Maintenance for the week of December 23:
· [COMPLETE] NA megaservers for maintenance – December 23, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC)
· [COMPLETE] EU megaservers for maintenance – December 23, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 14:00 UTC (9:00AM EST)

Damage Shields really need to be reworked

  • Anti_Virus
    Anti_Virus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Minalan wrote: »
    Anti_Virus wrote: »
    Minalan wrote: »
    Killset wrote: »
    Minalan wrote: »
    Killset wrote: »
    Minalan wrote: »
    Nightblades will never be happy until all of us are just one-shot free-AP piñatas.

    Damage this patch went way up with the new proc sets and sloads. A good NB can already stun and kill you instantly with one shield up. So we’re forced to stack, and SURPIRSE! They want to get rid of stacking now.

    No. There is no ‘constructive’ way to have this discussion in the face of such a dishonest and disingenuous motivation.

    Instead (for irony/satire sake - if you’re lacking half of a wit, google the word ‘satire’) Let’s discuss how to ‘balance’ cloak:

    * You shouldn’t be able to vanish within 8 meters of a player, this point blank reveal range is ridiculous.
    * How about we add a cloak debuff to the game? When defiled you can be seen perfectly 10-15 meters out?
    * How about we add streak stacking costs to cloak?

    But hey, nightblades have so much Defense and mitigation without cloak, they’ll be fine right? Fair is fair, and this is exactly what they want to do to sorcerers.
    You have got to stop with the NB hate. This has nothing to do with NB or is it coming from NB exclusively. The only disingenuous thing I see here is pretending Sorcs are fine as is. Half of your own community admits something is off here. I play MagDK, MagPlar, Stamplar, and Stamblade and I assure you none of those classes can check all the boxes MagSorc can right now.

    I suggest you look up the word ‘satire’. I was poking fun at most of the changes suggested so far. Maybe I used words too hard for you to understand.

    The design problems are a lot deeper than just ‘omg nerf shields’. Other Sorcs see an ‘issue’ with a number of mechanics that need to change first that aren’t likely to change.

    Nobody here that actually plays a Sorc agrees with the suggestions made by the OP or most of the others. We may agree there’s an ‘issue’ but we all think the same thing about cloak too. But even the slightest nerf to cloak would likely render nightblade unplayable.

    I’m drawing a parallel here, an analogy. If that’s hard to understand, please look it up.
    Stop with the played out, unimaginative, “too hard for you to understand routine” it makes you sound even pettier. I learned very early in life that you can’t preface something with “satire” or “no disrespect” then just go ahead and say or write whatever you want and not expect people to comment or react. You clearly had an agenda when you typed those things and I commented.

    You’re understandably upset. You, just like many other “I play every class including Sorc and I think it needs a nerf” players in the past - just got exposed as nightblade main. Sure you play ‘every class’ but at least we know which one you’re worried about the most when you get triggered by a joke.

    That’s okay man. I’m biased pro Sorc and honest about it. I have a nightblade too but I don’t even pretend to enjoy playing it as much.

    and that's the problem just like anti sorc NBs, your opinion also cannot be taken seriously.

    Believe it or not, I don’t think you nightblade guys need any nerfs. Fixing the crit heal bug is all I believe needed to happen, and it did. You’re fine.

    My post above was meant to be comedy, and it mirrored everything nightblade posters here wanted to happen to shields - class destroying changes basically. It didn’t hit home until I copy/pasted the shield nerfs, and replaced in the word ‘cloak’.

    I see. Many sorcs here are forgetting the PVE application of shields as well, trials almost always are dominated by magic builds because they can ignore some mechanics by ward stacking( standing in red, boss heavy attacks etc.) and its the least punishing defensive mechanic in the game even when outnumbered in pvp applications.

    dodge roll evades all single target dodgeable attacks in a certain window but cannot be maintained due to stacking cost.

    block mitigates 50% damage(55% on DK) and has a scaling cost more people hitting you while blocking the more stam you drain, in addition, you don't regen stam while blocking and with unblockable CCs that also hit very hard *cough* rune cage *cough* it cannot be sustained very long.

    wards mitigate 100% true(unmitigated except for battle spirit) damage but resist crits, it has no scaling cost increase can be refreshed and stacked with other wards.

    all three mechanics, when faced with multiple opponents, will result in death but at least the magicka user can utilize block and dodge without investing into it (although with limited use). Stam builds cannot use shields like mag builds, and so we have sloads and shield breaker in the game and it will only get worse. Sometimes I think end game pve needs oblivion damage mechanics to make it more challenging for magic builds.
    Power Wealth And Influence.
  • Vahrokh
    Vahrokh
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Anti_Virus wrote: »
    Minalan wrote: »
    Anti_Virus wrote: »
    Minalan wrote: »
    Killset wrote: »
    Minalan wrote: »
    Killset wrote: »
    Minalan wrote: »
    Nightblades will never be happy until all of us are just one-shot free-AP piñatas.

    Damage this patch went way up with the new proc sets and sloads. A good NB can already stun and kill you instantly with one shield up. So we’re forced to stack, and SURPIRSE! They want to get rid of stacking now.

    No. There is no ‘constructive’ way to have this discussion in the face of such a dishonest and disingenuous motivation.

    Instead (for irony/satire sake - if you’re lacking half of a wit, google the word ‘satire’) Let’s discuss how to ‘balance’ cloak:

    * You shouldn’t be able to vanish within 8 meters of a player, this point blank reveal range is ridiculous.
    * How about we add a cloak debuff to the game? When defiled you can be seen perfectly 10-15 meters out?
    * How about we add streak stacking costs to cloak?

    But hey, nightblades have so much Defense and mitigation without cloak, they’ll be fine right? Fair is fair, and this is exactly what they want to do to sorcerers.
    You have got to stop with the NB hate. This has nothing to do with NB or is it coming from NB exclusively. The only disingenuous thing I see here is pretending Sorcs are fine as is. Half of your own community admits something is off here. I play MagDK, MagPlar, Stamplar, and Stamblade and I assure you none of those classes can check all the boxes MagSorc can right now.

    I suggest you look up the word ‘satire’. I was poking fun at most of the changes suggested so far. Maybe I used words too hard for you to understand.

    The design problems are a lot deeper than just ‘omg nerf shields’. Other Sorcs see an ‘issue’ with a number of mechanics that need to change first that aren’t likely to change.

    Nobody here that actually plays a Sorc agrees with the suggestions made by the OP or most of the others. We may agree there’s an ‘issue’ but we all think the same thing about cloak too. But even the slightest nerf to cloak would likely render nightblade unplayable.

    I’m drawing a parallel here, an analogy. If that’s hard to understand, please look it up.
    Stop with the played out, unimaginative, “too hard for you to understand routine” it makes you sound even pettier. I learned very early in life that you can’t preface something with “satire” or “no disrespect” then just go ahead and say or write whatever you want and not expect people to comment or react. You clearly had an agenda when you typed those things and I commented.

    You’re understandably upset. You, just like many other “I play every class including Sorc and I think it needs a nerf” players in the past - just got exposed as nightblade main. Sure you play ‘every class’ but at least we know which one you’re worried about the most when you get triggered by a joke.

    That’s okay man. I’m biased pro Sorc and honest about it. I have a nightblade too but I don’t even pretend to enjoy playing it as much.

    and that's the problem just like anti sorc NBs, your opinion also cannot be taken seriously.

    Believe it or not, I don’t think you nightblade guys need any nerfs. Fixing the crit heal bug is all I believe needed to happen, and it did. You’re fine.

    My post above was meant to be comedy, and it mirrored everything nightblade posters here wanted to happen to shields - class destroying changes basically. It didn’t hit home until I copy/pasted the shield nerfs, and replaced in the word ‘cloak’.

    I see. Many sorcs here are forgetting the PVE application of shields as well, trials almost always are dominated by magic builds because they can ignore some mechanics by ward stacking( standing in red, boss heavy attacks etc.) and its the least punishing defensive mechanic in the game even when outnumbered in pvp applications.

    dodge roll evades all single target dodgeable attacks in a certain window but cannot be maintained due to stacking cost.

    block mitigates 50% damage(55% on DK) and has a scaling cost more people hitting you while blocking the more stam you drain, in addition, you don't regen stam while blocking and with unblockable CCs that also hit very hard *cough* rune cage *cough* it cannot be sustained very long.

    wards mitigate 100% true(unmitigated except for battle spirit) damage but resist crits, it has no scaling cost increase can be refreshed and stacked with other wards.

    all three mechanics, when faced with multiple opponents, will result in death but at least the magicka user can utilize block and dodge without investing into it (although with limited use). Stam builds cannot use shields like mag builds, and so we have sloads and shield breaker in the game and it will only get worse. Sometimes I think end game pve needs oblivion damage mechanics to make it more challenging for magic builds.

    Trials are dominated by MAG BLADE magic build. And certainly not because of their shields, but because of their utterly incredible DPS and some rotations having self healing embedded into them.
  • Vahrokh
    Vahrokh
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Gprime31 wrote: »
    bardx86 wrote: »
    Gprime31 wrote: »
    The answer IS and always has been..... make shields CRITABLE.... but zos is ignorant to this.... like many things

    So you make them critable without any resistance or armor mitigation? Who's ignorant here? That would be a terrible idea. Sorc's would get massacred.

    So it would be an aid... not a crutch.. it’s won’t bother good players.

    If it didn't bother good players, you'd create other pointless whining threads like this again until even good players are rendered useless and unable to play sorc in any competitive way.

    It's the way of the whiner, I see this since my first online game, in 1994. You and those like you will never stop until the hated class does not get removed from the game altogether.
  • idk
    idk
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Minalan wrote: »
    Daus wrote: »
    Daus wrote: »
    This is in combat and mechanics section because damage shields are OP in every aspect of this game. It's the reason why magicka has insane survivability in comparison to stamina in PvE, and the fact that magSorcs can add 20k+ effective health in 2 seconds by alternating between hardened ward and harness magicka while in PvP is way too strong.

    I do not have the solution, but I can offer a few ideas:

    1) Make them critable, but have them affected by the users mitigation.

    2) Have them affected by defile.

    3) Increase the cost of a following damage shield by 33% if applied again within 5 seconds.

    I would not suggest doing both suggestion 1 and 2 because that would render damage shields useless. Combining either 1 or 2 with 3 would be fine though.

    Yes, I'm expecting to be zerged by QQing magsorcs for stating the obvious, but this is long overdue and we will see posts like this throughout the entire lifetime of ESO until something is done about it.

    Shield stacking is expensive though compared to some other defensive mechanics in the game

    That fact was conveniently forgotten

    Not even close. You'll run out of stamina significantly quicker on a stam character spamming dodge rolling or blocking a soul assault than you would on a magicka character spamming shields.

    I didn't conveniently forget anything. You obviously don't play stamina.

    He has the analogy wrong.

    Shields are like block, vigor, and rally on a heavy armor build, and cost similar.

    Dodge roll is completely different, we both do it and it has an increasing cost fatigue on it.

    This is correct.

    It is easy to discuss something in a vacuum and good that someone breaks that vacuum with a dose of reality.

    What OP and some of the others do not seem to realize is after shields were nerfed Zos turned around and nerfed stamina. So maybe we need to start talking about what to nerf on stam.
    Edited by idk on June 14, 2018 6:54AM
  • Xsorus
    Xsorus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    For those who think shields should get any mitigation; see swordmasters from warhammer online as to why that’s a bad idea...
  • Swimguy
    Swimguy
    ✭✭✭
    make elemental weapons deal oblivion damage against shieled enemies. boom done.
  • Maulkin
    Maulkin
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Swimguy wrote: »
    make elemental weapons deal oblivion damage against shieled enemies. boom done.

    You should be Head of Science at NASA or something with ingenious ideas like this. You're wasting your talents in the ESO forums. Go change the world.
    EU | PC | AD
  • Biro123
    Biro123
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Xsorus wrote: »
    For those who think shields should get any mitigation; see swordmasters from warhammer online as to why that’s a bad idea...

    Could never get away with that class.. always felt clunky. KOTBS was my thing - played it for ages - name of Lemmy. Always thought your name was familiar, Guess you played the forums there too?
    Minalan owes me a beer.

    PC EU Megaserver
    Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
    Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
    Aidee - Magsorc - DC
    Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
    Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.
  • Zelos
    Zelos
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    In my opinion I think that instead of nerfing things (which is the zos way) you should buff others, in pve magicka dominates becuz of its advantages to survivability, while stamina only get mitigation through really blade cloak or blocking. Maybe a medium armor buff to survival would help as the way medium armor survives is by roll dodging, and you will lose dps doing that as well as stamina if done to much, while some can just ward and still dps with no effective "5 second cooldown" or the next one costs more. Stamina isn't used as much as magicka in pve and I think a buff to survivability mechs to medium armor OTHER then rolling would be great for end game PvE and PvP alike
    Aeonhack - AD Stamina Nightblade - 5 Star General

    CP1200

    Creator and user of "Questionable" addons and game mechanics.
  • Tonturri
    Tonturri
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Galarthor wrote: »
    Tonturri wrote: »
    Maybe reduce shield strength across the board, but allow 'em to benefit from armor res somehow. Say your average sorc shield is 10k. Average sorc armor is 7-10k, but let's go with 10k for simplicity. There's an incoming 10k hit. Reducing shield strength by 20% will make the shield absorb 8k, with 2k overflow. However, if shields benefitted from armor along with reducing the value of said shield, the sorc would take...approximately the same damage (10k armor is somewhere between 14 and 17% reduction). Admittedly this is a very, very specific example and I'm unsure how to make it scale properly in a wider selection of scenarios, but a TLDR of my line of thinking is that shield strength could be reduced a percentage proportionate to how much more mitigation the sorc would get from suddenly benefitting from armor. This would scale in that in order for the sorc to get more armor, they'd have to give up forms of mitigation - most likely magicka, thus reducing the strength of the shield and ensuring that you don't have sorcs with the same amount of sustain and shield value suddenly benfitting from a big chunk of extra tankiness. If a sorc wanted to put on heavy armor, he/she could, but would have fewer casts, or the sorc could get more health at the cost of shield strength but it wouldn't be a total waste of stats. I'm sure there would be an outlier where the scenario I mention above occurs where some min/maxer figures out how to get everything they got now + extra mitigation, but...I currently see no way for that to happen.

    This is a very interesting post.
    As for the quoted section, I think the solution would lie in splitting up the morphs and make them scale with light armor.
    Something like this:

    Morph 1: Shield works the way it currently does, but the shield strength depends on the pieces of light armor you wear (similar to dampened magic, but maybe a higher/lower rate depending on the overall changes). This would prevent that heavy armor users with lots of mitigation also can slot powerful shields that are meant for squishy light armor wearers that only got 1/4 of the armor mitigation (without considering HA buffs to blocking). Other effects such as minor intellect could be added depending on the current balance situation.

    Morph 2: Only mitigates damage that got through block. Make it a relative mitigation tool (% based) or an absolute one (points based). Cost and duration would have to be adjusted to how and what amount of damage the shield actually mitigates.

    This way you can circumvent the issue with the CCs in PvP b/c you don't have blocking cost that have no benefit.

    In the wake of these changes I'd also change at least Dampening Magic. Maybe make it restore stamina when it by a stamina ability. It already has a fittingly green icon. Doesn't have to be the same amount as magicka returned from Harness Magicka.

    @ Your thoughts concerning Dampening and Harness. The point of mentioning those abilities in my post was to show that one morph - Dampening - is well designed, while the other - Harness - sees wild fluctuations in effectiveness (or effectiveness against stam builds when that likely wasn't the design intention, since a decent amount of stam setups can't avoid running magic dmg stuff). I'd also rather the morphs be more...worthy of consideration, instead of "Oh I need this, so I'll take harness. The other morph is useless for me." Or the other way around and taking Dampened because harness would be ineffective for that build. And tbh magicka setups don't need more stam regen - I think that'd be far too much.

    For Harness, I'd probably change it to a 'deals x magic damage to attackers when struck, scales with how many light armor pieces you have on'. That'd make Harness the more offensive morph and Dampened more defensive. Imo dampened could use a slight buff though, it doesn't really feel like it makes a difference with all the dmg flying around these days. Maybe have Dampened give minor prot while active. Edit: one morph gives minor prot while active and the other gives minor zerk while active - the buffs lasts while the shields are up and then for x duration after the shield falls per light armor piece equipped. Thoughts?

    Concerning your mention of different morphs - what skill are you talking about? o.o I assume it's concerning sorcerer's hardened/empowered ward, but I can't tell and wanted to make sure before typing out a whole buncha stuff.
    Edited by Tonturri on June 14, 2018 3:08PM
  • Maulkin
    Maulkin
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Tonturri wrote: »
    Galarthor wrote: »
    Tonturri wrote: »
    Maybe reduce shield strength across the board, but allow 'em to benefit from armor res somehow. Say your average sorc shield is 10k. Average sorc armor is 7-10k, but let's go with 10k for simplicity. There's an incoming 10k hit. Reducing shield strength by 20% will make the shield absorb 8k, with 2k overflow. However, if shields benefitted from armor along with reducing the value of said shield, the sorc would take...approximately the same damage (10k armor is somewhere between 14 and 17% reduction). Admittedly this is a very, very specific example and I'm unsure how to make it scale properly in a wider selection of scenarios, but a TLDR of my line of thinking is that shield strength could be reduced a percentage proportionate to how much more mitigation the sorc would get from suddenly benefitting from armor. This would scale in that in order for the sorc to get more armor, they'd have to give up forms of mitigation - most likely magicka, thus reducing the strength of the shield and ensuring that you don't have sorcs with the same amount of sustain and shield value suddenly benfitting from a big chunk of extra tankiness. If a sorc wanted to put on heavy armor, he/she could, but would have fewer casts, or the sorc could get more health at the cost of shield strength but it wouldn't be a total waste of stats. I'm sure there would be an outlier where the scenario I mention above occurs where some min/maxer figures out how to get everything they got now + extra mitigation, but...I currently see no way for that to happen.

    This is a very interesting post.
    As for the quoted section, I think the solution would lie in splitting up the morphs and make them scale with light armor.
    Something like this:

    Morph 1: Shield works the way it currently does, but the shield strength depends on the pieces of light armor you wear (similar to dampened magic, but maybe a higher/lower rate depending on the overall changes). This would prevent that heavy armor users with lots of mitigation also can slot powerful shields that are meant for squishy light armor wearers that only got 1/4 of the armor mitigation (without considering HA buffs to blocking). Other effects such as minor intellect could be added depending on the current balance situation.

    Morph 2: Only mitigates damage that got through block. Make it a relative mitigation tool (% based) or an absolute one (points based). Cost and duration would have to be adjusted to how and what amount of damage the shield actually mitigates.

    This way you can circumvent the issue with the CCs in PvP b/c you don't have blocking cost that have no benefit.

    In the wake of these changes I'd also change at least Dampening Magic. Maybe make it restore stamina when it by a stamina ability. It already has a fittingly green icon. Doesn't have to be the same amount as magicka returned from Harness Magicka.

    @ Your thoughts concerning Dampening and Harness. The point of mentioning those abilities in my post was to show that one morph - Dampening - is well designed, while the other - Harness - sees wild fluctuations in effectiveness (or effectiveness against stam builds when that likely wasn't the design intention, since a decent amount of stam setups can't avoid running magic dmg stuff). I'd also rather the morphs be more...worthy of consideration, instead of "Oh I need this, so I'll take harness. The other morph is useless for me." Or the other way around and taking Dampened because harness would be ineffective for that build. And tbh magicka setups don't need more stam regen - I think that'd be far too much.

    For Harness, I'd probably change it to a 'deals x magic damage to attackers when struck, scales with how many light armor pieces you have on'. That'd make Harness the more offensive morph and Dampened more defensive. Imo dampened could use a slight buff though, it doesn't really feel like it makes a difference with all the dmg flying around these days. Maybe have Dampened give minor prot while active.

    Concerning your mention of different morphs - what skill are you talking about? o.o I assume it's concerning sorcerer's hardened/empowered ward, but I can't tell and wanted to make sure before typing out a whole buncha stuff.

    Adding a Damage mechanic to defensive ability is not the way to go. No one will pick that morph. It'll be like the morph of Crystal shield that return Frost damage, inferior to Shimmering and unused.

    Dampen should be bigger in size while Harness should be cheaper. Simple. But it should be a flat cost reduction to the skill per armour piece, instead of returning a huge amount of magicka against magic attacks. Because like you said that mechanic makes it overly efficient against Magic users and terrible against Stam users.
    EU | PC | AD
  • Strider__Roshin
    Strider__Roshin
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Zelos wrote: »
    In my opinion I think that instead of nerfing things (which is the zos way) you should buff others, in pve magicka dominates becuz of its advantages to survivability, while stamina only get mitigation through really blade cloak or blocking. Maybe a medium armor buff to survival would help as the way medium armor survives is by roll dodging, and you will lose dps doing that as well as stamina if done to much, while some can just ward and still dps with no effective "5 second cooldown" or the next one costs more. Stamina isn't used as much as magicka in pve and I think a buff to survivability mechs to medium armor OTHER then rolling would be great for end game PvE and PvP alike

    If they provided major protection while dodge rolling it would prevent medium armor from being free AP in PvP when dealing with Zaan, Haunting Curse, or Soul Assault. It would also help with their survivability in pve since dodge rolling in pve is complete garbage.
  • Minalan
    Minalan
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Daus wrote: »
    Zelos wrote: »
    In my opinion I think that instead of nerfing things (which is the zos way) you should buff others, in pve magicka dominates becuz of its advantages to survivability, while stamina only get mitigation through really blade cloak or blocking. Maybe a medium armor buff to survival would help as the way medium armor survives is by roll dodging, and you will lose dps doing that as well as stamina if done to much, while some can just ward and still dps with no effective "5 second cooldown" or the next one costs more. Stamina isn't used as much as magicka in pve and I think a buff to survivability mechs to medium armor OTHER then rolling would be great for end game PvE and PvP alike

    If they provided major protection while dodge rolling it would prevent medium armor from being free AP in PvP when dealing with Zaan, Haunting Curse, or Soul Assault. It would also help with their survivability in pve since dodge rolling in pve is complete garbage.

    Major protection on a dodge roll? Lol! :lol:

    Zaan you can cloak.
    IncapCurse you can just recloak and ignore. Or purge. It’s on a 3.5 and then a 5 second timer. You have forever to deal with it.
    Soul assault you can cloak after two seconds.

    This thread brings me joy and entertainment daily, keep the tears and horrible suggestions coming.
  • Merlin13KAGL
    Merlin13KAGL
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Maulkin wrote: »
    Swimguy wrote: »
    make elemental weapons deal oblivion damage against shieled enemies. boom done.

    You should be Head of Science at NASA or something with ingenious ideas like this. You're wasting your talents in the ESO forums. Go change the world.
    *Swim announces plans to scrap missions to Mars, replacing it with plan to attach space-rope and pull Mars to us instead.*

    The problem with threads like these is bias. Rarely are the strong points and the weaknesses of a skill discussed at the same time.

    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.

    IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.
    I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
    Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS
  • CyrusArya
    CyrusArya
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Daus wrote: »
    If they provided major protection while dodge rolling it would prevent medium armor from being free AP in PvP when dealing with Zaan, Haunting Curse, or Soul Assault. It would also help with their survivability in pve since dodge rolling in pve is complete garbage.

    You might be free AP to these things, but don’t speak as if that applies to everyone. It’s hilarious cus as a stamblade, you are best equipped to deal with Zaan and soul assault of any stam build in the game. Literally just cloak.

    It’s funny to me that someone who whines so much can so callously make such broken and unbalanced suggestions in their own favor. The self victimization and bias among some stamblades is just disgusting.
    Edited by CyrusArya on June 14, 2018 4:02PM
    A R Y A
    -Atmosphere
    -Ary'a
    Czarya
    The K-Hole ~ Phałanx
    My PvP Videos
  • bardx86
    bardx86
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Minalan wrote: »
    Daus wrote: »
    Zelos wrote: »
    In my opinion I think that instead of nerfing things (which is the zos way) you should buff others, in pve magicka dominates becuz of its advantages to survivability, while stamina only get mitigation through really blade cloak or blocking. Maybe a medium armor buff to survival would help as the way medium armor survives is by roll dodging, and you will lose dps doing that as well as stamina if done to much, while some can just ward and still dps with no effective "5 second cooldown" or the next one costs more. Stamina isn't used as much as magicka in pve and I think a buff to survivability mechs to medium armor OTHER then rolling would be great for end game PvE and PvP alike

    If they provided major protection while dodge rolling it would prevent medium armor from being free AP in PvP when dealing with Zaan, Haunting Curse, or Soul Assault. It would also help with their survivability in pve since dodge rolling in pve is complete garbage.

    Major protection on a dodge roll? Lol! :lol:

    Zaan you can cloak.
    IncapCurse you can just recloak and ignore. Or purge. It’s on a 3.5 and then a 5 second timer. You have forever to deal with it.
    Soul assault you can cloak after two seconds.

    This thread brings me joy and entertainment daily, keep the tears and horrible suggestions coming.

    Does this guy want God mode NB's or what?
  • bardx86
    bardx86
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just close this thread its stupid now. It's based on an argument that is false. If anything Sorcs need better defense for Xv1.
  • Strider__Roshin
    Strider__Roshin
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Minalan wrote: »
    Daus wrote: »
    Zelos wrote: »
    In my opinion I think that instead of nerfing things (which is the zos way) you should buff others, in pve magicka dominates becuz of its advantages to survivability, while stamina only get mitigation through really blade cloak or blocking. Maybe a medium armor buff to survival would help as the way medium armor survives is by roll dodging, and you will lose dps doing that as well as stamina if done to much, while some can just ward and still dps with no effective "5 second cooldown" or the next one costs more. Stamina isn't used as much as magicka in pve and I think a buff to survivability mechs to medium armor OTHER then rolling would be great for end game PvE and PvP alike

    If they provided major protection while dodge rolling it would prevent medium armor from being free AP in PvP when dealing with Zaan, Haunting Curse, or Soul Assault. It would also help with their survivability in pve since dodge rolling in pve is complete garbage.

    Major protection on a dodge roll? Lol! :lol:

    Zaan you can cloak.
    IncapCurse you can just recloak and ignore. Or purge. It’s on a 3.5 and then a 5 second timer. You have forever to deal with it.
    Soul assault you can cloak after two seconds.

    This thread brings me joy and entertainment daily, keep the tears and horrible suggestions coming.
    CyrusArya wrote: »
    Daus wrote: »
    If they provided major protection while dodge rolling it would prevent medium armor from being free AP in PvP when dealing with Zaan, Haunting Curse, or Soul Assault. It would also help with their survivability in pve since dodge rolling in pve is complete garbage.

    You might be free AP to these things, but don’t speak as if that applies to everyone. It’s hilarious cus as a stamblade, you are best equipped to deal with Zaan and soul assault of any stam build in the game. Literally just cloak.

    It’s funny to me that someone who whines so much can so callously make such broken and unbalanced suggestions in their own favor. The self victimization and bias among some stamblades is just disgusting.

    Let explain something very simple to you two. I don't use shadowy disguise, and you are giving a suggestion that pertains to literally only one play style. The fact that you're giving only suggestions for a shadowy disguise using stamblade really goes to show you how bad medium armor has it. Is medium armor only for stamblades? What about DKs, Wardens, Templars or Sorcs? Are they limited to only using heavy? Why? How about we make damage shields as terrible as dodge rolling in PvP? This way everyone is equally crappy, and wearing heavy armor except for Nightblades because they can go invisible (a boring way to play imo).
  • Swimguy
    Swimguy
    ✭✭✭
    Maulkin wrote: »
    Swimguy wrote: »
    make elemental weapons deal oblivion damage against shieled enemies. boom done.

    You should be Head of Science at NASA or something with ingenious ideas like this. You're wasting your talents in the ESO forums. Go change the world.

    haha thank you. The problem medium armor users are describing is coming from skills that are unblockable and undodgeable. Theres like 6-7 of these right? Are there any abilities made to counter damage shields? NO. This is where the disconnect is. The only options stamina users have to deal with shields are from weapon sets (which suck) so obviously people are gonna complain when a mag sorc is able to easily tank out 2-3 people just pressing one button. People forget that in PvP sorcs have the highest burst (gank or not) and the biggest shields.. so yes magsorc/shield spam is easy mode, nerf shields.
  • Tonturri
    Tonturri
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Maulkin wrote: »
    Tonturri wrote: »
    Galarthor wrote: »
    Tonturri wrote: »
    Maybe reduce shield strength across the board, but allow 'em to benefit from armor res somehow. Say your average sorc shield is 10k. Average sorc armor is 7-10k, but let's go with 10k for simplicity. There's an incoming 10k hit. Reducing shield strength by 20% will make the shield absorb 8k, with 2k overflow. However, if shields benefitted from armor along with reducing the value of said shield, the sorc would take...approximately the same damage (10k armor is somewhere between 14 and 17% reduction). Admittedly this is a very, very specific example and I'm unsure how to make it scale properly in a wider selection of scenarios, but a TLDR of my line of thinking is that shield strength could be reduced a percentage proportionate to how much more mitigation the sorc would get from suddenly benefitting from armor. This would scale in that in order for the sorc to get more armor, they'd have to give up forms of mitigation - most likely magicka, thus reducing the strength of the shield and ensuring that you don't have sorcs with the same amount of sustain and shield value suddenly benfitting from a big chunk of extra tankiness. If a sorc wanted to put on heavy armor, he/she could, but would have fewer casts, or the sorc could get more health at the cost of shield strength but it wouldn't be a total waste of stats. I'm sure there would be an outlier where the scenario I mention above occurs where some min/maxer figures out how to get everything they got now + extra mitigation, but...I currently see no way for that to happen.

    This is a very interesting post.
    As for the quoted section, I think the solution would lie in splitting up the morphs and make them scale with light armor.
    Something like this:

    Morph 1: Shield works the way it currently does, but the shield strength depends on the pieces of light armor you wear (similar to dampened magic, but maybe a higher/lower rate depending on the overall changes). This would prevent that heavy armor users with lots of mitigation also can slot powerful shields that are meant for squishy light armor wearers that only got 1/4 of the armor mitigation (without considering HA buffs to blocking). Other effects such as minor intellect could be added depending on the current balance situation.

    Morph 2: Only mitigates damage that got through block. Make it a relative mitigation tool (% based) or an absolute one (points based). Cost and duration would have to be adjusted to how and what amount of damage the shield actually mitigates.

    This way you can circumvent the issue with the CCs in PvP b/c you don't have blocking cost that have no benefit.

    In the wake of these changes I'd also change at least Dampening Magic. Maybe make it restore stamina when it by a stamina ability. It already has a fittingly green icon. Doesn't have to be the same amount as magicka returned from Harness Magicka.

    @ Your thoughts concerning Dampening and Harness. The point of mentioning those abilities in my post was to show that one morph - Dampening - is well designed, while the other - Harness - sees wild fluctuations in effectiveness (or effectiveness against stam builds when that likely wasn't the design intention, since a decent amount of stam setups can't avoid running magic dmg stuff). I'd also rather the morphs be more...worthy of consideration, instead of "Oh I need this, so I'll take harness. The other morph is useless for me." Or the other way around and taking Dampened because harness would be ineffective for that build. And tbh magicka setups don't need more stam regen - I think that'd be far too much.

    For Harness, I'd probably change it to a 'deals x magic damage to attackers when struck, scales with how many light armor pieces you have on'. That'd make Harness the more offensive morph and Dampened more defensive. Imo dampened could use a slight buff though, it doesn't really feel like it makes a difference with all the dmg flying around these days. Maybe have Dampened give minor prot while active.

    Concerning your mention of different morphs - what skill are you talking about? o.o I assume it's concerning sorcerer's hardened/empowered ward, but I can't tell and wanted to make sure before typing out a whole buncha stuff.

    Adding a Damage mechanic to defensive ability is not the way to go. No one will pick that morph. It'll be like the morph of Crystal shield that return Frost damage, inferior to Shimmering and unused.

    Dampen should be bigger in size while Harness should be cheaper. Simple. But it should be a flat cost reduction to the skill per armour piece, instead of returning a huge amount of magicka against magic attacks. Because like you said that mechanic makes it overly efficient against Magic users and terrible against Stam users.

    Shimmering is its own special case, and I find that the other morph is unused mostly because Shimmering is extremely strong in a lot of scenarios. Consider the strength of a skill compared to the other morph and its strength in a variety of scenarios. Like DK armor skill - returns dmg, but IIRC only to melee attackers, and if you use flurry against a DK it can really hurt (or any other multi-attack skill - I don't know if it counts jabs). What if the shield retuned a percentage of dmg done to it as the damage was done? So not only would it have a cap and prevent the skill from getting out of control, but your opponent would have some sort of opportunity to...deal with it. Somehow. Like if they cast an ult and the shield was up, they'd take a not-insignificant chunk of dmg back all at once, as opposed to casting a delayed ult/wearing it down with weaves.

    I agree your idea is much simpler and easier to balance, and if ZOS had to choose between yours and mine they'd probably go with yours xD I'm just spitting out suggestions here and don't want to see another morph where the differences are relatively minuscule or pointless for the sake of ease of dealing with the skill. I've found ZOS has a ton of opportunities to add unique stuff to morphs, but instead almost always go with what I find to be boring options.

    Also mind that however much dampened is bigger than harness, it's going to get reduced by battle spirit, while a cost decrease won't suffer in such a manner, so I'd prefer a morph that has a mechanic that doesn't suffer more from the halfing the bigger the shield is (bigger shield -> more shield strength lost to battle spirit, even if the shield is actually bigger). Hence my other suggestion of minor prot and zerk while shield was up and for a duration after the shield was taken down.
  • CyrusArya
    CyrusArya
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Dude if you willingly choose to play a gimped build by using the wrong morph of a skill, that’s on you. Don’t blame the class or armor type for that. I do agree medium armor could use slight buffs. But do you not see how ridiculous it is to want major protection in dodge rolls? Lmao. Especially in a QQ thread about damage shields, an essential defensive technique that no good players struggle against.

    It’s such a ridiculous suggestion, and ruins your credibility. You have too much bias and not enough perspective. No stamblade isn’t weak. No damage shields are not too strong. You just need to learn to play.
    A R Y A
    -Atmosphere
    -Ary'a
    Czarya
    The K-Hole ~ Phałanx
    My PvP Videos
  • Strider__Roshin
    Strider__Roshin
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    CyrusArya wrote: »
    Dude if you willingly choose to play a gimped build by using the wrong morph of a skill, that’s on you. Don’t blame the class or armor type for that. I do agree medium armor could use slight buffs. But do you not see how ridiculous it is to want major protection in dodge rolls? Lmao. Especially in a QQ thread about damage shields, an essential defensive technique that no good players struggle against.

    It’s such a ridiculous suggestion, and ruins your credibility. You have too much bias and not enough perspective. No stamblade isn’t weak. No damage shields are not too strong. You just need to learn to play.

    Yes medium armor is too weak due to unavoidable damage. Yes damage shields are too strong due to not enough counters. Medium armor needs to be brought up or damage shields need to be brought down, and that goes for both pve and PvP.
  • Galarthor
    Galarthor
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tonturri wrote: »
    @ Your thoughts concerning Dampening and Harness. The point of mentioning those abilities in my post was to show that one morph - Dampening - is well designed, while the other - Harness - sees wild fluctuations in effectiveness (or effectiveness against stam builds when that likely wasn't the design intention, since a decent amount of stam setups can't avoid running magic dmg stuff). I'd also rather the morphs be more...worthy of consideration, instead of "Oh I need this, so I'll take harness. The other morph is useless for me." Or the other way around and taking Dampened because harness would be ineffective for that build. And tbh magicka setups don't need more stam regen - I think that'd be far too much.

    Well the the stamina regen was just a thought and I specifically mentioned that it could be less than the magicka return from harness, b/c otherwise the stamian regen might be too high against stamina builds. Another method would be to allow for magicka return when taking damage from stamina abilities. I really don't think there should be a Shield available to everybody that is / can be as powerful as the sorc shields. Pretty much the same way there is no heal as powerful as Breath Of Life outside the Templar Class. And no Cloak as effective as that of NBs. Shields are the magSorcs signature defensive ability and no other class should be able to use shields as efficiently and effectively as magSorcs.

    One way of ensuring that the freely available shields /aka annullment & morphs) are not too strong relative to the Sorc-specific shields and thus might cause balance issues if, for example, pair with Breath of Life of a Templar would be to give Sorcs a passive that makes shield strength scale with the Light Armor pieces worn. You could even make the bonus different rates for the different shields. (E.g. 5% per piece for Conjured Ward & Morphs and 2% for Annullemnt & Morphs). I'd even argue of making the percentage as high as possible (perhaps even exponential gains) to encourage conscious decisions and having a real trade-off between strong shields and squishy beneath or mediocre shields but decently strong mitigation beneath.
    Tonturri wrote: »
    For Harness, I'd probably change it to a 'deals x magic damage to attackers when struck, scales with how many light armor pieces you have on'. That'd make Harness the more offensive morph and Dampened more defensive. Imo dampened could use a slight buff though, it doesn't really feel like it makes a difference with all the dmg flying around these days. Maybe have Dampened give minor prot while active. Edit: one morph gives minor prot while active and the other gives minor zerk while active - the buffs lasts while the shields are up and then for x duration after the shield falls per light armor piece equipped. Thoughts?

    I really don't think damage dealing defensive mechanisms are the way to go. People are already feaking out b/c they take 2k damage from a stun potentialyl every 6 seconds. Imagine what they will say if they constantly take damage from shields. There is already a strong anti-sorc sentiment on the forums. The only things I see that won't end up causing certain people to open another 10 "Nerf Sorcs" threads are regen and some minor heals maybe similar to the wardens or some buffs/debuffs of the major/minor system as sorcs are seriously lacking in this regard. Though I am not sure how desirable it would be for PvE'ers to have these buffs attached to shields.
    Tonturri wrote: »
    Concerning your mention of different morphs - what skill are you talking about? o.o I assume it's concerning sorcerer's hardened/empowered ward, but I can't tell and wanted to make sure before typing out a whole buncha stuff.

    Yes.
  • CyrusArya
    CyrusArya
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Daus wrote: »

    Yes medium armor is too weak due to unavoidable damage. Yes damage shields are too strong due to not enough counters. Medium armor needs to be brought up or damage shields need to be brought down, and that goes for both pve and PvP.

    The counter to damage shields is knowing how to properly apply pressure and dps.
    A R Y A
    -Atmosphere
    -Ary'a
    Czarya
    The K-Hole ~ Phałanx
    My PvP Videos
  • Strider__Roshin
    Strider__Roshin
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    CyrusArya wrote: »
    Daus wrote: »

    Yes medium armor is too weak due to unavoidable damage. Yes damage shields are too strong due to not enough counters. Medium armor needs to be brought up or damage shields need to be brought down, and that goes for both pve and PvP.

    The counter to damage shields is knowing how to properly apply pressure and dps.

    No that is how you defeat players in general. That is not a counter to damage shields.

    A simple illustration:

    We have 2 magsorcs (you being one of them), and 3 potential victims.

    Victim 1 is a medium armor stam sorc who listens to Rolling by Limp Bizkit on repeat, and is currently rolling non-stop.

    Victim 2 is a heavy armor stam sorc that's quite vain, and has placed a mirror on the back of his shield. Needless to say he's looking at it now.

    Victim 3 is a magsorc who goes by the name of "Hardened Magicka" and refuses to be seen without a 23k damage shield.

    You have the jump on these three. You both intend to use Haunting Curse first thing, but one of you has a Meteor ready, and the other has agreed to use Rune Cage just before impact. Who do you both target? And why?

    Just for clarification: the medium build has 17.5k spell and physical resistance and 22k health, the heavy armor build has 28k spell and physical resistance and 28k health, and the light armor build has 15.5k spell and 10k physical resistance and 20k health.
    Edited by Strider__Roshin on June 14, 2018 8:59PM
  • CyrusArya
    CyrusArya
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    You’re setting up a straw man. But it would go medium armor stam sorc, then magicka sorc, then heavy stam sorc. The thing is tho, medium armor is not the meta for stam sorc so your situation really proves nothing except that the gimped build should be the first to target. Between a proper meta heavy stam sorc and a mag sorc, you better believe I’d focus the mag sorc. In fact, sorcs are one of the worst classes in the game when focused by multiple players and in most fights is the first target I call out.

    I agree that medium armor needs a buff. And if you refer to the very first post I made in this thread, I said very plainly that rune cage is op. But damage shields are fine, and your suggestion on major protection during dodge roll is ridiculous to anyone who understands the game and isn’t a biased stamblade. You just really have no perspective.
    A R Y A
    -Atmosphere
    -Ary'a
    Czarya
    The K-Hole ~ Phałanx
    My PvP Videos
  • Strider__Roshin
    Strider__Roshin
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    CyrusArya wrote: »
    You’re setting up a straw man. But it would go medium armor stam sorc, then magicka sorc, then heavy stam sorc. The thing is tho, medium armor is not the meta for stam sorc so your situation really proves nothing except that the gimped build should be the first to target. Between a proper meta heavy stam sorc and a mag sorc, you better believe I’d focus the mag sorc. In fact, sorcs are one of the worst classes in the game when focused by multiple players and in most fights is the first target I call out.

    I agree that medium armor needs a buff. And if you refer to the very first post I made in this thread, I said very plainly that rune cage is op. But damage shields are fine, and your suggestion on major protection during dodge roll is ridiculous to anyone who understands the game and isn’t a biased stamblade. You just really have no perspective.

    And what did I say before I gave the scenario? I said either medium needs to be brought up or damage shields need to be brought down. Before that post someone was asking for ideas on how to improve medium's survivability. Medium armor is too swishy in both pve and PvP so merely suggesting innate crit resistance would only improve one aspect, but not the other. I could have suggested that we could improve upon the CP passive "Phase" but that would not do a thing for non-CP. I could've suggested a flat % value mitigated while dodge rolling, but if the user had major protection active then it would stack with that % mitigated which would then make it way too strong. Minor Protection is so easily accessible that it wouldn't have changed a thing; which is why I recommended what I did. So what's the issue? Do you have a better suggestion or just more insults?
  • Galarthor
    Galarthor
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Daus wrote: »
    No that is how you defeat players in general. That is not a counter to damage shields.

    A simple illustration:

    We have 2 magsorcs (you being one of them), and 3 potential victims.

    Victim 1 is a medium armor stam sorc who listens to Rolling by Linkin Park on repeat, and is currently rolling non-stop.

    Victim 2 is a heavy armor stam sorc that's quite vain, and has placed a mirror on the back of his shield. Needless to say he's looking at it now.

    Victim 3 is a magsorc who goes by the name of "Hardened Magicka" and refuses to be seen without a 23k damage shield.

    You have the jump on these three. You both intend to use Haunting Curse first thing, but one of you has a Meteor ready, and the other has agreed to use Rune Cage just before impact. Who do you both target? And why?

    Just for clarification: the medium build has 17.5k spell and physical resistance and 22k health, the heavy armor build has 28k spell and physical resistance and 28k health, and the light armor build has 15.5k spell and 10k physical resistance and 20k health.

    Easy! The sorc. We wait till his shields are about to run out -> curses halfway through the 6 sec, stun and meteor towards the end. The other 2 still have passive defensive tools. I am also not sure where you get your resistances from but LA has 1/4 of HA and MA 3/4 of HA. Not sure your setup allows for an accurate comparision.

    Besides it's not "a" 23k damage shield but at least 2 different ones. So he is spending minimum 1/3 of his time applying defensive mechanisms. And under pressure you quickly reach a point where you can only reapply 1 shield b/c said shield would be depleted before you can stack a second shield on top.

    Besides, your scenario is very biased. You are pitting 2 magSorcs against a single target. You can construct a similar scenario for any other class and then call that class OP. Imagine 2 magDKs, one stuns you and the other one leaps onto you while both the skorias proc all the while their DoTs have dimished your HP / shields (depending on the class).

    Btw, why are you stopping at Major Protection? Why not also throw in some Minor Protection, Major & Minor Mending, and some Major & Minor Evasion, as well as Major & Minor Defile on all targets in a 35m radius ... just to be on the safe side.
    Edited by Galarthor on June 14, 2018 9:08PM
  • Tonturri
    Tonturri
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Daus wrote: »
    CyrusArya wrote: »
    Dude if you willingly choose to play a gimped build by using the wrong morph of a skill, that’s on you. Don’t blame the class or armor type for that. I do agree medium armor could use slight buffs. But do you not see how ridiculous it is to want major protection in dodge rolls? Lmao. Especially in a QQ thread about damage shields, an essential defensive technique that no good players struggle against.

    It’s such a ridiculous suggestion, and ruins your credibility. You have too much bias and not enough perspective. No stamblade isn’t weak. No damage shields are not too strong. You just need to learn to play.

    Yes medium armor is too weak due to unavoidable damage. Yes damage shields are too strong due to not enough counters. Medium armor needs to be brought up or damage shields need to be brought down, and that goes for both pve and PvP.

    Sloads, shieldbreaker, an entire CP star, DoTs in general (or you could call it sustained pressure - such as loading up on DoTs and then LA + skill weave), other sources of oblivion damage I may be forgetting...Shields have HARD counters and a variety of soft counters.

    Take a look at the many other posts in this thread that explain the mechanics of shields, then come back and explain - in detail with numbers - why you think shields are too strong. Or message it to me + a uesp link to your build :) I'd be glad to step through it.

  • Baphomet
    Baphomet
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Roll-dodging and avoiding most types of attacks for 3-4 seconds is more overpowered than any shield.
    - The Psijic Order
    - TKO
    - Dominant Dominion
    - The Noore
Sign In or Register to comment.