Sloads..................

Jaxaxo

Sharee wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

The whole point i was trying to make is, sload's oblivion nature is a complete non-factor for my stam DK ... As far as i am concerned, it's just an average DOT.

Well, good for you. Here we come to the crux of where your argument fails. You're entirely self-centered and only focused on your class.

It has nothing to do with my class. My argument is that unless you use shields(like my stam DK, but that's just an example), sload is just an average-damage DOT that wouldn't raise any eyebrows if it did not penetrate shields.

I suspect most of ppl think about Sload in matters of CP campagin. I would like to remind u that there is pretty popular (at least on PC EU) nonCP campaign, in which Sload is overperforming much much more. Same in BGs. Unmitigable oblivion dot set with high uptime and one of the biggest dmg.

Gnozo

Sharee wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Did i said bleed is fine?

You acted like having sload on you is the end of the world, when in fact it is nothing special (see: bleeds).

But it is. Sloads completly negates my vigor healing. And it can applied really really easily. It procs on every Damage so you can hide on a keep wall or behind a zerg doing lightning heavy attacks and put sloads on me. Wich is kind of a death sentence in Most case.

Effort to put sloads proc on me: Holding left click
Cost to put on sloads: Nothing, you even get magicka back in my given example.
Risk to put it on me: with the range heavy attack Not a really big risk cause you can hide on keep wall or behind other players.

Effort to put bleeding on me: heavy attack from axes or twin slashes
Cost to put bleed: 1.2k stam for twin slashes, free stam from heavy attack
Risk to put bleeding: You need to come melee and the ways to put bleeding on can be dodged.

So ofc bleeding is indeed broken but it takes more to put it on your Opponent and also the risk is higher. Where sloads just procs in Everything.

So you defending sloads cause bleeding is also broken? What type of mentality is this.

Sharee

Gnozo wrote: »

Effort to put bleeding on me: heavy attack from axes or twin slashes

Actually, any kind of melee attack will do. It has to be melee (not any like sload) but then it has a higher chance to proc(with 2 axes or 2H one), and does not require the sacrifice of a 5-piece set bonus(this is the "cost" of sload you forgot about).

Gnozo wrote: »

So you defending sloads cause bleeding is also broken? What type of mentality is this.

No. I'm telling you that with bleeds(and other dots etc.) around, sload is nothing special for a stam build. It hurts, sure. So do other things. It puts a drain on your healing, sure. So does any other damage.

Gnozo

Sharee wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Effort to put bleeding on me: heavy attack from axes or twin slashes

Actually, any kind of melee attack will do. It has to be melee (not any like sload) but then it has a higher chance to proc(with 2 axes or 2H one), and does not require the sacrifice of a 5-piece set bonus(this is the "cost" of sload you forgot about).

Gnozo wrote: »

So you defending sloads cause bleeding is also broken? What type of mentality is this.

No. I'm telling you that with bleeds(and other dots etc.) around, sload is nothing special for a stam build. It hurts, sure. So do other things. It puts a drain on your healing, sure. So does any other damage.

As far as i remember axes are needed to proc bleeding. I dont think you can proc it with swords.

So you need duel wield axes or 2h axes. No bleeding on bow or sword and board. So to proc bleeding you need to have certain weapons and skills slottet wich reduces your build diversity.

And sloads can work on every build. No restrictions needed.

Sharee

Jaxaxo wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

The whole point i was trying to make is, sload's oblivion nature is a complete non-factor for my stam DK ... As far as i am concerned, it's just an average DOT.

Well, good for you. Here we come to the crux of where your argument fails. You're entirely self-centered and only focused on your class.

It has nothing to do with my class. My argument is that unless you use shields(like my stam DK, but that's just an example), sload is just an average-damage DOT that wouldn't raise any eyebrows if it did not penetrate shields.

I suspect most of ppl think about Sload in matters of CP campagin. I would like to remind u that there is pretty popular (at least on PC EU) nonCP campaign, in which Sload is overperforming much much more. Same in BGs. Unmitigable oblivion dot set with high uptime and one of the biggest dmg.

I understand your argument about sload (since the damage is fixed, it is proportionally much more dangerous in no-CP), but honestly, i think non-CP is such a mess that it can't be salvaged anymore, and not just because of sload.

Sharee

Gnozo wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Effort to put bleeding on me: heavy attack from axes or twin slashes

Actually, any kind of melee attack will do. It has to be melee (not any like sload) but then it has a higher chance to proc(with 2 axes or 2H one), and does not require the sacrifice of a 5-piece set bonus(this is the "cost" of sload you forgot about).

Gnozo wrote: »

So you defending sloads cause bleeding is also broken? What type of mentality is this.

No. I'm telling you that with bleeds(and other dots etc.) around, sload is nothing special for a stam build. It hurts, sure. So do other things. It puts a drain on your healing, sure. So does any other damage.

As far as i remember axes are needed to proc bleeding. I dont think you can proc it with swords.

So you need duel wield axes or 2h axes. No bleeding on bow or sword and board. So to proc bleeding you need to have certain weapons and skills slottet wich reduces your build diversity.

And sloads can work on every build. No restrictions needed.

So having to use axes(a specific weapon type) for bleeds reduces your build diversity, while having to wear sload(a specific set) for the proc doesn't.

Gotta love the logic.

Jaxaxo

Sharee wrote: »

Jaxaxo wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

The whole point i was trying to make is, sload's oblivion nature is a complete non-factor for my stam DK ... As far as i am concerned, it's just an average DOT.

Well, good for you. Here we come to the crux of where your argument fails. You're entirely self-centered and only focused on your class.

It has nothing to do with my class. My argument is that unless you use shields(like my stam DK, but that's just an example), sload is just an average-damage DOT that wouldn't raise any eyebrows if it did not penetrate shields.

I suspect most of ppl think about Sload in matters of CP campagin. I would like to remind u that there is pretty popular (at least on PC EU) nonCP campaign, in which Sload is overperforming much much more. Same in BGs. Unmitigable oblivion dot set with high uptime and one of the biggest dmg.

I understand your argument about sload (since the damage is fixed, it is proportionally much more dangerous in no-CP), but honestly, i think non-CP is such a mess that it can't be salvaged anymore, and not just because of sload.

Tbh expect proc sets and poisons clearly overperforming i see it as much more healthy and balanced camapign than CP

Qbiken

To anyone saying Sload is a "weak DoT", I highly recommend reading this thread down below:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/421134/math-sloads-vs-masters-dual-wield-a-perspective-on-balance/p1

TL:DR for those who doesn´t bother reading:

In a CP environment, between two similarly-built, max-CP players (ie. a fair fight) Sload's is dealing 102% to 140% more DPS than Master's Dual-Wield!

In no-CP, where bleeds become relatively stronger, this margin drops to 93-129%. And in the third scenario (a wild outlier where the target was exceptionally low on defenses, thus heavily favouring Master's DW), Sload's still outperforms by 47-74%

I´ve never been advocating against or in favor for Sload´s, but math doesn´t lie.

Gnozo

Sharee wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Effort to put bleeding on me: heavy attack from axes or twin slashes

Actually, any kind of melee attack will do. It has to be melee (not any like sload) but then it has a higher chance to proc(with 2 axes or 2H one), and does not require the sacrifice of a 5-piece set bonus(this is the "cost" of sload you forgot about).

Gnozo wrote: »

So you defending sloads cause bleeding is also broken? What type of mentality is this.

No. I'm telling you that with bleeds(and other dots etc.) around, sload is nothing special for a stam build. It hurts, sure. So do other things. It puts a drain on your healing, sure. So does any other damage.

As far as i remember axes are needed to proc bleeding. I dont think you can proc it with swords.

So you need duel wield axes or 2h axes. No bleeding on bow or sword and board. So to proc bleeding you need to have certain weapons and skills slottet wich reduces your build diversity.

And sloads can work on every build. No restrictions needed.

So having to use axes(a specific weapon type) for bleeds reduces your build diversity, while having to wear sload(a specific set) for the proc doesn't.

Gotta love the logic.

Bleed is only viable on stamina Builds. These Builds need to use either dw axes or 2h axes to proc it. Bow and sword and board dont proc bleed.

Sload is craftable and gives you stamina and magicka bonus so its viable for magicka and stamina Builds. And you dont need a specific weapon or skill to proc it.

So i think it cost more diversity to run a bleed build then running sloads.

Sharee

Qbiken wrote: »

To anyone saying Sload is a "weak DoT", I highly recommend reading this thread down below:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/421134/math-sloads-vs-masters-dual-wield-a-perspective-on-balance/p1

TL:DR for those who doesn´t bother reading:

In a CP environment, between two similarly-built, max-CP players (ie. a fair fight) Sload's is dealing 102% to 140% more DPS than Master's Dual-Wield!

In no-CP, where bleeds become relatively stronger, this margin drops to 93-129%. And in the third scenario (a wild outlier where the target was exceptionally low on defenses, thus heavily favouring Master's DW), Sload's still outperforms by 47-74%

I´ve never been advocating against or in favor for Sload´s, but math doesn´t lie.

Sload damage has been reduced by 15% since then.

Sharee

Jaxaxo wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Jaxaxo wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

The whole point i was trying to make is, sload's oblivion nature is a complete non-factor for my stam DK ... As far as i am concerned, it's just an average DOT.

Well, good for you. Here we come to the crux of where your argument fails. You're entirely self-centered and only focused on your class.

It has nothing to do with my class. My argument is that unless you use shields(like my stam DK, but that's just an example), sload is just an average-damage DOT that wouldn't raise any eyebrows if it did not penetrate shields.

I suspect most of ppl think about Sload in matters of CP campagin. I would like to remind u that there is pretty popular (at least on PC EU) nonCP campaign, in which Sload is overperforming much much more. Same in BGs. Unmitigable oblivion dot set with high uptime and one of the biggest dmg.

I understand your argument about sload (since the damage is fixed, it is proportionally much more dangerous in no-CP), but honestly, i think non-CP is such a mess that it can't be salvaged anymore, and not just because of sload.

Tbh expect proc sets and poisons clearly overperforming i see it as much more healthy and balanced camapign than CP

Well, from my experience, stam NB's for example are disgustingly overpowered in no CP thanks to cloak doing the same thing it does in CP, but the TTK being much shorter.

Gnozo

Sharee wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

To anyone saying Sload is a "weak DoT", I highly recommend reading this thread down below:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/421134/math-sloads-vs-masters-dual-wield-a-perspective-on-balance/p1

TL:DR for those who doesn´t bother reading:

In a CP environment, between two similarly-built, max-CP players (ie. a fair fight) Sload's is dealing 102% to 140% more DPS than Master's Dual-Wield!

In no-CP, where bleeds become relatively stronger, this margin drops to 93-129%. And in the third scenario (a wild outlier where the target was exceptionally low on defenses, thus heavily favouring Master's DW), Sload's still outperforms by 47-74%

I´ve never been advocating against or in favor for Sload´s, but math doesn´t lie.

Sload damage has been reduced by 15% since then.

Dps is still same. Its damage per second and its still 6 times 853 oblivion damage with 6 seconds cooldown. So basicly 100 % uptime.

Chilly-McFreeze

Sharee wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

To anyone saying Sload is a "weak DoT", I highly recommend reading this thread down below:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/421134/math-sloads-vs-masters-dual-wield-a-perspective-on-balance/p1

TL:DR for those who doesn´t bother reading:

In a CP environment, between two similarly-built, max-CP players (ie. a fair fight) Sload's is dealing 102% to 140% more DPS than Master's Dual-Wield!

In no-CP, where bleeds become relatively stronger, this margin drops to 93-129%. And in the third scenario (a wild outlier where the target was exceptionally low on defenses, thus heavily favouring Master's DW), Sload's still outperforms by 47-74%

I´ve never been advocating against or in favor for Sload´s, but math doesn´t lie.

Sload damage has been reduced by 15% since then.

The math was done ignoring the first tick of sloads, which is now gone.

TheYKcid wrote: »

Bumping this is light of the nerf as announced on PTS:

Sload’s Semblance:
Removed the first damage over time tick.
The damage over time effect now begins dealing damage 1 second after it has been applied.
Decreased the total damage by approximately 15% due to the removed tick.
Fixed an issue where the damage over time from this item set was removing invisibility.
Fixed an issue where the damage over time could proc itself.

This is nowhere near enough to make the set balanced.

Note that all the calculations I made in this thread IGNORED the extra initial tick, to begin with. The margins to which Sload's continues to overperform next patch will be identical to what is described in this thread—which is evidently far too much when compared to other sets!

The tooltip on Sload's should not be anything more than 500.

Sharee

Gnozo wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

To anyone saying Sload is a "weak DoT", I highly recommend reading this thread down below:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/421134/math-sloads-vs-masters-dual-wield-a-perspective-on-balance/p1

TL:DR for those who doesn´t bother reading:

In a CP environment, between two similarly-built, max-CP players (ie. a fair fight) Sload's is dealing 102% to 140% more DPS than Master's Dual-Wield!

In no-CP, where bleeds become relatively stronger, this margin drops to 93-129%. And in the third scenario (a wild outlier where the target was exceptionally low on defenses, thus heavily favouring Master's DW), Sload's still outperforms by 47-74%

I´ve never been advocating against or in favor for Sload´s, but math doesn´t lie.

Sload damage has been reduced by 15% since then.

Dps is still same. Its damage per second and its still 6 times 853 oblivion damage with 6 seconds cooldown. So basicly 100 % uptime.

No its not the same. That's why they didn't just remove one tick, but made the proc not deal damage until one second elapses. This creates a "missing tick" which decreases overall DPS by 15%

Gnozo

Poooof
There goes all the arguments sloads defenders come up with.

Rianai

Sharee wrote: »

If you think viper hits for too low damage, replace it with bleeds. Replace it with poison injection. It does not matter, because viper was just an example. The whole point i was trying to make is, sload's oblivion nature is a complete non-factor for my stam DK.

Why would you replace Sloads with PI or bleeds when you can get in in addition? Basically for free. All you have to trade for it is another set. And bleeds + Sloads will be almost always more dmg than bleeds + any other set. Even blooddrinker, which i guess is the set which buffs bleeds the most (and it doesn't do anything else) would require 4k+ dps from bleeds before the blooddrinker buff to pull even with Sloads. And since bleeds tick once every 2 seconds as far as i know that would mean we are talking about 8k bleed ticks. I have never experienced bleed dmg this high.

pieratsos

Sharee wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

To anyone saying Sload is a "weak DoT", I highly recommend reading this thread down below:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/421134/math-sloads-vs-masters-dual-wield-a-perspective-on-balance/p1

TL:DR for those who doesn´t bother reading:

In a CP environment, between two similarly-built, max-CP players (ie. a fair fight) Sload's is dealing 102% to 140% more DPS than Master's Dual-Wield!

In no-CP, where bleeds become relatively stronger, this margin drops to 93-129%. And in the third scenario (a wild outlier where the target was exceptionally low on defenses, thus heavily favouring Master's DW), Sload's still outperforms by 47-74%

I´ve never been advocating against or in favor for Sload´s, but math doesn´t lie.

Sload damage has been reduced by 15% since then.

Dps is still same. Its damage per second and its still 6 times 853 oblivion damage with 6 seconds cooldown. So basicly 100 % uptime.

No its not the same. That's why they didn't just remove one tick, but made the proc not deal damage until one second elapses. This creates a "missing tick" which decreases overall DPS by 15%

The tick they removed was the one at 0 seconds so now it doesn't have 7 ticks but 6. First one being at the first second hence creating the missing tick at 0 seconds. But that's how those comparisons were made. They didn't include the missing tick to begin with.

Jaxaxo

Sharee wrote: »

Jaxaxo wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Jaxaxo wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

The whole point i was trying to make is, sload's oblivion nature is a complete non-factor for my stam DK ... As far as i am concerned, it's just an average DOT.

Well, good for you. Here we come to the crux of where your argument fails. You're entirely self-centered and only focused on your class.

It has nothing to do with my class. My argument is that unless you use shields(like my stam DK, but that's just an example), sload is just an average-damage DOT that wouldn't raise any eyebrows if it did not penetrate shields.

I suspect most of ppl think about Sload in matters of CP campagin. I would like to remind u that there is pretty popular (at least on PC EU) nonCP campaign, in which Sload is overperforming much much more. Same in BGs. Unmitigable oblivion dot set with high uptime and one of the biggest dmg.

I understand your argument about sload (since the damage is fixed, it is proportionally much more dangerous in no-CP), but honestly, i think non-CP is such a mess that it can't be salvaged anymore, and not just because of sload.

Tbh expect proc sets and poisons clearly overperforming i see it as much more healthy and balanced camapign than CP

Well, from my experience, stam NB's for example are disgustingly overpowered in no CP thanks to cloak doing the same thing it does in CP, but the TTK being much shorter.

Oh, im totally aware of this and i think cloak should be nerfed and some other things in nb. And i still think noncp is much better to cp, which is basically tankfest. But that's mine opinion.

Sharee

Gnozo wrote: »

Poooof
There goes all the arguments sloads defenders come up with.

Not really. The thread referenced here earlier conceded that sload is basically equal to overwhelming surge. And it also includes a screenshot showing that sload uptime is far from the 100% the calculations assume(which got conveniently ignored).



568 average DPS. Not 853.

Rianai

Those comparisons assume 100% uptime on everything, to make calculations easier. Ofc actual uptimes can vary a lot, but usually a high uptime on Sloads is much easier to achieve than high uptimes on other stuff, because it procs on everything.

Gnozo

Then tell me what you wanted to proof with the Link you posted for master axed bleed?

I dont get it.

Sharee

Rianai wrote: »

Those comparisons assume 100% uptime on everything, to make calculations easier. Ofc actual uptimes can vary a lot, but usually a high uptime on Sloads is much easier to achieve than high uptimes on other stuff, because it procs on everything.

You make the calculation easier, but also grossly inaccurate. "It procs on everything therefore the uptime will be near 100!" is what i read everywhere. Look at that parse above. Four dots, plus spammables on top of that, and the set still only has a 59% uptime.

And that's with a target that just stands there and lets you bombard it with everything you got! (we know how often that happens in PvP, yes?) People act like all you need is to hit and enemy once in PvP and 100% sload uptime is guaranteed. Bollocks.

Jaxaxo

Sharee wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Poooof
There goes all the arguments sloads defenders come up with.

Not really. The thread referenced here earlier conceded that sload is basically equal to overwhelming surge. And it also includes a screenshot showing that sload uptime is far from the 100% the calculations assume(which got conveniently ignored).



568 average DPS. Not 853.

If u're stating that it's equal to overwhelming surge make same parses with surge instead, i really wonder about uptime of surge u will get

Sharee

Jaxaxo wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

Poooof
There goes all the arguments sloads defenders come up with.

Not really. The thread referenced here earlier conceded that sload is basically equal to overwhelming surge. And it also includes a screenshot showing that sload uptime is far from the 100% the calculations assume(which got conveniently ignored).



568 average DPS. Not 853.

If u're stating that it's equal to overwhelming surge make same parses with surge instead, i really wonder about uptime of surge u will get

It was not my conclusion, i merely referenced what the debate in the other thread lead to.

Gnozo

Sharee wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Those comparisons assume 100% uptime on everything, to make calculations easier. Ofc actual uptimes can vary a lot, but usually a high uptime on Sloads is much easier to achieve than high uptimes on other stuff, because it procs on everything.

You make the calculation easier, but also grossly inaccurate. "It procs on everything therefore the uptime will be near 100!" is what i read everywhere. Look at that parse above. Four dots, plus spammables on top of that, and the set still only has a 59% uptime.

And that's with a target that just stands there and lets you bombard it with everything you got! (we know how often that happens in PvP, yes?) People act like all you need is to hit and enemy once in PvP and 100% sload uptime is guaranteed. Bollocks.

Even one proc of sloads can kill you. Comparing 59% uptime on a 3m dummy to a 1v1 or even a 1vX makes 0 Sense tbh.

6 seconds in pvp is crazy long and in nocp one sloads proc eats my whole vigor healing, thats not balance for a proc set that has this easy proc condition.

Sharee

Gnozo wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Those comparisons assume 100% uptime on everything, to make calculations easier. Ofc actual uptimes can vary a lot, but usually a high uptime on Sloads is much easier to achieve than high uptimes on other stuff, because it procs on everything.

You make the calculation easier, but also grossly inaccurate. "It procs on everything therefore the uptime will be near 100!" is what i read everywhere. Look at that parse above. Four dots, plus spammables on top of that, and the set still only has a 59% uptime.

And that's with a target that just stands there and lets you bombard it with everything you got! (we know how often that happens in PvP, yes?) People act like all you need is to hit and enemy once in PvP and 100% sload uptime is guaranteed. Bollocks.

Comparing 59% uptime on a 3m dummy to a 1v1 or even a 1vX makes 0 Sense tbh

It makes 0 sense because opponents in PvP won't let you beat on them like a target dummy does, so the actual uptime in PvP will be even lower than the 59% on the screenshot...

Fun fact: Valkyn Skoria did more than twice the DPS of sload in that test. Nerf Skoria?

Gnozo

Gnozo wrote: »

6 seconds in pvp is crazy long and in nocp one sloads proc eats my whole vigor healing, thats not balance for a proc set that has this easy proc condition.

Completly ignoring what i wrote there. Cool.

Sharee

Gnozo wrote: »

Gnozo wrote: »

6 seconds in pvp is crazy long and in nocp one sloads proc eats my whole vigor healing, thats not balance for a proc set that has this easy proc condition.

Completly ignoring what i wrote there. Cool.

Of course i did. What could i possibly have replied to "Sload hurt!"?

Chilly-McFreeze

Sharee wrote: »

Fun fact: Valkyn Skoria did more than twice the DPS of sload in that test. Nerf Skoria?

Fun fact: Skoria's "DPS" would get halfed via battlespirit while Sload's doesn't.

In b4 "but it still does more damage": it can be blocked, reduced by % mitigation buffs (yes, also buffed) and has worse proc conditions. Yet people argue if Skoria on itself is OP.

Sharee

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Fun fact: Valkyn Skoria did more than twice the DPS of sload in that test. Nerf Skoria?

Fun fact: Skoria's "DPS" would get halfed via battlespirit while Sload's doesn't.

In b4 "but it still does more damage": it can be blocked, reduced by % mitigation buffs (yes, also buffed) and has worse proc conditions. Yet people argue if Skoria on itself is OP.

No comment on the "they calculated sload as having 100% uptime" fallacy?

But yea. Fair point. With battle spirit, a 2-piece set bonus would actually do slightly less DPS than a 5-piece set bonus.