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Damage Shields really need to be reworked
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ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Whether defile is balanced or not is completely irrelevant. Thats a balance issue with heals/defiles. It has nothing to do with shields or any other defense mechanic.Dark exchange is avery good skill, but no on-demand burst heal. Surge requires you to be on the offense fort some heals. Pets suck in open-world PvP.
The skills you named are very good in combination with a strong shield or shield stacking, but only mediocre without.
Well I'm not suggesting to not use a shield lol. I'm just pointing out that the sorc does have great survivability with just the use of Hardened ward, and healing ward. Harness magicka is just Overkill, and it should not be able to stack with hardened.
No. We don’t have great survivability with one shield. Have you ever tried it? I’m guessing not.Damage shields are absolutely too strong. Don't delude yourselves, in a 1v1 its beyond OP, and easily sustainable. It also doesn't have much good soft counters (like cloak)
Yeah it melts 1vX, but so does everything else.
Make shields defiled (though lower defile) and make shields maj/min. Then buff sorc's mobility, small buff for mines, BoL removes snares for 1s, and streak doesn't increase in price when hitting someone.
This would destroy the class pretty much, especially because your spammable nightblade ultimate would basically make it impossible to shield. Agenda much?
I’m so happy sometimes that the devs ignore these garbage suggestions.
1) L2R. I said nerf defile first. I don't even have an NB leveled.
2) No it wouldn't.
I bet you are the first to complain about shieldbreaker/sloads. Newsflash, they wouldn't exist if shields had a soft counters. Cloak may be stronger, but it has the same problems, too strong when not countered, too weak when countered.
The 3 other classes have to deal with it, just look at block: 2K stam every sec, requires heavy building at the cost of damage, all dots go through, bleeds go through resists too (broken) unblockable abilities go through, many AoEs go through, and unblockable CCs go though. Stops stam, snares.
But...But pressure. Congrats, you can pressure anything easier, and with block it goes straight to the health, which can be defiled.
Sorcs could use certain buffs, but don't kid yourself and say shields are fine. Maybe in no CP without bastion, or extra resources, but absolutely not in CP. If they were, MagDKs wouldn't go shields instead of the defense they synergize with, many magplars wouldn't go to shields so they can get their damage off, etc.
Why should you be immune to defiles?
Shields should be immune to defiles because they don't have any equivalent to major/minor mending and major/minor vitality
Unless you also want to add those in, but what would be the point? Seems like a lot of trouble just to rebalance something that's already balanced.
Edit - balanced doesn't mean well designed. I find the current implementation of shield design godawful...but it's pretty well balanced.
But shield size scales of mag which can be increased, but has no way to reduce the effectiveness of mag in the same way that mitigation scales of resistance, which can be buffed, but also lowered.
Heals scale with spell dmg and magicka too which can also be increased but not lowered. You are comparing apples with oranges.
It does. Healing can be lowered beyond base though.
Healing has defiles that trump the buff sections of it, since defiles are post other buffs and the other healing buffs are not very easily accessible.
Shields are quite strong Xv1, (shield users being the X, me being the 1, I know shields are weak when outnumbered yourself) and no opportunity to soft counter and whittle away at them as you can heals often means you either have to ignore them, or throw a lot of resources into them. If shields had mending amps, and defile debuffs, that would allow you to buff/debuff shields lower/higher than current level.
Defenses without soft counters are bad design. Defenses with hard counters are bad design too, so SB/sloads will be gone
To balance this mobility buffs would be useful, it wouldn't just be an indiscriminate nerf, it'd be a rebalance to add softcounters to something that currently lacks it and then give more flavor to sorcs by buffing another part of them.
Heals have defiles because they have mending. You can debuff ur opponent's heals because they can buff their heals. You can crit people because they can mitigate crits. Thats how counters work. If something doesnt have a counter then its no longer a soft counter. Its a hard counter and that is precisely what you are trying to do with shields.
You cant defile shields because they cant be buffed. You cant crit them because they cant crit. If you put a counter to shields like defile then its not a soft counter. Its by definition a hard counter because there wont be anything you can do to counter it. Im not telling you that shields are good as they are. But the problem is with their design. Not with the fact that they have no counters.
And just to give you some numbers so you can actually understand ur solution, if you were able to defile shields then you would be looking at something like 14k shieldstack (normal sorc builds) at best assuming a hugely nerfed defile. Thats like current no CP shields. And you want that in campaigns where people are pushing 25k dmg tooltips. Its self explanatory what is going to happen. And we are not even considering the fact that you could also defile them in no CP. At that point there wont even be a point to have any shield on ur bar. You will be able to outdmg them by just light attacking.
Again im not telling you that shieldstacking is good. But thats a design issue. Not a balance issue. Putting a defile on shields is a band aid fix that affects everyone but those that actually abuse shieldstacking. Aka the 50k magicka builds. And the only thing you will end up doing, is just force people to stack more magicka to go back to bigger shields again. And if ZOS actually puts also a way to buff shields like mending to counter defile (which would logically be available to sorcs) then i dont even wanna know what is going to happen. And we are not even touching on the consequences to other classes.
I understand that its not ur intention, and probably not the intention of many others proposing these "solutions". But these "solutions" will open pandoras box.
There would also be buffs to shields, so that they can be increased beyond base, changing shields from a static simple defense to a varied defense with an added layer of complexity which if used skillfully doesn't become a pure nerf. It would require more build "conditioning" but would allow you to reach higher shields with more sacrifice, whilst also being able to be debuffed to a lower level than currently.
Currently, there is really not much you can do against shields rather than either build specifically to counter them, or bash your face against them, which is very simple for a shield user to counter 1v1, however If you can defile them, then you have a better chance if they don't also maintain the buffs.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Whether defile is balanced or not is completely irrelevant. Thats a balance issue with heals/defiles. It has nothing to do with shields or any other defense mechanic.Dark exchange is avery good skill, but no on-demand burst heal. Surge requires you to be on the offense fort some heals. Pets suck in open-world PvP.
The skills you named are very good in combination with a strong shield or shield stacking, but only mediocre without.
Well I'm not suggesting to not use a shield lol. I'm just pointing out that the sorc does have great survivability with just the use of Hardened ward, and healing ward. Harness magicka is just Overkill, and it should not be able to stack with hardened.
No. We don’t have great survivability with one shield. Have you ever tried it? I’m guessing not.Damage shields are absolutely too strong. Don't delude yourselves, in a 1v1 its beyond OP, and easily sustainable. It also doesn't have much good soft counters (like cloak)
Yeah it melts 1vX, but so does everything else.
Make shields defiled (though lower defile) and make shields maj/min. Then buff sorc's mobility, small buff for mines, BoL removes snares for 1s, and streak doesn't increase in price when hitting someone.
This would destroy the class pretty much, especially because your spammable nightblade ultimate would basically make it impossible to shield. Agenda much?
I’m so happy sometimes that the devs ignore these garbage suggestions.
1) L2R. I said nerf defile first. I don't even have an NB leveled.
2) No it wouldn't.
I bet you are the first to complain about shieldbreaker/sloads. Newsflash, they wouldn't exist if shields had a soft counters. Cloak may be stronger, but it has the same problems, too strong when not countered, too weak when countered.
The 3 other classes have to deal with it, just look at block: 2K stam every sec, requires heavy building at the cost of damage, all dots go through, bleeds go through resists too (broken) unblockable abilities go through, many AoEs go through, and unblockable CCs go though. Stops stam, snares.
But...But pressure. Congrats, you can pressure anything easier, and with block it goes straight to the health, which can be defiled.
Sorcs could use certain buffs, but don't kid yourself and say shields are fine. Maybe in no CP without bastion, or extra resources, but absolutely not in CP. If they were, MagDKs wouldn't go shields instead of the defense they synergize with, many magplars wouldn't go to shields so they can get their damage off, etc.
Why should you be immune to defiles?
Shields should be immune to defiles because they don't have any equivalent to major/minor mending and major/minor vitality Unless you also want to add those in, but what would be the point? Seems like a lot of trouble just to rebalance something that's already balanced.
Edit - balanced doesn't mean well designed. I find the current implementation of shield design godawful...but it's pretty well balanced.
But shield size scales of mag which can be increased, but has no way to reduce the effectiveness of mag in the same way that mitigation scales of resistance, which can be buffed, but also lowered.
Heals scale with spell dmg and magicka too which can also be increased but not lowered. You are comparing apples with oranges.
It does. Healing can be lowered beyond base though.
Healing has defiles that trump the buff sections of it, since defiles are post other buffs and the other healing buffs are not very easily accessible.
Shields are quite strong Xv1, (shield users being the X, me being the 1, I know shields are weak when outnumbered yourself) and no opportunity to soft counter and whittle away at them as you can heals often means you either have to ignore them, or throw a lot of resources into them. If shields had mending amps, and defile debuffs, that would allow you to buff/debuff shields lower/higher than current level.
Defenses without soft counters are bad design. Defenses with hard counters are bad design too, so SB/sloads will be gone
To balance this mobility buffs would be useful, it wouldn't just be an indiscriminate nerf, it'd be a rebalance to add softcounters to something that currently lacks it and then give more flavor to sorcs by buffing another part of them.
Heals have defiles because they have mending. You can debuff ur opponent's heals because they can buff their heals. You can crit people because they can mitigate crits. Thats how counters work. If something doesnt have a counter then its no longer a soft counter. Its a hard counter and that is precisely what you are trying to do with shields.
You cant defile shields because they cant be buffed. You cant crit them because they cant crit. If you put a counter to shields like defile then its not a soft counter. Its by definition a hard counter because there wont be anything you can do to counter it. Im not telling you that shields are good as they are. But the problem is with their design. Not with the fact that they have no counters.
And just to give you some numbers so you can actually understand ur solution, if you were able to defile shields then you would be looking at something like 14k shieldstack (normal sorc builds) at best assuming a hugely nerfed defile. Thats like current no CP shields. And you want that in campaigns where people are pushing 25k dmg tooltips. Its self explanatory what is going to happen. And we are not even considering the fact that you could also defile them in no CP. At that point there wont even be a point to have any shield on ur bar. You will be able to outdmg them by just light attacking.
Again im not telling you that shieldstacking is good. But thats a design issue. Not a balance issue. Putting a defile on shields is a band aid fix that affects everyone but those that actually abuse shieldstacking. Aka the 50k magicka builds. And the only thing you will end up doing, is just force people to stack more magicka to go back to bigger shields again. And if ZOS actually puts also a way to buff shields like mending to counter defile (which would logically be available to sorcs) then i dont even wanna know what is going to happen. And we are not even touching on the consequences to other classes.
I understand that its not ur intention, and probably not the intention of many others proposing these "solutions". But these "solutions" will open pandoras box.
There would also be buffs to shields, so that they can be increased beyond base, changing shields from a static simple defense to a varied defense with an added layer of complexity which if used skillfully doesn't become a pure nerf. It would require more build "conditioning" but would allow you to reach higher shields with more sacrifice, whilst also being able to be debuffed to a lower level than currently.
Currently, there is really not much you can do against shields rather than either build specifically to counter them, or bash your face against them, which is very simple for a shield user to counter 1v1, however If you can defile them, then you have a better chance if they don't also maintain the buffs.
Haven't read the past pages so sorry if this was already mentioned.
The last thing defile needs is another "buff". It's strong enough, it doesn't need to get better. In case you're talking about a new debuff, unlinked to defile/befoul, then let's contemplate what defile does to healing: it pushes everyone over who doesn't build to be a heal bot, it's devastating to everyone with "normal" builds. Same would happen to shields. If you think max mag builds are a problem now, then be in for a surprise if such a debuff forces shield users into building even more for it.
Not to start with the accesibility of such de-/buffs and how if further shifts balance between classes. Would such a debuff be easier accessible to builds that already have no issue with tearing down shields? Would the buff be hard to access to those who already have bar space issues but have to rely on shields? If it's too hard to access for sorcs (who's main defence is shielding over healing or armor) they run into survivability issues. If it's too easy accessible those shieldstacking sorcs with now +X% to their wards become even more of an issue.1 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Whether defile is balanced or not is completely irrelevant. Thats a balance issue with heals/defiles. It has nothing to do with shields or any other defense mechanic.Dark exchange is avery good skill, but no on-demand burst heal. Surge requires you to be on the offense fort some heals. Pets suck in open-world PvP.
The skills you named are very good in combination with a strong shield or shield stacking, but only mediocre without.
Well I'm not suggesting to not use a shield lol. I'm just pointing out that the sorc does have great survivability with just the use of Hardened ward, and healing ward. Harness magicka is just Overkill, and it should not be able to stack with hardened.
No. We don’t have great survivability with one shield. Have you ever tried it? I’m guessing not.Damage shields are absolutely too strong. Don't delude yourselves, in a 1v1 its beyond OP, and easily sustainable. It also doesn't have much good soft counters (like cloak)
Yeah it melts 1vX, but so does everything else.
Make shields defiled (though lower defile) and make shields maj/min. Then buff sorc's mobility, small buff for mines, BoL removes snares for 1s, and streak doesn't increase in price when hitting someone.
This would destroy the class pretty much, especially because your spammable nightblade ultimate would basically make it impossible to shield. Agenda much?
I’m so happy sometimes that the devs ignore these garbage suggestions.
1) L2R. I said nerf defile first. I don't even have an NB leveled.
2) No it wouldn't.
I bet you are the first to complain about shieldbreaker/sloads. Newsflash, they wouldn't exist if shields had a soft counters. Cloak may be stronger, but it has the same problems, too strong when not countered, too weak when countered.
The 3 other classes have to deal with it, just look at block: 2K stam every sec, requires heavy building at the cost of damage, all dots go through, bleeds go through resists too (broken) unblockable abilities go through, many AoEs go through, and unblockable CCs go though. Stops stam, snares.
But...But pressure. Congrats, you can pressure anything easier, and with block it goes straight to the health, which can be defiled.
Sorcs could use certain buffs, but don't kid yourself and say shields are fine. Maybe in no CP without bastion, or extra resources, but absolutely not in CP. If they were, MagDKs wouldn't go shields instead of the defense they synergize with, many magplars wouldn't go to shields so they can get their damage off, etc.
Why should you be immune to defiles?
Shields should be immune to defiles because they don't have any equivalent to major/minor mending and major/minor vitality Unless you also want to add those in, but what would be the point? Seems like a lot of trouble just to rebalance something that's already balanced.
Edit - balanced doesn't mean well designed. I find the current implementation of shield design godawful...but it's pretty well balanced.
But shield size scales of mag which can be increased, but has no way to reduce the effectiveness of mag in the same way that mitigation scales of resistance, which can be buffed, but also lowered.
Heals scale with spell dmg and magicka too which can also be increased but not lowered. You are comparing apples with oranges.
It does. Healing can be lowered beyond base though.
Healing has defiles that trump the buff sections of it, since defiles are post other buffs and the other healing buffs are not very easily accessible.
Shields are quite strong Xv1, (shield users being the X, me being the 1, I know shields are weak when outnumbered yourself) and no opportunity to soft counter and whittle away at them as you can heals often means you either have to ignore them, or throw a lot of resources into them. If shields had mending amps, and defile debuffs, that would allow you to buff/debuff shields lower/higher than current level.
Defenses without soft counters are bad design. Defenses with hard counters are bad design too, so SB/sloads will be gone
To balance this mobility buffs would be useful, it wouldn't just be an indiscriminate nerf, it'd be a rebalance to add softcounters to something that currently lacks it and then give more flavor to sorcs by buffing another part of them.
Heals have defiles because they have mending. You can debuff ur opponent's heals because they can buff their heals. You can crit people because they can mitigate crits. Thats how counters work. If something doesnt have a counter then its no longer a soft counter. Its a hard counter and that is precisely what you are trying to do with shields.
You cant defile shields because they cant be buffed. You cant crit them because they cant crit. If you put a counter to shields like defile then its not a soft counter. Its by definition a hard counter because there wont be anything you can do to counter it. Im not telling you that shields are good as they are. But the problem is with their design. Not with the fact that they have no counters.
And just to give you some numbers so you can actually understand ur solution, if you were able to defile shields then you would be looking at something like 14k shieldstack (normal sorc builds) at best assuming a hugely nerfed defile. Thats like current no CP shields. And you want that in campaigns where people are pushing 25k dmg tooltips. Its self explanatory what is going to happen. And we are not even considering the fact that you could also defile them in no CP. At that point there wont even be a point to have any shield on ur bar. You will be able to outdmg them by just light attacking.
Again im not telling you that shieldstacking is good. But thats a design issue. Not a balance issue. Putting a defile on shields is a band aid fix that affects everyone but those that actually abuse shieldstacking. Aka the 50k magicka builds. And the only thing you will end up doing, is just force people to stack more magicka to go back to bigger shields again. And if ZOS actually puts also a way to buff shields like mending to counter defile (which would logically be available to sorcs) then i dont even wanna know what is going to happen. And we are not even touching on the consequences to other classes.
I understand that its not ur intention, and probably not the intention of many others proposing these "solutions". But these "solutions" will open pandoras box.
There would also be buffs to shields, so that they can be increased beyond base, changing shields from a static simple defense to a varied defense with an added layer of complexity which if used skillfully doesn't become a pure nerf. It would require more build "conditioning" but would allow you to reach higher shields with more sacrifice, whilst also being able to be debuffed to a lower level than currently.
Currently, there is really not much you can do against shields rather than either build specifically to counter them, or bash your face against them, which is very simple for a shield user to counter 1v1, however If you can defile them, then you have a better chance if they don't also maintain the buffs.
Bingo. Thats a good starting point. Changing the design. Make them less obnoxious in 1v1 or Xv1 but better when you are outnumbered. No defiles, no mending, no counters needed. Just fix the design which is the issue. But then again, that can also have massive repercussion on other classes . Maybe only make hardened work like that but not be able to stack with other shields. Dunno. There is no easy solution.
Well there is one actually. Nerf stupid harness and put some sort of freaking softcaps so people cant push overly specialized builds and abuse every mechanic in the game.0 -
Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Whether defile is balanced or not is completely irrelevant. Thats a balance issue with heals/defiles. It has nothing to do with shields or any other defense mechanic.Dark exchange is avery good skill, but no on-demand burst heal. Surge requires you to be on the offense fort some heals. Pets suck in open-world PvP.
The skills you named are very good in combination with a strong shield or shield stacking, but only mediocre without.
Well I'm not suggesting to not use a shield lol. I'm just pointing out that the sorc does have great survivability with just the use of Hardened ward, and healing ward. Harness magicka is just Overkill, and it should not be able to stack with hardened.
No. We don’t have great survivability with one shield. Have you ever tried it? I’m guessing not.Damage shields are absolutely too strong. Don't delude yourselves, in a 1v1 its beyond OP, and easily sustainable. It also doesn't have much good soft counters (like cloak)
Yeah it melts 1vX, but so does everything else.
Make shields defiled (though lower defile) and make shields maj/min. Then buff sorc's mobility, small buff for mines, BoL removes snares for 1s, and streak doesn't increase in price when hitting someone.
This would destroy the class pretty much, especially because your spammable nightblade ultimate would basically make it impossible to shield. Agenda much?
I’m so happy sometimes that the devs ignore these garbage suggestions.
1) L2R. I said nerf defile first. I don't even have an NB leveled.
2) No it wouldn't.
I bet you are the first to complain about shieldbreaker/sloads. Newsflash, they wouldn't exist if shields had a soft counters. Cloak may be stronger, but it has the same problems, too strong when not countered, too weak when countered.
The 3 other classes have to deal with it, just look at block: 2K stam every sec, requires heavy building at the cost of damage, all dots go through, bleeds go through resists too (broken) unblockable abilities go through, many AoEs go through, and unblockable CCs go though. Stops stam, snares.
But...But pressure. Congrats, you can pressure anything easier, and with block it goes straight to the health, which can be defiled.
Sorcs could use certain buffs, but don't kid yourself and say shields are fine. Maybe in no CP without bastion, or extra resources, but absolutely not in CP. If they were, MagDKs wouldn't go shields instead of the defense they synergize with, many magplars wouldn't go to shields so they can get their damage off, etc.
Why should you be immune to defiles?
Shields should be immune to defiles because they don't have any equivalent to major/minor mending and major/minor vitality Unless you also want to add those in, but what would be the point? Seems like a lot of trouble just to rebalance something that's already balanced.
Edit - balanced doesn't mean well designed. I find the current implementation of shield design godawful...but it's pretty well balanced.
But shield size scales of mag which can be increased, but has no way to reduce the effectiveness of mag in the same way that mitigation scales of resistance, which can be buffed, but also lowered.
Heals scale with spell dmg and magicka too which can also be increased but not lowered. You are comparing apples with oranges.
It does. Healing can be lowered beyond base though.
Healing has defiles that trump the buff sections of it, since defiles are post other buffs and the other healing buffs are not very easily accessible.
Shields are quite strong Xv1, (shield users being the X, me being the 1, I know shields are weak when outnumbered yourself) and no opportunity to soft counter and whittle away at them as you can heals often means you either have to ignore them, or throw a lot of resources into them. If shields had mending amps, and defile debuffs, that would allow you to buff/debuff shields lower/higher than current level.
Defenses without soft counters are bad design. Defenses with hard counters are bad design too, so SB/sloads will be gone
To balance this mobility buffs would be useful, it wouldn't just be an indiscriminate nerf, it'd be a rebalance to add softcounters to something that currently lacks it and then give more flavor to sorcs by buffing another part of them.
Heals have defiles because they have mending. You can debuff ur opponent's heals because they can buff their heals. You can crit people because they can mitigate crits. Thats how counters work. If something doesnt have a counter then its no longer a soft counter. Its a hard counter and that is precisely what you are trying to do with shields.
You cant defile shields because they cant be buffed. You cant crit them because they cant crit. If you put a counter to shields like defile then its not a soft counter. Its by definition a hard counter because there wont be anything you can do to counter it. Im not telling you that shields are good as they are. But the problem is with their design. Not with the fact that they have no counters.
And just to give you some numbers so you can actually understand ur solution, if you were able to defile shields then you would be looking at something like 14k shieldstack (normal sorc builds) at best assuming a hugely nerfed defile. Thats like current no CP shields. And you want that in campaigns where people are pushing 25k dmg tooltips. Its self explanatory what is going to happen. And we are not even considering the fact that you could also defile them in no CP. At that point there wont even be a point to have any shield on ur bar. You will be able to outdmg them by just light attacking.
Again im not telling you that shieldstacking is good. But thats a design issue. Not a balance issue. Putting a defile on shields is a band aid fix that affects everyone but those that actually abuse shieldstacking. Aka the 50k magicka builds. And the only thing you will end up doing, is just force people to stack more magicka to go back to bigger shields again. And if ZOS actually puts also a way to buff shields like mending to counter defile (which would logically be available to sorcs) then i dont even wanna know what is going to happen. And we are not even touching on the consequences to other classes.
I understand that its not ur intention, and probably not the intention of many others proposing these "solutions". But these "solutions" will open pandoras box.
There would also be buffs to shields, so that they can be increased beyond base, changing shields from a static simple defense to a varied defense with an added layer of complexity which if used skillfully doesn't become a pure nerf. It would require more build "conditioning" but would allow you to reach higher shields with more sacrifice, whilst also being able to be debuffed to a lower level than currently.
Currently, there is really not much you can do against shields rather than either build specifically to counter them, or bash your face against them, which is very simple for a shield user to counter 1v1, however If you can defile them, then you have a better chance if they don't also maintain the buffs.
Bingo. Thats a good starting point. Changing the design. Make them less obnoxious in 1v1 or Xv1 but better when you are outnumbered. No defiles, no mending, no counters needed. Just fix the design which is the issue. But then again, that can also have massive repercussion on other classes . Maybe only make hardened work like that but not be able to stack with other shields. Dunno. There is no easy solution.
Well there is one actually. Nerf stupid harness and put some sort of freaking softcaps so people cant push overly specialized builds and abuse every mechanic in the game.
Hmm... Nerfing the base value while having a scaling mechanic that increases by a certain percentage per enemy in the area wouldn't be a bad idea. It would need a cap though in order to prevent it being too OP.0 -
Lord_Wrath✭✭✭✭✭I guess im the only one that feels like shields are useless in pvp. Even stacking shields, stam players can still mow you down in a second without a chance to heal or recast shields (mostly because this game sucks at being responsive).1300+ CP | Lørd Wrath | - Sorcerer - Palatine - Grand Master Crafter - 30000 Achievement Points
Launch Player - PC - NA - EP0 -
kessik221✭✭✭Leave shields alone. Theres plenty of counters to them in PvP and in PvE it doesn't make any sense; light armor has less resistances and no dodge bonus or health bonus, therefore they get a health shield.
2 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Priyasekarssk wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »
Dark Exchange and the Twilight are your burst heals. Critical Sure is your HoT. Crystal Frags when proc'd is a hard hitting instant cast like the spectral bow except you can use it more often. Instant cast spammable? Use Crushing Shock or Elemental Weapons.
You already have the tools to have great survivability without shield stacking.
I am talking about PvP here. PvP where you eventually have to slot damaging skills as well, not double barring a (2 hits => dead) pet and use a plethora of PvE stuff just to keep you alive.
@bardx86
funny enough a lot of sorcs argue that rune cage isn't OP and people need to adapt, but when the idea of fixing shield stacking comes up and people suggest class skills that heal mag sorc all of a sudden it's a problem to adapt.
kinda funny.
Ruge cage is OP . Fear and Incap is not !!!! Very funny isnt it? How about common poll involving all class players excluding sorcs and NBs ?
Incap/ Fear is OP and nobody is arguing against a nerf for these skills. it's only mag sorcs that argue against any adjustment to their class. which is hypocrisy and lowers credibility.Edited by Anti_Virus on June 19, 2018 3:09AMPower Wealth And Influence.1 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Anti_Virus wrote: »
Dark Exchange and the Twilight are your burst heals. Critical Sure is your HoT. Crystal Frags when proc'd is a hard hitting instant cast like the spectral bow except you can use it more often. Instant cast spammable? Use Crushing Shock or Elemental Weapons.
You already have the tools to have great survivability without shield stacking.
I am talking about PvP here. PvP where you eventually have to slot damaging skills as well, not double barring a (2 hits => dead) pet and use a plethora of PvE stuff just to keep you alive.
@bardx86
funny enough a lot of sorcs argue that rune cage isn't OP and people need to adapt, but when the idea of fixing shield stacking comes up and people suggest class skills that heal mag sorc all of a sudden it's a problem to adapt.
kinda funny.
Look dude, how may folks on this board state that they have no issue killing a stacking Sorc? Face facts some folks are better than you. Again, SOME FOLKS ARE BETTER THAN YOU, regardless of class. Ever went toe to toe with king richard, methuselah, lucky lucy, fengish? Study the fight, figure out where you lost because you made a mistake. Learn!
still doesn't address the hypocritical argument that you and other mag sorc mains make.
if you scream people need to L2P or adapt when their class/combo gets nerfed, then you too need to do the same if shield stacking gets adjusted.
also, no not true at all, all they do is have more time to play the game than others since they are streamers. If I quit my full-time job to be a streamer I would be just as "good" as them. Streamer worship isn't healthy.Power Wealth And Influence.1 -
Zeytio✭✭✭In my opinion shields in non cp need a buff. Shields are so strong for the most part due to cp allocations in specific places ( mostly hardy, thick skin, etc. ) and without these shields seem very very weak. All together mag toons in non cp need a buff. You can't even compare stam to mag in non cp. Stamina characters rule in that environment. Shields in cp are strong yes, but they are very counterable by a good player that knows what they're doing.Edited by Zeytio on June 19, 2018 3:00AM[PC/NA] - Zeytio
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Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Anti_Virus wrote: »Priyasekarssk wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »
Dark Exchange and the Twilight are your burst heals. Critical Sure is your HoT. Crystal Frags when proc'd is a hard hitting instant cast like the spectral bow except you can use it more often. Instant cast spammable? Use Crushing Shock or Elemental Weapons.
You already have the tools to have great survivability without shield stacking.
I am talking about PvP here. PvP where you eventually have to slot damaging skills as well, not double barring a (2 hits => dead) pet and use a plethora of PvE stuff just to keep you alive.
@bardx86
funny enough a lot of sorcs argue that rune cage isn't OP and people need to adapt, but when the idea of fixing shield stacking comes up and people suggest class skills that heal mag sorc all of a sudden it's a problem to adapt.
kinda funny.
Ruge cage is OP . Fear and Incap is not !!!! Very funny isnt it? How about common poll involving all class players excluding sorcs and NBs ?
Incap/ Fear is OP and nobody is arguing against a nerf for these skills. it's only mag sorcs that argue against any adjustment to their class. which is hypocrisy and lowers credibility.
Because that’s how the nerf cycle works, patch after patch nightblades get to keep all of their goodies, while forumblades cry and mostly want to ruin Sorcs. So, we say **** that, we shouldn’t change $***. Where are all of these same nightblades asking for “adjustments” to their class, thread after thread? Here’s a hint: they’re not. They want EZ mode.
Nightblade is still the best designed class in this game, and lethal when built and played correctly.In my opinion shields in non cp need a buff. Shields are so strong for the most part due to cp allocations in specific places ( mostly hardy, thick skin, etc. ) and without these shields seem very very weak. All together mag toons in non cp need a buff. You can't even compare stam to mag in non cp. Stamina characters rule in that environment. Shields in cp are strong yes, but they are very counterable by a good player that knows what they're doing.
Sorcerer PVP is designed around CP, period. You take a Sorc out of that context and it’s both ridiculously and simultaneously under and over powered.
For example, Shields are a terrible for defense in no-CP, there’s no question that a 7-8K shield is bad, and stacking is too expensive without regen CP. On the other side, rune cage is WAY over the top when your enemies can’t permanently dodge roll and block - where that’s less of an issue in a CP campaign.Edited by Minalan on June 19, 2018 3:42AM2 -
Vahrokh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Anti_Virus wrote: »
Dark Exchange and the Twilight are your burst heals. Critical Sure is your HoT. Crystal Frags when proc'd is a hard hitting instant cast like the spectral bow except you can use it more often. Instant cast spammable? Use Crushing Shock or Elemental Weapons.
You already have the tools to have great survivability without shield stacking.
I am talking about PvP here. PvP where you eventually have to slot damaging skills as well, not double barring a (2 hits => dead) pet and use a plethora of PvE stuff just to keep you alive.
@bardx86
funny enough a lot of sorcs argue that rune cage isn't OP and people need to adapt, but when the idea of fixing shield stacking comes up and people suggest class skills that heal mag sorc all of a sudden it's a problem to adapt.
kinda funny.
Why would a non healer class need to have healing skills. Tell that in other MMOs, they'd laugh at you loud.
Making all classes copycats is one of the most horrible ideas ZOS are doing over time. If I wanted to play an healer I'd roll a templar.
Furthermore, I find it TERRIBLE for ZOS to make a class "one trick pony or lose", so that sorcs HAVE to do crappy shield stacking (which I hate) and use the FOTM 1 trick pony rune cage ability or go home. Good balance comes from an "arsenal" of well orchestrated moving pieces (this is why NBs are so good), creating THE I win button only calls for nerfs.
And what when the nerfs actually happen? That the class suddenly sucks but ZOS won't just adjust it as a whole. No, they'll power up the next I-win button setting up another hundreds of cry-nerf threads like this (always by the most OP class players of course) until the next nerf comes.
And what could be worse than this sloppy bad design?
That usually the nerfs propagate to PvE, so pure PvE players like me now have to live with sheeeet crystal frags, sheet < 4s long shields, sheeeeet max health, sheeeeeet regen and so on for a long list.Edited by Vahrokh on June 19, 2018 6:07AMVaerah, Dark Elf Magicka Sorceress
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Galarthor✭✭✭✭✭
✭Cloak is stupid too. But block/dodge all have soft counters that can go through, and is way more sacrificial than shields, block requires running s/b which is a damage loss, and blocking stops stam regen, snares, means you can't weave. And it requires speccing into lowering costs and sustaining it. Dodge also has things that can go through it.
Shields doesn't have these caveats. Shields scales of a damage stat and doesn't require throwing stats things around to be usable, doesn't gimp your damage, doesn't stop regen, and doesn't snare. If shields were worse than block, MagDK meta wouldn't be shields nowadays, despite synergy with block.
Cloak is a little different, it doesn't scale of anything, but its a 1 cost per use, unlike blocks cost increase per hit every 0.25s and doesn't really require an incredible amount of speccing into to use. Cloak is too strong for similar reasons, bad soft counters, too strong hard counters.
(1)Do you know why the regeneration of stamina stops when blocking? B/c unlike shields, that you have to spam preemptively, which for which also have up front cost block only costs you something when you actually take damage. Therefore, you can run around with block 100% of the time and thus prevent any suprise attacks and a large proportion of CCs. The same is not true for shields, if you keep them up 100% of the time you either need insane regen or you will run out of magicka relatively quickly. In addition, having shields up does not prevent any kind of CC. Also:
(2) unlike for shields you don't have to sacrifice a slot on your bars in order to be able to use block.
(3) block has a far greater potential since it mitigates damage on a relative basis rather than by an absolute amount.
(4) using shields requires you to run at least 5 pieces of light armor, and a sorc without 5 piece LA is also not shield stacking.
(5) maybe you can't weave with block, but there are plenty abilities that can be cast while holding block, which means you dont have to waste a gloabal cooldown to use a defensive ability, which means you got an additional gloabal cooldown over your enemy, you can avoid a lot of CC 100% of the time.
(6) the only real caveat compared to shields is the "snare", but come on how much more do you want? You don't have to sacrifice a slot on a bar, you do don't have to stack into any stats to achieve a decent mitigation, you are hard to CC.
(7) same arguements go for the fact that AoE's go through block ... you got a free mitigation tool, ofc there has to be some drawbacks when compared to defensive abilities that have to be slotted.
True, max magicka also increases sorcs damage, but if sorcs wanted to go for max DPS they would be better of stacking spell damage, which scales far better - like you see NBs do with weapon damage, b/c they can afford it b/c dodge roll and cloak mitigate 100% of non-AoE and non-DoT damage.
Cloak is somewhat of a hybrid between dodge and streak. It is both a defensive ability which mitigates 100% of direct damage and a gap opener. Ofc it has 1 cost per use trait. Streak has it too, and so does dodge roll. And shields pretty much too, b/c a single shield often does not last longer than a global cooldown.
Oh and btw, just in case you haven't noticed: you can reduce cost for dodge rolling and blocking and sprinting (all stamina tools) in CPs. There is no cost reduction for magicka defensive tools.
I know, what you want to say now: "but you can buff the potentcy of magicka defensive (shield & heal & streak ) abilities in CP system, but not those of stamina abilities." While you are technically correct, you again irgnore the larger picture and deeper implications. You can not only buff but also DEBUFF these magicka abilities, so effectively the buffs get canceled out. There is no way of debuffing the stamina defensive tools, but there are buffs. In addition, those stamina tools are already of a relativistic nature so their strength is independent of whether the opponent has increased damage through CPs. The same is NOT TRUE for magicka defensive abilities. They are based on absolute values and as such perform worse against CP buffed targets. That's why they need the buffs through CPs. But as we established above, these buffs get negated by their corresponding debuffing CPs.
To summarize: while block & dodge actually are not in need of an adjustment to the CP enviornment they receive a buff nontheless. On the other hand, shields & heals that are in need of an adjustment to the CP enviornment effectively receive none.
So it's pretty rich for block and dodge users to complain about shields.Anti_Virus wrote: »still doesn't address the hypocritical argument that you and other mag sorc mains make.
if you scream people need to L2P or adapt when their class/combo gets nerfed, then you too need to do the same if shield stacking gets adjusted.
That's not necessarily hypocracy! If the nerf was objectively warranted then telling those who unjustifiably complain about it to L2P is justifiable. Whereas what you are calling for are nerfs based on your subjective perception. Just because you deem something OP, doesn't make it OP. And a nerf would not be justifiable. Thus, saying it's a L2P issue is not justifiable.
Therefore, supporting one nerf and opposing another is not necessarily hpyocracy ... even if it fits your agenda.0