AD Nord Warden2 -
DTStormfox✭✭✭✭✭In my opinion, they should get rid of damage proc sets overall (maybe with the exception of undaunted monster helm sets).
Free damage sets are just for "I have no idea what I am doing" kind of players. They have no experience and can win from any experienced player, just by running the correct free damage sets. The game is made way too easy with these kinds of sets in place. I could give a 5-year-old the controls and he would still win from the average player running free damage sets.
It would solve all the problems that are caused by sets like Viper in the old days and Sload's today. The nerf they apply with next patch is just a joke to keep us (the dedicated and experienced players) from leaving the game. It is a hygiene factor to take away some displeasure, but as with all hygiene factors they are only a temporary fix to the displeasure.2 -
Galarthor✭✭✭✭✭
✭They stated that Sloads is meant as a counter to the Heavy Armor tank meta ... yet it hurts Light Armor and Medium Armor with less HP far more. Really great design!
Well at least the Medium Armor guys with their capability to continously dodge will be happy coming the next update. That basically only leaves the Light Armor builds that are getting screwed by Sloads as Heavy Armor builds got plenty of HP and decent heal, while they take little damage from other sources.
Great a set designed to hurt heavy armor tanks essentially will only really hurt the complete opposite: squishy light armor builds. If ZOS was to creat rain coats meant to keep you dry their coats would suck up moisture like a sponge directly transfering it onto you and ensuring you will be wet even on dry days due to air moisture.2 -
Ralamil✭✭✭✭They stated that Sloads is meant as a counter to the Heavy Armor tank meta ... yet it hurts Light Armor and Medium Armor with less HP far more. Really great design!
Well, that's Wrobel for you. He gets absolutely giddy at the prospect of proc sets and just churns out the sloppiest crap to further that odd love of his.
Next I'm predicting a set with a 50% chance on dealing damage to instantly kill your opponent outright. Because that's encouraging skillful gameplay, right? ... Right?
I mean... granted, idk what data they have available and how much stress it would put on the server to make the determinations... but ***, if you wanna counter heavy armor just have something do damage that scales up depending on the number of heavy armor pieces the enemy is wearing. Boom. Provides a counter for heavy armor, but gives you a tactical choice since it's less useful against people who wear light or medium armor.Karn Wild-Blood - PC NA AD Nord Warden0 -
IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hurr hurr Sload's was meant to be a tank killer hurr hurr. Even though Knight Slayer probably does a better job. Their *** for hating tanks are showing tbh.Edited by IZZEFlameLash on July 24, 2018 1:53AMImperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel2 -
Lexxypwns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DTStormfox wrote: »In my opinion, they should get rid of damage proc sets overall (maybe with the exception of undaunted monster helm sets).
Free damage sets are just for "I have no idea what I am doing" kind of players. They have no experience and can win from any experienced player, just by running the correct free damage sets. The game is made way too easy with these kinds of sets in place. I could give a 5-year-old the controls and he would still win from the average player running free damage sets.
It would solve all the problems that are caused by sets like Viper in the old days and Sload's today. The nerf they apply with next patch is just a joke to keep us (the dedicated and experienced players) from leaving the game. It is a hygiene factor to take away some displeasure, but as with all hygiene factors they are only a temporary fix to the displeasure.
Actually, not wearing a damage proc set is much more clear sign of not knowing how to play than wearing one is.
I don’t think there’s any valid arguement that intentionally gimping yourself to maintain some self-proclaimed moral high ground is more indicative of intelligent decision making or skill than building the most effective possible build.
Also, dying to someone just because they’re wearing a damage proc set is a strawman. We’re talking about a 10% or less difference in overall performance which means if they’re killing you they should logically be within 10% of your skill level.Edited by Lexxypwns on July 24, 2018 3:59AM5 -
Kelces✭✭✭✭✭DTStormfox wrote: »In my opinion, they should get rid of damage proc sets overall (maybe with the exception of undaunted monster helm sets).
Free damage sets are just for "I have no idea what I am doing" kind of players. They have no experience and can win from any experienced player, just by running the correct free damage sets. The game is made way too easy with these kinds of sets in place. I could give a 5-year-old the controls and he would still win from the average player running free damage sets.
It would solve all the problems that are caused by sets like Viper in the old days and Sload's today. The nerf they apply with next patch is just a joke to keep us (the dedicated and experienced players) from leaving the game. It is a hygiene factor to take away some displeasure, but as with all hygiene factors they are only a temporary fix to the displeasure.
Actually, not wearing a damage proc set is much more clear sign of not knowing how to play than wearing one is.
I don’t think there’s any valid arguement that intentionally gimping yourself to maintain some self-proclaimed moral high ground is more indicative of intelligent decision making or skill than building the most effective possible build.
Also, dying to someone just because they’re wearing a damage proc set is a strawman. We’re talking about a 10% or less difference in overall performance which means if they’re killing you they should logically be within 10% of your skill level.
Indeed, just another way of saying, what I did for a long time: Remove all set bonus in general to avoid such stupid discussions and have done with it, or leave sets as they are from the start. It only takes one opportunist and the rest has to follow in order to be even remotely competitive.Next I'm predicting a set with a 50% chance on dealing damage to instantly kill your opponent outright. Because that's encouraging skillful gameplay, right? ... Right?
Curious, there is already something that does something similar, only without any chance involved, it's called Coldharbour Balista. Nobody seems to be complaining about that interestingly. And how long does this exist, and still no outrage?
Yes, "skillful" gameplay by mostly high ranking players, shooting almost instant-kill bolts. People who are supposed to have some experience to know how to do things, do stuff like this. Great achievement...Edited by Kelces on July 24, 2018 4:48AMYou reveal yourself best in how you play.
Kelces - Argonian Templar
Farel Donvu - Dark Elf Sorcerer
Navam Llervu - Dark Elf Dragonknight
Aniseth - Wood Elf Warden
Therediel - Wood Elf Templar
Nilonwy - Wood Elf Nightblade
Jurupari - Argonian Warden
Kú-Chulainn - Argonian Sorcerer
PC - EU
For the Pact!2 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DTStormfox wrote: »In my opinion, they should get rid of damage proc sets overall (maybe with the exception of undaunted monster helm sets).
Free damage sets are just for "I have no idea what I am doing" kind of players. They have no experience and can win from any experienced player, just by running the correct free damage sets. The game is made way too easy with these kinds of sets in place. I could give a 5-year-old the controls and he would still win from the average player running free damage sets.
It would solve all the problems that are caused by sets like Viper in the old days and Sload's today. The nerf they apply with next patch is just a joke to keep us (the dedicated and experienced players) from leaving the game. It is a hygiene factor to take away some displeasure, but as with all hygiene factors they are only a temporary fix to the displeasure.
I regret that I don't seek attention because I would gladly show you how proc sets work for inexperienced players. I kill them, they try to use zaan, then sload, then add skoria, they still die. Those set can change an outcome of a fight for players with smiliar skill level, but rookie even when using everything they have will still die to exp. Period. If you think otherwise it means you're not as high above average than you think.Say no to Toxic Casuals!
I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.
"Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge3 -
Ralamil✭✭✭✭I don’t think there’s any valid arguement that intentionally gimping yourself to maintain some self-proclaimed moral high ground is more indicative of intelligent decision making or skill than building the most effective possible build.
I think for a lot of people, it's less of a "moral high ground" and more of an "I don't want to wear something that's actively bad for the health of the game" kinda mentality. It's not that I think I'm better than someone because I DON'T wear Sloads, it's that I think it's a terribly designed set that is ruining, at the very least, battlegrounds.Curious, there is already something that does something similar, only without any chance involved, it's called Coldharbour Balista. Nobody seems to be complaining about that interestingly. And how long does this exist, and still no outrage?
Yes, "skillful" gameplay by mostly high ranking players, shooting almost instant-kill bolts. People who are supposed to have some experience to know how to do things, do stuff like this. Great achievement...
I primarily do group play in Cyrodiil, so siege is less of an issue for me, and far from a guarantee of an insta-kill. Not really a useful apples-to-apples comparison between siege and a broken set, for the purposes of this thread, imo.
That being said, I do actually agree with your sentiment, and I think ZOS doesn't know what the hell they're doing with siege lately. As usual, they're not really doing much of anything to help the less-coordinated masses against the more notable, dedicated PvP guilds, they're just making it so that said PvP guilds need to resort to this kinda *** gameplay to compete with one another, and in the process have an even easier time mowing over less coordinated and/or newer players. But siege is really better left for a different topic since, again, I don't think it's quite comparable to the discussion of proc sets.Karn Wild-Blood - PC NA AD Nord Warden0 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Lexxypwns
So a Caluurion proc on top of Incap with a weaved SA that kills a LA target out of stealth is indicative of skill?Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard StamplarAll chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.1 -
Rianai✭✭✭✭✭
✭Also, dying to someone just because they’re wearing a damage proc set is a strawman. We’re talking about a 10% or less difference in overall performance which means if they’re killing you they should logically be within 10% of your skill level.
Procs can make way more than a 10% difference. And the worse the player, the more impact procs will have. I had fights where more than 50% of dmg taken was from procs. No raw stats will ever provide those players with similar dmg.1 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Also, dying to someone just because they’re wearing a damage proc set is a strawman. We’re talking about a 10% or less difference in overall performance which means if they’re killing you they should logically be within 10% of your skill level.
Procs can make way more than a 10% difference. And the worse the player, the more impact procs will have. I had fights where more than 50% of dmg taken was from procs. No raw stats will ever provide those players with similar dmg.
That’s a lot of proc eating there.
I’ve come across 2 different guys at different times using procs on resource flags. One I absolutely destroyed and laughed as I saw Sloads tick on me. Another I got absolutely destroyed because I came in fast and he saw me coming and knew what to do. Pretty much ate a dawnbreaker, heavy attack and caluurion's as soon as I gap closed. I should have known better.Edited by technohic on July 24, 2018 1:01PM2 -
worsttankever✭✭✭JPcrazysquirrel3 wrote: »Upon Summerset release on console, I tried to tell people in my PvP guilds to not get too heavily invested in running Sloads, because it's had a nerf cloud hovering over it since PC release, and even PTS.
But what did they do? "Hurr hurr, Sloads kills stuff with minimal skill and effort on my part!"
...I don't associate with those players anymore,...even though they're in my alliance.
One of the Guild leaders for a PvP guild I’m in wants us all to run Sloads. Like it was a genius idea he had.
I won’t be able to hang if the guild goes that way.Men are but flesh and blood. They know their doom, but not the hour.1 -
King_Thelon✭✭✭✭✭There are players far better than you who refuse to wear Sloads out of principle. With the days of relevance in ESO PvP long behind us, some would rather go out with their integrity intact.0
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DTStormfox✭✭✭✭✭I regret that I don't seek attention because I would gladly show you how proc sets work for inexperienced players. I kill them, they try to use zaan, then sload, then add skoria, they still die. Those set can change an outcome of a fight for players with smiliar skill level, but rookie even when using everything they have will still die to exp. Period. If you think otherwise it means you're not as high above average than you think.
Let me clarify that I do not see myself as an 'above average' player.
Let me give you an example. In BG's there are people (especially pre-made groups) running only Sload's, Viper, Skoria and similar free damage sets. They completely dominate BG's, it doesn't matter how skilled a player is if they implode from free damage sets before they can respond. And since these free damage sets do not care about what class you play, these ARE sets for players who have no idea what they are doing. Sure they know how to exploit the most overpowered sets in the game, but remove free damage sets and DPS will drop by at least 20% for most players. I would like to refer to the video "About that incoming Sloads "nerf" by Alcast: https://youtube.com/watch?v=xYwEYQspgmA
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Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
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Standing at the pearly gates, everything looks good, you were kind, you did onto others, you saved that baby, oh, wait, looks like you wore sloads for a couple months, I'm going to have to call over my supervisor.King_Thelon wrote: »There are players far better than you who refuse to wear Sloads out of principle. With the days of relevance in ESO PvP long behind us, some would rather go out with their integrity intact.Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA4 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
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Standing at the pearly gates, everything looks good, you were kind, you did onto others, you saved that baby, oh, wait, looks like you wore sloads for a couple months, I'm going to have to call over my supervisor.King_Thelon wrote: »There are players far better than you who refuse to wear Sloads out of principle. With the days of relevance in ESO PvP long behind us, some would rather go out with their integrity intact.
lmao0
