ZoS I think you better change that "grind fest/10 times harder" really fast !

A lot of player are posting complains about this new craft systems.. and it's only in PTS.
Guess what will happen when it'll hit live servers...

Personally I'll not recommend this expansion to anyone in it's state.
New craft system = boring 1000% grindy system
New skill set = ok but not many skills will be really used in hard dungeons/trials (to be seen)

If your idea was to make sure people would still do vet trials dungeon.. I think you're completly wrong.
People who couldn't do them because their stats are not good enough (DPS etc.) , will still not be able to do them.
People who didn't do them ( but could) and wanted to start doing them to deconstruct ring/neclace, will not do them
due to the poor ratio you put on decon versus ressources.

congratulation !!
From something that could have been a great new feature..you just ruined it to something 1000% boring and grindy

I just went on pts to do some testing and refined 10000 mats I got from the template character.



You need to harvest that many items to get one of the crafting achievements. And I remember that took me ages on my main toon.

Refining the dust resulted in the following mats



So those 10.000 dust gave me not even enough to make one ring gold.
It's enough for:

7 green upgrades
3 blue upgrades
1 purple upgrade
0 gold upgrades

Yes, of course this doesn't take deconning items into account, but with the system like this the only one enjoying this will be bot farmers.

And there's another concern I would want to raise with the new introduced layer of grains. And that is storage.
Imagine a new player getting Summerset, trying out the game. Without the crafting bag handling storage is bad enough as it is, but instead of just having ounces, tempers and traitstones (5 + 4 + 9 = 18 new item types) we are getting so many more (~ 40). I'm not sure anyone without a craftbag will think this a good system.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert

Recremen wrote: »

Yeah hi I've been here since early access and have been doing crafting the whole time.

Yeah, hi, me too. So we can put that Appeal to Authority right where it deserves to go... on our Rhetological Fallacy bingo card.

Recremen wrote: »

You're wrong. We've always had enough skill points to do all crafts plus combat things. We used to have to make some "hard" choices about which specific weapons we wanted to use, but it wasn't that bad.

We always had enough points... but had to make some hard choices. Not sure those match quite as well as you seem to think they do.

How about this, a player who started pre-OT (i.e. only had access to their alliance starting zones) had access to about 7 skill-points (7 and 1/3) from Skyshards alone (Stonefalls/Auridon/Glenumbra + starting islands). Now they have access to 21 comparatively simple points (given complexity of delves and so on).

Don't like that argument? Alrighty, pre-OT you were quest-locked into your alliance (plus Coldharbour) which gave you access to 28 skill-points (28 2/3, 34 points including Coldharbour) in zones with increasing difficulty. Now due to the removal of the Cadwell's quest requirement and scaled content there is very little stopping a brand new character sprinting through every PvE zone in the game collecting Skyshards.

But yes, by all means suggest that the provision of skill points for crafting skills hasn't gotten easier.

Recremen wrote: »

Enchanting was "hard" to level up in that you had to put a decent amount of effort in, but it wasn't that bad. I had it fully leveled without issue and now have it fully leveled on 15 characters.

Obviously Enchanting was considered so easy by the masses that they left it alone and never made levelling it easier.

All of the crafting skills were harder to level (no writs with easy access to intricate items, no kiosks to share items). Enchanting was just the worst. And it has gotten easier.

Recremen wrote: »

"Trivialize crafting" as if getting all motifs and all traits on all crafts or learning all recipes is trivial, lol. It's an enormous grind and requires either engaging in multiple content types yourself (PvP, PvE) or buying it at a high cost from others. Get out of here with that noise, it's plain as day that become a master crafter is still a huge investment.

Yay, another one for my bingo card (Ad Hoc Rescue). Which of those things actually affects the functional ability to produce gear for the use of yourself or other player? The best point you have in that lot is traits, and getting items with traits is easier (guild kiosks) and researching them can be faster (research scrolls).

Whether you look at in in terms of the impact that crafting has, or in the functional ability to make gear it has been made easier... and, I stand by my categorization, trivial.

Recremen wrote: »

Citation needed regarding the interviews implying that you wouldn't be able to craft and do other content, btw. I never heard any of that and I followed this game quite diligently.

Three down, only two more needed! Strawman. Lets' take my actual statement shall we?

Iluvrien wrote:

I want this system to reflect how things were, the way there were described in the interviews that got me to trust that ZOS could turn TES into an MMO in the first place.

With regards to references for saying that crafting would require time an investment, here's some quotes from a nice Q&A with Paul Sage a month before PC Launch. [Emphasis mine in each case]

Q: For you, how long does it takes to master a profession?

A: Not sure how long it takes to master a profession, but pretty long is my guess. ~200-300 hours. Assume top tier. It also depends on the professsion. Smithing will take longer because of research.

and

Q: With Crafting being as viable as it is in ESO, the “upgrading” from a lower level item to a higher is incredibly difficult, time-consuming, & finance-consuming. Will this be re-visited & re-interfaced in any ways?

A. The high payoffs of crating will take time and effort investment. I don’t think we’re interested in short-cutting that.

and

Q: Can the players can make tannin, resin, temper materials? Or this item can get for drop, chest, extracting and from hireling only?

A: You get these from three sources: <snip>

They are restricted to these methods, because we want crafters to be valuable.

and

Q: Why is there such a long research time for traits?

A: Thanks for asking. There are a number of reasons, but perhaps the most important to me is the offline experience. There is something special about logging in and seeing something complete. It is hard to explain, but I love that moment when I can research a new trait, craft a new thing, or even feed my horse after logging back in. Also, it ramps the game up more slowly. Not everyone will be able to craft everything right away. It is going to take time for the game to mature. And perhaps finally, it also makes the dedicated crafter stand out just a little bit more.

There are more. Just in that interview.

Crafting was meant to be impactful, meaningful and require time to master. Crafters were supposed to stand out and "be valuable".

Now that everyone thinks they should, and is able to, be their own crafter? Well, we all know that one quote about when everyone's super.

Lols, and its behind a chapter too.

Not gonna use the system at all. At first I was super excited but after trying it out on the PTS I'm nearly sure I will treat it like... fishing. E.g. it is there but I won't be making use of it.

ZOS are the masters of killing the hype for their products.

This is utterly bonkers! I'm not that into crafting, so I will give it a pass but this system caters ONLY to the most hardcore players that spend 8-10 hours a day playing this game.

Let's put this into perspective. Right now, a gold quality ring or necklace will cost you around 500.000 gold. Fair enough, those are rare and require a fair amount of effort. Now compare it to crafted jewellery. It will take an enormous amount of time and grind to make just one golden piece.

This means, 10x the grind, 10x the price. So a good golden piece will now cost you 5.000.000. that's 15mil gold for a 3 piece set. That amount of gold is unachievable for most players and will line the pockets of crafter's.

Concluding, only the most hardcore players and guild traders will have access to BiS set combinations, meaning the game will become for elitists only PvP wise. I kinda hope it won't be the case, but watch this space. PvP will become about not skill but who has the most gold.

Thank you ZOS. You have now made elitists gods in this game, widening the gap between them and more casual players to the point that many will simply drop the game.

Best part of this thread is the jewelry master writs from PTS.

zaria wrote: »

The problem is that it look like one purple ring will be more expensive than an bis level crafted set including golden weapons.

It absolutely will be more expensive, and heck of a journey to get purple or even gold crafted jewelry.

Not something I have a lot of interest in. I will continue to use Dropped Set jewelry to make up one 5 Piece, Crafted for the other. Gold Jewels are not that much better, it should be more in fact. Anyway, I don't need to make or upgrade anything now.

However I would like to. In fact, let me change that, I would love to craft and upgrade jewelry. If nothing else, a Crafted Weapon and Jewels makes farming dropped 5 piece sets a breeze. I am just not going to for a long time until I stumble across enough mats. This makes me a sad camper.

VaranisArano wrote: »

I'm alright with the grind.

What?

Look, my golden jewelry used to be limited to what came up the Golden. There was no crafted golden jewelry at all. Compared to waiting on ZOS' RNG or not being able to craft jewelry at all, I'm alright with the grind.

Seriously?

Yeah, seriously. Lets say I want to gold out my Spriggan's rings for PVP. Before this, I had to wait and wait on the Golden Vendor (I got the gold necklace from her, lucky me). At least this way, I can gold out those rings if I want and it probably won't take me any longer to grind the mats than waiting on the Golden Vendor would.

But its really really grindy!

I've fully golded out 1 set of gear ever. That was a PVP set and the rings fortunately came up in the Golden. Not only is my need very rare as purple suffices for most things, but I can accept a grind if it means not waiting weeks on the Golden's RNG.

How bad something was in the past shouldn't be an excuse to hold back its improvement though.

ninibini wrote: »

So those 10.000 dust gave me not even enough to make one ring gold.
It's enough for:

7 green upgrades
3 blue upgrades
1 purple upgrade
0 gold upgrades

Well, that is quite interesting. The nodes are less frequent than 'normal' crafting ones too. Which means I'm not going to bother even if I really enjoy crafting.

ninibini wrote: »

I just went on pts to do some testing and refined 10000 mats I got from the template character.



You need to harvest that many items to get one of the crafting achievements. And I remember that took me ages on my main toon.

Refining the dust resulted in the following mats



So those 10.000 dust gave me not even enough to make one ring gold.
It's enough for:

7 green upgrades
3 blue upgrades
1 purple upgrade
0 gold upgrades

Yes, of course this doesn't take deconning items into account, but with the system like this the only one enjoying this will be bot farmers.

And there's another concern I would want to raise with the new introduced layer of grains. And that is storage.
Imagine a new player getting Summerset, trying out the game. Without the crafting bag handling storage is bad enough as it is, but instead of just having ounces, tempers and traitstones (5 + 4 + 9 = 18 new item types) we are getting so many more (~ 40). I'm not sure anyone without a craftbag will think this a good system.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert

LMAO that reminds me Black Desert, where u have to pay real money to actually be able to play and increase a weight (Since u need to travel miles to grind zones but they drop *** of stuff so its actually a must upgrade to have.)
ESO is getting closer and closer.

Idk, half a year for mount training was pretty horrible.

Recremen wrote: »

Yeah hi I've been here since early access and have been doing crafting the whole time. You're wrong. We've always had enough skill points to do all crafts plus combat things.

Second this. In fact it's actually EASIER to do crafting when you do everything, because you get skill points from the majority of activities that you wouldn't have gotten if you skipped on them.

ninibini wrote: »

And there's another concern I would want to raise with the new introduced layer of grains. And that is storage.
Imagine a new player getting Summerset, trying out the game. Without the crafting bag handling storage is bad enough as it is, but instead of just having ounces, tempers and traitstones (5 + 4 + 9 = 18 new item types) we are getting so many more (~ 40). I'm not sure anyone without a craftbag will think this a good system.

Sadly I have to agree with @Adernath that this is probably Working As Intended to push people to ESO+.

Iluvrien wrote: »

How about this, a player who started pre-OT (i.e. only had access to their alliance starting zones) had access to about 7 skill-points (7 and 1/3) from Skyshards alone (Stonefalls/Auridon/Glenumbra + starting islands). Now they have access to 21 comparatively simple points (given complexity of delves and so on).

Don't like that argument? Alrighty, pre-OT you were quest-locked into your alliance (plus Coldharbour) which gave you access to 28 skill-points (28 2/3, 34 points including Coldharbour) in zones with increasing difficulty. Now due to the removal of the Cadwell's quest requirement and scaled content there is very little stopping a brand new character sprinting through every PvE zone in the game collecting Skyshards.

You're forgetting all about Veteran Ranks, and assuming a pre-OT character had no access to Caldwell's Gold and Silver, which isn't true. Remember, max level was NOT level 50 back then, it was a 'Veteran Rank' on top of level 50. You had to beat Coldharbour and you had to reach level 50 to start on the other alliances - but you had to get to 50 to start getting Veteran Ranks anyway, and leveling up was done mostly via questing back then, so Coldharbour was on the way. So you had the same access to Skyshards in the vanilla zones as you do today, but with the added bonus that if you missed Skyshards in dungeons back then, you could then go back with you Veteran Rank Whatever and mow through the level 35 mobs with even more ease than a max CP character today. It was also more straight-forward to get materials because recall, you used to be able to just go to the appropriately-leveled zone and farm. Now you have to specifically keep a character at that level and/or crafting level, hope you get lucky in a Writ drop, or buy it from someone else.

Ruby mats didn't drop until quite some time after launch, so there was no massive grind to craft max-level gear back then - the 10x mat requirement did more damage to crafting than anything else, because why bother spending several hours farming to decon for single ingots (or ridiculous amounts of gold buying them) when you can use the dropped sets you got while farming?

(I'll ignore the bug that made VR1 Provisioning recipes drop in the starting zones, since we seem to be focused on the gear crafts, but that was also there, making a crafting skill trivial at launch.)

But I suppose if at launch you had purposely avoided leveling up and completely shunned the main quest - in which case you need to axe the skill points from those from your calculations - then yes, it would have been hard to be a crafter and still do other things. But that's on you as a player, not on the game.

Iluvrien wrote: »

With regards to references for saying that crafting would require time an investment, here's some quotes from a nice Q&A with Paul Sage a month before PC Launch. [Emphasis mine in each case]

Q: For you, how long does it takes to master a profession?

A: Not sure how long it takes to master a profession, but pretty long is my guess. ~200-300 hours. Assume top tier. It also depends on the professsion. Smithing will take longer because of research.

Time maybe, but investment? At launch? And let's not forget the actual time required from you, the player, for research was ~5 minutes to run over to the bench and pick the item for research. The rest could be spent sipping Two-Moon Cordials on the beaches while you wait for it to finish if you wanted; you could even unsub and play something else as long as you put something up to research first.

Slow I will grant you but it wasn't much of a grind at launch. And since you specifically drew attention to this interview being before launch, it was ALSO before Nirncrux, so the money involved was minimal too.

Iluvrien wrote: »

Crafting was meant to be impactful, meaningful and require time to master. Crafters were supposed to stand out and "be valuable".

And then they nerfed crafted sets so they were no longer better than what dropped. ZOS lied there. Or, to be more charitable, they changed their minds. But regardless those days are gone and they're not coming back.

code65536 wrote: »

But... don't you see the problem with that?

Why bother with adding a new crafting system, if there is no reason to use it? If it's so unattractive that people's reaction is to just carry on with the status quo and pretend that it doesn't exist?

This is the part that makes me sad.