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Damage Shields really need to be reworked

  • Galarthor
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    what I'm trying to say is very simple. You have a room for improvement from what I experienced.. Of course everyone can have bad days, I understand that, and I also don't expect you to come on and 1v3 us(which would be an achievement worthy of respect in my eyes), but you died some easily preventable deaths, and I judged you based on your performance that day(and I honestly thought you are a part of that ball group). Now maybe you really are better than that and you were just having a very tired day.

    You see, I thought you were really that bad and made my assumptions on that alone. I am looking forward to fight you again, and hope we will have an equal fight this time. But untill then, don't judge me for not taking you seriously.

    Well I agree on the preventable death part. Sometimes I couldnt be bothered to shield up. Believe me I get where you get your impression of me from. But even when I did , 3 stamDKs coordianting their attacks and CCs cut through shields like a hot knife through butter.

    BUT:
    1) One observation alone does not really allow for definite conclusion. You have no way of telling if what you saw is normal or an anomaly.

    2) Even if I sucked as badly as you think I do, that does not invalidate anything I am saying. You don't need to be a pilot to design a plane. It's neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition. So you shouldn't reject somebody arguement simply because you perceive them as being bad - especially if they lay out their reasoning. Rejecting the same arguments based on their (flawed) reasoning on the other hand would be the way to go.

    I am also looking forward to some more fights in IC. It has been way too dead for way too long. In my opinion it's the best pvp in ESO. It's not as ball group / zerg infested as Cyro. It barely lags due to its low population. Fights are on a single target basis rather than groups bombing each other. It's basically open world. And it is not as structured as BGs, which gives you more freedom to play the way you like. I really miss the good old days when you had to be wary of gankers in the sewers and especially at the entrance to your base. I don't miss the proc-set meta from back then though! The current proc set meta is bad enough :tongue:
  • Minalan
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    Nightblades will never be happy until all of us are just one-shot free-AP piñatas.

    Damage this patch went way up with the new proc sets and sloads. A good NB can already stun and kill you instantly with one shield up. So we’re forced to stack, and SURPIRSE! They want to get rid of stacking now.

    No. There is no ‘constructive’ way to have this discussion in the face of such a dishonest and disingenuous motivation.

    Instead (for irony/satire sake - if you’re lacking half of a wit, google the word ‘satire’) Let’s discuss how to ‘balance’ cloak:

    * You shouldn’t be able to vanish within 8 meters of a player, this point blank reveal range is ridiculous.
    * How about we add a cloak debuff to the game? When defiled you can be seen perfectly 10-15 meters out?
    * How about we add streak stacking costs to cloak?

    But hey, nightblades have so much Defense and mitigation without cloak, they’ll be fine right? Fair is fair, and this is exactly what they want to do to sorcerers.

  • Killset
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    Galarthor wrote: »
    Killset wrote: »
    Rune Cage buff was too much. Ranged stuns that can’t be blocked or dodged shouldn’t do damage. Sorcs can line up some of the strongest burst in the game now. Especially with Caluurions.

    I disagree. The damage is like 2k to 3k in PvP. When you get hit by Flame Reach you take more damage than that and get stunned as well. True, Flame Reach is dodgeable and blockable but it also get spammed a lot more b/c it is the class' spammable. So the only ones that really feel a big difference to before are the perma blockers and perma dodgers. The extreme tanky ones that you need an army for to kill and the ones that basically negated 90% of sorc damage (anything that isn't a haunted curse). Sorcs are finally given a tool to deal with these extremely pesky builds and those players don't like it.

    Besides plenty of other classes got similar abilities.
    Fear on the NB goes through block and dodge and stuns also applying a slow and the morphs either fear more targets or add minor main reducing the incoming damage by 15%.

    Petrify of the DK stuns through block and dodge, deals damage, one of the morphs roots the target after the stun basically forcing it to CC break twice every 5 seconds which means the target spents 2 global cooldowns (GCD) CC-breaking while the DK only spents 1 GCD applying it. Which basically gives the DK an additional GCD over his target per 5 sec cycle. The other morph does not root but provides them with the highly sought after setting-off-balance.

    Templars got Eclipse and Spear (which by now travels so fast it's very difficult to dodge or block it)

    The only ones not having something similar are the Wardens. But they got access to basically everything else. No class has access to more utility and buffs / debuffs.

    Finally, the range is not really an issue b/c the fights in ESO are almost exclusively fought at melee range thanks to CC, roots, slows, and gap closers. If the sorc keeps you at a constant 25-28m range and you are suffering a lot of damage then just walk the other way and use Line of Sight. The range works both ways! if you sprint away in the opposite direction for just a few meters you will be out of harms way. And if you use LoS you force the sorc to come to you if he wants to kill you. Besides, if a ranged class constantly keeps you at max range then you were simply too cheap to slot a gap closer to invest into sprinting. In that case you deserve what you are getting.
    Killset wrote: »
    Shield stacking and streak make sorc a monster in open world. The Sorc class excells at what every other class tries to do. Put all their damage on you in 1-3 seconds. Meteor, Rune, Curse, Frag, and Endless Fury see to this. All from range. Having the ability to stack 3 shields and insanely good maneuverability is icing on the cake.

    Mobility on a sorc is actually pretty bad. Sprinting is far cheaper, faster, and more enduring than streak. It it also far superior for kiting b/c it allows you to hug walls, trees rocks, etc. quickly move up-/downholl, while streak bolts you forward in a straight line for 10m, stuns your before and after you use it and makes you very susceptible to gap closers which have a greater range, low cost, faster animation, work up-/downhill, even around corners (though the latter might be lag related) while also dealing damage to the streaking sorc. And sorry, if you dont slot a gap closer you don't deserve to catch and kill that sorc, the same way that sorc does not deserve to get away from you if he/she does not slot a gap opener aka streak.

    The sorc can only hit you with his/her full rotation if you don't pressure him/her. Otherwise the sorc will have to reapply the shields far to often for a clean rotation. So it's more of an issue on your end than on the end of the sorc. The only problemantic build I currently see on sorcs is that overload gank build. That's almost as lame as the monster set stacking gankblades back in the days (still requires more skill than the gankblades back then). That build definitely needs a nerf as soon as possible.
    Killset wrote: »
    I see a lot of Sorc advocates agree that they are super strong 1v1 now but shields lose effectiveness with the more people the sorc is fighting. But everyone loses effectiveness as people pile on. The argument that roll dodge mitigates 100% of damage simply isn’t true. There is way to many AOE’s and unblockable/undodgeable damage for that argument to carry much weight anymore. And sorcs are blowing up medium armor wearers in duels FYI.

    The opposite occurs more frequently: sorcs saying that the shields are too weak even in a 1on1 fight thanks to the constant power creep.

    The argument regarding dodge roll is very much true. It's a relative mitigation tool, just like block, while shields and heals are absolute mitigation tools which are capped by their tool tip. True, not every damage can be evaded using dodge, but (1) the majority of damage can and even with the proportion of damage getting through a single dodge roll mitigates far more damage than a shield or heal does in such a scenario. There is a reason you see magicka builds dodge when under heavy pressure but you don't see stamina build putting on a shield. (2) Stamina builds (or other classes in general) have several distinct mitigation tools at their disposal. Therefore, the damage getting through the dodge is at least partially mitigated by these tools. The same is not true for magicka sorcs. All they have are their shields. What ever gets through those shields hits their HP and is there to stay.
    Killset wrote: »
    A lot of people cheered when they nerfed gap closer damage saying that gap closers should only be a tool to close distances and not damage your opponent. Well the same can be said for Rune. It should only stun. And finally, why is it ok to have some of the best damage from range? This always seemed odd to me. Low risk high reward.

    That's also a bad arguement. You want a class that is supposed to rely on kiting to be required to go into melee range to apply a stun. The 2k or 3k damage you take from that build are not detrimental, but make it a viable alternative to Flame Reach and finally gives sorc a tool to deal with perma blockers and perma dodgers (the most cancerous builds in the game - especially when combined with proc sets).

    As for your damage from range arguement: see above, there are basically no ranged fights in ESO except between ranged builds at which point your argument is obsolete anyway.
    I’m not even sure where to start here. Let’s go. Javelin is blockable, dodgeable and is often shuffled. Petrify doesn’t do near the damage Rune does and has an 8 meter range. Fear doesn’t do any damage and requires the user to be in melee range. Magic classes roll dodge occasionally because they now have that luxury through CP power creep. You haven’t been able to run a well played magic class out of stamina in over a year.

    No class is better designed to deal with roll dodgers than Sorc and what cancerous roll dodging proc set are you referring to? Selenes? Veledrith? Magic has the strongest proc sets in the game in the form of Zaans, Caluurions, Skoria, and Overwhelming Surge.

    But what you are failing to see or choosing to ignore is that sorcs can now burst average 24k health builds from 85% to 0 with Meteor, Rune, Curse, and Endless Fury. The Frag proc is just icing on the cake. All while maintaining top level defense in the form of shield stacking and top level maneuverability in the form of streak. I’m not sure where you got the idea that I wanted sorcs to be in melee range to apply stuns. Now you are inventing things to support your argument. I said the Rune CC shouldn’t do damage. Especially on a class that got a massive inadvertent buff in the form of destro staff counting as two set pieces and having so many un-counterable, high damage skills, all of which can hit you in 1-2 GCD’s.

    And finally if you think there are no ranged fights in ESO than you are sadly mistaken or inexperienced.

  • Killset
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    Minalan wrote: »
    Nightblades will never be happy until all of us are just one-shot free-AP piñatas.

    Damage this patch went way up with the new proc sets and sloads. A good NB can already stun and kill you instantly with one shield up. So we’re forced to stack, and SURPIRSE! They want to get rid of stacking now.

    No. There is no ‘constructive’ way to have this discussion in the face of such a dishonest and disingenuous motivation.

    Instead (for irony/satire sake - if you’re lacking half of a wit, google the word ‘satire’) Let’s discuss how to ‘balance’ cloak:

    * You shouldn’t be able to vanish within 8 meters of a player, this point blank reveal range is ridiculous.
    * How about we add a cloak debuff to the game? When defiled you can be seen perfectly 10-15 meters out?
    * How about we add streak stacking costs to cloak?

    But hey, nightblades have so much Defense and mitigation without cloak, they’ll be fine right? Fair is fair, and this is exactly what they want to do to sorcerers.
    You have got to stop with the NB hate. This has nothing to do with NB or is it coming from NB exclusively. The only disingenuous thing I see here is pretending Sorcs are fine as is. Half of your own community admits something is off here. I play MagDK, MagPlar, Stamplar, and Stamblade and I assure you none of those classes can check all the boxes MagSorc can right now.


  • Minalan
    Minalan
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    Killset wrote: »
    Minalan wrote: »
    Nightblades will never be happy until all of us are just one-shot free-AP piñatas.

    Damage this patch went way up with the new proc sets and sloads. A good NB can already stun and kill you instantly with one shield up. So we’re forced to stack, and SURPIRSE! They want to get rid of stacking now.

    No. There is no ‘constructive’ way to have this discussion in the face of such a dishonest and disingenuous motivation.

    Instead (for irony/satire sake - if you’re lacking half of a wit, google the word ‘satire’) Let’s discuss how to ‘balance’ cloak:

    * You shouldn’t be able to vanish within 8 meters of a player, this point blank reveal range is ridiculous.
    * How about we add a cloak debuff to the game? When defiled you can be seen perfectly 10-15 meters out?
    * How about we add streak stacking costs to cloak?

    But hey, nightblades have so much Defense and mitigation without cloak, they’ll be fine right? Fair is fair, and this is exactly what they want to do to sorcerers.
    You have got to stop with the NB hate. This has nothing to do with NB or is it coming from NB exclusively. The only disingenuous thing I see here is pretending Sorcs are fine as is. Half of your own community admits something is off here. I play MagDK, MagPlar, Stamplar, and Stamblade and I assure you none of those classes can check all the boxes MagSorc can right now.

    I suggest you look up the word ‘satire’. I was poking fun at most of the changes suggested so far. Maybe I used words too hard for you to understand.

    The design problems are a lot deeper than just ‘omg nerf shields’. Other Sorcs see an ‘issue’ with a number of mechanics that need to change first that aren’t likely to change.

    Nobody here that actually plays a Sorc agrees with the suggestions made by the OP or most of the others. We may agree there’s an ‘issue’ but we all think the same thing about cloak too. But even the slightest nerf to cloak would likely render nightblade unplayable.

    I’m drawing a parallel here, an analogy. If that’s hard to understand, please look it up.
    Edited by Minalan on June 13, 2018 4:37AM
  • evoniee
    evoniee
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    imo Y shield (new cast) override X shield (older shield buff)
    so only 1 type shield stacking buff can active at 1 time, the skill is sorc shield, bone shield, resto staff shield, light armor shield
  • Vahrokh
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    Anti_Virus wrote: »
    make shields non-refreshable, that would be a good start. The problem lies when sorcs constantly refresh a ward on them making them really hard to kill.

    Yes, since they are already an inferior spec when it comes to tank spec, let's remove the only thing that keep them alive when they can't block.
  • Vahrokh
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    Saderis wrote: »
    Can't say much about pvp, but indeed in pve damage shields seems to me insanely overpowered (and this comes from magsorc main).
    Spammable, low cost 25k hp is way better then any avaible hot. Why even bother taking a tank or healer on a dungeon when everything can be done by 2-3 magdps. While it's true that magdps will always be behind stamdps (at least it should be) range(hiting a bit lower but from a far is by itself enough compensation for lower dps), kiting possibility, survivability (by a lot) is on the side of mag.

    No hating thou, I love my sorc as it now, but it just not feels fair.

    I don't feel fair that world firsts are achieved with 7 magblades in trial group. Apparently top groups don't agree with you.
  • Killset
    Killset
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    Minalan wrote: »
    Killset wrote: »
    Minalan wrote: »
    Nightblades will never be happy until all of us are just one-shot free-AP piñatas.

    Damage this patch went way up with the new proc sets and sloads. A good NB can already stun and kill you instantly with one shield up. So we’re forced to stack, and SURPIRSE! They want to get rid of stacking now.

    No. There is no ‘constructive’ way to have this discussion in the face of such a dishonest and disingenuous motivation.

    Instead (for irony/satire sake - if you’re lacking half of a wit, google the word ‘satire’) Let’s discuss how to ‘balance’ cloak:

    * You shouldn’t be able to vanish within 8 meters of a player, this point blank reveal range is ridiculous.
    * How about we add a cloak debuff to the game? When defiled you can be seen perfectly 10-15 meters out?
    * How about we add streak stacking costs to cloak?

    But hey, nightblades have so much Defense and mitigation without cloak, they’ll be fine right? Fair is fair, and this is exactly what they want to do to sorcerers.
    You have got to stop with the NB hate. This has nothing to do with NB or is it coming from NB exclusively. The only disingenuous thing I see here is pretending Sorcs are fine as is. Half of your own community admits something is off here. I play MagDK, MagPlar, Stamplar, and Stamblade and I assure you none of those classes can check all the boxes MagSorc can right now.

    I suggest you look up the word ‘satire’. I was poking fun at most of the changes suggested so far. Maybe I used words too hard for you to understand.

    The design problems are a lot deeper than just ‘omg nerf shields’. Other Sorcs see an ‘issue’ with a number of mechanics that need to change first that aren’t likely to change.

    Nobody here that actually plays a Sorc agrees with the suggestions made by the OP or most of the others. We may agree there’s an ‘issue’ but we all think the same thing about cloak too. But even the slightest nerf to cloak would likely render nightblade unplayable.

    I’m drawing a parallel here, an analogy. If that’s hard to understand, please look it up.
    Stop with the played out, unimaginative, “too hard for you to understand routine” it makes you sound even more petty. I learned very early in life that you can’t preface something with “satire” or “no disrespect” than just go ahead and say or write whatever you want and not expect people to comment or react. You clearly had an agenda when you typed those things and I commented.
  • Tonturri
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    - Shields cannot crit but cannot be crit

    - Shields cannot be defiled but have no major/minor buffs

    - Shields do not benefit from armor at all

    - Block prevents CC, but does not reduce incoming dmg to shields and still drains stamina

    - Have a CP star dedicated to dealing more dmg to shields that scales pretty well. Not amazing, but well.

    - Oblivion dmg/shieldbreaker

    - Disappears after 6/10 sec

    - Doesn't actually heal, so if the target is in execute range a shield won't take them out of it. You will still deal high damage with execute skills.

    - Only scales off magicka (can be both a pro and a con)

    I know I've restated stuff that popped up earlier in the thread. Bear with me here.

    So, with all of these in mind - there seems to be a direct conflict between how shields function and how...well, the rest of the game functions. Crit resist, critting, armor, blocking, etc are (supposedly?) supposed to be key defensive mechanics. Armor buffs are important, people slot 1 piece chudan and/or 1 piece pirate skeleton for more armor.

    All these things combined put sorcerer in an odd spot in both pve and pvp. In pve, my sorc makes a pretty awful tank because my two main class defense mechanics - kiting and shields - totally negate/prevent the usage of blocking and armor res. Furthermore, to tank without getting 1-shot I need a not-insignificant amount of health, which of course means lower magicka - often to the point where there's no value in slotting a shield in the first place. Same for pvp, where I'd /like/ to use other defensive mechanics...but if I invested in them enough that they'd be worth using more, my shields would become significantly weaker (and Streak/BoL has its own problems). We also don't have a class spammable like dk/temp/warden/NB (putting aside for now that some stamina versions don't, but temp has one for both stam and mag, as does NB and warden - not commenting on how good they are of course). So sorcerers are forced to rely on weapon skills - we can't get away with front barring 2h for FW, not only because our stam is low but because then we'd be even more limited on how to apply pressure. Can't really get away with 1h/shield either.

    The new daedric armor thingy is cool - holy balls of lightning 20% more damage blocked?! The new passive that reduces the cost of my next skill by 15% (GOOD LORD 15% THAT'S MASSIVE) look nice...but what/when will I actually be blocking? What could I possibly cast after blocking to assist in tanking? What possible defensive skill might my class have that I could cast and benefit from the reduced cost after blocking. A shield, perhaps?! Alas! Shields don't play nice with blocking.

    We've gotten buffs to blocking that, say, if you gave them to DK or templar.../They'd be strong as heck/. But on a sorc...I haven't seen a single person using the daedric armor skill, and I haven't seen an increase in blocking sorcs (except when they'd normally block of course - pretty rarely).

    Nightblades on the other hand are a lovely thing. They can shield up and then use their multitudinous (compared to sorc's options anyway xD) class heals/HoTs to heal up under the shield. That's pretty sweet.

    So how do we fix this? First..Fix outlier skills - specifically Harness Magicka. The sustain it gives varies far too wildly. Give that morph a different bonus, but that's a whole 'nother thread so I won't go into it.

    Next, take a look at oblivion damage. It's too strong. It totally ignores a massive chunk of defense mechanics - you can do nothing but heal it up. If it's going to stay the way it is, there need to be more HoTs available, otherwise it has to be dialed back. It ignores shields, block, armor, and if you want to get picky sometimes dodge roll as well (*cough* sloads *cough*). This is far too many advantages for one damage type that's available the way it is.

    Effects per skill needs to be looked at. What is a skill meant to do? How many different things does it do and how strong are those things? Best example, incap: stuns, defiles, boosts damage by % for a duration, skill tree passives. What if it only stunned and boosted damage? Or only stunned and defiled, but didn't boost damage? Apply the same way of thinking to other skills...such as Overload >.> Rune Prison too - undodgeable vs unblockable vs dmg vs range vs cast time, and so forth. Some skills do far too much while others do far too little/are effectively useless (RIP Total Dark).

    Lastly...and this is the hard part - rework how shields interact with all other defensive mechanics. This post is already long enough, but it needs to have some sort of interaction with armor, blocking, etc. That Psijic HoT needs to allow players to use it on theirselves (>.> Okay maybe not but...magicka HoTs not tied to resto staff? Pls? Something?). Have block just...not work while a shield is up. My main gripe at least is that it does effectively nothing in PvE to hold block while a shield is up, but hits still cost you stamina. It'd be nice if I could hold block, but not be charged stam until the shield is depleted - a shield would make a nice 'buffer' or a 'reduce incoming attack damage by x', and then block the rest/overflow damage. Not sure how to deal with CCs in that scenario...it'd be odd in PvP and OP to block CCs without a stamina cost. However, issues arise in higher end pve where block is required to survive hits - a small shield cast by a PvE-tank setup isn't big enough to justify dropping block...and then the overflow damage will still hurt quite a bit.

    Maybe reduce shield strength across the board, but allow 'em to benefit from armor res somehow. Say your average sorc shield is 10k. Average sorc armor is 7-10k, but let's go with 10k for simplicity. There's an incoming 10k hit. Reducing shield strength by 20% will make the shield absorb 8k, with 2k overflow. However, if shields benefitted from armor along with reducing the value of said shield, the sorc would take...approximately the same damage (10k armor is somewhere between 14 and 17% reduction). Admittedly this is a very, very specific example and I'm unsure how to make it scale properly in a wider selection of scenarios, but a TLDR of my line of thinking is that shield strength could be reduced a percentage proportionate to how much more mitigation the sorc would get from suddenly benefitting from armor. This would scale in that in order for the sorc to get more armor, they'd have to give up forms of mitigation - most likely magicka, thus reducing the strength of the shield and ensuring that you don't have sorcs with the same amount of sustain and shield value suddenly benfitting from a big chunk of extra tankiness. If a sorc wanted to put on heavy armor, he/she could, but would have fewer casts, or the sorc could get more health at the cost of shield strength but it wouldn't be a total waste of stats. I'm sure there would be an outlier where the scenario I mention above occurs where some min/maxer figures out how to get everything they got now + extra mitigation, but...I currently see no way for that to happen.

    I believe this change would give sorcs extra tankiness in some areas, stay the same in other areas, and make them a tad squshier in even more 'other areas', and of course I imagine it'd have to be accompanied by more than just these 1-2 changes. Again, I'm not entirely sure exactly to implement block changes, but I'm pretty sure a shield-armorres-scaling change is well within the realm of possibility and viability.


    Additional section on block. Just my musings.
    So! If block just outright worked on shields, what would happen? A shield disappears in 6/10 seconds anyway, and classes that use shields aren't too terribly invested in blocking or even able to block regularly (partially due to class mechanics - like sorcs having no class spammable that'd let them run sword/shield), but also due to being magicka and needing that stam for CC breaking, etc.

    So it's not like we'd suddenly see sorcerers running around holding block if block mitigation suddenly worked on shields. I don't see any way this could happen due to the above 'features' that accompany the usage of shields and what increases shield strength. However, this would let sorcs get more use out of the daedric armor 20%extra dmg blocked and decrease cost of blocking.

    This might have been a problem back when shields lasted a long time, but that's no longer the case - I think players are likely to WANT to make use of the shield, instead of blocking as much as possible in order to reduce incoming dmg to the shield, because of shield left over once the duration is up is wasted magicka/mitigation/stam from blocking.

    What I do think this will do is make sorc tanks much more viable, because they'll be able to 1) make use of their armor (which gives a large chunk of mitigation) and 2) block without wasting resources. I imagine they won't have as much support as DKs with their ~5K(?) ish group shield, increased incoming healing and (more importantly) the ability to regen stam while blocking, but I do think/hope they'll be a viable off tank, or a 'oh darn there's no DK available but this isn't a progression run' pick.
    THis whole thing would also add some much needed synergy between the new Persistance passive that reduces skill cost by 15% after blocking and...the rest of sorc's kit. I tried to write this post in a polite manner, but I admit to thinking some very unkind things about ZOS when they gave SORC of all possible glasses a blocking related passive, especially considering the current state of sorc.

    Anywho, this is just rambling that wasn't really meant to go anywhere. If you've gotten this far, thanks for reading. Please do critque, especially the block part.
  • Minalan
    Minalan
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    Killset wrote: »
    Minalan wrote: »
    Killset wrote: »
    Minalan wrote: »
    Nightblades will never be happy until all of us are just one-shot free-AP piñatas.

    Damage this patch went way up with the new proc sets and sloads. A good NB can already stun and kill you instantly with one shield up. So we’re forced to stack, and SURPIRSE! They want to get rid of stacking now.

    No. There is no ‘constructive’ way to have this discussion in the face of such a dishonest and disingenuous motivation.

    Instead (for irony/satire sake - if you’re lacking half of a wit, google the word ‘satire’) Let’s discuss how to ‘balance’ cloak:

    * You shouldn’t be able to vanish within 8 meters of a player, this point blank reveal range is ridiculous.
    * How about we add a cloak debuff to the game? When defiled you can be seen perfectly 10-15 meters out?
    * How about we add streak stacking costs to cloak?

    But hey, nightblades have so much Defense and mitigation without cloak, they’ll be fine right? Fair is fair, and this is exactly what they want to do to sorcerers.
    You have got to stop with the NB hate. This has nothing to do with NB or is it coming from NB exclusively. The only disingenuous thing I see here is pretending Sorcs are fine as is. Half of your own community admits something is off here. I play MagDK, MagPlar, Stamplar, and Stamblade and I assure you none of those classes can check all the boxes MagSorc can right now.

    I suggest you look up the word ‘satire’. I was poking fun at most of the changes suggested so far. Maybe I used words too hard for you to understand.

    The design problems are a lot deeper than just ‘omg nerf shields’. Other Sorcs see an ‘issue’ with a number of mechanics that need to change first that aren’t likely to change.

    Nobody here that actually plays a Sorc agrees with the suggestions made by the OP or most of the others. We may agree there’s an ‘issue’ but we all think the same thing about cloak too. But even the slightest nerf to cloak would likely render nightblade unplayable.

    I’m drawing a parallel here, an analogy. If that’s hard to understand, please look it up.
    Stop with the played out, unimaginative, “too hard for you to understand routine” it makes you sound even more petty. I learned very early in life that you can’t preface something with “satire” or “no disrespect” than just go ahead and say or write whatever you want and not expect people to comment or react. You clearly had an agenda when you typed those things and I commented.

    You’re understandably upset. You, just like many other “I play every class including Sorc and I think it needs a nerf” players in the past - just got exposed as nightblade main. Sure you play ‘every class’ but at least we know which one you’re worried about the most when you get triggered by a joke.

    That’s okay man. I’m biased pro Sorc and honest about it. I have a nightblade too but I don’t even pretend to enjoy playing it as much.
  • Anti_Virus
    Anti_Virus
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    Minalan wrote: »
    Killset wrote: »
    Minalan wrote: »
    Killset wrote: »
    Minalan wrote: »
    Nightblades will never be happy until all of us are just one-shot free-AP piñatas.

    Damage this patch went way up with the new proc sets and sloads. A good NB can already stun and kill you instantly with one shield up. So we’re forced to stack, and SURPIRSE! They want to get rid of stacking now.

    No. There is no ‘constructive’ way to have this discussion in the face of such a dishonest and disingenuous motivation.

    Instead (for irony/satire sake - if you’re lacking half of a wit, google the word ‘satire’) Let’s discuss how to ‘balance’ cloak:

    * You shouldn’t be able to vanish within 8 meters of a player, this point blank reveal range is ridiculous.
    * How about we add a cloak debuff to the game? When defiled you can be seen perfectly 10-15 meters out?
    * How about we add streak stacking costs to cloak?

    But hey, nightblades have so much Defense and mitigation without cloak, they’ll be fine right? Fair is fair, and this is exactly what they want to do to sorcerers.
    You have got to stop with the NB hate. This has nothing to do with NB or is it coming from NB exclusively. The only disingenuous thing I see here is pretending Sorcs are fine as is. Half of your own community admits something is off here. I play MagDK, MagPlar, Stamplar, and Stamblade and I assure you none of those classes can check all the boxes MagSorc can right now.

    I suggest you look up the word ‘satire’. I was poking fun at most of the changes suggested so far. Maybe I used words too hard for you to understand.

    The design problems are a lot deeper than just ‘omg nerf shields’. Other Sorcs see an ‘issue’ with a number of mechanics that need to change first that aren’t likely to change.

    Nobody here that actually plays a Sorc agrees with the suggestions made by the OP or most of the others. We may agree there’s an ‘issue’ but we all think the same thing about cloak too. But even the slightest nerf to cloak would likely render nightblade unplayable.

    I’m drawing a parallel here, an analogy. If that’s hard to understand, please look it up.
    Stop with the played out, unimaginative, “too hard for you to understand routine” it makes you sound even pettier. I learned very early in life that you can’t preface something with “satire” or “no disrespect” then just go ahead and say or write whatever you want and not expect people to comment or react. You clearly had an agenda when you typed those things and I commented.

    You’re understandably upset. You, just like many other “I play every class including Sorc and I think it needs a nerf” players in the past - just got exposed as nightblade main. Sure you play ‘every class’ but at least we know which one you’re worried about the most when you get triggered by a joke.

    That’s okay man. I’m biased pro Sorc and honest about it. I have a nightblade too but I don’t even pretend to enjoy playing it as much.

    and that's the problem just like anti sorc NBs, your opinion also cannot be taken seriously.
    Power Wealth And Influence.
  • Wing
    Wing
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    I would like them to be more like monster damage shields.

    where 50% of the damage is sent to the shield and 50% sent to the person, at that point they could probably last a bit longer or be a bit stronger without being such a pain, it would also make pen and crit not useless because your still hitting the sorc.

    could also be nice for tanks or what not as you would have another source of mitigation.
    ESO player since beta.
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    ( ^_^ )

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    DK one trick
  • Minalan
    Minalan
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    Anti_Virus wrote: »
    Minalan wrote: »
    Killset wrote: »
    Minalan wrote: »
    Killset wrote: »
    Minalan wrote: »
    Nightblades will never be happy until all of us are just one-shot free-AP piñatas.

    Damage this patch went way up with the new proc sets and sloads. A good NB can already stun and kill you instantly with one shield up. So we’re forced to stack, and SURPIRSE! They want to get rid of stacking now.

    No. There is no ‘constructive’ way to have this discussion in the face of such a dishonest and disingenuous motivation.

    Instead (for irony/satire sake - if you’re lacking half of a wit, google the word ‘satire’) Let’s discuss how to ‘balance’ cloak:

    * You shouldn’t be able to vanish within 8 meters of a player, this point blank reveal range is ridiculous.
    * How about we add a cloak debuff to the game? When defiled you can be seen perfectly 10-15 meters out?
    * How about we add streak stacking costs to cloak?

    But hey, nightblades have so much Defense and mitigation without cloak, they’ll be fine right? Fair is fair, and this is exactly what they want to do to sorcerers.
    You have got to stop with the NB hate. This has nothing to do with NB or is it coming from NB exclusively. The only disingenuous thing I see here is pretending Sorcs are fine as is. Half of your own community admits something is off here. I play MagDK, MagPlar, Stamplar, and Stamblade and I assure you none of those classes can check all the boxes MagSorc can right now.

    I suggest you look up the word ‘satire’. I was poking fun at most of the changes suggested so far. Maybe I used words too hard for you to understand.

    The design problems are a lot deeper than just ‘omg nerf shields’. Other Sorcs see an ‘issue’ with a number of mechanics that need to change first that aren’t likely to change.

    Nobody here that actually plays a Sorc agrees with the suggestions made by the OP or most of the others. We may agree there’s an ‘issue’ but we all think the same thing about cloak too. But even the slightest nerf to cloak would likely render nightblade unplayable.

    I’m drawing a parallel here, an analogy. If that’s hard to understand, please look it up.
    Stop with the played out, unimaginative, “too hard for you to understand routine” it makes you sound even pettier. I learned very early in life that you can’t preface something with “satire” or “no disrespect” then just go ahead and say or write whatever you want and not expect people to comment or react. You clearly had an agenda when you typed those things and I commented.

    You’re understandably upset. You, just like many other “I play every class including Sorc and I think it needs a nerf” players in the past - just got exposed as nightblade main. Sure you play ‘every class’ but at least we know which one you’re worried about the most when you get triggered by a joke.

    That’s okay man. I’m biased pro Sorc and honest about it. I have a nightblade too but I don’t even pretend to enjoy playing it as much.

    and that's the problem just like anti sorc NBs, your opinion also cannot be taken seriously.

    Believe it or not, I don’t think you nightblade guys need any nerfs. Fixing the crit heal bug is all I believe needed to happen, and it did. You’re fine.

    My post above was meant to be comedy, and it mirrored everything nightblade posters here wanted to happen to shields - class destroying changes basically. It didn’t hit home until I copy/pasted the shield nerfs, and replaced in the word ‘cloak’.
  • bardx86
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    Wing wrote: »
    I would like them to be more like monster damage shields.

    where 50% of the damage is sent to the shield and 50% sent to the person, at that point they could probably last a bit longer or be a bit stronger without being such a pain, it would also make pen and crit not useless because your still hitting the sorc.

    could also be nice for tanks or what not as you would have another source of mitigation.

    and how do we mitigate that 50% damage without any heals worth a dam?
  • Gprime31
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    The answer IS and always has been..... make shields CRITABLE.... but zos is ignorant to this.... like many things
  • bardx86
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    Gprime31 wrote: »
    The answer IS and always has been..... make shields CRITABLE.... but zos is ignorant to this.... like many things

    So you make them critable without any resistance or armor mitigation? Who's ignorant here? That would be a terrible idea. Sorc's would get massacred.
  • Gprime31
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    bardx86 wrote: »
    Gprime31 wrote: »
    The answer IS and always has been..... make shields CRITABLE.... but zos is ignorant to this.... like many things

    So you make them critable without any resistance or armor mitigation? Who's ignorant here? That would be a terrible idea. Sorc's would get massacred.

    So it would be an aid... not a crutch.. it’s won’t bother good players.
  • Biro123
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    Tonturri wrote: »
    - Shields cannot crit but cannot be crit

    - Shields cannot be defiled but have no major/minor buffs

    - Shields do not benefit from armor at all

    - Block prevents CC, but does not reduce incoming dmg to shields and still drains stamina

    - Have a CP star dedicated to dealing more dmg to shields that scales pretty well. Not amazing, but well.

    - Oblivion dmg/shieldbreaker

    - Disappears after 6/10 sec

    - Doesn't actually heal, so if the target is in execute range a shield won't take them out of it. You will still deal high damage with execute skills.

    - Only scales off magicka (can be both a pro and a con)

    I know I've restated stuff that popped up earlier in the thread. Bear with me here.

    So, with all of these in mind - there seems to be a direct conflict between how shields function and how...well, the rest of the game functions. Crit resist, critting, armor, blocking, etc are (supposedly?) supposed to be key defensive mechanics. Armor buffs are important, people slot 1 piece chudan and/or 1 piece pirate skeleton for more armor.

    All these things combined put sorcerer in an odd spot in both pve and pvp. In pve, my sorc makes a pretty awful tank because my two main class defense mechanics - kiting and shields - totally negate/prevent the usage of blocking and armor res. Furthermore, to tank without getting 1-shot I need a not-insignificant amount of health, which of course means lower magicka - often to the point where there's no value in slotting a shield in the first place. Same for pvp, where I'd /like/ to use other defensive mechanics...but if I invested in them enough that they'd be worth using more, my shields would become significantly weaker (and Streak/BoL has its own problems). We also don't have a class spammable like dk/temp/warden/NB (putting aside for now that some stamina versions don't, but temp has one for both stam and mag, as does NB and warden - not commenting on how good they are of course). So sorcerers are forced to rely on weapon skills - we can't get away with front barring 2h for FW, not only because our stam is low but because then we'd be even more limited on how to apply pressure. Can't really get away with 1h/shield either.

    The new daedric armor thingy is cool - holy balls of lightning 20% more damage blocked?! The new passive that reduces the cost of my next skill by 15% (GOOD LORD 15% THAT'S MASSIVE) look nice...but what/when will I actually be blocking? What could I possibly cast after blocking to assist in tanking? What possible defensive skill might my class have that I could cast and benefit from the reduced cost after blocking. A shield, perhaps?! Alas! Shields don't play nice with blocking.

    We've gotten buffs to blocking that, say, if you gave them to DK or templar.../They'd be strong as heck/. But on a sorc...I haven't seen a single person using the daedric armor skill, and I haven't seen an increase in blocking sorcs (except when they'd normally block of course - pretty rarely).

    Nightblades on the other hand are a lovely thing. They can shield up and then use their multitudinous (compared to sorc's options anyway xD) class heals/HoTs to heal up under the shield. That's pretty sweet.

    So how do we fix this? First..Fix outlier skills - specifically Harness Magicka. The sustain it gives varies far too wildly. Give that morph a different bonus, but that's a whole 'nother thread so I won't go into it.

    Next, take a look at oblivion damage. It's too strong. It totally ignores a massive chunk of defense mechanics - you can do nothing but heal it up. If it's going to stay the way it is, there need to be more HoTs available, otherwise it has to be dialed back. It ignores shields, block, armor, and if you want to get picky sometimes dodge roll as well (*cough* sloads *cough*). This is far too many advantages for one damage type that's available the way it is.

    Effects per skill needs to be looked at. What is a skill meant to do? How many different things does it do and how strong are those things? Best example, incap: stuns, defiles, boosts damage by % for a duration, skill tree passives. What if it only stunned and boosted damage? Or only stunned and defiled, but didn't boost damage? Apply the same way of thinking to other skills...such as Overload >.> Rune Prison too - undodgeable vs unblockable vs dmg vs range vs cast time, and so forth. Some skills do far too much while others do far too little/are effectively useless (RIP Total Dark).

    Lastly...and this is the hard part - rework how shields interact with all other defensive mechanics. This post is already long enough, but it needs to have some sort of interaction with armor, blocking, etc. That Psijic HoT needs to allow players to use it on theirselves (>.> Okay maybe not but...magicka HoTs not tied to resto staff? Pls? Something?). Have block just...not work while a shield is up. My main gripe at least is that it does effectively nothing in PvE to hold block while a shield is up, but hits still cost you stamina. It'd be nice if I could hold block, but not be charged stam until the shield is depleted - a shield would make a nice 'buffer' or a 'reduce incoming attack damage by x', and then block the rest/overflow damage. Not sure how to deal with CCs in that scenario...it'd be odd in PvP and OP to block CCs without a stamina cost. However, issues arise in higher end pve where block is required to survive hits - a small shield cast by a PvE-tank setup isn't big enough to justify dropping block...and then the overflow damage will still hurt quite a bit.

    Maybe reduce shield strength across the board, but allow 'em to benefit from armor res somehow. Say your average sorc shield is 10k. Average sorc armor is 7-10k, but let's go with 10k for simplicity. There's an incoming 10k hit. Reducing shield strength by 20% will make the shield absorb 8k, with 2k overflow. However, if shields benefitted from armor along with reducing the value of said shield, the sorc would take...approximately the same damage (10k armor is somewhere between 14 and 17% reduction). Admittedly this is a very, very specific example and I'm unsure how to make it scale properly in a wider selection of scenarios, but a TLDR of my line of thinking is that shield strength could be reduced a percentage proportionate to how much more mitigation the sorc would get from suddenly benefitting from armor. This would scale in that in order for the sorc to get more armor, they'd have to give up forms of mitigation - most likely magicka, thus reducing the strength of the shield and ensuring that you don't have sorcs with the same amount of sustain and shield value suddenly benfitting from a big chunk of extra tankiness. If a sorc wanted to put on heavy armor, he/she could, but would have fewer casts, or the sorc could get more health at the cost of shield strength but it wouldn't be a total waste of stats. I'm sure there would be an outlier where the scenario I mention above occurs where some min/maxer figures out how to get everything they got now + extra mitigation, but...I currently see no way for that to happen.

    I believe this change would give sorcs extra tankiness in some areas, stay the same in other areas, and make them a tad squshier in even more 'other areas', and of course I imagine it'd have to be accompanied by more than just these 1-2 changes. Again, I'm not entirely sure exactly to implement block changes, but I'm pretty sure a shield-armorres-scaling change is well within the realm of possibility and viability.


    Additional section on block. Just my musings.
    So! If block just outright worked on shields, what would happen? A shield disappears in 6/10 seconds anyway, and classes that use shields aren't too terribly invested in blocking or even able to block regularly (partially due to class mechanics - like sorcs having no class spammable that'd let them run sword/shield), but also due to being magicka and needing that stam for CC breaking, etc.

    So it's not like we'd suddenly see sorcerers running around holding block if block mitigation suddenly worked on shields. I don't see any way this could happen due to the above 'features' that accompany the usage of shields and what increases shield strength. However, this would let sorcs get more use out of the daedric armor 20%extra dmg blocked and decrease cost of blocking.

    This might have been a problem back when shields lasted a long time, but that's no longer the case - I think players are likely to WANT to make use of the shield, instead of blocking as much as possible in order to reduce incoming dmg to the shield, because of shield left over once the duration is up is wasted magicka/mitigation/stam from blocking.

    What I do think this will do is make sorc tanks much more viable, because they'll be able to 1) make use of their armor (which gives a large chunk of mitigation) and 2) block without wasting resources. I imagine they won't have as much support as DKs with their ~5K(?) ish group shield, increased incoming healing and (more importantly) the ability to regen stam while blocking, but I do think/hope they'll be a viable off tank, or a 'oh darn there's no DK available but this isn't a progression run' pick.
    THis whole thing would also add some much needed synergy between the new Persistance passive that reduces skill cost by 15% after blocking and...the rest of sorc's kit. I tried to write this post in a polite manner, but I admit to thinking some very unkind things about ZOS when they gave SORC of all possible glasses a blocking related passive, especially considering the current state of sorc.

    Anywho, this is just rambling that wasn't really meant to go anywhere. If you've gotten this far, thanks for reading. Please do critque, especially the block part.

    I like your thinking
    Minalan owes me a beer.

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  • Oreyn_Bearclaw
    Oreyn_Bearclaw
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    Daus wrote: »
    This is in combat and mechanics section because damage shields are OP in every aspect of this game. It's the reason why magicka has insane survivability in comparison to stamina in PvE, and the fact that magSorcs can add 20k+ effective health in 2 seconds by alternating between hardened ward and harness magicka while in PvP is way too strong.

    I do not have the solution, but I can offer a few ideas:

    1) Make them critable, but have them affected by the users mitigation.

    2) Have them affected by defile.

    3) Increase the cost of a following damage shield by 33% if applied again within 5 seconds.

    I would not suggest doing both suggestion 1 and 2 because that would render damage shields useless. Combining either 1 or 2 with 3 would be fine though.

    Yes, I'm expecting to be zerged by QQing magsorcs for stating the obvious, but this is long overdue and we will see posts like this throughout the entire lifetime of ESO until something is done about it.

    Your premise is flawed, because shields are simply not OP. There are far better forms of mitigating damage in this game than shield stacking. I am not saying its not a powerful option, but acting like its more powerful than perma block or perma dodge is completely laughable. Shields are fairly powerful 1v1, but they get weak very quickly when out numbered. If your goal is to mitigate damage from multiple sources simultaneously, shields are about the worst option in the game.

    Also, you seem to be missing a very important distinction about how shields operate. A person with 25k health and 15k shields does not have effective health of 40k. You suggest all the advantages to shields, but you forget the most obvious draw backs.

    First is the shields are an active Defense that is very expensive. If you are out numbered 3 to 1, all you are doing is spamming shield, which doesnt last forever. Sure they can be good for an escape, but there is a reason that mag sorcs are nowhere near the top for 1vX builds.

    Second, two words. Oblivion Damage.

    Third, and far more important, is that you cannot mitigate damage against shields by blocking. Sure you cant crit against them, but the trade off is, I cant mitigate the damage you do to them by blocking. In fact, its worse than that. If you hit me with my shields up and I block, not only do I not get any benefit from the block, I actually lose stamina in the process. People always seem to forget this part.

    TLDR: OP, I disagree with basically everything you said.
    Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on June 13, 2018 7:59PM
  • Ragnarock41
    Ragnarock41
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    Galarthor wrote: »
    what I'm trying to say is very simple. You have a room for improvement from what I experienced.. Of course everyone can have bad days, I understand that, and I also don't expect you to come on and 1v3 us(which would be an achievement worthy of respect in my eyes), but you died some easily preventable deaths, and I judged you based on your performance that day(and I honestly thought you are a part of that ball group). Now maybe you really are better than that and you were just having a very tired day.

    You see, I thought you were really that bad and made my assumptions on that alone. I am looking forward to fight you again, and hope we will have an equal fight this time. But untill then, don't judge me for not taking you seriously.

    Well I agree on the preventable death part. Sometimes I couldnt be bothered to shield up. Believe me I get where you get your impression of me from. But even when I did , 3 stamDKs coordianting their attacks and CCs cut through shields like a hot knife through butter.

    BUT:
    1) One observation alone does not really allow for definite conclusion. You have no way of telling if what you saw is normal or an anomaly.

    2) Even if I sucked as badly as you think I do, that does not invalidate anything I am saying. You don't need to be a pilot to design a plane. It's neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition. So you shouldn't reject somebody arguement simply because you perceive them as being bad - especially if they lay out their reasoning. Rejecting the same arguments based on their (flawed) reasoning on the other hand would be the way to go.

    I am also looking forward to some more fights in IC. It has been way too dead for way too long. In my opinion it's the best pvp in ESO. It's not as ball group / zerg infested as Cyro. It barely lags due to its low population. Fights are on a single target basis rather than groups bombing each other. It's basically open world. And it is not as structured as BGs, which gives you more freedom to play the way you like. I really miss the good old days when you had to be wary of gankers in the sewers and especially at the entrance to your base. I don't miss the proc-set meta from back then though! The current proc set meta is bad enough :tongue:

    IC is definitely the best place for PvP, especially the sewers. the district system has its own problems, but other than that its fantastic. I'm also hoping the proc meta ends over soon, and never shows its ugly head ever again.
    Edited by Ragnarock41 on June 13, 2018 9:52PM
  • usmguy1234
    usmguy1234
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    Solariken wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Shields need soft counters, stop being in denial. So does cloak whilst we are at it, and then nerf/remove the hard counters, on everything. Block has it, purge has it, reflects have it, heals have it though they went OTT. So shields need soft counters too.

    Hardcounters suck both ways, either it completely kills the defense, and its too sacrificial to run solo, so only zergs can run it and use each other to fill their weaknesses.

    Shields do need a nerf, and whilst NB has other defenses, sorcs other defense which should be mobility, (just like DKs should be mitigation, or templars, healing, and NBs hiding,) needs a buff on the mag end. That would help on both 1v1 fairness, and 1vX for not being melted.

    @Maulkin not trying to poke the bear here but @ak_pvp nailed it. Everyone in here downplaying the effectiveness of shields is conveniently forgetting that Sorc in particular has an absolutely uber control/kite/mobility kit but unfortunately stacking max magicka and using 2+ shields allows near complete circumvention of having to worry about those strategies. Throw in Undeath and/or a Light's Champ with Temporal Guard and those wards turn into Kevlar. Shields getting a soft counter would hopefully encourage a more appropriate playstyle for certain classes rather than just facetanking and laughing at everything that is thrown at them.

    Lol streak is a joke. Why:

    Stacking cost
    Distance is less than any gap closer
    Sorcs get immobilized for a short time after the cast
    Doesn't work up any incline
    Is directional

    Do you know the cost for using this "op" skill 3 times in a row costs a staggering 9k magicka for the third use alone?

    Add in the cost of "shield spamming" and you've got huge sustain issues.

    I'm seriously going with l2p on this one.
    Zaghigoth- Orc Stamplar
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    Disclaimer: My comments are a little sarcasm mixed with truth. If you can't handle that don't respond to me.

  • Galarthor
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    Killset wrote: »
    I’m not even sure where to start here. Let’s go. Javelin is blockable, dodgeable and is often shuffled. Petrify doesn’t do near the damage Rune does and has an 8 meter range. Fear doesn’t do any damage and requires the user to be in melee range. Magic classes roll dodge occasionally because they now have that luxury through CP power creep. You haven’t been able to run a well played magic class out of stamina in over a year.

    You accuse me of failing to see or ignoring things when that's exactly what you are doing.
    I never said Javelin is unblockable and undodgeable by design, rather I argued that because of its high velocity it effectively is - at least against targets that are not perma blocking or perma dodging. But in exchange templars still got eclipse that not only cripples Ranged Builds but also either heals the Templar or deals damage to multiple targets.

    Petrify is a melee stun, but since DKs usually wanna be in melee range that's not really an issue. They got a class gap closers and unparalleled capabilities of keeping enemies in melee range. So applying this stun (despite it being melee) is not an issue.

    Fear also melee, but AoE and additionally applying a 50% slow. The morphs either turn it into an even stronger AoE CC (up to 12 people with one GCD) or apply minor maim reducing the damage dealt by the enemy by 15%.

    You clearly havent read anything I wrote. You are just here to give yourself an edge in the game by creating threads and calling for nerfs.
    Killset wrote: »
    No class is better designed to deal with roll dodgers than Sorc and what cancerous roll dodging proc set are you referring to? Selenes? Veledrith? Magic has the strongest proc sets in the game in the form of Zaans, Caluurions, Skoria, and Overwhelming Surge.

    This was more of a general statement that both perma-blocking and perma-dodging are even more cancerous when they are equipping proc sets that allow them to keep blocking or dodging b/c a large proportion of thedamage is dealt passively via proc sets rather than actively via skills. One set that is very cancerous on both is for example sloads. Another one, since we are on the subject of magSorcs, is Shield Breaker, which is arguably the most broken set in the game b/c it basically allows you to melt a specific class by only using light attacks. Thank god the stamina proc meta from back in the days is gone and I hope it will never return b/c those one-shots from sneak over ages was ridiculous and as cancerous to the game as Shield Breaker is to sorcs.
    Killset wrote: »
    But what you are failing to see or choosing to ignore is that sorcs can now burst average 24k health builds from 85% to 0 with Meteor, Rune, Curse, and Endless Fury. The Frag proc is just icing on the cake. All while maintaining top level defense in the form of shield stacking and top level maneuverability in the form of streak. I’m not sure where you got the idea that I wanted sorcs to be in melee range to apply stuns. Now you are inventing things to support your argument. I said the Rune CC shouldn’t do damage. Especially on a class that got a massive inadvertent buff in the form of destro staff counting as two set pieces and having so many un-counterable, high damage skills, all of which can hit you in 1-2 GCD’s.

    You are describing a 4 Global Cooldowns long rotation. In addition you claim the sorc is constantly shield stacking which implies that the sorc is constantly using 2 shields at the same time. So that's a 6 sec rotation. That's only possible if you fail to CC or pressure the sorc. Otherwise the sorc will be busy reapplying his or her shields, running / streaking. If you manage to land just 1 stun in those 6 sec his/her rotation will be interupted and the burst wont be timed.

    Is your 24k Hp guy perhaps wearing well-fitted gear instead of impen so he can dodge like crazy and got crit?

    The 2-3k damage from rune cage is less than the damage you would take from a sorc stunning you with Flame Reach and it's really not that much damage. If you are hell-bent on removing the damage then you need to add something else. You should also take a look at Petrify then b/c DKs can do the same thing. And their meteors hurt more. Instead of haunted curse burst you will already have lower HP b/c of their constant pressure but the net result is the same. You would die in the same amount of time. I think people like you read the tooltip saying 7k damage and fail to realize that that's before Battle Spirit and Mitigation.

    You initial post is ambiguous in that regard:

    "Rune Cage buff was too much. Ranged stuns that can’t be blocked or dodged shouldn’t do damage. Sorcs can line up some of the strongest burst in the game now. Especially with Caluurions."

    You are clearly upset about the fact that Rune Cage is both ranged and deals damage. This implies that you either want to take away the range from that ability OR the damage. So I am not making anything up, but you are.
    Killset wrote: »
    And finally if you think there are no ranged fights in ESO than you are sadly mistaken or inexperienced.

    I chewed through that above, but here is a quick summary:
    - any melee with a gap closer can easily stay in melee range almost 100% of the time.
    - any melee not slotting a gap closer against a ranged class has no right to complain the same way no ranged class to cheap to slot a gap opener has no right to complain that it can't get away from a melee.
    - There are ranged fights ... between ranged classes b/c usually nobody is interested in fighting at melee range. And even these fights tend to be a medium range rather than max range b/c you don't want your target to move out of range by simply making 1 step backwards.
  • Galarthor
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    Gprime31 wrote: »
    The answer IS and always has been..... make shields CRITABLE.... but zos is ignorant to this.... like many things

    Great. This utterly ill-conceived piece of propaganda again.

    Here some enlightenment:
    The reason you cannot crit on shields is because shields themselves don't crit.

    Shields are basically nothing but an up front heal. And heals, as we all know, can crit. Which is necessary and balanced since the damage abilities these heals are meant to counter can crit as well.

    If you want shields to be critable you will have to allow shields to crit themselves for the sake of balance. But I doubt people want to see shields that crit and provide 20k damage absorbtion (up front heal) each.

    Now you will argue that it is not necessary to allow shields to crit because you can stack multiple shields at the same time.
    But you are doing the very same thing with every other defensive ability - you stack them all.

    You can have multiple heals on you at the same time. In addition you are benefiting from resistances.
    You can perma block and still receive bonuses from your armor and heals.
    The list goes on and on.

    Also the arguement that other defensive abilities such as DK wings and dodge roll cannot crit and thus it is not necessary for shields to be able to crit, if they can be critted themselfes, is invalid as these abilties mitigate a relative amount of damage not an absolute one like heals and shields do. Wings, for example, don't care if they are hit by a 2k projectile or a 200k projectile, but heals and shields do. In the former case you'd be fine, in the latter dead.

    Pointing out that shields are only so strong because sorcs can use two or three of them at the same time is not really a valid point to make either. Two out of those three shields are available to all classes, which means sorcs only got one additional shield. In fact there are no passives that give sorcs some benefits over other classes when it comes to using damage shields. And all other classes got their own respective damage mitigation tools as counterparts to the sorc's Conjured Ward - e.g. Breath of Life, Cloak, ...

    The problem with shields is primarily a psychological one. You are missing out on your sense of reward because you are performing an action that usually leads to a movement of your opponents health bar but nothing (or very little) is happening to said health bar. If the shields would be displayed as an increase in HP and you would see the enemies HP bar fluctuate you'd feel very differently about shields.

    if you stay impartial you will notice that very quickly when you use shields against both players with shields and players without shields.

    The only shield that is really broken OP is the wardens Crystallized Shield. The amount of damage it absorbs relative to it effective cost is ridiculously - especially in the case of Shimmering Shields. And the current PTS changes do nothing to alleviate this problem.
  • WuffyCerulei
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    If shields were to have the Streak treatment, that'll screw magicka dps, healers, and even tanks in fricking pve. That's a magicka dps's main damage mitigation. Don't f*ck up pve because you don't know how to counter.
    For the love of Kyne, buff sorc. PC NACP 2100+Star-Sïnger - Khajiit Magicka Sorc - EP Grand Overlord - Flawless Conqueror vMA/vBRP/vDSA no death/vHel Ra HM/vAA HM/vSO HM/vMoL HM/vHoF HM/vAS +2/vCR+3/vSS HMs/vKA HMs/vVH/vRG Oax HM/vDSR
  • Galarthor
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    Tonturri wrote: »
    Maybe reduce shield strength across the board, but allow 'em to benefit from armor res somehow. Say your average sorc shield is 10k. Average sorc armor is 7-10k, but let's go with 10k for simplicity. There's an incoming 10k hit. Reducing shield strength by 20% will make the shield absorb 8k, with 2k overflow. However, if shields benefitted from armor along with reducing the value of said shield, the sorc would take...approximately the same damage (10k armor is somewhere between 14 and 17% reduction). Admittedly this is a very, very specific example and I'm unsure how to make it scale properly in a wider selection of scenarios, but a TLDR of my line of thinking is that shield strength could be reduced a percentage proportionate to how much more mitigation the sorc would get from suddenly benefitting from armor. This would scale in that in order for the sorc to get more armor, they'd have to give up forms of mitigation - most likely magicka, thus reducing the strength of the shield and ensuring that you don't have sorcs with the same amount of sustain and shield value suddenly benfitting from a big chunk of extra tankiness. If a sorc wanted to put on heavy armor, he/she could, but would have fewer casts, or the sorc could get more health at the cost of shield strength but it wouldn't be a total waste of stats. I'm sure there would be an outlier where the scenario I mention above occurs where some min/maxer figures out how to get everything they got now + extra mitigation, but...I currently see no way for that to happen.

    This is a very interesting post.
    As for the quoted section, I think the solution would lie in splitting up the morphs and make them scale with light armor.
    Something like this:

    Morph 1: Shield works the way it currently does, but the shield strength depends on the pieces of light armor you wear (similar to dampened magic, but maybe a higher/lower rate depending on the overall changes). This would prevent that heavy armor users with lots of mitigation also can slot powerful shields that are meant for squishy light armor wearers that only got 1/4 of the armor mitigation (without considering HA buffs to blocking). Other effects such as minor intellect could be added depending on the current balance situation.

    Morph 2: Only mitigates damage that got through block. Make it a relative mitigation tool (% based) or an absolute one (points based). Cost and duration would have to be adjusted to how and what amount of damage the shield actually mitigates.

    This way you can circumvent the issue with the CCs in PvP b/c you don't have blocking cost that have no benefit.

    In the wake of these changes I'd also change at least Dampening Magic. Maybe make it restore stamina when it by a stamina ability. It already has a fittingly green icon. Doesn't have to be the same amount as magicka returned from Harness Magicka.
    Edited by Galarthor on June 13, 2018 11:25PM
  • PhoenixGrey
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    Daus wrote: »
    This is in combat and mechanics section because damage shields are OP in every aspect of this game. It's the reason why magicka has insane survivability in comparison to stamina in PvE, and the fact that magSorcs can add 20k+ effective health in 2 seconds by alternating between hardened ward and harness magicka while in PvP is way too strong.

    I do not have the solution, but I can offer a few ideas:

    1) Make them critable, but have them affected by the users mitigation.

    2) Have them affected by defile.

    3) Increase the cost of a following damage shield by 33% if applied again within 5 seconds.

    I would not suggest doing both suggestion 1 and 2 because that would render damage shields useless. Combining either 1 or 2 with 3 would be fine though.

    Yes, I'm expecting to be zerged by QQing magsorcs for stating the obvious, but this is long overdue and we will see posts like this throughout the entire lifetime of ESO until something is done about it.

    Shield stacking is expensive though compared to some other defensive mechanics in the game

    That fact was conveniently forgotten

  • Strider__Roshin
    Strider__Roshin
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    Daus wrote: »
    This is in combat and mechanics section because damage shields are OP in every aspect of this game. It's the reason why magicka has insane survivability in comparison to stamina in PvE, and the fact that magSorcs can add 20k+ effective health in 2 seconds by alternating between hardened ward and harness magicka while in PvP is way too strong.

    I do not have the solution, but I can offer a few ideas:

    1) Make them critable, but have them affected by the users mitigation.

    2) Have them affected by defile.

    3) Increase the cost of a following damage shield by 33% if applied again within 5 seconds.

    I would not suggest doing both suggestion 1 and 2 because that would render damage shields useless. Combining either 1 or 2 with 3 would be fine though.

    Yes, I'm expecting to be zerged by QQing magsorcs for stating the obvious, but this is long overdue and we will see posts like this throughout the entire lifetime of ESO until something is done about it.

    Shield stacking is expensive though compared to some other defensive mechanics in the game

    That fact was conveniently forgotten

    Not even close. You'll run out of stamina significantly quicker on a stam character spamming dodge rolling or blocking a soul assault than you would on a magicka character spamming shields.

    I didn't conveniently forget anything. You obviously don't play stamina.
  • RinaldoGandolphi
    RinaldoGandolphi
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    Shields haven't been OP since before Imperial City update.

    Furthermore, Shields are designed to counter or reduce burst damage for Light Armor builds(they are not very good at that role anymore, but never the less)

    If anything shields need a slight buff to compensate for damage going up so much due to power creep.

    Shields scales from:
    1.,Max magicka
    2.,Bastion
    3.Hardy (reduce damage shield takes)
    4.thick skinned (reduce damage shield takes)
    5.ele defender (reduce damage shield takes)
    6.Ironclad
    7. Major/Minor protection
    8. Major/Minor Maim
    9. Necropotence
    10. Mundas Stone (mage)

    Damage scales from:
    1.Max Mag/Stam(from sets and food or stat increases)
    2.Weapon/Spell Damage(from sets)
    3.Mighty/elemental Expert
    4.Weapon Expert/Staff Expert
    5.Physical/Spell Pen
    6.Enchantments(increase spell/weapon damage)
    7.Mundas stones(increase max stat. pen, or spell/weapon damage)
    8.Master At Arms
    9.Thaumaturge
    13. % based damage increases such as Major and minor beserk
    14. % based Damage increases not part of the Major/minor System like Nightblade Death Stroke
    15. Proc Sets that give resource free damage (especially strong against shields in no-cp)
    16. Damage sets that give large increases to weapon/spell damage to certain damage types like 400 damage from Sun, Sword Singler, Automaton, Burning Spell Weave, etc
    17. Sets that give large stat increases like Trainee, Shacklebreaker, Imperial Physique, Necropotence, Drauger Hulk, etc
    18. Minor Vulnerability status effects like Concussion
    19. Light and Heavy Attack increased scaling from resource pools.
    20. Sets like Kvatch gladiator that give 1800+ weapon damage to light and heavy attacks at 25% health
    21. Sheilds take execute damage despite being a full strenght because execute damage is based on the health value underneath it.

    just stop please....Damage literally scales or is gotten for free over twice the amount that Sheilds can grow to mitigate damage. Furthermore their are resource draining poisons you can put on one weapon that increases both mag and stamina costs by 30% for nearly 7 seconds making in nearly impossible for the Mag Sorc to Dark Convert or maintain their shields.

    As a Stam Sorc main now this just has to stop. Mag Sorcs are probably right where they should be now...they are incredibly vulnerable to snares, roots and gap closers, they have more defined weaknesses then any other class, all their damage combos are telegrapghed, and beneath their sheilds they are incredibly squishy.

    in 99% of cases, if your having trouble with Mag Sorc's, its because your being outplayed, not because the class is OP.





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    Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)

    "Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak

  • Minalan
    Minalan
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    Daus wrote: »
    Daus wrote: »
    This is in combat and mechanics section because damage shields are OP in every aspect of this game. It's the reason why magicka has insane survivability in comparison to stamina in PvE, and the fact that magSorcs can add 20k+ effective health in 2 seconds by alternating between hardened ward and harness magicka while in PvP is way too strong.

    I do not have the solution, but I can offer a few ideas:

    1) Make them critable, but have them affected by the users mitigation.

    2) Have them affected by defile.

    3) Increase the cost of a following damage shield by 33% if applied again within 5 seconds.

    I would not suggest doing both suggestion 1 and 2 because that would render damage shields useless. Combining either 1 or 2 with 3 would be fine though.

    Yes, I'm expecting to be zerged by QQing magsorcs for stating the obvious, but this is long overdue and we will see posts like this throughout the entire lifetime of ESO until something is done about it.

    Shield stacking is expensive though compared to some other defensive mechanics in the game

    That fact was conveniently forgotten

    Not even close. You'll run out of stamina significantly quicker on a stam character spamming dodge rolling or blocking a soul assault than you would on a magicka character spamming shields.

    I didn't conveniently forget anything. You obviously don't play stamina.

    He has the analogy wrong.

    Shields are like block, vigor, and rally on a heavy armor build, and cost similar.

    Dodge roll is completely different, we both do it and it has an increasing cost fatigue on it.
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