What is the point of PTS class feedback?

anitajoneb17_ESO

templesus wrote: »

ESO will continue to do it, and has done it. Guaranteed.

Except ESO hasn't done it, and will continue not doing it.
When does ESO release new "endgame" content aimed at non-casual players ? 2 (to 4) new dungeons A YEAR, a couple of new PvP environments, and one or two trials (most of which are shortened, "mini-trials"). Nothing significant is ever added to Cyrodiil.
Close to nothing when compared to one chapter + one DLC zone + one big system update per year such as housing or outfits. All aimed at casual players, all "below easy" and all extremely successful.
Your reasoning isn't based on facts, sorry.

Feanor

@anitajoneb17_ESO

I’ll take your argument that the DLC dungeons and the trials after MoL are aimed at casual players to the next QQ discussion that the content is too hard and impossible to PuG.

But seriously, of course ZOS is making the game easier and easier. There is no denying it. Doesn’t mean though that it’s good to neglect your better players totally.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Feanor wrote: »

I’ll take your argument that the DLC dungeons and the trials after MoL are aimed at casual players to the next QQ discussion that the content is too hard and impossible to PuG.

I did not write that. Read again : new end-game content aimed at NON-casual players.

Feanor wrote: »

But seriously, of course ZOS is making the game easier and easier. There is no denying it. Doesn’t mean though that it’s good to neglect your better players totally.

I was just answering to someone who pretends that hardcore endgame content is what keeps games alive because it's the only thing that sells.
I'm not saying it shouldn't exist at all, I'm fine with what ZOS provides so far. I'd be frustrated if I was a pure PvPer though, but luckily I'm not.

DoctorESO

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

go to school for programming and youll sit there and realize how hard doing that actually is.

No, balance is basic math. Easy stuff.

You have NO idea...

If only it were that simple.

Mystrius_Archaion

schattenkind wrote: »

This "artificial complexity" is what makes this game interesting, else we all would play one class and have all the same skills. Each class shall have something the others do not.

Then why don't we just have each class be only a tank or only a healer or only dps and require grouping? They can't all have tank skills or healing skills or dps skills since they all have to be unique snowflakes(FYI, proven to not be unique).
That is what you just asked for if you really thought about it, and it would suck because it has been done and sucked in other games.

Seriously, every last ability in this game is just a visual different and a numbers tweak from a base equation of "health number minus health number over time" aka "(health - health) / time".
The only unique skills are utility ones that everybody gets in some form but some more powerful than others, like cloak's invisible. And I'm hard-pressed to find any other ability than cloak that is truly unique and impossible to compare to another ability.

How the hell do you think we have the same quests and same "empty the enemy healthbar" gameplay that we've had in MMOs and RPG games for decades now? It's all the same crap just with better graphics.

Mystrius_Archaion

DoctorESO wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

go to school for programming and youll sit there and realize how hard doing that actually is.

No, balance is basic math. Easy stuff.

You have NO idea...

If only it were that simple.

1 = 1
2 = 2
X + Y = Z + W
That is balance.

Sorcerer = Nightblade = Templar = Warden = Dragonknight

There are underlying equations to everything, and us players have helped the developers by simplifying it all down to a single number, for most parts of the game, that we call "damage per second".

So yes, the math of balance is easy. The coding of it all to show us from "1s and 0s" to looking like magical fiery effects is the complicated part.
We're essentially just playing Dungeons And Dragons make believe text based games with visuals that somebody added for us because of our lack of vivid imaginations.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

There are underlying equations to everything, and us players have helped the developers by simplifying it all down to a single number, for most parts of the game, that we call "damage per second".

It would probably be that easy if ESO combat was reduced to "DPS". But it's not the only aspect, by far. There's also the incoming DPS and how much you can survive/dodge/avoid/mitigate/absorb/block, etc... , the various forms in which damage is dealt or received (over time, direct, area, reflected, etc..), the various ranges, cooldowns, and the entire resource management issue.
It's definitely not easy. Not at all.

schattenkind

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

schattenkind wrote: »

This "artificial complexity" is what makes this game interesting, else we all would play one class and have all the same skills. Each class shall have something the others do not.

Then why don't we just have each class be only a tank or only a healer or only dps and require grouping? They can't all have tank skills or healing skills or dps skills since they all have to be unique snowflakes(FYI, proven to not be unique).
That is what you just asked for if you really thought about it, and it would suck because it has been done and sucked in other games.

Seriously, every last ability in this game is just a visual different and a numbers tweak from a base equation of "health number minus health number over time" aka "(health - health) / time".
The only unique skills are utility ones that everybody gets in some form but some more powerful than others, like cloak's invisible. And I'm hard-pressed to find any other ability than cloak that is truly unique and impossible to compare to another ability.

How the hell do you think we have the same quests and same "empty the enemy healthbar" gameplay that we've had in MMOs and RPG games for decades now? It's all the same crap just with better graphics.

lol...
Sorry, but I'm not even replying to this...

Joy_Division

@anitajoneb17_ESO

"Balance" is more than just a discrepancy between the classes. Player vs. NPCs have to be balanced correctly. There has to be some sort of balance between players who are maxed level and players who are new. Because the game has no CP modes, ZoS has to correctly maintain balanced mechanics that work in both environments. Because the game uses the same skill mechanics in PvP and PvE, the abilities we use to to be balanced in both formats.

And even if we are just referring to classes, just because a class can complete content without conspicuous discrepancy and "play the game" as you say, it does not follow the said class is fun to play, doesn't have debilitating flaws in it, or doesn't have things in it that are in need of reform. The Repentance skill just causes arguments between players in the same group and should have never even made it to the PTS. And while Magplars on the whole are mid-tier and not much discrepancy power wise, its actual performance is something that definitely should be reformed as it is bad at PvE DPS, awesome at healing, outclassed as PvE tank, great at PvP groups, throw your computer out the window frustrating at PvP solo.

The biggest powergap out the is CP grind (lol it does not take 10 hours to level a max toon. A newish (or returning) player has got a long long long road ahead of them. Even a max toon, 10 hours is stacking every possible XP buff out there) and gear-sets like Earth-Gore and the to be jewelry crafting (behind paywall, requires a way to huge grind for mats). You think with new sets like the Sload'e Embrace (free Oblivion damage that can not be blocked, shielded, or cloaked) that "competence as players matters more than their gear"? Do you pay attention when PvPing? Did you even step into cyrodiil or Battlegrounds when ever stam player used Viper/Velidreth/Red Mountain? If the classes did not have much discrepancy, it was most certainly not because the classes were somehow balanced with respect to each other, it was because much of their power came from gear (and CP), which is most certainly not what I want at all.

ZOS has totally dropped the ball here and I'm going to call them out.

Anhedonie

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone,

We understand you're frustrated and disappointed there won't be any additional changes to class balance. No, really. That isn't a canned response - the frustration today has been noticed. While we did implement several changes to class balance in the first PTS patch, there's still more to be done. Unfortunately, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to do everything and we don't want to implement changes sloppily (which will introduce loads of risk to other abilities and systems). In these cases, we need to prioritize. As mentioned earlier this morning, the current priority is making sure the new item sets are balanced and fixing outstanding bugs, among a few other things.

It's worth noting we are still moving forward with the Class Representative Program mentioned a few weeks back, and are still in the process of narrowing down the nominations to a group of about 10-12 players. To give you some insight, we've gotten it down to about 30 players as of today. This program will help give us additional insight to the current class pain points and, if everything works as planned, open up the dialogue between everyone to give some more transparency which we know could use some improvement. We hope to have this spun up by time Summerset launches, so it will be soon.

As far as the PTS class feedback threads, these do prove to be useful to have everything centralized in a single thread. In the future, though, we're talking about limiting these threads to the updates where we plan to actively make changes to class abilities to better set expectations.

And I will prioritise other places where I spend money over your game then. Thanks for not fixing any warden issues has in pve.

Mihael

Anhedonie wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone,

We understand you're frustrated and disappointed there won't be any additional changes to class balance. No, really. That isn't a canned response - the frustration today has been noticed. While we did implement several changes to class balance in the first PTS patch, there's still more to be done. Unfortunately, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to do everything and we don't want to implement changes sloppily (which will introduce loads of risk to other abilities and systems). In these cases, we need to prioritize. As mentioned earlier this morning, the current priority is making sure the new item sets are balanced and fixing outstanding bugs, among a few other things.

It's worth noting we are still moving forward with the Class Representative Program mentioned a few weeks back, and are still in the process of narrowing down the nominations to a group of about 10-12 players. To give you some insight, we've gotten it down to about 30 players as of today. This program will help give us additional insight to the current class pain points and, if everything works as planned, open up the dialogue between everyone to give some more transparency which we know could use some improvement. We hope to have this spun up by time Summerset launches, so it will be soon.

As far as the PTS class feedback threads, these do prove to be useful to have everything centralized in a single thread. In the future, though, we're talking about limiting these threads to the updates where we plan to actively make changes to class abilities to better set expectations.

And I will prioritise other places where I spend money over your game then. Thanks for not fixing any warden issues has in pve.

This wouldn’t be that bad if they made revelant changes in between major patches but they don’t so we will have to wait 3-6 months for anything relevant to happen

templesus

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

ESO will continue to do it, and has done it. Guaranteed.

Except ESO hasn't done it, and will continue not doing it.
When does ESO release new "endgame" content aimed at non-casual players ? 2 (to 4) new dungeons A YEAR, a couple of new PvP environments, and one or two trials (most of which are shortened, "mini-trials"). Nothing significant is ever added to Cyrodiil.
Close to nothing when compared to one chapter + one DLC zone + one big system update per year such as housing or outfits. All aimed at casual players, all "below easy" and all extremely successful.
Your reasoning isn't based on facts, sorry.

You literally just listed out the endgame content for casuals? I’m starting to think your blind ignorance is making it difficult for you to see logic and reason, so i will make it simpler for you and list some out. Do you remember when VMOL was released, and normal mode alone wasn’t even able to be completed? Since then, every trial released has been able to be completed on day 1, including normal modes for casuals.
Remember when WGT and ICP was only able to be completed by the top tier players, ICP wasn’t even completed day 1? Since then all dungeons have been dumbed down to be completed day 1,
And those dungeons were made easier to be completed as well by casuals.
Remember when Monster Sets were RNG based and not even a guaranteed drop, they made them a guaranteed drop, not even from hard mode, so that casuals could attain them(did this in contingency with making said dungeons easier).
So, the FACT remains (since you are so quick to say my logic isn’t based on facts because you yourself have no idea what you’re talking about ~ https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/personal-incredulity) ZOS has already dumbed down end-game content for casuals in the past and will continue to do it in the future.
I’m at the point of closing off further discussion with you because your entitled ignorance as a player in coherence with your BLATANT use of logical fallacies is leading you to cherrypick one or two words people say and try to refute that whilst ignoring the rest of what they say.
If this were an actual debate, with words, where you have no choice but to respond to everything being said, you’d have been escorted out the door already. Goodbye.

Kilandros

To be fair I guess, at this point in ESO's life the hardcore end-game community is essentially dead while the casual playerbase (i.e., the one that doesn't really care about class balance) is still going strongish.

The Developers know that there are only 3-4 true hardcore PvP guilds left on PC NA and even fewer hardcore raid guilds. From what I understand there's basically zero competition between PvE guilds (compared to other games that are 5+ years old and still have extremely competitive end-game raiding environments). Competition in PvP is dead despite the best efforts from a few people to get organized GvGs going.

ZOS probably knows that the CU beta this summer will result in another massive diaspora of end-game players like we saw with Morrowind. So at this point in the game's life cycle they're on low-effort maintenance mode (i.e., no major class rebalances, no major gameplay additions like spellcrafting) while they ratchet up more casual content like single-player quests, grindy skill lines, etc.

Feanor

@Kilandros

Unfortunately I think that’s a very precise picture.

Derra

Kilandros wrote: »

ZOS probably knows that the CU beta this summer will result in another massive diaspora of end-game players like we saw with Morrowind. So at this point in the game's life cycle they're on low-effort maintenance mode (i.e., no major class rebalances, no major gameplay additions like spellcrafting) while they ratchet up more casual content like single-player quests, grindy skill lines, etc.

Unfortunately i think it´s just the other way around.

They just now start caring about pvp because CU and Crowfall betas are around soonish. These games are still far from release which gives eso devs a comfortable timeframe 1+++ year to get their pvp on a semicompetetive level to those games.

My gutfeeling is we´ll start to see a lot more changes regarding pvp (like we started with summerset new rewards, battlegrounds basegame, new quests, new keep tick system)...

Lucky28

@Kilandros true. i dunno i was just hoping they'd try to revitalize their player base but it seems they're just giving up.

SGT_Wolfe101st

ZOS_JesC wrote: »

Greetings, we've removed comments for baiting and personal insults. Please keep comments constructive and on topic. We understand members won't always agree on a topic, however conversation should remain civil. Thank you for your understanding.

Once again, "Play nice..." Not a single response to the question or frustration of the OP. Maybe for just a second if you ever kept one promise the anger and hostility on the forums might come down a notch. The forums are a reflection of the frustration you as a developer have put on the player base with pointless nerfs, broken promises, shady pricing strategies, etc., etc., etc.

SGT_Wolfe101st

templesus wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone,

We understand you're frustrated and disappointed there won't be any additional changes to class balance. No, really. That isn't a canned response - the frustration today has been noticed. While we did implement several changes to class balance in the first PTS patch, there's still more to be done. Unfortunately, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to do everything and we don't want to implement changes sloppily (which will introduce loads of risk to other abilities and systems). In these cases, we need to prioritize. As mentioned earlier this morning, the current priority is making sure the new item sets are balanced and fixing outstanding bugs, among a few other things.

It's worth noting we are still moving forward with the Class Representative Program mentioned a few weeks back, and are still in the process of narrowing down the nominations to a group of about 10-12 players. To give you some insight, we've gotten it down to about 30 players as of today. This program will help give us additional insight to the current class pain points and, if everything works as planned, open up the dialogue between everyone to give some more transparency which we know could use some improvement. We hope to have this spun up by time Summerset launches, so it will be soon.

As far as the PTS class feedback threads, these do prove to be useful to have everything centralized in a single thread. In the future, though, we're talking about limiting these threads to the updates where we plan to actively make changes to class abilities to better set expectations.

To sum it up; Your priority is everything you’ve implemented that is going to be behind a pay wall, rather then the core balance of the game you have been promising for months now, correct?

Duly noted.

BOOOM DROP THE M***** ******G MIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TheBonesXXX

Waffennacht wrote: »

I'm at the point of

"Where the @#_& do you get your balancing from?"

Clearly it's not the PTS nor player base. It's always as if something snuck up on them.

Where, where did you get the idea to Remove the Stun from Deep Fissure but add damage to Rune Cage?

Seriously, who thought of this? Wasn't us

I doubt it's just one guy (wrobel) it's gotta be a group effort.

Did someone actually say these ideas out loud and the rest of you go, "Yes!"?

Seems...so... uninformed decision making

We're getting content thats was left out of the base game still in order for it to be monetized because some dinky fatcat wants their $$.

Im just not surprised.

Lucky28

Derra wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

ZOS probably knows that the CU beta this summer will result in another massive diaspora of end-game players like we saw with Morrowind. So at this point in the game's life cycle they're on low-effort maintenance mode (i.e., no major class rebalances, no major gameplay additions like spellcrafting) while they ratchet up more casual content like single-player quests, grindy skill lines, etc.

Unfortunately i think it´s just the other way around.

They just now start caring about pvp because CU and Crowfall betas are around soonish. These games are still far from release which gives eso devs a comfortable timeframe 1+++ year to get their pvp on a semicompetetive level to those games.

My gutfeeling is we´ll start to see a lot more changes regarding pvp (like we started with summerset new rewards, battlegrounds basegame, new quests, new keep tick system)...

and they're going to do that by poorly balancing classes once every 6 months while not listening to feedback on said changes?. not likely.

honestly it doesn't matter what content they add, they've done so much harm to competitive gameplay that's it's...... done. really the only way they could save the game is by rolling back to One tamriel and starting over from there balance wise.

waitwhat

Feedback does find its way into the game, there's just about a six month delay between when momentum starts to build and when the changes are realized.

People were calling for magplar nerfs hard November 2016. Fast forward to Morrowind: Magplar apocalypse.
Sorcs have been trashed around for almost as long as I can remember, but it got really bad in Spring 2017 after Homestead. Morrowind gave us the rise of the magblade, which really took off with CWC and the perfected stave, and the final nail in the coffin came with the off balance changes.

Que complaints about magblades ramping up with Dragon Bones, and now in June we've got a minor nerf to strife and more updates/nerfs headed their way I'd wager with the next DLC.

Sometimes good things happen too. Being a stamblade in PvE after OT was like living in a Charles Dickens novel, but the complaints about the lack of group utility and survivability were heard, and with Morrowind we got War Machine and a buff to blade cloak.

It just takes a lot of time and momentum.

PROTIP: Look at it as ZOS trying not to do what they did with Morrowind and introduce massive, sweeping changes to every class in one update. The meta will be upended enough with jewelry crafting, 2-handers counting for two pieces, and light attack scaling with max resource. They're being cautious this time.

Fellow nightblades, we need to be open to downscaling and adjustments. We have to be a part of the conversation about balance or we'll be left out in the cold when the time comes for us to get ours.

Razorback174

waitwhat wrote: »

PROTIP: Look at it as ZOS trying not to do what they did with Morrowind and introduce massive, sweeping changes to every class in one update. The meta will be upended enough with jewelry crafting, 2-handers counting for two pieces, and light attack scaling with max resource. They're being cautious this time.

They could have fooled me when they took the biggest dump on magwardens this patch. It's like they're attempting to mend a broken leg with a sledgehammer. There has been no point in playing magwarden for almost a year now, and this update just further sets that wonderful mindset in stone.

And this is a new class WE PAID EXTRA JUST TO PLAY!

TheBonesXXX

ZOS_JesC wrote: »

Greetings, we've removed comments for baiting and personal insults. Please keep comments constructive and on topic. We understand members won't always agree on a topic, however conversation should remain civil. Thank you for your understanding.

Civility is appropriate when its appropriate,

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone,

We understand you're frustrated and disappointed there won't be any additional changes to class balance. No, really. That isn't a canned response - the frustration today has been noticed. While we did implement several changes to class balance in the first PTS patch, there's still more to be done. Unfortunately, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to do everything and we don't want to implement changes sloppily (which will introduce loads of risk to other abilities and systems). In these cases, we need to prioritize. As mentioned earlier this morning, the current priority is making sure the new item sets are balanced and fixing outstanding bugs, among a few other things.

It's worth noting we are still moving forward with the Class Representative Program mentioned a few weeks back, and are still in the process of narrowing down the nominations to a group of about 10-12 players. To give you some insight, we've gotten it down to about 30 players as of today. This program will help give us additional insight to the current class pain points and, if everything works as planned, open up the dialogue between everyone to give some more transparency which we know could use some improvement. We hope to have this spun up by time Summerset launches, so it will be soon.

As far as the PTS class feedback threads, these do prove to be useful to have everything centralized in a single thread. In the future, though, we're talking about limiting these threads to the updates where we plan to actively make changes to class abilities to better set expectations.

Then allow one of us to point out the blatant flaws in the companies priorities. You (ZOS) have yet to fix bugs and balancing in the base game, instead you decided to introduce new layers of flaws in bugs via new content. Release a patch where you fix current flaws and bugs before you decide to create new ones.

Mostly Harmless, Deltia, Sypher, King Richard, Fengrush; this representative thing did not work before; you're just spinning your wheels calling an old trick a new name. Let me give you an example, dynamic ultimate generation was broken in the first year of this game, then you turn around and you give a class Major Heroism. you do not need to have representatives to see how this will be an issue. Do you not see reoccurring pattern with your mistakes? You have been given more than ample enough feedback and time from the players in order to get these problems fixed.

Heres another example of a cyclic and circular mistake Zenimax, you had Expert Hunter ; a proc; nerfed it then put procs in the form of sets, only to turn around and nerf them.. only to put more procs back in the game. It's not flavor anymore, it's a pattern of mistakes; it's called foolish.

But it's not really foolish, we the players are the fools; and Zenimax is filled with liars. We keep paying money to be lied to, you have not fixed anything you were supposed to fix for the last four years, seriously, it does not take four years to fix the lag in Cyrodiil.

Really, why even generate a response when there are NO improvements to show for it.

Dedricus

DoctorESO

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

There are underlying equations to everything, and us players have helped the developers by simplifying it all down to a single number, for most parts of the game, that we call "damage per second".

It would probably be that easy if ESO combat was reduced to "DPS". But it's not the only aspect, by far. There's also the incoming DPS and how much you can survive/dodge/avoid/mitigate/absorb/block, etc... , the various forms in which damage is dealt or received (over time, direct, area, reflected, etc..), the various ranges, cooldowns, and the entire resource management issue.
It's definitely not easy. Not at all.

IZZEFlameLash

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

There are underlying equations to everything, and us players have helped the developers by simplifying it all down to a single number, for most parts of the game, that we call "damage per second".

It would probably be that easy if ESO combat was reduced to "DPS". But it's not the only aspect, by far. There's also the incoming DPS and how much you can survive/dodge/avoid/mitigate/absorb/block, etc... , the various forms in which damage is dealt or received (over time, direct, area, reflected, etc..), the various ranges, cooldowns, and the entire resource management issue.
It's definitely not easy. Not at all.

Except... ESO combat is all about DPS if you have not noticed. If you think you can compete in endgame pve and pvp with below 2k buffed spell damage and 3k buffed weapon damage, or 25k parse, you are gravely mistaken. Those are bare minimum. Really bare. And look what sets they add. Mostly DPS aids.

anitajoneb17_ESO

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

There are underlying equations to everything, and us players have helped the developers by simplifying it all down to a single number, for most parts of the game, that we call "damage per second".

It would probably be that easy if ESO combat was reduced to "DPS". But it's not the only aspect, by far. There's also the incoming DPS and how much you can survive/dodge/avoid/mitigate/absorb/block, etc... , the various forms in which damage is dealt or received (over time, direct, area, reflected, etc..), the various ranges, cooldowns, and the entire resource management issue.
It's definitely not easy. Not at all.

Except... ESO combat is all about DPS if you have not noticed. If you think you can compete in endgame pve and pvp with below 2k buffed spell damage and 3k buffed weapon damage, or 25k parse, you are gravely mistaken. Those are bare minimum. Really bare. And look what sets they add. Mostly DPS aids.

Except a dead Damage Dealer doesn't deal any damage at all. As a result, tank abilities and performances (to avoid DDs taking damage) and healer abilities and performances (to compensate for damage taken, and for buffs and resource management support) are just as crucial to an overall group's output than any DPS class' raw output. That's all part of the equation and it's hard to "balance".

IZZEFlameLash

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

There are underlying equations to everything, and us players have helped the developers by simplifying it all down to a single number, for most parts of the game, that we call "damage per second".

It would probably be that easy if ESO combat was reduced to "DPS". But it's not the only aspect, by far. There's also the incoming DPS and how much you can survive/dodge/avoid/mitigate/absorb/block, etc... , the various forms in which damage is dealt or received (over time, direct, area, reflected, etc..), the various ranges, cooldowns, and the entire resource management issue.
It's definitely not easy. Not at all.

Except... ESO combat is all about DPS if you have not noticed. If you think you can compete in endgame pve and pvp with below 2k buffed spell damage and 3k buffed weapon damage, or 25k parse, you are gravely mistaken. Those are bare minimum. Really bare. And look what sets they add. Mostly DPS aids.

Except a dead Damage Dealer doesn't deal any damage at all. As a result, tank abilities and performances (to avoid DDs taking damage) and healer abilities and performances (to compensate for damage taken, and for buffs and resource management support) are just as crucial to an overall group's output than any DPS class' raw output. That's all part of the equation and it's hard to "balance".

Say what you want, but almost all games out there are dps oriented. Therefore, you see more dps nerfs than any other nerfs in any games. Easiest to adjust. I will say no more because I don't want to derail the thread with this. As it is as pointless as class feedbacks.

anitajoneb17_ESO

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Say what you want, but almost all games out there are dps oriented. Therefore, you see more dps nerfs than any other nerfs in any games. Easiest to adjust. I will say no more because I don't want to derail the thread with this. As it is as pointless as class feedbacks.

Why mention"all games out there" when we're talking about ESO ?
And I did not say that DPS doesn't matter. I say that all roles and all non-DPS abilities also contribute to DPS. Therefore balance is difficult to achieve.

Onefrkncrzypope

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Say what you want, but almost all games out there are dps oriented. Therefore, you see more dps nerfs than any other nerfs in any games. Easiest to adjust. I will say no more because I don't want to derail the thread with this. As it is as pointless as class feedbacks.

Why mention"all games out there" when we're talking about ESO ?
And I did not say that DPS doesn't matter. I say that all roles and all non-DPS abilities also contribute to DPS. Therefore balance is difficult to achieve.

I will assume most players speaking of balance speak in the same way. That there isn't major gaps between classes. Now balance between Stam and mag is more of an opinion thing, but for a magblade to hit 20k over a magwarden. hey mag wardens got like major protection right... Balance cause like it's really hard to survive with out major protection. Seriously don't convolute the form of balance that most people want. Dps parses that are similar.