Damage Shields really need to be reworked

Strider__Roshin

This is in combat and mechanics section because damage shields are OP in every aspect of this game. It's the reason why magicka has insane survivability in comparison to stamina in PvE, and the fact that magSorcs can add 20k+ effective health in 2 seconds by alternating between hardened ward and harness magicka while in PvP is way too strong.

I do not have the solution, but I can offer a few ideas:

1) Make them critable, but have them affected by the users mitigation.

2) Have them affected by defile.

3) Increase the cost of a following damage shield by 33% if applied again within 5 seconds.

I would not suggest doing both suggestion 1 and 2 because that would render damage shields useless. Combining either 1 or 2 with 3 would be fine though.

Yes, I'm expecting to be zerged by QQing magsorcs for stating the obvious, but this is long overdue and we will see posts like this throughout the entire lifetime of ESO until something is done about it.

GreenSoup2HoT

Just scale shields off spell damage. That way you either have a ton of magicka with smaller shields or less max magicka but stronger shields.

Emma_Overload

I agree with the headline... the post, not so much.

Damage shields need to be BUFFED to compensate for the massive and unchecked power creep that has caused damage to skyrocket. I would be fine with a Major/Minor system for shields in order to limit stacking, but the Major shield has to be HUGE (like 20K), and Sorcs need to have exclusive access to it. Turn Annulment into a Minor shield (8K maybe?) and give it some other useful effects for the morphs.

Strider__Roshin

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Just scale shields off spell damage. That way you either have a ton of magicka with smaller shields or less max magicka but stronger shields.

Also not a bad suggestion. Like I said I don't know the answer, I'm just throwing in some ideas. Thank you for your input.

Emma_Overload

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Just scale shields off spell damage. That way you either have a ton of magicka with smaller shields or less max magicka but stronger shields.

Don't throw me in the briar patch, Br'er Fox!

Haha, your plan has a flaw! Seriously, imagine all the Mag Sorcs switching to Stam so they can run Pelinal's and dominate PvP for months.

Strider__Roshin

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I agree with the headline... the post, not so much.

Damage shields need to be BUFFED to compensate for the massive and unchecked power creep that has caused damage to skyrocket. I would be fine with a Major/Minor system for shields in order to limit stacking, but the Major shield has to be HUGE (like 20K), and Sorcs need to have exclusive access to it. Turn Annulment into a Minor shield (8K maybe?) and give it some other useful effects for the morphs.

That would be horrible because then stam sorcs could utilize damage shields with equal efficiency as magSorcs.

CyrusArya

Daus wrote: »

I do not have the solution, but I can offer a few ideas:

1) Make them critable, but have them affected by the users mitigation.

2) Have them affected by defile.

3) Increase the cost of a following damage shield by 33% if applied again within 5 seconds.

Nerf damage shields in a sloads meta? Lol.

1.) Shields cannot themselves crit, nor do they offer armor resistance. Therefore they don’t take crtitical damage. Crittable shields with resists would be stronger than what you have now. Don’t underestimate even just ~10k resist...that’s more than double fortifies brass/spriggans/spinners provide in resist/pen.

2.) Shields cannot be buffed by mending or vitality so how does it make sense that they should be reduced by defile, the counter debuff to +healing?

3.) That sounds about as reasonable as making heals stack in cost with each use. That is to say, not at all.

Shields are not what’s OP about sorcs atm. Rune cage however, well that’s another story. Cage is giving too much control in fights currently and that might make sorc defenses seem stronger than they are.

Vapirko

Shields are fine as is. And I say this as a long time stamina player (every class) and a magicka sorc as well, more recently but with a lot of success. They ain’t bothering anyone in PvE (if anything give medium armor some sort of buff) and they’re really not too strong in PvP. You can literally rip through shields with the amount of burst stamina can output. Shields are in a fairly good place, they’ve been nerfed a number of times. Further tuning them down would make them next to useless in PvP. We’ve had this conversation so many times. Good players can make great use of them and they won’t protect a bad player for anything. That seems pretty balanced.

@CyrusArya I’d have to disagree that rune prison is OP now. I used to hate mag sorcs cause I’d die to them all the time pre frags nerf. But honestly I feel they’re one of the few classes in a really balanced place atm, coming from both sides of the fence.

Solariken

IMO they should only absorb direct hits, all DOTs should bypass them. Some additional rebalancing would be needed but it would be healthier overall.

Biro123

3. would make them completely worthless.. They only last a second or 2 anyway..

Sorcs have to have a way to survive the 4 seconds needed to deliver their delayed burst. Without that, they kill nothing (excepting overload hanks and cage/meteor on a low health,low impen med wearer).

So nerf shields, but give something else in return.. a decent spammable? Decent heals and the ability to sustain in heavy armour? Cos aside from that there is only dodge.. hmm, increasing cost, or streak to escape.. oh look! Increasing cost!
Why not give everything else that is spammable that a sorc' can possibly use have an increasing cost while you're at it? (Hm, the only remaining things on my bar to fit the bill would be wrath and dark exchange.. lol) Who needs to proc frags anyway!

Vapirko

Solariken wrote: »

IMO they should only absorb direct hits, all DOTs should bypass them. Some additional rebalancing would be needed but it would be healthier overall.

No. Mag sorcs hve not even 1 hot to counter that. With sloads as an example having all dots bypass shields would be completely OP v mag sorcs.

Juhasow

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Just scale shields off spell damage. That way you either have a ton of magicka with smaller shields or less max magicka but stronger shields.

Umm that would be actually buff to shields and magsorcs would be buffed quite a bit with it also.

Emma_Overload

Daus wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I agree with the headline... the post, not so much.

Damage shields need to be BUFFED to compensate for the massive and unchecked power creep that has caused damage to skyrocket. I would be fine with a Major/Minor system for shields in order to limit stacking, but the Major shield has to be HUGE (like 20K), and Sorcs need to have exclusive access to it. Turn Annulment into a Minor shield (8K maybe?) and give it some other useful effects for the morphs.

That would be horrible because then stam sorcs could utilize damage shields with equal efficiency as magSorcs.

Your prediction is probably accurate (see my reply above to the guy who wanted shields to be based on spell damage).

I disagree that it would be a "horrible" outcome, however. Why would anyone be a Mag Sorc if you could have a big damage shield as a Stam Sorc AND have the higher damage output of a Stamina build? When 99% of the Mag Sorcs switched to Stamina, it would only prove my long held belief that Stamina is inherently overpowered and advantaged in PvP. Then maybe we would see some long overdue NERFS to Stamina!

EDIT: Oh, and by the way, do you feel the same way about Cloak? Why is it OK for Stamblades to use Cloak as well as Magblades can?

Aedaryl

Damage shields aren't OP.

Shieldstacking Hardened + harness + healing ward + Undeath is OP.

You know nothing to this game, you don't get the problem and even less the solutions.

Let's start.

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Shields aren't OP. Shieldstacking 3 differents shield is. Try to go in cyrodiil with hardened ward only or with harness/dampen only. You will quickly change your mind.

The shield mechanic, by itself, is the weakest one : 1 shield is good in 1v1, but the more ennemy you have, the trashier become shields.

Sorc usualy stack 3 shield to be able to survive fine in openwolrd, the problem of that is it's clearly overperforming in 1v1.

---

If you look at shields, harneded, dampen or Healing ward, they are balanced.

One of the reason why sorc can shield stack 3 shields is Harness magicka back.

Harness give you more magicka than it cost, meaning when you are fighting agaisnt magicka classes you have INFINITE sustain.

That's mean you have infinite regen versus: magplar, magsorc, magblade, magdk, magwarden, but also good sustain vs stam dk (volatile armor) and stamblade (shadow Image).

In openworld, if you are touched by thezes classes, you have infinite sustain.

You get it, the main reason why sorc can shieldstack is because they have enough mana to do it, because harness is too strong.

Want to nerf shieldstack ? Start by balanced harness magicka back.

---

I think Annulment and Hardened ward shouldn't stack too. When the problem is shield stacking, nerf the stack, not the individual shields.

ZoS Should make a Major and Minor system for shields (U can only stack a major and a minor ward).

Make all class shields + Annulment being MAJOR shields, and make all non class shields being MINOR shield.

In that way a sorc wouldn't be able to stack harness + hardened.

BUT

ZoS need to make MAJOR shield a viable defense when you are outnumber, just like dodge and block.

Major shield should mitigate more damage the more people hit you.

For exemple, if 4+ people are hitting you, Major shields should mitigate 30% more damage.

it would make shield competitive with block and dodge in outnumbered situations.

Strider__Roshin

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I agree with the headline... the post, not so much.

Damage shields need to be BUFFED to compensate for the massive and unchecked power creep that has caused damage to skyrocket. I would be fine with a Major/Minor system for shields in order to limit stacking, but the Major shield has to be HUGE (like 20K), and Sorcs need to have exclusive access to it. Turn Annulment into a Minor shield (8K maybe?) and give it some other useful effects for the morphs.

That would be horrible because then stam sorcs could utilize damage shields with equal efficiency as magSorcs.

Your prediction is probably accurate (see my reply above to the guy who wanted shields to be based on spell damage).

I disagree that it would be a "horrible" outcome, however. Why would anyone be a Mag Sorc if you could have a big damage shield as a Stam Sorc AND have the higher damage output of a Stamina build? When 99% of the Mag Sorcs switched to Stamina, it would only prove my long held belief that Stamina is inherently overpowered and advantaged in PvP. Then maybe we would see some long overdue NERFS to Stamina!

EDIT: Oh, and by the way, do you feel the same way about Cloak? Why is it OK for Stamblades to use Cloak as well as Magblades can?

Certain things are OP in this game. I wouldn't classify all of stam or all of magicka being one way or the other. That's why I'm addressing damage shields rather than magSorcs. If this was a magSorcs specific thread Rune cage and stacking multiple curses on one character from different sorcs would be mentioned as well.

Vapirko

Daus wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I agree with the headline... the post, not so much.

Damage shields need to be BUFFED to compensate for the massive and unchecked power creep that has caused damage to skyrocket. I would be fine with a Major/Minor system for shields in order to limit stacking, but the Major shield has to be HUGE (like 20K), and Sorcs need to have exclusive access to it. Turn Annulment into a Minor shield (8K maybe?) and give it some other useful effects for the morphs.

That would be horrible because then stam sorcs could utilize damage shields with equal efficiency as magSorcs.

Your prediction is probably accurate (see my reply above to the guy who wanted shields to be based on spell damage).

I disagree that it would be a "horrible" outcome, however. Why would anyone be a Mag Sorc if you could have a big damage shield as a Stam Sorc AND have the higher damage output of a Stamina build? When 99% of the Mag Sorcs switched to Stamina, it would only prove my long held belief that Stamina is inherently overpowered and advantaged in PvP. Then maybe we would see some long overdue NERFS to Stamina!

EDIT: Oh, and by the way, do you feel the same way about Cloak? Why is it OK for Stamblades to use Cloak as well as Magblades can?

Certain things are OP in this game. I wouldn't classify all of stam or all of magicka being one way or the other. That's why I'm addressing damage shields rather than magSorcs. If this was a magSorcs specific thread Rune cage and stacking multiple curses on one character from different sorcs would be mentioned as well.

Both of you are just complaining about what kills you most lol, but one of you is mag and the other is stam. Neither stamina nor magicka in general is inherently suited or advantaged in PvP. They both have their styles and uses. Stamina has more burst damage but magicka has a lot more continues pressure and mag sorcs have a huge amount of burst damage that isn’t dependent on their ult. And why shouldn’t curses stack? Should we stop sub assaults from stacking as well? Or jabs?

Juhasow

Daus wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I agree with the headline... the post, not so much.

Damage shields need to be BUFFED to compensate for the massive and unchecked power creep that has caused damage to skyrocket. I would be fine with a Major/Minor system for shields in order to limit stacking, but the Major shield has to be HUGE (like 20K), and Sorcs need to have exclusive access to it. Turn Annulment into a Minor shield (8K maybe?) and give it some other useful effects for the morphs.

That would be horrible because then stam sorcs could utilize damage shields with equal efficiency as magSorcs.

You mean similarly to how stamblade can utilize Cloak and Fear with equal efficiency as magblade ? Oh sweet hypocrisy.

Also it's hard to imagine stamsorc spamming shields same effectively as magsorc when stamsorc have like 10-15k max magicka and less then 1k mag recovery. It could be somehow strong but lets not compare it to magsorc level of strenght.

fred4

rileynotzb14_ESO wrote: »

Another bad player crying about shields. If you have such a problem with them run an oblivion damage setup. They're good vs stamina too. Otherwise I suggest you try to improve your poor gameplay. Maybe ask good players for advice?

If I could stack 5 Agrees on this, I would. It's that simple.

The suggestions by the OP are hare-brained for reasons outlined by Vapirko. There are some builds that are IMO OP, in the right hands, such as a pet sorc, in IC, wearing Imperial Physique and Necro (and Zaan), but those are specific builds and you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. People also always talk about sorcs and forget - or simply don't realise - that Harness and even Dampen is often barely adequate on other classes.

I have a simple recommendation for the OP: Play in no CP. Procs rule, Sloads rules, shields are much smaller.

Sharee

fred4

I don't know what that picture is. If it represents damage mitigated by a pet sorc, it's logical that Hardened Ward would be at the top, since it also shields the pets, and Healing Ward would be lowest, since it's for emergencies.

Sharee

fred4 wrote: »

I don't know what that picture is. If it represents damage mitigated by a pet sorc, it's logical that Hardened Ward would be at the top, since it also shields the pets, and Healing Ward would be lowest, since it's for emergencies.

Hint: count together the shield percentages.

Juhasow

Sharee wrote: »

Poor outnumbered magsorc

Gilvoth

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I agree with the headline... the post, not so much.

Damage shields need to be BUFFED to compensate for the massive and unchecked power creep that has caused damage to skyrocket. I would be fine with a Major/Minor system for shields in order to limit stacking, but the Major shield has to be HUGE (like 20K), and Sorcs need to have exclusive access to it. Turn Annulment into a Minor shield (8K maybe?) and give it some other useful effects for the morphs.

we nightblades want dark cloak and damage increased.
you can have a buff if we can.
sound fair?

CyrusArya

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

we nightblades want dark cloak and damage increased.
you can have a buff if we can.
sound fair?

How about both of you realize that nightblade and sorc are the two strongest classes in the game and just learn to play?

Silver_Strider

I say just let shield absorb half of oncoming damage instead of the full amount with the remainder being affected by standard mitigation. That way, you can remove or reduce the Battle Spirit Penalty and return the duration to shields all in one fell swoop.

fred4

Sharee wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I don't know what that picture is. If it represents damage mitigated by a pet sorc, it's logical that Hardened Ward would be at the top, since it also shields the pets, and Healing Ward would be lowest, since it's for emergencies.

Hint: count together the shield percentages.

I still have no idea what you're trying to say, or even what that represents. If it's damage you did against a sorc, and 90.7% of it was mitigated by shields, then that is normal! That's how sorcs operate. Other classes outheal your damage or use a mixture of shields and healing. Sorcs, depending on build, may almost exclusively rely on their shields. Their health bar may never move and an inexperienced player might conclude they are unassailable. This is not true. If you have a lot of damage, you may be able to burst them, but let's say you can't. Then you have to attack their stamina. Keep CCing them. Make sure your burst combo includes a CC, so they can't shield that moment, or you catch them unable to break free.

fred4

To the OP: Shields aren't all that. Healing Ward is a reactive heal, much like Rally is a reactive burst heal available to every stamina class. Harness / Dampen requires you to wear light armor. Unless you compromise your damage by wearing Fortified Brass, or Riposte in PvP, you are squishy. You need to shield. Stamina has Vigor. Magicka does not have a HOT of the same strength. Vigor, occasional blocking, and dodge rolling, are the tools of stamina builds. Shields are the tools of magicka builds. If you are at all used to blocking and dodge rolling, you will be in for a big shock playing magicka. The stamina pool and regen of a magicka character allows for so little of it. It's pretty much reserved for break free.

Sharee

fred4 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I don't know what that picture is. If it represents damage mitigated by a pet sorc, it's logical that Hardened Ward would be at the top, since it also shields the pets, and Healing Ward would be lowest, since it's for emergencies.

Hint: count together the shield percentages.

I still have no idea what you're trying to say, or even what that represents. If it's damage you did against a sorc, and 90.7% of it was mitigated by shields, then that is normal! That's how sorcs operate. Other classes outheal your damage or use a mixture of shields and healing. Sorcs, depending on build, may almost exclusively rely on their shields. Their health bar may never move and an inexperienced player might conclude they are unassailable. This is not true. If you have a lot of damage, you may be able to burst them, but let's say you can't. Then you have to attack their stamina. Keep CCing them. Make sure your burst combo includes a CC, so they can't shield that moment, or you catch them unable to break free.

Yea, i'll just drop a meteor on them and then rune cage th... oh wait.

fred4

Sharee wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

I don't know what that picture is. If it represents damage mitigated by a pet sorc, it's logical that Hardened Ward would be at the top, since it also shields the pets, and Healing Ward would be lowest, since it's for emergencies.

Hint: count together the shield percentages.

I still have no idea what you're trying to say, or even what that represents. If it's damage you did against a sorc, and 90.7% of it was mitigated by shields, then that is normal! That's how sorcs operate. Other classes outheal your damage or use a mixture of shields and healing. Sorcs, depending on build, may almost exclusively rely on their shields. Their health bar may never move and an inexperienced player might conclude they are unassailable. This is not true. If you have a lot of damage, you may be able to burst them, but let's say you can't. Then you have to attack their stamina. Keep CCing them. Make sure your burst combo includes a CC, so they can't shield that moment, or you catch them unable to break free.

Yea, i'll just drop a meteor on them and then rune cage th... oh wait.

Hahaha . Rune Cage was probably overbuffed, but the same principle does apply to every other class, of course.

_Ahala_

If you just nerf the mag return from harness, shield stacking would die for sorcs as a defensive strategy without destroying magdens... again... however, if the triple shield stack were to be made unsustainable by this change to harness, magsorc would need to gain access to alternate defensive mechanics such as snare removal and a better streak to make up for it... when you suggest changes to shields please control your raging anti sorc bias and consider what your suggested changes would do to the other magicka specs like magden... this suggestion is akin to saying nerf all stam healing because stamden (meanwhile stamdk mains be frothing at the mouth from the toxic effects of myriad nerfs)

Minalan

What I’d like to see:

1. Nerf shield stacking. Harness and hardened won’t activate if one or the other is up. Healing ward still works. Call it a major/minor system or whatever.

2. Turn bound armor into what it’s supposed to be. You summon a set of Daedric armor with the activated effect. It counts the same as heavy armor for mitigation, and it lasts at least six to eight seconds. The 8% Max Magicka slotted effect remains.

3. Rune cage should be a DOT, so that every DOT crit will activate power surge heals.

So instead of two shields, you get only one, on top of conjured heavy armor, while wearing light. When one shield is broken (in one GCD), you take damage, but it’s mitigated by heavy defense so that you aren’t just one-shot. Surge provides reliable heals without having to hump someone’s leg with boundless storm.

If you want to nerf shield stacking without some kind of backup class burst heal or heavy armor mitigation - you’re being a disingenuous stamtard who just wants to one shot Sorcs. Unfortunately that’s most of the forum posters around here.