Damage Shields really need to be reworked

ak_pvp

Daus wrote: »

But what about PvE? Does everyone think they're fine there even though it's the main reason why competitive trials will go with magicka over stam even when stam is producing higher dps numbers?

No trials go mag melee over stam melee. Stam melee often has easier rotations, and higher DPS, whilst remaining decently survivable with a passive defense that also deals damage.

They only go for certain mag classes because they are ranged, and much content is ranged biased.

idk

Daus wrote: »

But what about PvE? Does everyone think they're fine there even though it's the main reason why competitive trials will go with magicka over stam even when stam is producing higher dps numbers?

You are wrong. Competitive trial groups want stam in them. The main reason magicka get to go is it is generally good to have some ranged dps in the group due to mechanics that prevent stack and burn.

Essentially world record scores in all trials that have been out for at least 3 months are stam heavy. Just a case in point.

Case in point, I believe it was the WF vHoH HM no death speed run that was half stamina.

I provided a link to their Tick Tock achievement run that I am speaking of. Again, you are speaking of competitive and this is a fairly competitive team.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=219&v=4PsVZVNm4ug

BTW it is easiest to see at the start of the last boss since the stam are all standing together and the vid is from the PoV of Alcast who is one of the stam in the group. Right after 28 minute it is clear.

SirMewser

Daus wrote: »

But what about PvE? Does everyone think they're fine there even though it's the main reason why competitive trials will go with magicka over stam even when stam is producing higher dps numbers?

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Dragonknights

• Coagulating Blood and passive problems. Coagulating Blood is a good heal, but it’s secondary effect of major fortitude is often redundant and doesn’t feel useful enough for the cost of the skill.
• Some DK passives feel underwhelming like Elder Dragon and World in Ruin.
• PvP players feel overly reliant on Sword & Board and Vampire archetypes. Would like a bit more mobility. Adding a short snare immunity (2 seconds) on Wings might make non-vampire option attractive.
• Stamina Dragonknights don’t feel like Dragonknights. They were really strong prior in PvE because heavy attacks were strong, now that technique isn’t as good. Also there’s a feeling the stamina DKs don’t get much out of the class as some passives like World in ruin offer little value to them. Molten Armaments offers what they want but is the “wrong” buff.
• Several concerns were brought up for Magicka DK:
  • Power Lash misses a lot
  • Burning Breath cone also misses target. Noxious breath (stam morph) good for PvP, not as much for PvE.
  • Sustain needs help
  • Not wanted for melee DPS
• Key abilities like Flame Lash, Burning Breath and Burning embers feel clunky to use (different ranges, cone not hitting hit boxes, et al)

aeowulf

Shields can't really have the rework they need unless combat as a whole is reworked.

I'd actually like to see builds where people need to think about their survivability, rather than just DPS loading.

Maybe stats need reworking too. Maybe if you put zero points into health, you literally have almost zero health. Force people to make a choice and move away from these meta builds that are perfect for a robot, but less so for a human.

Or maybe, there should be more stats. Maybe CP should be the new stats, and base magicka etc is removed, and replaced with putting cp where you like, with some options being +health, or + magicka etc. Expanding that system to be more encompassing.

Or maybe shields could provide a health based mitigation instead. Maybe 1% per 1k health you have. Yes a 70k tank would get 70% mitigation, but actually no they wouldn't as they would not have any resources to cast the shield. They may need to decide between having high mitigation for a short time, or low mitigation permanently, and play style would be a key factor here. It would certainly make life more interesting.

It would need another 'Tamriel one' sized rework, and then there will be folks that don't like the changes, whatever they are.

Killset

Rune Cage buff was too much. Ranged stuns that can’t be blocked or dodged shouldn’t do damage. Sorcs can line up some of the strongest burst in the game now. Especially with Caluurions.

Shield stacking and streak make sorc a monster in open world. The Sorc class excells at what every other class tries to do. Put all their damage on you in 1-3 seconds. Meteor, Rune, Curse, Frag, and Endless Fury see to this. All from range. Having the ability to stack 3 shields and insanely good maneuverability is icing on the cake.

I see a lot of Sorc advocates agree that they are super strong 1v1 now but shields lose effectiveness with the more people the sorc is fighting. But everyone loses effectiveness as people pile on. The argument that roll dodge mitigates 100% of damage simply isn’t true. There is way to many AOE’s and unblockable/undodgeable damage for that argument to carry much weight anymore. And sorcs are blowing up medium armor wearers in duels FYI.

A lot of people cheered when they nerfed gap closer damage saying that gap closers should only be a tool to close distances and not damage your opponent. Well the same can be said for Rune. It should only stun. And finally, why is it ok to have some of the best damage from range? This always seemed odd to me. Low risk high reward.

Galarthor

Killset wrote: »

Rune Cage buff was too much. Ranged stuns that can’t be blocked or dodged shouldn’t do damage. Sorcs can line up some of the strongest burst in the game now. Especially with Caluurions.

I disagree. The damage is like 2k to 3k in PvP. When you get hit by Flame Reach you take more damage than that and get stunned as well. True, Flame Reach is dodgeable and blockable but it also get spammed a lot more b/c it is the class' spammable. So the only ones that really feel a big difference to before are the perma blockers and perma dodgers. The extreme tanky ones that you need an army for to kill and the ones that basically negated 90% of sorc damage (anything that isn't a haunted curse). Sorcs are finally given a tool to deal with these extremely pesky builds and those players don't like it.

Besides plenty of other classes got similar abilities.
Fear on the NB goes through block and dodge and stuns also applying a slow and the morphs either fear more targets or add minor main reducing the incoming damage by 15%.

Petrify of the DK stuns through block and dodge, deals damage, one of the morphs roots the target after the stun basically forcing it to CC break twice every 5 seconds which means the target spents 2 global cooldowns (GCD) CC-breaking while the DK only spents 1 GCD applying it. Which basically gives the DK an additional GCD over his target per 5 sec cycle. The other morph does not root but provides them with the highly sought after setting-off-balance.

Templars got Eclipse and Spear (which by now travels so fast it's very difficult to dodge or block it)

The only ones not having something similar are the Wardens. But they got access to basically everything else. No class has access to more utility and buffs / debuffs.

Finally, the range is not really an issue b/c the fights in ESO are almost exclusively fought at melee range thanks to CC, roots, slows, and gap closers. If the sorc keeps you at a constant 25-28m range and you are suffering a lot of damage then just walk the other way and use Line of Sight. The range works both ways! if you sprint away in the opposite direction for just a few meters you will be out of harms way. And if you use LoS you force the sorc to come to you if he wants to kill you. Besides, if a ranged class constantly keeps you at max range then you were simply too cheap to slot a gap closer to invest into sprinting. In that case you deserve what you are getting.

Killset wrote: »

Shield stacking and streak make sorc a monster in open world. The Sorc class excells at what every other class tries to do. Put all their damage on you in 1-3 seconds. Meteor, Rune, Curse, Frag, and Endless Fury see to this. All from range. Having the ability to stack 3 shields and insanely good maneuverability is icing on the cake.

Mobility on a sorc is actually pretty bad. Sprinting is far cheaper, faster, and more enduring than streak. It it also far superior for kiting b/c it allows you to hug walls, trees rocks, etc. quickly move up-/downholl, while streak bolts you forward in a straight line for 10m, stuns your before and after you use it and makes you very susceptible to gap closers which have a greater range, low cost, faster animation, work up-/downhill, even around corners (though the latter might be lag related) while also dealing damage to the streaking sorc. And sorry, if you dont slot a gap closer you don't deserve to catch and kill that sorc, the same way that sorc does not deserve to get away from you if he/she does not slot a gap opener aka streak.

The sorc can only hit you with his/her full rotation if you don't pressure him/her. Otherwise the sorc will have to reapply the shields far to often for a clean rotation. So it's more of an issue on your end than on the end of the sorc. The only problemantic build I currently see on sorcs is that overload gank build. That's almost as lame as the monster set stacking gankblades back in the days (still requires more skill than the gankblades back then). That build definitely needs a nerf as soon as possible.

Killset wrote: »

I see a lot of Sorc advocates agree that they are super strong 1v1 now but shields lose effectiveness with the more people the sorc is fighting. But everyone loses effectiveness as people pile on. The argument that roll dodge mitigates 100% of damage simply isn’t true. There is way to many AOE’s and unblockable/undodgeable damage for that argument to carry much weight anymore. And sorcs are blowing up medium armor wearers in duels FYI.

The opposite occurs more frequently: sorcs saying that the shields are too weak even in a 1on1 fight thanks to the constant power creep.

The argument regarding dodge roll is very much true. It's a relative mitigation tool, just like block, while shields and heals are absolute mitigation tools which are capped by their tool tip. True, not every damage can be evaded using dodge, but (1) the majority of damage can and even with the proportion of damage getting through a single dodge roll mitigates far more damage than a shield or heal does in such a scenario. There is a reason you see magicka builds dodge when under heavy pressure but you don't see stamina build putting on a shield. (2) Stamina builds (or other classes in general) have several distinct mitigation tools at their disposal. Therefore, the damage getting through the dodge is at least partially mitigated by these tools. The same is not true for magicka sorcs. All they have are their shields. What ever gets through those shields hits their HP and is there to stay.

Killset wrote: »

A lot of people cheered when they nerfed gap closer damage saying that gap closers should only be a tool to close distances and not damage your opponent. Well the same can be said for Rune. It should only stun. And finally, why is it ok to have some of the best damage from range? This always seemed odd to me. Low risk high reward.

That's also a bad arguement. You want a class that is supposed to rely on kiting to be required to go into melee range to apply a stun. The 2k or 3k damage you take from that build are not detrimental, but make it a viable alternative to Flame Reach and finally gives sorc a tool to deal with perma blockers and perma dodgers (the most cancerous builds in the game - especially when combined with proc sets).

As for your damage from range arguement: see above, there are basically no ranged fights in ESO except between ranged builds at which point your argument is obsolete anyway.

Ragnarock41

Galarthor wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Rune Cage buff was too much. Ranged stuns that can’t be blocked or dodged shouldn’t do damage. Sorcs can line up some of the strongest burst in the game now. Especially with Caluurions.

I disagree. The damage is like 2k to 3k in PvP. When you get hit by Flame Reach you take more damage than that and get stunned as well. True, Flame Reach is dodgeable and blockable but it also get spammed a lot more b/c it is the class' spammable. So the only ones that really feel a big difference to before are the perma blockers and perma dodgers. The extreme tanky ones that you need an army for to kill and the ones that basically negated 90% of sorc damage (anything that isn't a haunted curse). Sorcs are finally given a tool to deal with these extremely pesky builds and those players don't like it.

Besides plenty of other classes got similar abilities.
Fear on the NB goes through block and dodge and stuns also applying a slow and the morphs either fear more targets or add minor main reducing the incoming damage by 15%.

Petrify of the DK stuns through block and dodge, deals damage, one of the morphs roots the target after the stun basically forcing it to CC break twice every 5 seconds which means the target spents 2 global cooldowns (GCD) CC-breaking while the DK only spents 1 GCD applying it. Which basically gives the DK an additional GCD over his target per 5 sec cycle. The other morph does not root but provides them with the highly sought after setting-off-balance.

Templars got Eclipse and Spear (which by now travels so fast it's very difficult to dodge or block it)

The only ones not having something similar are the Wardens. But they got access to basically everything else. No class has access to more utility and buffs / debuffs.

Finally, the range is not really an issue b/c the fights in ESO are almost exclusively fought at melee range thanks to CC, roots, slows, and gap closers. If the sorc keeps you at a constant 25-28m range and you are suffering a lot of damage then just walk the other way and use Line of Sight. The range works both ways! if you sprint away in the opposite direction for just a few meters you will be out of harms way. And if you use LoS you force the sorc to come to you if he wants to kill you. Besides, if a ranged class constantly keeps you at max range then you were simply too cheap to slot a gap closer to invest into sprinting. In that case you deserve what you are getting.

Killset wrote: »

Shield stacking and streak make sorc a monster in open world. The Sorc class excells at what every other class tries to do. Put all their damage on you in 1-3 seconds. Meteor, Rune, Curse, Frag, and Endless Fury see to this. All from range. Having the ability to stack 3 shields and insanely good maneuverability is icing on the cake.

Mobility on a sorc is actually pretty bad. Sprinting is far cheaper, faster, and more enduring than streak. It it also far superior for kiting b/c it allows you to hug walls, trees rocks, etc. quickly move up-/downholl, while streak bolts you forward in a straight line for 10m, stuns your before and after you use it and makes you very susceptible to gap closers which have a greater range, low cost, faster animation, work up-/downhill, even around corners (though the latter might be lag related) while also dealing damage to the streaking sorc. And sorry, if you dont slot a gap closer you don't deserve to catch and kill that sorc, the same way that sorc does not deserve to get away from you if he/she does not slot a gap opener aka streak.

The sorc can only hit you with his/her full rotation if you don't pressure him/her. Otherwise the sorc will have to reapply the shields far to often for a clean rotation. So it's more of an issue on your end than on the end of the sorc. The only problemantic build I currently see on sorcs is that overload gank build. That's almost as lame as the monster set stacking gankblades back in the days (still requires more skill than the gankblades back then). That build definitely needs a nerf as soon as possible.

Killset wrote: »

I see a lot of Sorc advocates agree that they are super strong 1v1 now but shields lose effectiveness with the more people the sorc is fighting. But everyone loses effectiveness as people pile on. The argument that roll dodge mitigates 100% of damage simply isn’t true. There is way to many AOE’s and unblockable/undodgeable damage for that argument to carry much weight anymore. And sorcs are blowing up medium armor wearers in duels FYI.

The opposite occurs more frequently: sorcs saying that the shields are too weak even in a 1on1 fight thanks to the constant power creep.

The argument regarding dodge roll is very much true. It's a relative mitigation tool, just like block, while shields and heals are absolute mitigation tools which are capped by their tool tip. True, not every damage can be evaded using dodge, but (1) the majority of damage can and even with the proportion of damage getting through a single dodge roll mitigates far more damage than a shield or heal does in such a scenario. There is a reason you see magicka builds dodge when under heavy pressure but you don't see stamina build putting on a shield. (2) Stamina builds (or other classes in general) have several distinct mitigation tools at their disposal. Therefore, the damage getting through the dodge is at least partially mitigated by these tools. The same is not true for magicka sorcs. All they have are their shields. What ever gets through those shields hits their HP and is there to stay.

Killset wrote: »

A lot of people cheered when they nerfed gap closer damage saying that gap closers should only be a tool to close distances and not damage your opponent. Well the same can be said for Rune. It should only stun. And finally, why is it ok to have some of the best damage from range? This always seemed odd to me. Low risk high reward.

That's also a bad arguement. You want a class that is supposed to rely on kiting to be required to go into melee range to apply a stun. The 2k or 3k damage you take from that build are not detrimental, but make it a viable alternative to Flame Reach and finally gives sorc a tool to deal with perma blockers and perma dodgers (the most cancerous builds in the game - especially when combined with proc sets).

As for your damage from range arguement: see above, there are basically no ranged fights in ESO except between ranged builds at which point your argument is obsolete anyway.

I think you should have spent this time to improve your kiting instead of ranting here on forums. Tonight your people had a massive overpop in IC yet you ran into our 3 man group and died over and over and over again. I'm not here to bash you or anything, but you can't say that magsorc mobility is weak when you're clearly being an easy target by headbutting into 3 stamDks and expecting to survive.

(there was a magsorc with your name, so I'm assuming its you. Apologies if this is a mistake, buut I'm pretty sure it was you.)

Solariken

ak_pvp wrote: »

Shields need soft counters, stop being in denial. So does cloak whilst we are at it, and then nerf/remove the hard counters, on everything. Block has it, purge has it, reflects have it, heals have it though they went OTT. So shields need soft counters too.

Hardcounters suck both ways, either it completely kills the defense, and its too sacrificial to run solo, so only zergs can run it and use each other to fill their weaknesses.

Shields do need a nerf, and whilst NB has other defenses, sorcs other defense which should be mobility, (just like DKs should be mitigation, or templars, healing, and NBs hiding,) needs a buff on the mag end. That would help on both 1v1 fairness, and 1vX for not being melted.

@Maulkin not trying to poke the bear here but @ak_pvp nailed it. Everyone in here downplaying the effectiveness of shields is conveniently forgetting that Sorc in particular has an absolutely uber control/kite/mobility kit but unfortunately stacking max magicka and using 2+ shields allows near complete circumvention of having to worry about those strategies. Throw in Undeath and/or a Light's Champ with Temporal Guard and those wards turn into Kevlar. Shields getting a soft counter would hopefully encourage a more appropriate playstyle for certain classes rather than just facetanking and laughing at everything that is thrown at them.

Biro123

Galarthor wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Rune Cage buff was too much. Ranged stuns that can’t be blocked or dodged shouldn’t do damage. Sorcs can line up some of the strongest burst in the game now. Especially with Caluurions.

I disagree. The damage is like 2k to 3k in PvP. When you get hit by Flame Reach you take more damage than that and get stunned as well. True, Flame Reach is dodgeable and blockable but it also get spammed a lot more b/c it is the class' spammable. So the only ones that really feel a big difference to before are the perma blockers and perma dodgers. The extreme tanky ones that you need an army for to kill and the ones that basically negated 90% of sorc damage (anything that isn't a haunted curse). Sorcs are finally given a tool to deal with these extremely pesky builds and those players don't like it.

Besides plenty of other classes got similar abilities.
Fear on the NB goes through block and dodge and stuns also applying a slow and the morphs either fear more targets or add minor main reducing the incoming damage by 15%.

Petrify of the DK stuns through block and dodge, deals damage, one of the morphs roots the target after the stun basically forcing it to CC break twice every 5 seconds which means the target spents 2 global cooldowns (GCD) CC-breaking while the DK only spents 1 GCD applying it. Which basically gives the DK an additional GCD over his target per 5 sec cycle. The other morph does not root but provides them with the highly sought after setting-off-balance.

Templars got Eclipse and Spear (which by now travels so fast it's very difficult to dodge or block it)

The only ones not having something similar are the Wardens. But they got access to basically everything else. No class has access to more utility and buffs / debuffs.

Finally, the range is not really an issue b/c the fights in ESO are almost exclusively fought at melee range thanks to CC, roots, slows, and gap closers. If the sorc keeps you at a constant 25-28m range and you are suffering a lot of damage then just walk the other way and use Line of Sight. The range works both ways! if you sprint away in the opposite direction for just a few meters you will be out of harms way. And if you use LoS you force the sorc to come to you if he wants to kill you. Besides, if a ranged class constantly keeps you at max range then you were simply too cheap to slot a gap closer to invest into sprinting. In that case you deserve what you are getting.

Killset wrote: »

Shield stacking and streak make sorc a monster in open world. The Sorc class excells at what every other class tries to do. Put all their damage on you in 1-3 seconds. Meteor, Rune, Curse, Frag, and Endless Fury see to this. All from range. Having the ability to stack 3 shields and insanely good maneuverability is icing on the cake.

Mobility on a sorc is actually pretty bad. Sprinting is far cheaper, faster, and more enduring than streak. It it also far superior for kiting b/c it allows you to hug walls, trees rocks, etc. quickly move up-/downholl, while streak bolts you forward in a straight line for 10m, stuns your before and after you use it and makes you very susceptible to gap closers which have a greater range, low cost, faster animation, work up-/downhill, even around corners (though the latter might be lag related) while also dealing damage to the streaking sorc. And sorry, if you dont slot a gap closer you don't deserve to catch and kill that sorc, the same way that sorc does not deserve to get away from you if he/she does not slot a gap opener aka streak.

The sorc can only hit you with his/her full rotation if you don't pressure him/her. Otherwise the sorc will have to reapply the shields far to often for a clean rotation. So it's more of an issue on your end than on the end of the sorc. The only problemantic build I currently see on sorcs is that overload gank build. That's almost as lame as the monster set stacking gankblades back in the days (still requires more skill than the gankblades back then). That build definitely needs a nerf as soon as possible.

Killset wrote: »

I see a lot of Sorc advocates agree that they are super strong 1v1 now but shields lose effectiveness with the more people the sorc is fighting. But everyone loses effectiveness as people pile on. The argument that roll dodge mitigates 100% of damage simply isn’t true. There is way to many AOE’s and unblockable/undodgeable damage for that argument to carry much weight anymore. And sorcs are blowing up medium armor wearers in duels FYI.

The opposite occurs more frequently: sorcs saying that the shields are too weak even in a 1on1 fight thanks to the constant power creep.

The argument regarding dodge roll is very much true. It's a relative mitigation tool, just like block, while shields and heals are absolute mitigation tools which are capped by their tool tip. True, not every damage can be evaded using dodge, but (1) the majority of damage can and even with the proportion of damage getting through a single dodge roll mitigates far more damage than a shield or heal does in such a scenario. There is a reason you see magicka builds dodge when under heavy pressure but you don't see stamina build putting on a shield. (2) Stamina builds (or other classes in general) have several distinct mitigation tools at their disposal. Therefore, the damage getting through the dodge is at least partially mitigated by these tools. The same is not true for magicka sorcs. All they have are their shields. What ever gets through those shields hits their HP and is there to stay.

Killset wrote: »

A lot of people cheered when they nerfed gap closer damage saying that gap closers should only be a tool to close distances and not damage your opponent. Well the same can be said for Rune. It should only stun. And finally, why is it ok to have some of the best damage from range? This always seemed odd to me. Low risk high reward.

That's also a bad arguement. You want a class that is supposed to rely on kiting to be required to go into melee range to apply a stun. The 2k or 3k damage you take from that build are not detrimental, but make it a viable alternative to Flame Reach and finally gives sorc a tool to deal with perma blockers and perma dodgers (the most cancerous builds in the game - especially when combined with proc sets).

As for your damage from range arguement: see above, there are basically no ranged fights in ESO except between ranged builds at which point your argument is obsolete anyway.

I agree on cage.. But it has been one of those psychological things, I think.

Before summerset, hardly anyone used it (I did - but then I played DW). Now, because of certain absurd comments from the pts of it doing 10k damage - lol, loads have switched to it.
Like sloads, it is now everywhere, and this unfortunately makes it an overly-effective Xv1 tool. Don't even need to time burst with it, just cage someone and they get light-attack-spammed to death by everyone else.

The point I'm getting at - it was fine pre-summerset when it was niche. Adding 2-3k dmg doesn't suddenly make it op, but having so many people using it in XvX or Xv1 in cyro pretty much kills a lot of builds.
Like sloads.. too many people using it in XvX or Xv1 again kills off too many builds.

I worry it will bring back the tank meta as people go looking for ways to survive this.. Already noticing more 50k+ health people out there.

Feanor

Solariken wrote: »

uber mobility kit

Compared to a Templar? Yes. Compared to anything else stam? Not really...

pieratsos

Solariken wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Shields need soft counters, stop being in denial. So does cloak whilst we are at it, and then nerf/remove the hard counters, on everything. Block has it, purge has it, reflects have it, heals have it though they went OTT. So shields need soft counters too.

Hardcounters suck both ways, either it completely kills the defense, and its too sacrificial to run solo, so only zergs can run it and use each other to fill their weaknesses.

Shields do need a nerf, and whilst NB has other defenses, sorcs other defense which should be mobility, (just like DKs should be mitigation, or templars, healing, and NBs hiding,) needs a buff on the mag end. That would help on both 1v1 fairness, and 1vX for not being melted.

@Maulkin not trying to poke the bear here but @ak_pvp nailed it. Everyone in here downplaying the effectiveness of shields is conveniently forgetting that Sorc in particular has an absolutely uber control/kite/mobility kit but unfortunately stacking max magicka and using 2+ shields allows near complete circumvention of having to worry about those strategies. Throw in Undeath and/or a Light's Champ with Temporal Guard and those wards turn into Kevlar. Shields getting a soft counter would hopefully encourage a more appropriate playstyle for certain classes rather than just facetanking and laughing at everything that is thrown at them.

And you kinda lost everyone when you said facetanking and laughing

cpuScientist

I'm currently playing my magPlar alot more. But I was on my Sorc at the beginning of this patch and all of dragon bones.

When I say dodge and blocking scale better, obviously the bigger the X in a 1vX the worst for the player. But when your defense is based on dodge roll snare removal it's just easier to take alot less damage, and what does go through is handled by vigor & rally ticks. I play Stam extensively as I usually grow bored with the shield stack life. Same with block.

The problem is during last year's IC event I was on my stamDK and could tank a group with block and then jump leap em, and really hold my own. I got back on during dragon bones and that was impossible on the scale I could before. Bleeds are a very hard counter. Then undodgeable unblockable CC'S. It made it rough.

My stamblade will get super countered by rune cage. I can survive it if I play it right. But if not it's game over. And if they have even one friend that hits me right as that rune cage hits with the frag it's done.

And now Sorc defense with a lights champion IMO is stronger TBH too many hard counter to the others. Against non bleed builds or rune cage sorcs. I think block and dodge are fine. But bleeds and sorcs are hyper popular.

Whereas shields don't have much counter except for sloads and shield breaker, but those sloads also affect blockers and can't be supressed by cloak as far as i know.

Slaods is bad for the game and should go. But when it does I think even as basically a Sorc main. Shields need to be looked at and given a soft counter.

Also to mention burst heals as your ability to deal with damage like on a magPlar. Defile is out of control. Sure you can purify but it's just right back on you anyway. It's really out of control.

Maulkin

Solariken wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Shields need soft counters, stop being in denial. So does cloak whilst we are at it, and then nerf/remove the hard counters, on everything. Block has it, purge has it, reflects have it, heals have it though they went OTT. So shields need soft counters too.

Hardcounters suck both ways, either it completely kills the defense, and its too sacrificial to run solo, so only zergs can run it and use each other to fill their weaknesses.

Shields do need a nerf, and whilst NB has other defenses, sorcs other defense which should be mobility, (just like DKs should be mitigation, or templars, healing, and NBs hiding,) needs a buff on the mag end. That would help on both 1v1 fairness, and 1vX for not being melted.

@Maulkin not trying to poke the bear here but @ak_pvp nailed it. Everyone in here downplaying the effectiveness of shields is conveniently forgetting that Sorc in particular has an absolutely uber control/kite/mobility kit but unfortunately stacking max magicka and using 2+ shields allows near complete circumvention of having to worry about those strategies. Throw in Undeath and/or a Light's Champ with Temporal Guard and those wards turn into Kevlar. Shields getting a soft counter would hopefully encourage a more appropriate playstyle for certain classes rather than just facetanking and laughing at everything that is thrown at them.

Mobility, sure it's uber. Some MagSorcs QQ about BoL/Streak, but even in its nerfed version it works great. Control, not at all. Sorc completely lacks tools to control fights. These tend to be roots and snares. If you got a MagSorc try fighting MageBlades, MagDKs or any Stam build with Heroic Slash and root poisons and see how much of that fight you control. If any part at all.

I have an entirely different experience to playing MagSorc from yours. And I'm not saying this to be derisive or to blindly defend MagSorc. I'm not interested in that, believe it or not. I'm genuinely sharing my long experience with the class here and how things stand.

In CP PvP, and with the damage increase we've seen in Summerset you can barely face-tank two people at the moment. I don't know of a single Sorc face-tanking outside of a Resto ult at the moment. That's a 6 second face-tank followed by 30-40 seconds of the strategic gameplay that you think Sorcs currently completely circumvent. And anyone can face-tank during a Resto Ult in some way or another. I don't know of a single capable MagSorc who doesn't play the class with the acute awareness that he has to keep and maintain a distance and an exit strategy into LOS, because when people are on top of him only a resto ult will save him. I would actually go so far as to say that the importance of using mobility and situational awareness over shield-spam has not been higher than now in the post-Morrowind era. It's now imperative.

Now, If you step into no-CP campaigns or BGs, shields are entirely unfit for purpose atm. At least what is common in no-CP is that any defensive mechanism is unfit for purpose because the damage is so obscene and the presence of defiles and procs so ubiquitous that anyone gets burst and blown up in 2-3" when focused. MagSorcs absolutely shine in the BGs atm, it's probably the strongest spec. I'm not a lunatic, I know where things stand trust me. But that's not because of shields, not in the slightest. It's primarily because of very high burst, Rune Cage (which did not need buffing) and Fury kill-stealing. Shields are not the thing that stands out when you look at what makes Sorcs so strong in no-CP. It's damage and mobility. Spamming shields will see you dead in 3-5 seconds flat. And the thing is, you have to include no-CP into the consideration. Both BGs and No-CP campaigns are an important part of the game

For the record I'm all for re-working shields and I've proposed in the past radical solutions like removing Hardened Ward altogether and getting a passive that reduces the cost of damage shields (namely Harness/Dampen and Healing Ward) and potentially some more mitigation and passive healing. Although that would move MagSorc closer to MagBlade. I've been a huge proponent of nerfing Harness Magicka at least. I don't mind the bear being poked, sort of speak. Shields stacks are kinda bland and boring when fighting 1v1 against another magicka spec and I'd like some change from the shield-stack meta like most old school MagSorcs I know.

I certainly though don't share the opinion that MagSorc is face tanking on shields right now. It doesn't match at all with the reality of what I see myself and other MagSorcs doing.

Killset

Feanor wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

uber mobility kit

Compared to a Templar? Yes. Compared to anything else stam? Not really...

Wrong

Saderis

Can't say much about pvp, but indeed in pve damage shields seems to me insanely overpowered (and this comes from magsorc main).
Spammable, low cost 25k hp is way better then any avaible hot. Why even bother taking a tank or healer on a dungeon when everything can be done by 2-3 magdps. While it's true that magdps will always be behind stamdps (at least it should be) range(hiting a bit lower but from a far is by itself enough compensation for lower dps), kiting possibility, survivability (by a lot) is on the side of mag.

No hating thou, I love my sorc as it now, but it just not feels fair.

cpuScientist

Maulkin wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Shields need soft counters, stop being in denial. So does cloak whilst we are at it, and then nerf/remove the hard counters, on everything. Block has it, purge has it, reflects have it, heals have it though they went OTT. So shields need soft counters too.

Hardcounters suck both ways, either it completely kills the defense, and its too sacrificial to run solo, so only zergs can run it and use each other to fill their weaknesses.

Shields do need a nerf, and whilst NB has other defenses, sorcs other defense which should be mobility, (just like DKs should be mitigation, or templars, healing, and NBs hiding,) needs a buff on the mag end. That would help on both 1v1 fairness, and 1vX for not being melted.

@Maulkin not trying to poke the bear here but @ak_pvp nailed it. Everyone in here downplaying the effectiveness of shields is conveniently forgetting that Sorc in particular has an absolutely uber control/kite/mobility kit but unfortunately stacking max magicka and using 2+ shields allows near complete circumvention of having to worry about those strategies. Throw in Undeath and/or a Light's Champ with Temporal Guard and those wards turn into Kevlar. Shields getting a soft counter would hopefully encourage a more appropriate playstyle for certain classes rather than just facetanking and laughing at everything that is thrown at them.

Mobility, sure it's uber. Some MagSorcs QQ about BoL/Streak, but even in its nerfed version it works great. Control, not at all. Sorc completely lacks tools to control fights. These tend to be roots and snares. If you got a MagSorc try fighting MageBlades, MagDKs or any Stam build with Heroic Slash and root poisons and see how much of that fight you control. If any part at all.

I have an entirely different experience to playing MagSorc from yours. And I'm not saying this to be derisive or to blindly defend MagSorc. I'm not interested in that, believe it or not. I'm genuinely sharing my long experience with the class here and how things stand.

In CP PvP, and with the damage increase we've seen in Summerset you can barely face-tank two people at the moment. I don't know of a single Sorc face-tanking outside of a Resto ult at the moment. That's a 6 second face-tank followed by 30-40 seconds of the strategic gameplay that you think Sorcs currently completely circumvent. And anyone can face-tank during a Resto Ult in some way or another. I don't know of a single capable MagSorc who doesn't play the class with the acute awareness that he has to keep and maintain a distance and an exit strategy into LOS, because when people are on top of him only a resto ult will save him. I would actually go so far as to say that the importance of using mobility and situational awareness over shield-spam has not been higher than now in the post-Morrowind era. It's now imperative.

Now, If you step into no-CP campaigns or BGs, shields are entirely unfit for purpose atm. At least what is common in no-CP is that any defensive mechanism is unfit for purpose because the damage is so obscene and the presence of defiles and procs so ubiquitous that anyone gets burst and blown up in 2-3" when focused. MagSorcs absolutely shine in the BGs atm, it's probably the strongest spec. I'm not a lunatic, I know where things stand trust me. But that's not because of shields, not in the slightest. It's primarily because of very high burst, Rune Cage (which did not need buffing) and Fury kill-stealing. Shields are not the thing that stands out when you look at what makes Sorcs so strong in no-CP. It's damage and mobility. Spamming shields will see you dead in 3-5 seconds flat. And the thing is, you have to include no-CP into the consideration. Both BGs and No-CP campaigns are an important part of the game

For the record I'm all for re-working shields and I've proposed in the past radical solutions like removing Hardened Ward altogether and getting a passive that reduces the cost of damage shields (namely Harness/Dampen and Healing Ward) and potentially some more mitigation and passive healing. Although that would move MagSorc closer to MagBlade. I've been a huge proponent of nerfing Harness Magicka at least. I don't mind the bear being poked, sort of speak. Shields stacks are kinda bland and boring when fighting 1v1 against another magicka spec and I'd like some change from the shield-stack meta like most old school MagSorcs I know.

I certainly though don't share the opinion that MagSorc is face tanking on shields right now. It doesn't match at all with the reality of what I see myself and other MagSorcs doing.

I agree fully. This has been my exact experience. I've used one shield and a rapid Regen. And can get away with it, but it's not as effective. Shield stacking is boring and tiresome that it is still the main defense.

Sorcs are really good in that they have especially now with rune cage an amazing burst combo, paired with good escapes with streak and mines.

They are the best solo class outside of maybe stamBlade in my opinion. And definitely top 3 overall PvP class with stamDen and stamBlade. They are dominating in BG's because of the burst combo's mages wrath and streak mobility. However the shields in no cp are truly paper.

In CP land many employ a very defensive escape centric playstyle. Basically streak and dark deal to the ends of the map. Even in it's current state streak is great. Ball of lightning will absorb range attacks. And the only real way to get a Sorc is to spam gap close. And if you are not quick that Sorc will stun you and be out of range of a gap close. And now with undo on top they can. Completely juke someone out.

Shields I think need a change at this point of the game. But some parts of the sorc kit would need a change aswell if this were to happen. Shields need a counter a soft counter that isn't just damage foes under shields. Like Oblivion damage. I think Oblivion damage either needs a rework to be taxxing on the user or just simply removed from game as it is simply a very bad lazy mechanic.

Feanor

Killset wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

uber mobility kit

Compared to a Templar? Yes. Compared to anything else stam? Not really...

Wrong

You really want to tell me that a Sorc has better mobility than a stam char running Forward Momentum and a speed pot?

Solariken

Feanor wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

uber mobility kit

Compared to a Templar? Yes. Compared to anything else stam? Not really...

Wrong

You really want to tell me that a Sorc has better mobility than a stam char running Forward Momentum and a speed pot?

Speed pots are broken too but that's another discussion entirely.

Killset

Feanor wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

uber mobility kit

Compared to a Templar? Yes. Compared to anything else stam? Not really...

Wrong

You really want to tell me that a Sorc has better mobility than a stam char running Forward Momentum and a speed pot?

Yes.. Sorc does. And that is before we get into the argument of you assuming every stam character can run forward momentum. Ironically one of the classes that does pull it off is Sorc!

Galarthor

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I think you should have spent this time to improve your kiting instead of ranting here on forums. Tonight your people had a massive overpop in IC yet you ran into our 3 man group and died over and over and over again. I'm not here to bash you or anything, but you can't say that magsorc mobility is weak when you're clearly being an easy target by headbutting into 3 stamDks and expecting to survive.

(there was a magsorc with your name, so I'm assuming its you. Apologies if this is a mistake, buut I'm pretty sure it was you.)

That might have very well been me. I got no idea who you are so, so I am assuming you are referring to the unusually loarge fights in IC between 22:00 and 23:00 (CET+1) in IC yesterday nicht. I also assume either you or one of your teammates was a stamDK with an @name consisting of 2 letters and a 0.

So lets take a look at what you are saying:

1) Massive overpopulation?
AD the probably had more players but it was more of the scale 12 to 15 ADs versus 10 to 12 DCs. Just b/c they werent in your group doesnt mean they weren't there. DC was also clearly more organized than AD was. So I'd say population-wise AD had an edge, but skill- and team-wise DC had.

2) You imply that I am not qualified to make such statements regarding shields and mobility of sorcs, because you in a 3 man group killed me who was solo by focusing me down. Great argument. Really. Since all 3 stamDKs in that stamDK group were good players, I'd say it would be really weird if you couldnt kill me when you focus me down. In fact that would be a strong indicator that sorcs needed a nerf. See, that's asound argument: given equal or superior (which you obviously think) skill levels, 3 stamDKs are unable to kill a single magSorc. Therefore, there is a very high chance that either magSorcs are OP or stamDK in need of a buff. "I killed you yesterday twice together with 2 of my friends, you suck!" is not a good arguement. It's actually very childish and short-sighted. Personal "insults" are a last resort for those without any substantial arguments!

3) Did I play well yesterday? No, I'd say i played decently. I made it into IC at around 22:00 and there were 2 big groups (actully both sides consisting of several smaller groups and at least on AD side also solo players) clashing. Tired as I was after a day long MATLAB coding and troubleshooting I just entered the fray and started throwing punch (or Force Pulses and Curses) neglecting my shields and positioning for the most part (I simply didn't care. No TVs to lose, tired, and just wanted to have some fun before going to bed).

4) So from that one occasion where I am yolo'ing and you focus me down with your 2 friends you reach the conclusion that I am inept to analyze and talk about sorc and game mechanics in general. That's just sad.

5) Stooping to your level of argumentation I could now argue: I got killed by a stamDK on one occasion. I am the greatest b/c I think so! Therefore, sorcs need a buff.

6) As stated above, I don't expect to survive a 1v3 if the enemy has equal or superior skill. That would be sign imbalance or cheating.

I hope we will have plenty of interesting fights in IC in the future. Maybe also a few 1on1s or with equal groups. But until then, please if you want to challenge my arguments, bring real arguments not some playground 2 liners.

Galarthor

Biro123 wrote: »

[
I agree on cage.. But it has been one of those psychological things, I think.

Before summerset, hardly anyone used it (I did - but then I played DW). Now, because of certain absurd comments from the pts of it doing 10k damage - lol, loads have switched to it.
Like sloads, it is now everywhere, and this unfortunately makes it an overly-effective Xv1 tool. Don't even need to time burst with it, just cage someone and they get light-attack-spammed to death by everyone else.

The point I'm getting at - it was fine pre-summerset when it was niche. Adding 2-3k dmg doesn't suddenly make it op, but having so many people using it in XvX or Xv1 in cyro pretty much kills a lot of builds.
Like sloads.. too many people using it in XvX or Xv1 again kills off too many builds.

I worry it will bring back the tank meta as people go looking for ways to survive this.. Already noticing more 50k+ health people out there.

It's a good observation you make there. But I think we should let it play out for a while and see how people adept. Because unlike Sloads it's nothing really new (as pointed out above, many classes have similar tools).

Basing balance on Xv1 is not really wise though. As stated in my previous post, balance requires that given equal skill (and gear ofc) the team with the greater numbers should win (at least on average b/c there is sill the RNG element in this game). Besides a templar throwing his spear from 28m behind you also stuns and knocks you down. The duration of the stun is the same if not longer compared to rune cage. That means that you take the same amount of damage as if you were stunned by rune cage. So if rune cage is considered OP in a Xv1 situation every other ability having the same end result / effect must be considered OP as well, b/c a Xv1 situation is not about interclass balance since you got 1 class fighting against multiple classes (and perhaps even itself) at the same time. But as I said, I don't think we should aim to balance around Xv1, but rather around 1v1 or XvX. And in those situations Rune Cage & Co are by far not as detrimental.

As for your worries about tank meta returning. It has never really left. In fact, the rune cage now gives sorcs (what other classes already had before) a tool to fight many of these tanky builds (i.e. perma blockers and perma dodgers).

Just look at my previous post. The guy complaining that I am a bad player and therefore are not entitled to talk on this subject, basically did the very same thing to me. 1 stam DK stunned me and the other 2 unloaded the damage in the meanwhile. There was nothing I could really do about it except trying to escape, but their gap closers were superior to my streak anyways. But I don't mind. That's the game and balancing my class around Xv1 would have might saved me, if I actually tried fghting seriously, but it would have been OP. So, while I don't like being killed in CC because the enemy has superios numbers, it is unfortunately a necessary evil and I am ok with it.

Maryal

This isn't a nerf NB thread .... that makes me so happy!

Biro123

Maryal wrote: »

This isn't a nerf NB thread .... that makes me so happy!

Silly-billy.. Magblades have shields too!

Feanor

Killset wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

uber mobility kit

Compared to a Templar? Yes. Compared to anything else stam? Not really...

Wrong

You really want to tell me that a Sorc has better mobility than a stam char running Forward Momentum and a speed pot?

Yes.. Sorc does. And that is before we get into the argument of you assuming every stam character can run forward momentum. Ironically one of the classes that does pull it off is Sorc!

The only stam character that can’t run Forward Momentum comfortably is stamDK because their class heal sucks and they need Rally. For everyone else it’s just a build choice.

And no, magSorcs don’t have better mobility because of the prevalence of snares everywhere. Bolt Escape even comes with its own root. For the caster.

Bergzorn

Magsorc can be very mobile. I'm using sprint with 7x well-fitted, 3x swift jewellery, rapid maneuver for major expedition, snare removal and major gallop, all combined with the occasional streak.

What, don't look at me funny.

Ragnarock41

Galarthor wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I think you should have spent this time to improve your kiting instead of ranting here on forums. Tonight your people had a massive overpop in IC yet you ran into our 3 man group and died over and over and over again. I'm not here to bash you or anything, but you can't say that magsorc mobility is weak when you're clearly being an easy target by headbutting into 3 stamDks and expecting to survive.

(there was a magsorc with your name, so I'm assuming its you. Apologies if this is a mistake, buut I'm pretty sure it was you.)

That might have very well been me. I got no idea who you are so, so I am assuming you are referring to the unusually loarge fights in IC between 22:00 and 23:00 (CET+1) in IC yesterday nicht. I also assume either you or one of your teammates was a stamDK with an @name consisting of 2 letters and a 0.

So lets take a look at what you are saying:

1) Massive overpopulation?
AD the probably had more players but it was more of the scale 12 to 15 ADs versus 10 to 12 DCs. Just b/c they werent in your group doesnt mean they weren't there. DC was also clearly more organized than AD was. So I'd say population-wise AD had an edge, but skill- and team-wise DC had.

2) You imply that I am not qualified to make such statements regarding shields and mobility of sorcs, because you in a 3 man group killed me who was solo by focusing me down. Great argument. Really. Since all 3 stamDKs in that stamDK group were good players, I'd say it would be really weird if you couldnt kill me when you focus me down. In fact that would be a strong indicator that sorcs needed a nerf. See, that's asound argument: given equal or superior (which you obviously think) skill levels, 3 stamDKs are unable to kill a single magSorc. Therefore, there is a very high chance that either magSorcs are OP or stamDK in need of a buff. "I killed you yesterday twice together with 2 of my friends, you suck!" is not a good arguement. It's actually very childish and short-sighted. Personal "insults" are a last resort for those without any substantial arguments!

3) Did I play well yesterday? No, I'd say i played decently. I made it into IC at around 22:00 and there were 2 big groups (actully both sides consisting of several smaller groups and at least on AD side also solo players) clashing. Tired as I was after a day long MATLAB coding and troubleshooting I just entered the fray and started throwing punch (or Force Pulses and Curses) neglecting my shields and positioning for the most part (I simply didn't care. No TVs to lose, tired, and just wanted to have some fun before going to bed).

4) So from that one occasion where I am yolo'ing and you focus me down with your 2 friends you reach the conclusion that I am inept to analyze and talk about sorc and game mechanics in general. That's just sad.

5) Stooping to your level of argumentation I could now argue: I got killed by a stamDK on one occasion. I am the greatest b/c I think so! Therefore, sorcs need a buff.

6) As stated above, I don't expect to survive a 1v3 if the enemy has equal or superior skill. That would be sign imbalance or cheating.

I hope we will have plenty of interesting fights in IC in the future. Maybe also a few 1on1s or with equal groups. But until then, please if you want to challenge my arguments, bring real arguments not some playground 2 liners.

what I'm trying to say is very simple. You have a room for improvement from what I experienced.. Of course everyone can have bad days, I understand that, and I also don't expect you to come on and 1v3 us(which would be an achievement worthy of respect in my eyes), but you died some easily preventable deaths, and I judged you based on your performance that day(and I honestly thought you are a part of that ball group). Now maybe you really are better than that and you were just having a very tired day.

You see, I thought you were really that bad and made my assumptions on that alone. I am looking forward to fight you again, and hope we will have an equal fight this time. But untill then, don't judge me for not taking you seriously.

Killset

Of course any class can slot forward momentum and get vaporized because of poor healing. But only classes like stam warden and stam sorc (without sacrificing a lot of damage in your build), which have class based burst heals, can do it comfortably like you say. I hate forward momentum on NB and Stamplar. And just streak through the snares!

Ragnarock41

Killset wrote: »

Of course any class can slot forward momentum and get vaporized because of poor healing. But only classes like stam warden and stam sorc (without sacrificing a lot of damage in your build), which have class based burst heals, can do it comfortably like you say. I hate forward momentum on NB and Stamplar. And just streak through the snares!

To be honest, on my stamDK I feel fine with running momentum, as long as I am not fighting one of those defile-bleed cheese builds.

But in general, having only one good solution against snares is worrying. Overall effectiveness of snares should be reduced greatly to make this game balanced again. Giving everyone snare immunity, beats the point of having snares.

Anti_Virus

make shields non-refreshable, that would be a good start. The problem lies when sorcs constantly refresh a ward on them making them really hard to kill.

Strider__Roshin

Killset wrote: »

Of course any class can slot forward momentum and get vaporized because of poor healing. But only classes like stam warden and stam sorc (without sacrificing a lot of damage in your build), which have class based burst heals, can do it comfortably like you say. I hate forward momentum on NB and Stamplar. And just streak through the snares!

You most certainly can run FM on a stamblade. Just gotta give up your shadowy disguise for Dark Cloak. Here's a video that a lot of people are giving me grief for in another thread lol.
https://youtu.be/VUt5_vrY-sA