What is the point of PTS class feedback?

ZOS_GinaBruno · May 2018

Hey everyone,

We understand you're frustrated and disappointed there won't be any additional changes to class balance. No, really. That isn't a canned response - the frustration today has been noticed. While we did implement several changes to class balance in the first PTS patch, there's still more to be done. Unfortunately, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to do everything and we don't want to implement changes sloppily (which will introduce loads of risk to other abilities and systems). In these cases, we need to prioritize. As mentioned earlier this morning, the current priority is making sure the new item sets are balanced and fixing outstanding bugs, among a few other things.

It's worth noting we are still moving forward with the Class Representative Program mentioned a few weeks back, and are still in the process of narrowing down the nominations to a group of about 10-12 players. To give you some insight, we've gotten it down to about 30 players as of today. This program will help give us additional insight to the current class pain points and, if everything works as planned, open up the dialogue between everyone to give some more transparency which we know could use some improvement. We hope to have this spun up by time Summerset launches, so it will be soon.

As far as the PTS class feedback threads, these do prove to be useful to have everything centralized in a single thread. In the future, though, we're talking about limiting these threads to the updates where we plan to actively make changes to class abilities to better set expectations.

Sandman929 · May 2018

There was class balancing in the first PTS? Or was there what we're supposed to call class balancing in the first PTS?

jediprime74 · May 2018

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone,

We understand you're frustrated and disappointed there won't be any additional changes to class balance. No, really. That isn't a canned response - the frustration today has been noticed. While we did implement several changes to class balance in the first PTS patch, there's still more to be done. Unfortunately, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to do everything and we don't want to implement changes sloppily (which will introduce loads of risk to other abilities and systems). In these cases, we need to prioritize. As mentioned earlier this morning, the current priority is making sure the new item sets are balanced and fixing outstanding bugs, among a few other things.

It's worth noting we are still moving forward with the Class Representative Program mentioned a few weeks back, and are still in the process of narrowing down the nominations to a group of about 10-12 players. To give you some insight, we've gotten it down to about 30 players as of today. This program will help give us additional insight to the current class pain points and, if everything works as planned, open up the dialogue between everyone to give some more transparency which we know could use some improvement. We hope to have this spun up by time Summerset launches, so it will be soon.

As far as the PTS class feedback threads, these do prove to be useful to have everything centralized in a single thread. In the future, though, we're talking about limiting these threads to the updates where we plan to actively make changes to class abilities to better set expectations.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Would you be so kind as to give us an update on the issue of werewolf light attack damage? It received a 40% nerf, which was not indicated in any of the Patch Notes, and the thread dedicated to discussing that issue has received no response from any ZOS employee, so we are unsure if the issue is a bug or if it was intentional. If the former, it would be nice to see an acknowledgment and some idea of whether it is being fixed. If it is the latter, we would very much like for it to be included in Patch Notes along with an explanation of why the bread and butter damage mechanic for Werewolves is being nerfed to the point that most of those running WW builds will drop that skill line entirely.

templesus · May 2018

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone,

We understand you're frustrated and disappointed there won't be any additional changes to class balance. No, really. That isn't a canned response - the frustration today has been noticed. While we did implement several changes to class balance in the first PTS patch, there's still more to be done. Unfortunately, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to do everything and we don't want to implement changes sloppily (which will introduce loads of risk to other abilities and systems). In these cases, we need to prioritize. As mentioned earlier this morning, the current priority is making sure the new item sets are balanced and fixing outstanding bugs, among a few other things.

It's worth noting we are still moving forward with the Class Representative Program mentioned a few weeks back, and are still in the process of narrowing down the nominations to a group of about 10-12 players. To give you some insight, we've gotten it down to about 30 players as of today. This program will help give us additional insight to the current class pain points and, if everything works as planned, open up the dialogue between everyone to give some more transparency which we know could use some improvement. We hope to have this spun up by time Summerset launches, so it will be soon.

As far as the PTS class feedback threads, these do prove to be useful to have everything centralized in a single thread. In the future, though, we're talking about limiting these threads to the updates where we plan to actively make changes to class abilities to better set expectations.

To sum it up; Your priority is everything you’ve implemented that is going to be behind a pay wall, rather then the core balance of the game you have been promising for months now, correct?

Duly noted.

casparian · May 2018

Thanks for the dialogue, Gina.

I guess the main disconnect here is that players' priorities and devs' priorities are in very different places. Of course there aren't enough hours in a day to create a new crafting system, quest content, and skill line while also revamping all five classes. We get that. Which is why we're frustrated that the devs, patch after patch, keep devoting their (understandably limited) time and energy to making new stuff instead of fixing our classes. "We didn't have enough time" misses the point -- to a lot of us, that sounds like a reason to not put out new content, not a reason to neglect existing content.

I understand that fixing existing issues is much harder to monetize than pumping out a new land to explore, but at some point in order to retain players you're going to need to make us feel like the time we're putting into the classes we play is time well spent.

Sleep724 · May 2018

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone,

We understand you're frustrated and disappointed there won't be any additional changes to class balance. No, really. That isn't a canned response - the frustration today has been noticed. While we did implement several changes to class balance in the first PTS patch, there's still more to be done. Unfortunately, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to do everything and we don't want to implement changes sloppily (which will introduce loads of risk to other abilities and systems). In these cases, we need to prioritize. As mentioned earlier this morning, the current priority is making sure the new item sets are balanced and fixing outstanding bugs, among a few other things.

It's worth noting we are still moving forward with the Class Representative Program mentioned a few weeks back, and are still in the process of narrowing down the nominations to a group of about 10-12 players. To give you some insight, we've gotten it down to about 30 players as of today. This program will help give us additional insight to the current class pain points and, if everything works as planned, open up the dialogue between everyone to give some more transparency which we know could use some improvement. We hope to have this spun up by time Summerset launches, so it will be soon.

As far as the PTS class feedback threads, these do prove to be useful to have everything centralized in a single thread. In the future, though, we're talking about limiting these threads to the updates where we plan to actively make changes to class abilities to better set expectations.

People are upset because changes to class balance have been mentioned a lot since morrowind and nothing really has changed. Loads of feedback have been given every update and Summerset was the last hope for many for actual balance.

Ankael07 · May 2018

%70 of item sets remain untouched for months, years even.Only thing you guys change are Chapter sets.
So many other class/world/weapon skills are still unused in the majority of content. Again only Psijic Order skills change after the first PTS week.

I'd understand the lack of hours in the day when it comes to PTS duration but what about months of free time between DLCs and Chapter?

Sandman929 · May 2018

I had to go back and look...yeah, I guess there's a little that I'd forgotten about. But most of the time, like all updates, it's attempts at making unusable skills slightly less pathetic followed by a 3 month wait to evaluate the changes that no one wanted. A few stuns getting a second or two duration change that really amounts to nothing. A few cost changes...but there's rarely anything in the way of useless skill replacement or useless passive changing. So for the most part, the little changes that get called class balancing are forgettable.

ZOS_GinaBruno · May 2018

jediprime74 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone,

We understand you're frustrated and disappointed there won't be any additional changes to class balance. No, really. That isn't a canned response - the frustration today has been noticed. While we did implement several changes to class balance in the first PTS patch, there's still more to be done. Unfortunately, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to do everything and we don't want to implement changes sloppily (which will introduce loads of risk to other abilities and systems). In these cases, we need to prioritize. As mentioned earlier this morning, the current priority is making sure the new item sets are balanced and fixing outstanding bugs, among a few other things.

It's worth noting we are still moving forward with the Class Representative Program mentioned a few weeks back, and are still in the process of narrowing down the nominations to a group of about 10-12 players. To give you some insight, we've gotten it down to about 30 players as of today. This program will help give us additional insight to the current class pain points and, if everything works as planned, open up the dialogue between everyone to give some more transparency which we know could use some improvement. We hope to have this spun up by time Summerset launches, so it will be soon.

As far as the PTS class feedback threads, these do prove to be useful to have everything centralized in a single thread. In the future, though, we're talking about limiting these threads to the updates where we plan to actively make changes to class abilities to better set expectations.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Would you be so kind as to give us an update on the issue of werewolf light attack damage? It received a 40% nerf, which was not indicated in any of the Patch Notes, and the thread dedicated to discussing that issue has received no response from any ZOS employee, so we are unsure if the issue is a bug or if it was intentional. If the former, it would be nice to see an acknowledgment and some idea of whether it is being fixed. If it is the latter, we would very much like for it to be included in Patch Notes along with an explanation of why the bread and butter damage mechanic for Werewolves is being nerfed to the point that most of those running WW builds will drop that skill line entirely.

Just replied to that thread, but we've seen it and are digging in to see what's going on.

Feanor · May 2018

We understand you're frustrated and disappointed there won't be any additional changes to class balance.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

To me it’s not about that there are still balancing issues that need to be addressed, it’s about the changes that have been done and that have been absolutely baffling. Even if you take the developer comments into account there isn’t a thorough design vision that I can perceive.

Some examples from the feedback threads:

- You take the stun off the Deep Fissure, the reason being a high damage ability shouldn’t provide a CC. While that’s reasonable, it’s also inconsistent because there are high damage abilities that provide a CC still in the game (Incapacitating Strike for example). Also magWarden has no class CC now.

- Rune Cage. You adjusted the damage of Crystal Fragments downwards twice because it was hitting too hard apparently and had a CC (which you removed), and then you go and add unblockable and unavoidable damage to the class hard CC. Why, oh why?

- Overload light attacks. Including these into the new damage power light attacks wield is a big mistake. Empowered Overload light attacks that you can force with Rune Cage shouldn’t be a thing.

- Incapacitating Strike. Still one of the most overloaded abilities in the game. Yet it remains untouched despite being a hard CC, having high damage, applying major defile, and boosting damage by 20% for six seconds (which is even stronger now because everyone else lost Empower on skills).

- Major Defile. No changes to it, and especially no changes to the befoul CP star. It remains one of the most accessible and strongest debuffs in the game (hello Durok‘s Bane). The feedback about it was totally ignored.

- New proc sets sporting Oblivion damage. I so hoped to never see a set again that provides oblivion damage. Yet here we are. I don’t understand why oblivion damage is not a pve exclusive mechanic.

There is many more, but the above would have been easy changes. And what’s so disturbing to me is that these things show a serious issue with the underlying game design vision. Or is it the intent to go back to unavoidable damage and players one shotting each other with close to no counterplay? I’d really love to know what the devs want this game to be, especially in PvP.

Thanks for your kind consideration.

Bakkagami · May 2018

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO wrote: »

Bakkagami wrote: »

The worst thing zos can do is end up homogenizing all the classes to appease a few peoples misguided quest for "balance".

Implying homogenization is the only way to get good balance. Just because it's the method most devs turn to doesn't mean it's the only method. It's the easiest/laziest and most devs are both bad at it and uninterested, as they're almost all corporate shills who just want to do whatever their bosses tell them to do to keep their job.

I always idolized game programmers as some kind of cool people. If normal programmers were mail delivery drivers or schoolbus drivers, game devs were the racecar drivers. In it for the passion with full latitude to do what they want so long as they won in the end (winning meaning sell enough to justify the dev costs).

Come to realize they're just semi-truck drivers who are still just doing the job to get paid like any normal person who tolerates their work life.

You seem to have misinterpreted what I was trying to point out. I'm not trying to imply homogenization is the only way, on the contrary, homogenization is most definitely NOT the way to go imo. However, much of the forum outcry for class buffs are in that direction. ("X's skill, needs a damage buff because it has less dps than the others", "Y should get snare removal because X and Z has it", etc.) There's no need for classes to perform at the same level in every area.

amir412 · May 2018

Feanor wrote: »

We understand you're frustrated and disappointed there won't be any additional changes to class balance.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

To me it’s not about that there are still balancing issues that need to be addressed, it’s about the changes that have been done and that have been absolutely baffling. Even if you take the developer comments into account there isn’t a thorough design vision that I can perceive.

Some examples from the feedback threads:

- You take the stun off the Deep Fissure, the reason being a high damage ability shouldn’t provide a CC. While that’s reasonable, it’s also inconsistent because there are high damage abilities that provide a CC still in the game (Incapacitating Strike for example). Also magWarden has no class CC now.

- Rune Cage. You adjusted the damage of Crystal Fragments downwards twice because it was hitting too hard apparently and had a CC (which you removed), and then you go and add unblockable and unavoidable damage to the class hard CC. Why, oh why?

- Overload light attacks. Including these into the new damage power light attacks wield is a big mistake. Empowered Overload light attacks that you can force with Rune Cage shouldn’t be a thing.

- Incapacitating Strike. Still one of the most overloaded abilities in the game. Yet it remains untouched despite being a hard CC, having high damage, applying major defile, and boosting damage by 20% for six seconds (which is even stronger now because everyone else lost Empower on skills).

- Major Defile. No changes to it, and especially no changes to the befoul CP star. It remains one of the most accessible and strongest debuffs in the game (hello Durok‘s Bane). The feedback about it was totally ignored.

- New proc sets sporting Oblivion damage. I so hoped to never see a set again that provides oblivion damage. Yet here we are. I don’t understand why oblivion damage is not a pve exclusive mechanic.

There is many more, but the above would have been easy changes. And what’s so disturbing to me is that these things show a serious issue with the underlying game design vision. Or is it the intent to go back to unavoidable damage and players one shotting each other with close to no counterplay? I’d really love to know what the devs want this game to be, especially in PvP.

Thanks for your kind consideration.

This is sums up exactly wtf is wrong with PVP atm, I mean its a long way, but this things need to be ur top priority for a start.
Pepole complaining magplar main spamable skill is bugged for months - nothing on that issue.

b.bredfeldtub17_ESO · May 2018

Bugs being top priority is understandable, but after that, balance should be it. You're focusing on new shiny things you can advertise in summerset, but will you ever actually have time in between expansions that you will actually dedicate towards balance heavily or exclusively? My searching into your past dev cycles says no.

ak_pvp · May 2018

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone,

We understand you're frustrated and disappointed there won't be any additional changes to class balance. No, really. That isn't a canned response - the frustration today has been noticed. While we did implement several changes to class balance in the first PTS patch, there's still more to be done. Unfortunately, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to do everything and we don't want to implement changes sloppily (which will introduce loads of risk to other abilities and systems). In these cases, we need to prioritize. As mentioned earlier this morning, the current priority is making sure the new item sets are balanced and fixing outstanding bugs, among a few other things.

It's worth noting we are still moving forward with the Class Representative Program mentioned a few weeks back, and are still in the process of narrowing down the nominations to a group of about 10-12 players. To give you some insight, we've gotten it down to about 30 players as of today. This program will help give us additional insight to the current class pain points and, if everything works as planned, open up the dialogue between everyone to give some more transparency which we know could use some improvement. We hope to have this spun up by time Summerset launches, so it will be soon.

As far as the PTS class feedback threads, these do prove to be useful to have everything centralized in a single thread. In the future, though, we're talking about limiting these threads to the updates where we plan to actively make changes to class abilities to better set expectations.

This was a major class balance update though, and none of the feedback was taken into account. I can get it if it was like last patch, where it was based around synergies, but why not actually respond to them. But let's be real, If nothing changes, it's a canned response, just like the initial response to pyandon motifs, if you want to gain trust in thd player base, it needs proof.

The enough hours in the day thing is quite untrue. I remember a while back where they could change problems quicker (I.e. Response to curse and dragon blood) as opposed to this complacency. Especially with the small amount of balance changes overall being only quarterly, take a page out of facepunches book, where they constantly monitor and adjust to get a better game.

Remember that if you want the updates to be more worth it, you have to make players invested, and one of the core systems are the classes, if a player leaves because their class is bad, then that is a money loss. If there was enough hours to code the changes initially, so they should be thought of through the whole PTS.

I mean, did you see the changes to wings and the testing, it was obvious both pre test and post test that the change was useless, since snares reappear every second, and it wouldn't be too taxing to just copy the immunity of FM, half it and slap it on wings.

jediprime74 · May 2018

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

jediprime74 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone,

We understand you're frustrated and disappointed there won't be any additional changes to class balance. No, really. That isn't a canned response - the frustration today has been noticed. While we did implement several changes to class balance in the first PTS patch, there's still more to be done. Unfortunately, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to do everything and we don't want to implement changes sloppily (which will introduce loads of risk to other abilities and systems). In these cases, we need to prioritize. As mentioned earlier this morning, the current priority is making sure the new item sets are balanced and fixing outstanding bugs, among a few other things.

It's worth noting we are still moving forward with the Class Representative Program mentioned a few weeks back, and are still in the process of narrowing down the nominations to a group of about 10-12 players. To give you some insight, we've gotten it down to about 30 players as of today. This program will help give us additional insight to the current class pain points and, if everything works as planned, open up the dialogue between everyone to give some more transparency which we know could use some improvement. We hope to have this spun up by time Summerset launches, so it will be soon.

As far as the PTS class feedback threads, these do prove to be useful to have everything centralized in a single thread. In the future, though, we're talking about limiting these threads to the updates where we plan to actively make changes to class abilities to better set expectations.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Would you be so kind as to give us an update on the issue of werewolf light attack damage? It received a 40% nerf, which was not indicated in any of the Patch Notes, and the thread dedicated to discussing that issue has received no response from any ZOS employee, so we are unsure if the issue is a bug or if it was intentional. If the former, it would be nice to see an acknowledgment and some idea of whether it is being fixed. If it is the latter, we would very much like for it to be included in Patch Notes along with an explanation of why the bread and butter damage mechanic for Werewolves is being nerfed to the point that most of those running WW builds will drop that skill line entirely.

Just replied to that thread, but we've seen it and are digging in to see what's going on.

You're the best, thanks Gina!

Joy_Division · May 2018

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone,

We understand you're frustrated and disappointed there won't be any additional changes to class balance. No, really. That isn't a canned response - the frustration today has been noticed. While we did implement several changes to class balance in the first PTS patch, there's still more to be done. Unfortunately, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to do everything and we don't want to implement changes sloppily (which will introduce loads of risk to other abilities and systems). In these cases, we need to prioritize. As mentioned earlier this morning, the current priority is making sure the new item sets are balanced and fixing outstanding bugs, among a few other things.

It's worth noting we are still moving forward with the Class Representative Program mentioned a few weeks back, and are still in the process of narrowing down the nominations to a group of about 10-12 players. To give you some insight, we've gotten it down to about 30 players as of today. This program will help give us additional insight to the current class pain points and, if everything works as planned, open up the dialogue between everyone to give some more transparency which we know could use some improvement. We hope to have this spun up by time Summerset launches, so it will be soon.

As far as the PTS class feedback threads, these do prove to be useful to have everything centralized in a single thread. In the future, though, we're talking about limiting these threads to the updates where we plan to actively make changes to class abilities to better set expectations.

The last thing I want are sloppy changes that aren't thought out or broken item/systems coming in an update in an effort to placate the masses.

I'm fine with the focus being on the new content, jewelry crafting, on the new skillline, and the new sets. I did not expect a major (or even minor) class balance changes regardless of what was written before.

It's not even about this update. For the past year, the combat changes have been focused on stuff that I can't say is very exciting for me: light attacks (Summerset), Off-balance and heavy attacks (I forget, Dragon bones or Clockwork City or both), and the big resource-sustain "adjustments" (Morrowind). While I am sure someone can write an essay of how these changes make for more tactical combat, I don't log on every night to play getting fired up knowing my light attack is going to do x% more damage or here's a 5 second window where the boss is immune and I can get a few more resources if I heavy attack (which I can't because the boss is invulnerable or there's some mechanic I have to avoid). I fell in love with this game before all that stuff was added. Every fantasy or RPG game I played that was any fun at all involved building a character that could do interesting and intellectual stimulating things that were outside the "normal" basic attack/defense routine (i.e. in this game light/heavy attacks and passive defense) and were things I have to devote choices we get from leveling up to do (i.e. character progression). We're getting a little of this in the psijic line, but that's the problem: we're only getting a little of this in something that's outside my class, available to everyone else, and it's not nearly enough to make up for all the nerfs and adjustments since Homestead.

Classes are important. They represent the core of the building blocks we use to create our hero and should receive priority over things like light attacks and off-balance mechanics. To me, it's not enough that my class can finish difficult content if in my mind I could have done better on something else. That's the problem that people who claim "the class can complete X, it's fine" does not understand. If the class *feels* weak while playing it, that's precisely the opposite of why I play these sorts of games. I don't want to feel weak. These games try to make you the hero who saves the world for a reason. We want THAT feeling.

If I mained a magicka warden, and I'm glad I don't, I'd be disappointed regardless if some people can post a respectable target dummy parse (using a specific setup with a bear). I don't play this game for target dummy parses. I want to be able to CC an opposing player and perhaps follow that up with a killing blow without the safety of a zerg to protect me. The past year's worth of changes have made it exceptionally more difficult to do just that so we're at probably the one the worst feeling people can have in playing an fantasy/RPG games: frustration playing the game because the character I want to play feels gimped, feels handicapped, feels weak, feels if they made the "wrong" choice.

Rohamad_Ali · May 2018

Really should of never touched class balance until you were ready for feedback and the time to adjust it properly for the new Chapter . People lose that Hype over these things . You hear people saying they dread Summerset instead of they can't wait . Hindsight .

MinarasLaure · May 2018

This is just ridiculous.
Keep wasting time in crown store/crates, at least you're good at it.
Once you're ready, for real this time, to work on class balances, open a single thread and collect all you need.
But in doing so, give as a bl**dy date, cause that's when people will start playing again.
Now, I'll go back dealing with my frustration on monster hunter world lol

DuskMarine · May 2018

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

jediprime74 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone,

We understand you're frustrated and disappointed there won't be any additional changes to class balance. No, really. That isn't a canned response - the frustration today has been noticed. While we did implement several changes to class balance in the first PTS patch, there's still more to be done. Unfortunately, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to do everything and we don't want to implement changes sloppily (which will introduce loads of risk to other abilities and systems). In these cases, we need to prioritize. As mentioned earlier this morning, the current priority is making sure the new item sets are balanced and fixing outstanding bugs, among a few other things.

It's worth noting we are still moving forward with the Class Representative Program mentioned a few weeks back, and are still in the process of narrowing down the nominations to a group of about 10-12 players. To give you some insight, we've gotten it down to about 30 players as of today. This program will help give us additional insight to the current class pain points and, if everything works as planned, open up the dialogue between everyone to give some more transparency which we know could use some improvement. We hope to have this spun up by time Summerset launches, so it will be soon.

As far as the PTS class feedback threads, these do prove to be useful to have everything centralized in a single thread. In the future, though, we're talking about limiting these threads to the updates where we plan to actively make changes to class abilities to better set expectations.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Would you be so kind as to give us an update on the issue of werewolf light attack damage? It received a 40% nerf, which was not indicated in any of the Patch Notes, and the thread dedicated to discussing that issue has received no response from any ZOS employee, so we are unsure if the issue is a bug or if it was intentional. If the former, it would be nice to see an acknowledgment and some idea of whether it is being fixed. If it is the latter, we would very much like for it to be included in Patch Notes along with an explanation of why the bread and butter damage mechanic for Werewolves is being nerfed to the point that most of those running WW builds will drop that skill line entirely.

Just replied to that thread, but we've seen it and are digging in to see what's going on.

hey gina i for one am happy with the current road the game is going as far as the story and stuff goes. me being one of the ones that knows how game development goes dont listen to these guys that are just raging about it dont let them derail the direction. i for one know that your main priority is going to come with alot of class balancing behind the scenes because one number can change in one area and totally mess up the other. balancing right now which alot of the others raging in this thread dont seem to get is it isnt its own single entity you balance one thing you gotta balance the other as well together i think when they mention CLASS BALANCING i think their looking for like super sized this is getting this nerf by x% or this is gonna go up in a buff by this X%. so just keep up what your doing there are a few of us who know what yall mean and what yall are going through and we enjoy every change this game has.

Kilandros · May 2018

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone,

We understand you're frustrated and disappointed there won't be any additional changes to class balance. No, really. That isn't a canned response - the frustration today has been noticed. While we did implement several changes to class balance in the first PTS patch, there's still more to be done. Unfortunately, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to do everything and we don't want to implement changes sloppily (which will introduce loads of risk to other abilities and systems). In these cases, we need to prioritize. As mentioned earlier this morning, the current priority is making sure the new item sets are balanced and fixing outstanding bugs, among a few other things.

It's worth noting we are still moving forward with the Class Representative Program mentioned a few weeks back, and are still in the process of narrowing down the nominations to a group of about 10-12 players. To give you some insight, we've gotten it down to about 30 players as of today. This program will help give us additional insight to the current class pain points and, if everything works as planned, open up the dialogue between everyone to give some more transparency which we know could use some improvement. We hope to have this spun up by time Summerset launches, so it will be soon.

As far as the PTS class feedback threads, these do prove to be useful to have everything centralized in a single thread. In the future, though, we're talking about limiting these threads to the updates where we plan to actively make changes to class abilities to better set expectations.

To be fair, every patch you guys peddle the same line that class-balance changes are coming with the next successive patch. I could go through the posts you've made, but I think you already know you've used that line pretty much every patch for the last couple of years.

Why should anyone believe that the Class Representative Program will be anymore successful than the hugely unsuccessful Monthly (now Quarterly? now finished? It's all very unclear) Combat Discussion program. Or why should anyone believe that the Class Representative Program will be anymore successful than the once quasi-informational Developer Insights included beneath patch notes that as of Summerset have withered up into banal commentary like, "We added a heal on this ability so that players now have access to an additional heal." (Thanks, it wasn't totally clear that an ability now had a healing component after reading that you added a healing component.)

If we're being absolutely honest, ZOS's follow-through with any of the formats designed to improve Developer-Player communication has been remarkably terrible. So why bother? It's clear you guys don't really care about player feedback. No, really, we're being honest: You don't actually care all that much. If you did, those failed programs would likely have been more successful. If you did, you wouldn't be threatening to limit class feedback threads in future update cycles (lol at that one btw - "we do care about feedback" and one paragraph later "we don't really want your feedback").

At a certain point you or your bosses need to accept that you're wasting more time than necessary trying to sell something your playerbase isn't buying anymore. Why not just try being honest, even if you think it isn't what we want to hear. It's clear your Development priorities aren't in step with the marketing line you're trying to tow. So just tell us how balancing is going to work from now on so we can all be on the same page for once.

IAVITNI · May 2018

Feanor wrote: »

We understand you're frustrated and disappointed there won't be any additional changes to class balance.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

To me it’s not about that there are still balancing issues that need to be addressed, it’s about the changes that have been done and that have been absolutely baffling. Even if you take the developer comments into account there isn’t a thorough design vision that I can perceive.

Some examples from the feedback threads:

- You take the stun off the Deep Fissure, the reason being a high damage ability shouldn’t provide a CC. While that’s reasonable, it’s also inconsistent because there are high damage abilities that provide a CC still in the game (Incapacitating Strike for example). Also magWarden has no class CC now.

- Rune Cage. You adjusted the damage of Crystal Fragments downwards twice because it was hitting too hard apparently and had a CC (which you removed), and then you go and add unblockable and unavoidable damage to the class hard CC. Why, oh why?

- Overload light attacks. Including these into the new damage power light attacks wield is a big mistake. Empowered Overload light attacks that you can force with Rune Cage shouldn’t be a thing.

- Incapacitating Strike. Still one of the most overloaded abilities in the game. Yet it remains untouched despite being a hard CC, having high damage, applying major defile, and boosting damage by 20% for six seconds (which is even stronger now because everyone else lost Empower on skills).

- Major Defile. No changes to it, and especially no changes to the befoul CP star. It remains one of the most accessible and strongest debuffs in the game (hello Durok‘s Bane). The feedback about it was totally ignored.

- New proc sets sporting Oblivion damage. I so hoped to never see a set again that provides oblivion damage. Yet here we are. I don’t understand why oblivion damage is not a pve exclusive mechanic.

There is many more, but the above would have been easy changes. And what’s so disturbing to me is that these things show a serious issue with the underlying game design vision. Or is it the intent to go back to unavoidable damage and players one shotting each other with close to no counterplay? I’d really love to know what the devs want this game to be, especially in PvP.

Thanks for your kind consideration.

This so much.

@ZOS_GinaBruno A pattern that I and many others have noticed is that bandaid solutions to unhealthy metas often evolve into the unhealthy meta themselves as they are rushed changes that target one extreme by implementing another.

We saw this with permablock changes that hurt PvE tanks more than it did PvP permablock builds.

We are currently seeing this with 100% Defile uptime, a debuff that was meant to counter extreme healing builds that now forces you to build into extreme healing in order to achieve decent healing.

With that in mind, the fact that class balance changes has been pushed back is a good sign imo, assuming that the team is trying to avoid repeating past mistakes. Recalculating block cost changes was a perfect example of how to (and how to not) address problems. Prior changes to block were all done with the mindset of "reducing effectiveness" when the final solution was with the mindset of "removing the problem". Obviously the Sturdy reductions and base Block cost increases were the easiest to implement, however these bandaid solutions have only proven to exasperate the problems until an actual fix is rolled out.

I would personally prefer to play in Patches with the same annoying meta than to have each Patch increasing known issues only for them to be resolved 4 Patches later.

TL;DR:
Holding off on class balance (and hopefully snare reworks) is better than offering a multitude of bandaid solutions that are more than likely to exasperate the issues at hand.

One subjective thing I'd like to add;

it's perfectly ok to undo past changes. Many of those changes were appropriate at the time, but the game does evolve by leaps and bounds, and what was once a progressive change becomes an outdated one.

Examples:
-Frag CC removal
-Spear Shards losing CC
-Battle Roar resource return change from % to flat numbers
-Strife Cost increase
-Deep Fissure CC removal

Diablo 3 forums were very similar to these. By the time they started really listening to player feedback and going back on previous changes, majority of their player base had left. The last D3 update I saw actually looked extremely promising and had pretty much implemented what the informed and objective player base had been suggesting for years. However, my opinion of that game had deteriorated so much due to band-aid solutions and unwillingness to revert outdated changes that I simply have not touched it since S7.

This is the only game I'm willing to shell out money past the initial purpose. All I ask is that you keep giving me a reason to take my money.

Baharoth77 · May 2018

So how about you drop the stun changes to Wardens until you are ready to properly address the class as a whole. I rarely post here but nerfing the class that's already under performing with no fixed in other areas severely pisses me off.

_Ahala_ · May 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone,

We understand you're frustrated and disappointed there won't be any additional changes to class balance. No, really. That isn't a canned response - the frustration today has been noticed. While we did implement several changes to class balance in the first PTS patch, there's still more to be done. Unfortunately, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to do everything and we don't want to implement changes sloppily (which will introduce loads of risk to other abilities and systems). In these cases, we need to prioritize. As mentioned earlier this morning, the current priority is making sure the new item sets are balanced and fixing outstanding bugs, among a few other things.

It's worth noting we are still moving forward with the Class Representative Program mentioned a few weeks back, and are still in the process of narrowing down the nominations to a group of about 10-12 players. To give you some insight, we've gotten it down to about 30 players as of today. This program will help give us additional insight to the current class pain points and, if everything works as planned, open up the dialogue between everyone to give some more transparency which we know could use some improvement. We hope to have this spun up by time Summerset launches, so it will be soon.

As far as the PTS class feedback threads, these do prove to be useful to have everything centralized in a single thread. In the future, though, we're talking about limiting these threads to the updates where we plan to actively make changes to class abilities to better set expectations.

The last thing I want are sloppy changes that aren't thought out or broken item/systems coming in an update in an effort to placate the masses.

I'm fine with the focus being on the new content, jewelry crafting, on the new skillline, and the new sets. I did not expect a major (or even minor) class balance changes regardless of what was written before.

It's not even about this update. For the past year, the combat changes have been focused on stuff that I can't say is very exciting for me: light attacks (Summerset), Off-balance and heavy attacks (I forget, Dragon bones or Clockwork City or both), and the big resource-sustain "adjustments" (Morrowind). While I am sure someone can write an essay of how these changes make for more tactical combat, I don't log on every night to play getting fired up knowing my light attack is going to do x% more damage or here's a 5 second window where the boss is immune and I can get a few more resources if I heavy attack (which I can't because the boss is invulnerable or there's some mechanic I have to avoid). I fell in love with this game before all that stuff was added. Every fantasy or RPG game I played that was any fun at all involved building a character that could do interesting and intellectual stimulating things that were outside the "normal" basic attack/defense routine (i.e. in this game light/heavy attacks and passive defense) and were things I have to devote choices we get from leveling up to do (i.e. character progression). We're getting a little of this in the psijic line, but that's the problem: we're only getting a little of this in something that's outside my class, available to everyone else, and it's not nearly enough to make up for all the nerfs and adjustments since Homestead.

Classes are important. They represent the core of the building blocks we use to create our hero and should receive priority over things like light attacks and off-balance mechanics. To me, it's not enough that my class can finish difficult content if in my mind I could have done better on something else. That's the problem that people who claim "the class can complete X, it's fine" does not understand. If the class *feels* weak while playing it, that's precisely the opposite of why I play these sorts of games. I don't want to feel weak. These games try to make you the hero who saves the world for a reason. We want THAT feeling.

If I mained a magicka warden, and I'm glad I don't, I'd be disappointed regardless if some people can post a respectable target dummy parse (using a specific setup with a bear). I don't play this game for target dummy parses. I want to be able to CC an opposing player and perhaps follow that up with a killing blow without the safety of a zerg to protect me. The past year's worth of changes have made it exceptionally more difficult to do just that so we're at probably the one the worst feeling people can have in playing an fantasy/RPG games: frustration playing the game because the character I want to play feels gimped, feels handicapped, feels weak, feels if they made the "wrong" choice.

As someone who has mained a magden for over 33 days /played time I would say that this is most definitely the case... the class has suffered greatly... I have to completely change builds and playstyles each patch to try and stay relevant... but it just gets worse and worse relative to other classes... Now together with Templar, Magden is receiving several harsh nerfs... the removal of the stun from fissure in exchange for mag penetration really hurts it’s playstyle. While it does increase the damage magdens have against non shielded opponents it exacerbates magdens current issues by making it even harder to secure kills in PvP because it takes away our undodgeable cc and forced us to slot flame reach which is dodgeable and reflectable or borrow time which is way too slow of a channel at 2s or vamp drain which will cause ferocious leap and dawn breaker of smiting to hit way too hard... Furthermore this change kills off the already weak ice mage builds because ice staff has no on demand hard ccs and stuns are absolutely necessary for pvp. Next the increased cliff racer speed causes the ability to be extraordinarily difficult to time with fissure... so that’s a double harsh nerf to a class that was already really bad in pvp and the buffs to natures grasp and icy gate are not even close to rectifying the balance problems this will bring... what magden needs for pvp most is an easier to use stun in exchange for the one lost from fissure, some sort of spammable or dot execute so our better opponents don’t stay relaxed at 15% health with dodge vigor, healing ward, or that rediculous shimmering shield, and a class root or snare or ability to allow us to kite a play at range like the secondary effect of screaming cliff racer suggests

TLDR: balance doesn’t mean nerfing weak classes into extinction... it means the exact opposite really, we need an execute and a stun... not more nerfs

booksmcread · May 2018

If they can't monitize it, it's not a priority. It doesn't even matter if it's the core mechanic of the player's experience.

zParallaxz · May 2018

Ley wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

To make sure that none of the changes that were made in Summerset or new skills that were added were game breaking. I feel like people have a misconception of what PTS is intended for.

Except they specifically mentioned class balance was being implemented in summerset.

and they made plenty of changes to all the classes, that was their class balancing attempt. We may not like all the changes but PTS was to test the changes they already made, not to make a bunch of new changes.

As always, they will continue to tweak things and make more changes in the future and players will continue to complain about any changes made. If they did take note of any of the feedback from this PTS, you probably won't see those changes until the next big update.

Daus wrote: »

They listen to our feedback, but that doesn't mean they have to implement it. If they implemented everything the community whined about Incap would heal its target, cloak would cause the user to spontaneously combust, dodge rolling would double the damage from undodgeable attacks (which btw all attacks would be undodgeable), and Oblivion damage would heal users with damage shields. Did I mention that all stam proc sets would be deleted, and only the magicka ones would remain?

Even though I don't agree with every change they make, I'm glad they don't balanced based on who QQs the most.

That’s the problem though, they show the pts as a place to voice your concerns. Why the countless threads about Dragonknight, nightblade, sorcerer, etc. if they aren’t going to actually implement any of the ideas within the current or even more truthful next and the next after that major update.

Jadokis · May 2018

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone,

We understand you're frustrated and disappointed there won't be any additional changes to class balance. No, really. That isn't a canned response - the frustration today has been noticed. While we did implement several changes to class balance in the first PTS patch, there's still more to be done. Unfortunately, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to do everything and we don't want to implement changes sloppily (which will introduce loads of risk to other abilities and systems). In these cases, we need to prioritize. As mentioned earlier this morning, the current priority is making sure the new item sets are balanced and fixing outstanding bugs, among a few other things.

It's worth noting we are still moving forward with the Class Representative Program mentioned a few weeks back, and are still in the process of narrowing down the nominations to a group of about 10-12 players. To give you some insight, we've gotten it down to about 30 players as of today. This program will help give us additional insight to the current class pain points and, if everything works as planned, open up the dialogue between everyone to give some more transparency which we know could use some improvement. We hope to have this spun up by time Summerset launches, so it will be soon.

As far as the PTS class feedback threads, these do prove to be useful to have everything centralized in a single thread. In the future, though, we're talking about limiting these threads to the updates where we plan to actively make changes to class abilities to better set expectations.

In what future updates does ZOS intend to have enough hours to dedicate to the community's main concern with the game? If not now, or if not even in a dungeon DLC with no new zones, quests, etc.. When can players expect their concerns to be heard and answered? Is it not possible to set one or maybe even two updates a year as updates where these issues get looked at? And in the future do not mention light/heavy attack balance being prioritized over ANYTHING.

zParallaxz · May 2018

Dreyloch wrote: »

Hutch679 wrote: »

Ley wrote: »

To make sure that none of the changes that were made in Summerset or new skills that were added were game breaking. I feel like people have a misconception of what PTS is intended for.

Except they specifically mentioned class balance was being implemented in summerset.

Can you link a thread regarding this? Was it posted by Wrobel himself? Is there actual proof the Dev team said this? Gina Doesn't count, she's community relations lol. What she says and what the Dev's actually do... can be totally different.

I also want to make sure if there was any mention, that it wasn't mistaken as "Balance changes this Summer" Not Summerset. It's still spring where I live. Saying this summer could mean up to August. I'm not defending ZoS here, I just want to be sure we're all not crazy, or mislead by reading things differently.

For the record dude, they have been saying that for the last three updates no joke. But a good majority of the community will keep drinking the kool-aid. I remember watching the eso live of clock work city dlc only to hear them say, we plan to work in combat balance within the next major update.

Ron_Burgundy_79 · May 2018

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone,

We understand you're frustrated and disappointed there won't be any additional changes to class balance. No, really. That isn't a canned response - the frustration today has been noticed. While we did implement several changes to class balance in the first PTS patch, there's still more to be done. Unfortunately, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to do everything and we don't want to implement changes sloppily (which will introduce loads of risk to other abilities and systems). In these cases, we need to prioritize. As mentioned earlier this morning, the current priority is making sure the new item sets are balanced and fixing outstanding bugs, among a few other things.

It's worth noting we are still moving forward with the Class Representative Program mentioned a few weeks back, and are still in the process of narrowing down the nominations to a group of about 10-12 players. To give you some insight, we've gotten it down to about 30 players as of today. This program will help give us additional insight to the current class pain points and, if everything works as planned, open up the dialogue between everyone to give some more transparency which we know could use some improvement. We hope to have this spun up by time Summerset launches, so it will be soon.

As far as the PTS class feedback threads, these do prove to be useful to have everything centralized in a single thread. In the future, though, we're talking about limiting these threads to the updates where we plan to actively make changes to class abilities to better set expectations.

The dev team shouldn't implement class changes during the first week of the PTS stating that more balance changes are on the way. Then follow up 3 weeks later essentially stating that class balancing isn't coming this patch (again).

If the frustration was truly noticed, some of these changes won't make it to the live server. Looking specifically at the deep fissure NERF.

zParallaxz · May 2018

casparian wrote: »

Thanks for the dialogue, Gina.

I guess the main disconnect here is that players' priorities and devs' priorities are in very different places. Of course there aren't enough hours in a day to create a new crafting system, quest content, and skill line while also revamping all five classes. We get that. Which is why we're frustrated that the devs, patch after patch, keep devoting their (understandably limited) time and energy to making new stuff instead of fixing our classes. "We didn't have enough time" misses the point -- to a lot of us, that sounds like a reason to not put out new content, not a reason to neglect existing content.

I understand that fixing existing issues is much harder to monetize than pumping out a new land to explore, but at some point in order to retain players you're going to need to make us feel like the time we're putting into the classes we play is time well spent.

Kilandros wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone,

We understand you're frustrated and disappointed there won't be any additional changes to class balance. No, really. That isn't a canned response - the frustration today has been noticed. While we did implement several changes to class balance in the first PTS patch, there's still more to be done. Unfortunately, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to do everything and we don't want to implement changes sloppily (which will introduce loads of risk to other abilities and systems). In these cases, we need to prioritize. As mentioned earlier this morning, the current priority is making sure the new item sets are balanced and fixing outstanding bugs, among a few other things.

It's worth noting we are still moving forward with the Class Representative Program mentioned a few weeks back, and are still in the process of narrowing down the nominations to a group of about 10-12 players. To give you some insight, we've gotten it down to about 30 players as of today. This program will help give us additional insight to the current class pain points and, if everything works as planned, open up the dialogue between everyone to give some more transparency which we know could use some improvement. We hope to have this spun up by time Summerset launches, so it will be soon.

As far as the PTS class feedback threads, these do prove to be useful to have everything centralized in a single thread. In the future, though, we're talking about limiting these threads to the updates where we plan to actively make changes to class abilities to better set expectations.

To be fair, every patch you guys peddle the same line that class-balance changes are coming with the next successive patch. I could go through the posts you've made, but I think you already know you've used that line pretty much every patch for the last couple of years.

Why should anyone believe that the Class Representative Program will be anymore successful than the hugely unsuccessful Monthly (now Quarterly? now finished? It's all very unclear) Combat Discussion program. Or why should anyone believe that the Class Representative Program will be anymore successful than the once quasi-informational Developer Insights included beneath patch notes that as of Summerset have withered up into banal commentary like, "We added a heal on this ability so that players now have access to an additional heal." (Thanks, it wasn't totally clear that an ability now had a healing component after reading that you added a healing component.)

If we're being absolutely honest, ZOS's follow-through with any of the formats designed to improve Developer-Player communication has been remarkably terrible. So why bother? It's clear you guys don't really care about player feedback. No, really, we're being honest: You don't actually care all that much. If you did, those failed programs would likely have been more successful. If you did, you wouldn't be threatening to limit class feedback threads in future update cycles (lol at that one btw - "we do care about feedback" and one paragraph later "we don't really want your feedback").

At a certain point you or your bosses need to accept that you're wasting more time than necessary trying to sell something your playerbase isn't buying anymore. Why not just try being honest, even if you think it isn't what we want to hear. It's clear your Development priorities aren't in step with the marketing line you're trying to tow. So just tell us how balancing is going to work from now on so we can all be on the same page for once.

AMEN BROTHER

LeHarrt91 · May 2018

_Ahala_ wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone,

We understand you're frustrated and disappointed there won't be any additional changes to class balance. No, really. That isn't a canned response - the frustration today has been noticed. While we did implement several changes to class balance in the first PTS patch, there's still more to be done. Unfortunately, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to do everything and we don't want to implement changes sloppily (which will introduce loads of risk to other abilities and systems). In these cases, we need to prioritize. As mentioned earlier this morning, the current priority is making sure the new item sets are balanced and fixing outstanding bugs, among a few other things.

It's worth noting we are still moving forward with the Class Representative Program mentioned a few weeks back, and are still in the process of narrowing down the nominations to a group of about 10-12 players. To give you some insight, we've gotten it down to about 30 players as of today. This program will help give us additional insight to the current class pain points and, if everything works as planned, open up the dialogue between everyone to give some more transparency which we know could use some improvement. We hope to have this spun up by time Summerset launches, so it will be soon.

As far as the PTS class feedback threads, these do prove to be useful to have everything centralized in a single thread. In the future, though, we're talking about limiting these threads to the updates where we plan to actively make changes to class abilities to better set expectations.

The last thing I want are sloppy changes that aren't thought out or broken item/systems coming in an update in an effort to placate the masses.

I'm fine with the focus being on the new content, jewelry crafting, on the new skillline, and the new sets. I did not expect a major (or even minor) class balance changes regardless of what was written before.

It's not even about this update. For the past year, the combat changes have been focused on stuff that I can't say is very exciting for me: light attacks (Summerset), Off-balance and heavy attacks (I forget, Dragon bones or Clockwork City or both), and the big resource-sustain "adjustments" (Morrowind). While I am sure someone can write an essay of how these changes make for more tactical combat, I don't log on every night to play getting fired up knowing my light attack is going to do x% more damage or here's a 5 second window where the boss is immune and I can get a few more resources if I heavy attack (which I can't because the boss is invulnerable or there's some mechanic I have to avoid). I fell in love with this game before all that stuff was added. Every fantasy or RPG game I played that was any fun at all involved building a character that could do interesting and intellectual stimulating things that were outside the "normal" basic attack/defense routine (i.e. in this game light/heavy attacks and passive defense) and were things I have to devote choices we get from leveling up to do (i.e. character progression). We're getting a little of this in the psijic line, but that's the problem: we're only getting a little of this in something that's outside my class, available to everyone else, and it's not nearly enough to make up for all the nerfs and adjustments since Homestead.

Classes are important. They represent the core of the building blocks we use to create our hero and should receive priority over things like light attacks and off-balance mechanics. To me, it's not enough that my class can finish difficult content if in my mind I could have done better on something else. That's the problem that people who claim "the class can complete X, it's fine" does not understand. If the class *feels* weak while playing it, that's precisely the opposite of why I play these sorts of games. I don't want to feel weak. These games try to make you the hero who saves the world for a reason. We want THAT feeling.

If I mained a magicka warden, and I'm glad I don't, I'd be disappointed regardless if some people can post a respectable target dummy parse (using a specific setup with a bear). I don't play this game for target dummy parses. I want to be able to CC an opposing player and perhaps follow that up with a killing blow without the safety of a zerg to protect me. The past year's worth of changes have made it exceptionally more difficult to do just that so we're at probably the one the worst feeling people can have in playing an fantasy/RPG games: frustration playing the game because the character I want to play feels gimped, feels handicapped, feels weak, feels if they made the "wrong" choice.

As someone who has mained a magden for over 33 days /played time I would say that this is most definitely the case... the class has suffered greatly... I have to completely change builds and playstyles each patch to try and stay relevant... but it just gets worse and worse relative to other classes... Now together with Templar, Magden is receiving several harsh nerfs... the removal of the stun from fissure in exchange for mag penetration really hurts it’s playstyle. While it does increase the damage magdens have against non shielded opponents it exacerbates magdens current issues by making it even harder to secure kills in PvP because it takes away our undodgeable cc and forced us to slot flame reach which is dodgeable and reflectable or borrow time which is way too slow of a channel at 2s or vamp drain which will cause ferocious leap and dawn breaker of smiting to hit way too hard... Furthermore this change kills off the already weak ice mage builds because ice staff has no on demand hard ccs and stuns are absolutely necessary for pvp. Next the increased cliff racer speed causes the ability to be extraordinarily difficult to time with fissure... so that’s a double harsh nerf to a class that was already really bad in pvp and the buffs to natures grasp and icy gate are not even close to rectifying the balance problems this will bring... what magden needs for pvp most is an easier to use stun in exchange for the one lost from fissure, some sort of spammable or dot execute so our better opponents don’t stay relaxed at 15% health with dodge vigor, healing ward, or that rediculous shimmering shield, and a class root or snare or ability to allow us to kite a play at range like the secondary effect of screaming cliff racer suggests

TLDR: balance doesn’t mean nerfing weak classes into extinction... it means the exact opposite really, we need an execute and a stun... not more nerfs

Unfortunately the bear does both execute and stun (its heavy attack). Though these are both less than ideal as they are on the bear, which needs to be double barred, and can be hard to control/ does to often.

In a way i understand the Deep Fissure change as they did the same to Sorc Frags, but.. they have accessible stuns elsewhere in the class trees and the warden only has its 200 cost Ultimate Permafrost, or the bears heavy attack or whatever which cannot be controlled.

I did find out the other day that Winters Revenge stunned Welwa in Craglorn... but i guess thats an element their weak to, which is also being removed with Summerset.