What is the point of PTS class feedback?

Nightfall12

So its more like if a chef asks you to taste the soup, and you tell the chef this soups tastes horrible! But the chef says well you didn't get poisoned so it going on the menu!!

Agalloch

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone,

We understand you're frustrated and disappointed there won't be any additional changes to class balance. No, really. That isn't a canned response - the frustration today has been noticed. While we did implement several changes to class balance in the first PTS patch, there's still more to be done. Unfortunately, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to do everything and we don't want to implement changes sloppily (which will introduce loads of risk to other abilities and systems). In these cases, we need to prioritize. As mentioned earlier this morning, the current priority is making sure the new item sets are balanced and fixing outstanding bugs, among a few other things.

It's worth noting we are still moving forward with the Class Representative Program mentioned a few weeks back, and are still in the process of narrowing down the nominations to a group of about 10-12 players. To give you some insight, we've gotten it down to about 30 players as of today. This program will help give us additional insight to the current class pain points and, if everything works as planned, open up the dialogue between everyone to give some more transparency which we know could use some improvement. We hope to have this spun up by time Summerset launches, so it will be soon.

As far as the PTS class feedback threads, these do prove to be useful to have everything centralized in a single thread. In the future, though, we're talking about limiting these threads to the updates where we plan to actively make changes to class abilities to better set expectations.

The last thing I want are sloppy changes that aren't thought out or broken item/systems coming in an update in an effort to placate the masses.

I'm fine with the focus being on the new content, jewelry crafting, on the new skillline, and the new sets. I did not expect a major (or even minor) class balance changes regardless of what was written before.

It's not even about this update. For the past year, the combat changes have been focused on stuff that I can't say is very exciting for me: light attacks (Summerset), Off-balance and heavy attacks (I forget, Dragon bones or Clockwork City or both), and the big resource-sustain "adjustments" (Morrowind). While I am sure someone can write an essay of how these changes make for more tactical combat, I don't log on every night to play getting fired up knowing my light attack is going to do x% more damage or here's a 5 second window where the boss is immune and I can get a few more resources if I heavy attack (which I can't because the boss is invulnerable or there's some mechanic I have to avoid). I fell in love with this game before all that stuff was added. Every fantasy or RPG game I played that was any fun at all involved building a character that could do interesting and intellectual stimulating things that were outside the "normal" basic attack/defense routine (i.e. in this game light/heavy attacks and passive defense) and were things I have to devote choices we get from leveling up to do (i.e. character progression). We're getting a little of this in the psijic line, but that's the problem: we're only getting a little of this in something that's outside my class, available to everyone else, and it's not nearly enough to make up for all the nerfs and adjustments since Homestead.

Classes are important. They represent the core of the building blocks we use to create our hero and should receive priority over things like light attacks and off-balance mechanics. To me, it's not enough that my class can finish difficult content if in my mind I could have done better on something else. That's the problem that people who claim "the class can complete X, it's fine" does not understand. If the class *feels* weak while playing it, that's precisely the opposite of why I play these sorts of games. I don't want to feel weak. These games try to make you the hero who saves the world for a reason. We want THAT feeling.

If I mained a magicka warden, and I'm glad I don't, I'd be disappointed regardless if some people can post a respectable target dummy parse (using a specific setup with a bear). I don't play this game for target dummy parses. I want to be able to CC an opposing player and perhaps follow that up with a killing blow without the safety of a zerg to protect me. The past year's worth of changes have made it exceptionally more difficult to do just that so we're at probably the one the worst feeling people can have in playing an fantasy/RPG games: frustration playing the game because the character I want to play feels gimped, feels handicapped, feels weak, feels if they made the "wrong" choice.

This!

I play MMO games since Meridian 59 . I play them for fun and ESO is the one that I play for about 3 years besides the beta test..when I spent 6 months into it.

I am not an elitist . I love ESO ..but since Morrowind all is about nerf things ...and resource management. Not every player know how to weave ..
95% of the player base are playing for fun. The rest are elitist who know very well how to weave , to use light attacks and heavy attacks..etc.. They are the ones that complete all the hard content in the game. Gratz to you people!

But an MMO is meant to keep a solid player base ...form veterans to new ones...

What I see since Morrowind is all about to nerf the players ...which is an artificial move to make the content harder.

Every patch , my main ( a stamina dk ) become weaker... RIP also my templar, my warden , even my nightblade .

Every patch is getting harder to play for fun this game ( in matter of combat and end game content)

Make a poll and ask how many finished a vet trial...

Make a poll and ask how many players finished any DLC vet dungeon.


Before Morrowind the number was greater than now.

Please ZOS we want to play this game for fun not with things in mind like this "ohh I hope the latency will be good this fight so I can use my light and heavy attacks in time..." Ohh I fogot to block this...oh..I blocked to early and now I'm out of sustain"...

Please revert all the changes in matter of combat and class balance u did starting with Morrowind. Keep only the bug fixes.

English is not my native language.

Feanor

schattenkind wrote: »

With all that frustration you should not forget one point: everyone is saying his point of view and there is no consensus among the players, 10 like the change, 10 dont. And this since the pts started for, what, 20 pages? Most threads are about buff that, nerf that, pages of discussions about [class] is to strong, [class] is to weak, if I get nerfed nerf the others too, I want this, I want that... How is someone supposed to make serious changes from that? Sure there are some good points in all that but this is still an opinion of some, while others are still against. There never will be changes that suit all players.

I've seen very few objective comments that really contribute to a solution, posting tests and numbers without whining, explaining many possibilities of why sth is not a good idea, giving suggestions. and so on. Some of that got changed already. But honestly, the most of the posts is telling how the individual interrests are being cut, some friendly, some not, mostly just demanding and sometimes disrespectful a.f.

Even if they chose some class representatives, there will be discussions why him, why not others, why not me, they dont decide for what I want etc.

Saying that, I dont agree with some changes too (rune cage f.e.) but someone has to decide and there cant be a decision based on whats going on here... I wouldnt like to be the one to decide, because no matter what decision is made, the person made it will be ripped appart alive anyway.

Imo there never will be a real balance but a constant progression circling around an almost-balance for ever. And never will the players be satisfied.

There already is a huge mess in the pts forums and with each posting it gets worse in my opinion.

That’s just not true. The quality of feedback (and I agree some postings are not really useful) just makes it a bit more likely things might get changed. Proof: The Templar thread. @Cinbri and @Joy_Division as well as @Minno among others have posted very well thought out stuff with tests and numbers, and most importantly, a huge experience base because they main the class for years and are good with it.

The result: Templars didn’t get changes they need, heck they didn’t even get the most critical bugs fixed.

Feedback isn’t a pat on the back no matter how you did the job. Sometimes I get the feeling that’s all that is wanted from the players though. And the money of course.

Bashev

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone,

We understand you're frustrated and disappointed there won't be any additional changes to class balance. No, really. That isn't a canned response - the frustration today has been noticed. While we did implement several changes to class balance in the first PTS patch, there's still more to be done. Unfortunately, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to do everything and we don't want to implement changes sloppily (which will introduce loads of risk to other abilities and systems). In these cases, we need to prioritize. As mentioned earlier this morning, the current priority is making sure the new item sets are balanced and fixing outstanding bugs, among a few other things.

It's worth noting we are still moving forward with the Class Representative Program mentioned a few weeks back, and are still in the process of narrowing down the nominations to a group of about 10-12 players. To give you some insight, we've gotten it down to about 30 players as of today. This program will help give us additional insight to the current class pain points and, if everything works as planned, open up the dialogue between everyone to give some more transparency which we know could use some improvement. We hope to have this spun up by time Summerset launches, so it will be soon.

As far as the PTS class feedback threads, these do prove to be useful to have everything centralized in a single thread. In the future, though, we're talking about limiting these threads to the updates where we plan to actively make changes to class abilities to better set expectations.

I guess most of the players would be fine that first you balance the new features and fix the bugs and then you balance the class skills if we weren't supposed to wait 6-8 months for the next class balance changes.

ZOS , your balance approach is very wrong.

Bashev wrote: »

ZoS balancing doesn't work like this. They dont balance the game globally, they divide it to several samples and then balance these samples. This is absolutely wrong.

We had weapons balancing, we had class skills balancing, we had fighters skills balancing, we had race balancing, we had light and heavy attacks balancing, we had item sets balancing and so on.

ZOS never balance all aspect of the game at the same time.

So next year Vamp and WW balance changes. Please be patient

Xsorus

Defile and befoul isn’t broken... if people could heal through fasalla and defile back in the day you can’t complain about it now

schattenkind

Feanor wrote: »

schattenkind wrote: »

With all that frustration you should not forget one point: everyone is saying his point of view and there is no consensus among the players, 10 like the change, 10 dont. And this since the pts started for, what, 20 pages? Most threads are about buff that, nerf that, pages of discussions about [class] is to strong, [class] is to weak, if I get nerfed nerf the others too, I want this, I want that... How is someone supposed to make serious changes from that? Sure there are some good points in all that but this is still an opinion of some, while others are still against. There never will be changes that suit all players.

I've seen very few objective comments that really contribute to a solution, posting tests and numbers without whining, explaining many possibilities of why sth is not a good idea, giving suggestions. and so on. Some of that got changed already. But honestly, the most of the posts is telling how the individual interrests are being cut, some friendly, some not, mostly just demanding and sometimes disrespectful a.f.

Even if they chose some class representatives, there will be discussions why him, why not others, why not me, they dont decide for what I want etc.

Saying that, I dont agree with some changes too (rune cage f.e.) but someone has to decide and there cant be a decision based on whats going on here... I wouldnt like to be the one to decide, because no matter what decision is made, the person made it will be ripped appart alive anyway.

Imo there never will be a real balance but a constant progression circling around an almost-balance for ever. And never will the players be satisfied.

There already is a huge mess in the pts forums and with each posting it gets worse in my opinion.

That’s just not true. The quality of feedback (and I agree some postings are not really useful) just makes it a bit more likely things might get changed. Proof: The Templar thread. @Cinbri and @Joy_Division as well as @Minno among others have posted very well thought out stuff with tests and numbers, and most importantly, a huge experience base because they main the class for years and are good with it.

The result: Templars didn’t get changes they need, heck they didn’t even get the most critical bugs fixed.

Feedback isn’t a pat on the back no matter how you did the job. Sometimes I get the feeling that’s all that is wanted from the players though. And the money of course.

Well I didnt say that all is bad, just that there is not much good result, taken from all the 20 pages - actually its 28, just counted - with 30 threads each (makes aprox. 840 in total) since the pts launch. Number of postings not counted and hard to estimate, but even if we assume 20 per thread (which is low stated) it comes near 17k postings. If you now pick the "some" good and contributing postings, its a vanishing number compared to all that non-contributing posts being made. Furthermore, discussions over several pages from ppl who have no clue about the classes obviously make it less legible to someone who has to pick good stuff out.
I dont even bother to join class balance discussion, because I dont have that experience others have. As you say, there are ppl with this experience, but they have struggles to compete against all moaners who lack this experience. I cant even imagine how hard it has to be to pull out valuable information and seperate it from opinions.

I dont want to defend zos, neither to blame, I dont know how many ppl acutally take care of those reading and implementing changes. I address the behvaior in the pts forums, which makes it even harder for those ppl, regardless how many they are, demanding decisions and changes and then complaining about nothing being done.

Those few ppl who really contribute good stuff do a pretty good job and they should be listened to. Its just hard to hear a whisper in all the screams.

If they really come up with those "class representatives" I hope they wont tell names, to prevent those ppl from being haunted.

anitajoneb17_ESO

casparian wrote: »

Which is why we're frustrated that the devs, patch after patch, keep devoting their (understandably limited) time and energy to making new stuff instead of fixing our classes. "We didn't have enough time" misses the point -- to a lot of us, that sounds like a reason to not put out new content, not a reason to neglect existing content.
I understand that fixing existing issues is much harder to monetize than pumping out a new land to explore, but at some point in order to retain players you're going to need to make us feel like the time we're putting into the classes we play is time well spent.

Wu... whaaat ?
Are you suggesting that the (imho 90%) of players who enjoy exploration, lore, quests, roleplay and trading, should just sit and wait until you (imho 10%) min/maxers get your 2% upwards or downwards of fine tuning of class abilities for the sake of "balance" ?
You can't be serious...
There's far more player retention gained with new zones, stories and system than with "class balance".

zParallaxz

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

Which is why we're frustrated that the devs, patch after patch, keep devoting their (understandably limited) time and energy to making new stuff instead of fixing our classes. "We didn't have enough time" misses the point -- to a lot of us, that sounds like a reason to not put out new content, not a reason to neglect existing content.
I understand that fixing existing issues is much harder to monetize than pumping out a new land to explore, but at some point in order to retain players you're going to need to make us feel like the time we're putting into the classes we play is time well spent.

Wu... whaaat ?
Are you suggesting that the (imho 90%) of players who enjoy exploration, lore, quests, roleplay and trading, should just sit and wait until you (imho 10%) min/maxers get your 2% upwards or downwards of fine tuning of class abilities for the sake of "balance" ?
You can't be serious...
There's far more player retention gained with new zones, stories and system than with "class balance".

Dude I never knew there was a skill cap for a doing some simple quests in a new zone, fr at least try to use maelstrom arena as a point of reference. This thread and the people with complaints are referring to the higher skill cap of competitive pve and pvp. Not vanilla zone quests and role playing.

Feanor

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

Which is why we're frustrated that the devs, patch after patch, keep devoting their (understandably limited) time and energy to making new stuff instead of fixing our classes. "We didn't have enough time" misses the point -- to a lot of us, that sounds like a reason to not put out new content, not a reason to neglect existing content.
I understand that fixing existing issues is much harder to monetize than pumping out a new land to explore, but at some point in order to retain players you're going to need to make us feel like the time we're putting into the classes we play is time well spent.

Wu... whaaat ?
Are you suggesting that the (imho 90%) of players who enjoy exploration, lore, quests, roleplay and trading, should just sit and wait until you (imho 10%) min/maxers get your 2% upwards or downwards of fine tuning of class abilities for the sake of "balance" ?
You can't be serious...
There's far more player retention gained with new zones, stories and system than with "class balance".

What would you think about ZOS opening threads on the PTS forum dedicated to „exploration, lore, quests, roleplay and trading“ and asked for your feedback and told you 3 weeks later that none of it matters? Of course you don’t need to do any balance if you just look at overland PvE or RP. This game still isn’t Skyrim with friends though (although a lot of people treat it that way).

anitajoneb17_ESO

zParallaxz wrote: »

This thread and the people with complaints are referring to the higher skill cap of competitive pve and pvp. Not vanilla zone quests and role playing.

Fine. Then you must understand that these requests are only relevant for, say, 1% of the players and therefore NOT A PRIORITY. And rightfully so.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Feanor wrote: »

This game still isn’t Skyrim with friends though (although a lot of people treat it that way).

This isn't Skyrim with friends ? Not sure about that.
But it sure isn't a MOBA and should not be treated that way by competitive endgame players.

Feanor wrote: »

What would you think about ZOS opening threads on the PTS forum dedicated to „exploration, lore, quests, roleplay and trading“ [snip]

Well for instance there's a megathread for missing lorebooks where we list the books that are still bugged, unobtainable after quest, whatever. Some of them are still not fixed after months and months, and sure we're not happy about it.
Now if we lorefreaks and lorebook hunters were creating an uproar every second day and 10 threads daily for the sake of those lorebooks, and eventually suggest ZOS stops all development until they've fixed the lorebooks, you'd certainly at some stage tell us to shut up because not everybody cares about lorebooks.

Well, that's pretty much what you're doing with your almighty "class balance" that so few people actually care about. And worse than that, you're imposing changes onto everyone and force everybody to relearn their class for your sake, for zero benefit. So yes, while I understand your concerns (because I can see your point of view) sometimes we'd like to tell you to shut up. You're not ZOS' 1st priority - as much as you'd like to be.

Navras

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone,

We understand you're frustrated and disappointed <...>

@ZOS_GinaBruno , while your reply is absolutely reasonable and understandable you may as well understand that a tuning process could not be completed in one step of pushing mods (buffs, nerfs) on a pts.

It is at least a three-step process involving feedback and a second tuning, otherwise it is just a waste of time in first place.

Anyhow, thanks for your feedback and time. cheers

Feanor

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

This game still isn’t Skyrim with friends though (although a lot of people treat it that way).

This isn't Skyrim with friends ? Not sure about that.
But it sure isn't a MOBA and should not be treated that way by competitive endgame players.

If it’s Skyrim with friends for you, why are you concerned about balance changes? Overland PvE and even the dungeons - or in other words, 90% of game content - isn’t affected by balance at all.

Edit: And you didn’t answer my first question aboutt the Feedback issue.

niawrathb16_ESO

The point of PTS class feedback is to inform the Devs of your opinion (just yours please dont try and speak for all of us) to point out problems/bugs that you have found , which means you need to test it for yourself and you can provide information only on what you have actually tested it on.

Only the devs have the collated information from more sources than that you can see on these forums. I wont say they know everything because they can't so you should keep giving them that feedback but dont stand here telling them and everyone who reads you know everything and you speak for everyone.

Personally I keep testing and giving feedback because I find the changes interesting learning things changing things even when the changes aren't in my favour.

zParallaxz

I think Zos has the consensus that they can’t make money off the people who pvp and do competitive pve, and a majority of their income come from simple quest doers and casuals. Zos needs to realize this is 2018, gamers will support a game financially if it’s good in terms of community relations and stable for the most the part. Aka fortnite makes tons of money just from battle passes and cosmetics. Also for those saying that ESO isn’t dying. A majority of their big streamers have left.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Feanor wrote: »

Edit: And you didn’t answer my first question aboutt the Feedback issue.

I did - sorry I answered in two steps, editing my post.

anitajoneb17_ESO

zParallaxz wrote: »

Also for those saying that ESO isn’t dying. A majority of their big streamers have left.

How does that matter ? ZOS doesn't get any income from streamers - only a little bit of publicity. Streamers aren't essential for a game.

Nifty2g

zParallaxz wrote: »

I think Zos has the consensus that they can’t make money off the people who pvp and do competitive pve, and a majority of their income come from simple quest doers and casuals. Zos needs to realize this is 2018, gamers will support a game financially if it’s good in terms of community relations and stable for the most the part. Aka fortnite makes tons of money just from battle passes and cosmetics. Also for those saying that ESO isn’t dying. A majority of their big streamers have left.

What do you mean by "big" streamers, streamers don't really do much for your game, and ESO's streamers just meme how much the game sucks if something happens to them, much like every streamer. ESO has never had big streamers, ever. Well actually they had Sypher, but he moved on and became big after ESO, as did Richard.

reiverx

I don't think the people who make the big decisions are aware of just how important class balance and quality of gameplay is to the players.

You'd be surprised at how many of us think shiny new things are of secondary importance at best.

Now we have two chapters that will be remembered for the wrong reasons.

MaxwellC

@Nifty2g
ZOS only looks for streamers who have an okay size audience when it comes to selecting players for balance changes e.g them visiting ZOS a few weeks back & most likely this upcoming class representation. They play a role in advertising the game while trying to quell players who look up to them for builds, strats,etc.
Not all streamers are bad & some are alright but the others are down right terrible case point one of those streamers calling stonefist a good ability when a majority of the DKs feel it needs to be scrapped completely. I've only seen one DK utilize stonefist in the past month & that was a level 30 or so DK.

We were fed this narrative that all of these changes are going to make the class perform better,etc yet that couldn't be far from the truth e.g those pedaling how DK changes were some ground breaking improvements when in actuality it wasn't even close.
So I disagree, streamers have a okay size role in regards to how this game performs & IMO that shouldn't be the case unless they're frequently top 10 groups/players on the leaderboards.

Joy_Division

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

Which is why we're frustrated that the devs, patch after patch, keep devoting their (understandably limited) time and energy to making new stuff instead of fixing our classes. "We didn't have enough time" misses the point -- to a lot of us, that sounds like a reason to not put out new content, not a reason to neglect existing content.
I understand that fixing existing issues is much harder to monetize than pumping out a new land to explore, but at some point in order to retain players you're going to need to make us feel like the time we're putting into the classes we play is time well spent.

Wu... whaaat ?
Are you suggesting that the (imho 90%) of players who enjoy exploration, lore, quests, roleplay and trading, should just sit and wait until you (imho 10%) min/maxers get your 2% upwards or downwards of fine tuning of class abilities for the sake of "balance" ?
You can't be serious...
There's far more player retention gained with new zones, stories and system than with "class balance".

The thing is, a lot of these 90% of players do care about character/build performance because there is feedback all the time about how instances such as vMA are inaccessible, how gear/rewards are inaccessible because of end-game content, how they are frustrated with DLC dungeons, stories of how they tried PvP once and got insta-killed and never again, etc.

With so many nerfs, so many poorly performing skills, so much power depends on specific gear and CP acquisition, etc., it has become harder to do many things in this game that aren't Overland questing. Just because these people enjoy exploration, quests, etc., does not mean they don't want to be able to get achievements and skins in more difficult content or are not concerned at all that they play a weak class. If anything I find it condescending to simply assume "the (imho 90%) of players who enjoy exploration, lore, quests, roleplay and trading" are obvious or do not care about how their class performs.

schattenkind

PvP is definitely a big part of this game, maybe not that big as PvE and RP but it deserves attention too. Each PvP player has his own style, build usage and imagination of balance, so class balance changes have a huge impact in the PvP world because they dont apply to only one detail but to a lot of sources ppl rely on.
Imo the balancing is to much measured on max skill players - of course they want to be balanced too and they notice slight changes lot more than unexperienced or average players. Downside is, that a few ppl initiate changes that affect a lot of ppl. If its a good change, ok, if its a bad change, the war begins. (here "good" or "bad" is a matter of personal interrest being touched). And obviously every change is good for someone, while being bad for someone else at the same time.
So, here we are.

I think ZOS should have a permanent experienced player advisors, not only when pts comes up, but all the time while developing new stuff. Put those ppl under strict NDA to all new stuff and use their knowledge and experience to prevent changes that end up in "war" or new created stuff that isnt half done when put on pts (like leveling the psijic skill line, which couldve benefit a lot from player ideas and would not end up in brainless grinding). Put ppl in there who play classes a long time, PvE and PvP, not only for balancing issues but also for introducing new skills or new morphs. Discuss this with them in a closed area with no flame and whining, take the result and then do fine-tuning on the pts. The pts cycle is to short for making big changes. Those who play this game since beta day by day know the game better than any dev will ever know.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Joy_Division wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

Which is why we're frustrated that the devs, patch after patch, keep devoting their (understandably limited) time and energy to making new stuff instead of fixing our classes. "We didn't have enough time" misses the point -- to a lot of us, that sounds like a reason to not put out new content, not a reason to neglect existing content.
I understand that fixing existing issues is much harder to monetize than pumping out a new land to explore, but at some point in order to retain players you're going to need to make us feel like the time we're putting into the classes we play is time well spent.

Wu... whaaat ?
Are you suggesting that the (imho 90%) of players who enjoy exploration, lore, quests, roleplay and trading, should just sit and wait until you (imho 10%) min/maxers get your 2% upwards or downwards of fine tuning of class abilities for the sake of "balance" ?
You can't be serious...
There's far more player retention gained with new zones, stories and system than with "class balance".

The thing is, a lot of these 90% of players do care about character/build performance because there is feedback all the time about how instances such as vMA are inaccessible, how gear/rewards are inaccessible because of end-game content, how they are frustrated with DLC dungeons, stories of how they tried PvP once and got insta-killed and never again, etc.

With so many nerfs, so many poorly performing skills, so much power depends on specific gear and CP acquisition, etc., it has become harder to do many things in this game that aren't Overland questing. Just because these people enjoy exploration, quests, etc., does not mean they don't want to be able to get achievements and skins in more difficult content or are not concerned at all that they play a weak class. If anything I find it condescending to simply assume "the (imho 90%) of players who enjoy exploration, lore, quests, roleplay and trading" are obvious or do not care about how their class performs.

You make valid points, Joy. But do you honestly think that the current player gap is caused by "class balance" or because of some abilities performing less than others ? I believe the main reason for some content being inaccessible to casual/bad/average players is the absence of soft caps and the importance of weaving/AC. The solution for that would be to slow down the combat pace and reduce the impact of LA and HA. In other words, reduce the weight of "player skill" and increase the weight of "character skill" in the overall result. And I do not believe that this is what "balance change" advocates are actually looking for.

I wasn't being "condescending" at all. Just merely stating that, for the average player (and there's a lot of us) all classes perform more or less equally fine. If there are class balance issues, only the 10% of players (if not 1%) will notice/diagnose them.

anitajoneb17_ESO

schattenkind wrote: »

I think ZOS should have a permanent experienced player advisors, not only when pts comes up, but all the time while developing new stuff. Put those ppl under strict NDA to all new stuff and use their knowledge and experience to prevent changes that end up in "war"

I believe that's what they're planning to do with the soon-to-come rep-team.

Feanor

Just merely stating that, for the average player (and there's a lot of us) all classes perform more or less equally fine. If there are class balance issues, only the 10% of players (if not 1%) will notice/diagnose them.

All classes perform equally fine when the content is easy, like overland pve and dungeons. That’s not the point of balance though.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Feanor wrote: »

Just merely stating that, for the average player (and there's a lot of us) all classes perform more or less equally fine. If there are class balance issues, only the 10% of players (if not 1%) will notice/diagnose them.

All classes perform equally fine when the content is easy, like overland pve and dungeons. That’s not the point of balance though.

Nope. Not what I meant.
I'll pull 20K DPS with ANY of my characters (which involve all 5 classes).
Any top 1% player will perform 35K DPS at least with ANY of my characters (because they're fully BiS geared with the exception of maelstroem weapons). Maybe they'll pull 32K with the magwarden and 45K with the magsorc. While I'll pull 20K with BOTH.
However my 20K will be enough for 95% of the content.

To sum it up :

- Class balance is only noticeable/usable by 5% of the playerbase
- Class balance only matters for 5% of the game's PVE content.

Admittedly PvP is a different story but there are so few PvPers as compared to PvEers that it doesn't really matter either.

May I ask what is, according to you, the point of balance ?

Feanor

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Just merely stating that, for the average player (and there's a lot of us) all classes perform more or less equally fine. If there are class balance issues, only the 10% of players (if not 1%) will notice/diagnose them.

All classes perform equally fine when the content is easy, like overland pve and dungeons. That’s not the point of balance though.

Nope. Not what I meant.
I'll pull 20K DPS with ANY of my characters (which involve all 5 classes).
Any top 1% player will perform 35K DPS at least with ANY of my characters (because they're fully BiS geared with the exception of maelstroem weapons). Maybe they'll pull 32K with the magwarden and 45K with the magsorc. While I'll pull 20K with BOTH.
However my 20K will be enough for 95% of the content.

To sum it up :

- Class balance is only noticeable/usable by 5% of the playerbase
- Class balance only matters for 5% of the game's PVE content.

Admittedly PvP is a different story but there are so few PvPers as compared to PvEers that it doesn't really matter either.

Again: If you pull 20k and are not a top player or a PvP player, why does balance getting requested bother you? It doesn’t concern you then at all.

Joy_Division

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

Which is why we're frustrated that the devs, patch after patch, keep devoting their (understandably limited) time and energy to making new stuff instead of fixing our classes. "We didn't have enough time" misses the point -- to a lot of us, that sounds like a reason to not put out new content, not a reason to neglect existing content.
I understand that fixing existing issues is much harder to monetize than pumping out a new land to explore, but at some point in order to retain players you're going to need to make us feel like the time we're putting into the classes we play is time well spent.

Wu... whaaat ?
Are you suggesting that the (imho 90%) of players who enjoy exploration, lore, quests, roleplay and trading, should just sit and wait until you (imho 10%) min/maxers get your 2% upwards or downwards of fine tuning of class abilities for the sake of "balance" ?
You can't be serious...
There's far more player retention gained with new zones, stories and system than with "class balance".

The thing is, a lot of these 90% of players do care about character/build performance because there is feedback all the time about how instances such as vMA are inaccessible, how gear/rewards are inaccessible because of end-game content, how they are frustrated with DLC dungeons, stories of how they tried PvP once and got insta-killed and never again, etc.

With so many nerfs, so many poorly performing skills, so much power depends on specific gear and CP acquisition, etc., it has become harder to do many things in this game that aren't Overland questing. Just because these people enjoy exploration, quests, etc., does not mean they don't want to be able to get achievements and skins in more difficult content or are not concerned at all that they play a weak class. If anything I find it condescending to simply assume "the (imho 90%) of players who enjoy exploration, lore, quests, roleplay and trading" are obvious or do not care about how their class performs.

You make valid points, Joy. But do you honestly think that the current player gap is caused by "class balance" or because of some abilities performing less than others ? I believe the main reason for some content being inaccessible to casual/bad/average players is the absence of soft caps and the importance of weaving/AC. The solution for that would be to slow down the combat pace and reduce the impact of LA and HA. In other words, reduce the weight of "player skill" and increase the weight of "character skill" in the overall result. And I do not believe that this is what "balance change" advocates are actually looking for.

I wasn't being "condescending" at all. Just merely stating that, for the average player (and there's a lot of us) all classes perform more or less equally fine. If there are class balance issues, only the 10% of players (if not 1%) will notice/diagnose them.

You did not mean to be condescending, but you are trying to speak for 90% of the community based on just your assumptions rather than evidence, which I find to be problematic. I don't doubt we all have a reasonable hunch of what certain sectors of the player-base wants or desires, but that is (too) long a leap to all of a sudden be assigning specific numbers and stating what they do or do not want.

But to your question, yes, I absolutely feel a huge gap in power comes from the way ZoS has balanced their game. Before the champion system, the majority of power we had as players came from our class abilities, which was accessible to everyone, not specific gear, not max CP points, not specific combat mechanics such as maintaining off-balance, etc., There were certain gear sets that were broken or very strong such as Warlock and Twin Sisters, but Twin Sisters were soon nerfed and I didn't have to do a end-game Trial to get Warlock. So even if the players were relatively inexperienced or did not know how to play efficiently, the power was still accessible in their kit: it was just a matter of learning how to use it.

Also, with the huge power creep, the difference between a min-maxxed player today is miles ahead of the sorts of players who do not prioritize combat effectiveness. Players today must do things to acquire power outside their class (grind gear, grind CPs, grind jewelry mats, maximize group warhorn up-time, circumvent intentional resource bottlenecks and other nerfs, etc) as well as "L2P". It's a tall order.

I think it's fair to say just about every gamer does not like dying before a quest objective is completed and wants the proper tools to function correctly and effectively in order to be able to complete the quest objective. Because of the nerfs, because of the neglect to balance, because of the reliance of systems outside the classes, completing the quest objectives for anything that is not overland content has gotten overly restrictive for everyone, not just those players whose focus is more exploration or RP. If I am not grouped up with three other players who are super cognizant of PvE mechanics, it's pretty much pointless to do something like Falkreath Hold dungeon. I spent 6 hours the other night in a group of 12 players, many of who have been at the game since Launch and know what they are doing, just to beat Sanctum Ophidia. Too many nefs. Too much emphasis on gear. Too much reliance on overly convoluted mechanics like off-balance. Not enough tender loving care to what out classes can do and what has been taken away from them.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Feanor wrote: »

Again: If you pull 20k and are not a top player or a PvP player, why does balance getting requested bother you? It doesn’t concern you then at all.

It does if :
- Changes occur that force me to relearn my character in order to reach my 20K again.
- Changes make my gameplay less fun (yes I had a lot of fun knocking down enemies - players and mobs alike - with my crystal frags, and that fun has been taken away from me for the sake of "balance")
- ZOS decides - as requested by some here - that the development and release of further zones/quests/features should be kept on hold until "balance" is achieved.
- If the forums, which I usually enjoy reading, are constantly cluttered with usually rude "balance requests" and "balance rants".

(and pls answer my question about the "point of balance" - I know I added it later, I'm always writing in steps, sorry about that)

DDuke

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey everyone,

We understand you're frustrated and disappointed there won't be any additional changes to class balance. No, really. That isn't a canned response - the frustration today has been noticed. While we did implement several changes to class balance in the first PTS patch, there's still more to be done. Unfortunately, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to do everything and we don't want to implement changes sloppily (which will introduce loads of risk to other abilities and systems). In these cases, we need to prioritize. As mentioned earlier this morning, the current priority is making sure the new item sets are balanced and fixing outstanding bugs, among a few other things.

Gina, the problem is that while there's a lot of cool things coming with Summerset, many of the changes made to class balance in this patch do seem sloppily implemented.

Take snare removal morph of DK wings for example, no snare immunity period means the morph essentially does nothing in bigger fights, especially against other DKs who refresh their snare every time they damage you.

Then there's the overtuned Rune Cage dealing twice the damage of Fossilize now (on a class that already had good burst) with 28m range, completely undodgeable/blockable & also breaks cloak if you use it after Rune Cage is applied.


So not holding my breath, but would be nice if some of these could be addressed before Summerset launches.

Or at the very least it'd be nice to get some dev comments & rationale on why they these types of changes were made.