The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
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Furniture Slot Limits Are Not Random Or Arbitrary. They Are Necessary And Have A Possible Solution.

Woefulmonkey
Woefulmonkey
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I am a software engineer but not a game developer, although I did dabble in game development in my youth. I am very confident in what I am about to describe but cannot be 100% certain of the actual technical implementations because I don’t work for ESO and have never tried to break open their code to poke around.

Ok, this could be somewhat long post to stay with me if you can. This will hopefully give people a better understanding of ‘why’ things are the way they are today, and constructive ways to approach ESO about ‘solving’ the ‘limit problem’.

First I will try to explain why there are limits for how much furniture you can place and why they are ‘so low’ in some people’s opinions.

Then I will explain how game developers cheat to overcome the problems that make object limits an issue.

Finally, I will describe how those approaches could be used to solve at least ‘most’ of the limit issues people are having.

Why Are Limits ‘So Low’.

Because that is the ‘Best’ they could do.

They are not trying to screw you. Trust me if they could give you infinite slots they would in a heartbeat because furniture generates revenues for ‘items’ that are practically free for ESO to create.

So… Why is 700 slots the best ESO could do? (After all the game world seems to have many more objects than you can place in your house)

The game world is running on ESO hardware with high multiple high-end servers and high grade database systems ensuring data integrity.

However, your ‘House’ is ‘Instanced’…. Meaning it is not running from the Game World servers, it is running almost certainly form ‘Your’ system which even if you have a massively expensive gaming PC is nothing compared to the Game Server systems.

To make matters worse, since the House Instance is running from ‘Player Hardware’, ESO ‘MUST’ ensure it can run from the ‘LOWEST’ quality PC/Console that the game supports.

Which means even if ‘YOUR’ PC can handle 2K objects, ESO can’t support that. They ‘MUST’ support the ‘WORST’ system which can barely handle managing 700 objects.

Now for the technical babble.

Why can ‘low end’ systems only handle 700 objects?

Because every ‘Unique’ slot object you place in your home has to perform collision detection and graphics calculations to determine if it ‘can be seen’ from your characters current position and those calculations take into account ‘ever other existing object’.

Ok… So What the F does that mean right?

It means every object added dose not add 1 calculation to your system it adjust the calculation to something like N * (N -1 X 10) where N is the current number of objects you have placed.

So the number of calculations the PC must perform to display your objects is something close to N X ((N – 1) X 10).

Now lets break that down:

Lets say you place 10 items that is 10 * 9 * 10 calculation = 900 which is Fing easy for just about any PC.

Now lets up that to 20 items, so 20 * 19 * 10 calculation = 3800… Ok still pretty easy for a PC, but you can see this is way more than double the number of calculation.

Now lets jump to 700 items place… 700 * 699 * 10 = 4,893,000 …. Now those crappy PCs/Consoles are chugging.

Lets add 1 more item 701 * 700 * 10 = 4,907,000… So adding just 1 more item to the max increased the required calculations by 14,000.

Lets see what that looks like if you add 100 items... 800 * 799 * 10 = 6,392,000 calculation required…. The console just melted trying to keep up!

So an addition of 1,499,000 calculation to support 100 objects. That is a 30% increase in required calculations for 14% increase in objects.

Not a very good trade.

I hope you are starting to see the dilemma ESO has here and that ‘Adding Slots’ is almost certainly not going to happen.

Ok, so now you might be saying ‘Wait this guy if Full of BS, If things were so bad, why can these PC/Consoles play the normal game or dungeons which obviously must display way more items and the display is still happening on the players hardware’.

Well… You would be right…

If the game world and dungeons treated objects the same way they are treated in your house….

But they don’t treat them the same way…


In the Game Worlds they can ‘Cheat’, and I will explain how they do that next.

How Does ESO Cheat The Calculations To Get More Objects In The Game World And Dungeons.


The first ‘Key’ here is that ESO controls all object placement in those worlds and they can alter objects as they see fit.

The second ‘Key’ is that ESO can break up environments into segments so one continuous area may actually be 10 or 20 sub divided areas each containing its own object counts.

Ok… again what the F does that mean?

Lets start with how they can ‘combine’ objects to reduce object counts.

Say you want to display a basket of apples…

You start with an empty basket object and then start adding a dozen apples objects to it.

Great now you can display a basket full of apples but it takes 13 objects that each perform that calculation above….

Well since ESO controls everything in this environment they can take those 13 objects and analyze them to determine all the triangles that are required to make up the ‘visible’ parts of the objects. Then they remove the ‘not visible’ triangles and combine the remaining ‘visible’ triangles to make a single object that is ‘a basket full of apples’.

Think of it this… way image you could take that basket of apples, scoop out the inside so it is hollow then glue everything together so it keeps it shape even though it is just a hollow shell.


That reduced 13 objects to 1 object, which is a massive decrease in the number of calculations needed to display it.

And they can do this with way more than apples. They can use the same approach to combine the objects that make up a ‘table covered with food an utensils’ or a ‘bookshelf full of books and knicknakes’.

This technique by itself can save lots of calculations…. But Wait… There Is More!

They can also ‘break up’ environments by separating them with doors or even just long hallways that are basically don’t contain any AIs. All they have to do is ensure that the process of moving from one ‘zone’ to the next takes enough time to ensure a ‘new’ set of objects can load and the old set can unload.

Basically every time you pass through a door way or travel down an long empty hall you are probably loading a new zone and a whole new set of items are being loaded.

Which makes the ‘Game World’ and ‘Dungeons’ ‘FEEL’ more populated even though on a ‘Per Zone’ basis they are not.
These are only a couple examples of the way’s they can ‘cheat’ when they control the design of an environment, there are many more and they do months of testing to ensure performance when they create ‘their’ designs.

‘Your’ house is designed by you…

ESO has no idea what you are going to do…

But they have to ensure you can’t crash your system just by adding new items…

So they have to set that ‘Cap’ to something the ‘Know’ your system can always handle.

OK… So How Can you Cheat?

1. ) Don’t ‘Build’ things yourself. Meaning don’t make that basket of apples out of an empty basket and 12 apple object. Spring for the single object that is a basket full of apples if it exists.
2. ) Don’t make your own structure or walls out of ‘Blocks’. It can take 50 to 100 object just to make a ‘good’ doorway. I know the layout of building are often not ideal and it making walls and doorways can really enhance a home’s appearance, but that quickly eats up your slots. You might try to use the ‘Wood Planks’ which can cover larger areas to reduce your item counts. They don’t look a cool but should significantly reduce the objects needed to block off a room.
3. ) Don't custom decorate every table with dishes or every book case with tones of small items. As with number one looks for ‘pre-populated’ items if you can find them.

By restricting myself in this way I was able to furnish my ‘large’ home with less than 400 slots used. I furnished all rooms, placed 40 mounted heads, have all crafting stations, placed all pets and mounts, a bank, a merchant, and a fence. I also created a ‘hidden cave’ area and created scaffolding to reach ‘inaccessible’ areas of the map. But I did not ‘create an arena from scratch or try to reconfigure my home by creating doorways or divisional walls.


Now… What Can You Realistically Ask ESO To Do To ‘Solve’ The Slot Issue?

Ask them for more ‘pre-populated’ furnishing and complete structures like:
1. ) Fully formed ‘Walls’ of different sizes and ‘Walls With Doorways’ already built into them.
2. ) Completely populated bookcases, tables, dresser’s, cupboards, and shelves.
3. ) Complete add on structures like ‘Stable Houses’ or ‘Small Towers’ and ‘A Diverse Set Of Scaffolding Structures With Ramps That Are Stackable’.
Edited by Woefulmonkey on February 21, 2018 7:17AM
  • DoctorESO
    DoctorESO
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    But isn't it 2018?
  • DoctorESO
    DoctorESO
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    An Intel Core i5 7300U can perform 53,840 MILLION instructions per second at 2.6 GHz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instructions_per_second)
  • GrimClaw
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    I'm a dev too.

    Only bad developers limit users to something which should not be limited. This includes how features are used.
    The reason they do this, is bad code and the fear someone could exploit it. This is cheap programming, mostly done by rookies. The first report your customers will give you, is to losen up the limits so they can actually use your programm properly. In ESO, this fact is ingored and not cared about at all. If you add housing, make sure it can be used properly.

    When you tell me that my 1080Ti can't run 10K objects in my house, it's a slap into my face - making you the noob developer.
    Fact is, if it doesn't run, people will upgrade their hardware or your code is trash. Period. It's not a feature which has to run on every PC with 60 fps, it can run with 10.

    A database request with 10000 entries per user could mean that a new database server is required. And this is the problem here - greed. There are no technical limits in 2018 which could prevent you from having 10K objects in your house. For example, Skyrim can deal with it, ESO can't.

    On the other end, who cares which objects you use in your house? They could make this happen 100% on the client. This would allow cheating (they can't sell furniture) but no one would acutally care. Server load with this approach: ~0% and again it's due to greed.

    Top4 reasons why this feature is blocked:

    1) Database server costs money
    2) In general, the guys planning what's going to be done prefere features over polishing / usability. Happens ALWAYS if devs call the shots. Most devs hate frontend work, bugfixing etc.
    3) Due to greed, bad code is produced and piled up, making every addition a developers hell. At the end you pay 5 times more what you saved when you started, forcing you to do it properly at the end anyway. Another noob fail for the guy who makes the calls - planned 1 month ahead and not for 2 years.
    4) Developers themselves don't understand the impact of their work on people who are not developers - like missing stats on the stats page, or having a half empty house.
    Edited by GrimClaw on February 21, 2018 4:14AM
  • DoctorESO
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    GrimClaw wrote: »
    I'm a dev too.

    Only bad developers limit users to something which should not be limited. This includes how features are used.
    The reason they do this, is bad code and the fear someone could exploit it. This is cheap programming, mostly done by rookies. The first report your customers will give you, is to losen up the limits so they can actually use your programm properly. In ESO, this fact is ingored and not cared about at all. If you add housing, make sure it can be used properly.

    When you tell me that my 1080Ti can't run 10K objects in my house, it's a slap into my face - making you the noob developer.
    Fact is, if it doesn't run, people will upgrade their hardware. Period. It's not a feature which has to run on every PC with 60 fps, it can run with 10.

    A database request with 10000 entries per user could mean that a new database server is required. And this is the problem here - greed. There are no technical limits in 2018 which could prevent you from having 10K objects in your house. For example, Skyrim can deal with it, ESO can't.

    On the other end, who cares which objects you use in your house? They could make this happen 100% on the client. This would allow cheating (they can't sell furniture) but no one would acutally care. Server load with this approach: ~0% and again it's due to greed.

    Yeah, they will upgrade their hardware or lower the graphics settings. Also, there are so many objects in the open world that have to get rendered. So many. And moving ones, too, like NPCs, all performing rotating actions and emotes. Those are part of the "house" developers designed and can change with any update.
  • GrimClaw
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    Yes but the object in the world is same for every player. So you have to hold the data once.
    Housing is indivdual, you need to hold the date for each player seperatly.

    Needs tinkering but it's easy enough to do for skilled programmers. Would say it's a matter of few days for a single dev if their code structure is "ok".

    Edited by GrimClaw on February 21, 2018 4:20AM
  • Woefulmonkey
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    WOW, I will try not to do a long post like this again since the point appears to have been completely missed.

    OK, there is only 1 reason that ESO does not increase you house slots....

    It is not greed or some hardware issue on their end or bad coding or some malevolent intent from ESO.

    It is because they 'instance' houses... meaning it is running on 'YOUR' hardware not 'THEIR' hardware.

    YES... If you have a really expensive Gaming RIG, you can definitely handle more than 700 object in game.

    BUT... ESO is not programming for high end Gaming RIGs, they sell this game to players with low end system and worse yet 'CONSOLS' which can't handle more than 700 items without crumbling.

    If you are interesting in how I managed to finish my entire 'Large' home with 377 items, skip down to the 'How To Cheat' the system info at the bottom of the thread.
  • Woefulmonkey
    Woefulmonkey
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    @GrimClaw

    I am not going to get into a 'whos a good' dev argument with you.

    But as a dev you should realize that Dev''s don't get to decide everything about how a service is implemented.

    There are many other concerns both monetary and technical that often dictate how development is carried out.

    Many apps and service don't have the 'BEST' interfaces or feature and it is not always because the Devs were 'BAD DEVS'.

    In this case early on ESO obviously decide to implement 'housing' as an 'instanced' service. Almost certainly because it was a cheaper solution that spinning up their own backend servers. Which is a completely understandable decision for any game designer.

    The consequence of that action is that they 'MUST' limit the service so it can run on the lowest end hardware that 'Players' own.

    No change on ESO's end other than a complete redesign of the housing service is going to fix that.

    However, it is clear the monetary cost of a redesign and to manage houses on ESO's end is both prohibitive and more restrictive to users.

    Additionally even if they were to totally redesign the entire system to use 'Dedicated ESO Owned Servers And DB Services', the 'Graphics' display is still going to be limited by the 'Users' Hardware. Their is nothing ESO can do to 'Fix' that short of sending ever ESO player a new Gaming Rig with a high end graphics card....

    And they are definitely not going to do that.

    However, in gaming there are tons of ways to 'Cheat' even when you are restricted to low end hardware and their are ways that ESO can provide user with better object to get 'more value' out of their 700 item limit that is for sure.

    To Be Clear, I Am Not Saying Players Don't Have A Legitimate Gripe About Not Being Able to Decorate The Way They Want.

    What I Am Saying Is That Their Are Ways To Achieve That Goal Within The Current Limitations And Players Should Direct Their Energies At Making Requests Directed At 'Better Object' Not 'More Objects'
    Edited by Woefulmonkey on February 21, 2018 7:44AM
  • Anotherone773
    Anotherone773
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    One of the biggest problems with ESO is they write it as "one game fits all platforms". PC players suffer because of crappy consoles. Its not like we need identical versions of the game we dont play on the same servers.

    Second, their servers are junk. Ive played enough MMOs, that i can tell the servers are under performing.

    Third, they are piling new content on top of bugs. That only compounds the problem. You cant keep adding new stuff to a broken game but they do and just patchwork it together to kind of make it work sometimes. Bugs must be fixed before you add a bunch of content on top of them.

    Its really sad to see game companies screw up games that have potential both for players and for them. I can tell Bethseda is getting sloppy though, Skyrim was full of bugs even after being patched. Its like they got rid of all their experienced devs and hired a bunch of college kids to work on complicated intricate games. And all they want to do is design new stuff and not fix any of their screwups. Devs use to take pride in their work a decade ago...WTH happened?Im finding a lot of new games now that are terrible with bugs, lack of function, terrible UIs, etc. And you just scratch your head and have to ask what were they thinking? Like the UI for Skyrim/ESO are terrible. The leveling system has become nonexistent to dysfunctional. Dungeons are a sloppy mess. BGS look like an 8 year designed them and couldnt come up with anything more creative than a circle with a bunch of obstacles in it.

    I feel like im playing the beta version of this game, except no one really cares about the bugs. Sure they do token fixes that sometimes work. But for every thing they fix, they manage to break 3 other things.
  • InvitationNotFound
    InvitationNotFound
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    Actually I've stopped reading when you started talking about instanced and it is running on your machine.

    I think you are messing up a few things and are completely wrong here.

    It doesn't matter if there are 1000 objects in the world or on your machine. The server never will render those objects. They are always rendered on your PC. All graphic calculations are on your PC. Always.

    And furthermore I doubt, that other things are calculated on your machine (e.g. other players movement) as this would be quite "dangerous" as you would be able to modify certain game aspects. Let's say it all runs on your machine: you would be able to create items and trade them. The server has to verify all of this, otherwise it would be a mess.

    From a developer standpoint of view I would run the instances on separate servers (or even the same as the game world, depending on how it performs) and definitely not on the some client machines as whatever they do should and has to be considered as malicious. So you would have to spend time verifying that what they do / did is correct.

    You can only argue here, that the world objects are stored on your PC as they are part of the game / installation and housing items (etc) have to be sent from the server to the client as they differ in each instance. And this might become a bottleneck as the servers have to send a lot of data (which i doubt, as they only have to send the item id, rotation und x,y,z coordinates and possibly a state (like light is on)).

    We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome... - The Wrobler
    You know you don't have to be here right? - Rich Lambert
    Verrätst du mir deinen Beruf? Ich würde auch gerne mal Annahmen dazu schreiben, wie simple die Aufgaben anderer sind. - Kai Schober

    Addons:
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    Port to Friend's House: esoui DE EN FR - Library: DE EN
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  • Woefulmonkey
    Woefulmonkey
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    @Anotherone773

    I am pretty sure the Mac, PC, Xbox And PS4 versions of the game are all different. These platforms are have very different coding requirements and development tools which basically guarantees that.

    So... The issue with PC version limitations is not the console. It is the 'lowest' end PC specs that the game supports.

    If you want to know what those are take a look at the following link:

    https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3313/kw/system requirments

    The specs for PC are pretty low.

    What I will say is developing for 4 platforms means more bugs and more work to deliver consistent features. However, it also means more money.

    Dev's don't work for free.

    Game devs work for less than normal on average but they still expect to get paid because they have a right to make a living.

    So before you go blasting these Devs as being lazy... know that the average game dev works 20 hours a week more than other Devs for 70% of the pay.

    Which is why I am not a game dev.
  • Woefulmonkey
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    @InvitationNotFound

    I did speak to the fact the 'Graphic Rendering' are always happening on the users system.

    I also stated that 'Instances' may be servers spun up by ESO. I think they probably are for 'Dungeon' instances but I highly doubt they spend those resources for 'Housing' although I concede I don't know for sure.

    None of that suddenly changes the point I was making though. As a matter of fact it make it more clear.

    Players may 'want' more slots but the system limitation prevent that from being a viable option.

    These limits are not random or arbitrary or malevolently set by ESO. They are based on the minimal specs of player hardware.

    To Be Clear, I Am Not Saying Players Don't Have A Legitimate Gripe About Not Being Able to Decorate The Way They Want.

    What I Am Saying Is That Their Are Ways To Achieve That Goal Within The Current Limitations And Players Should Direct Their Energies At Making Requests Directed At 'Better Object' Not 'More Objects'
  • InvitationNotFound
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    Nope, just nope.

    The limits of a player's system are ram, gpu, cpu. If the resources aren't enough you will have low fps.

    The open world has way more items to render. If you look at towns there are thousands of items (or polygons) to render, way more than housing is allowing and yet it works. if you look at a small town with some furnished houses, there will be easily a few thousand of housing items and they all have to be displayed. If properly programmed there shouldn't be a huge performance difference between housing and the open world. The calculations are mostly the same and in general you won't have any fps drops or different fps while in an instanced house.

    what i want to say is, if the pc requirements are an issue, then the open world already would be an issue as it is more or less the same from a performance point of view.
    We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome... - The Wrobler
    You know you don't have to be here right? - Rich Lambert
    Verrätst du mir deinen Beruf? Ich würde auch gerne mal Annahmen dazu schreiben, wie simple die Aufgaben anderer sind. - Kai Schober

    Addons:
    RdK Group Tool: esoui DE EN FR
    Port to Friend's House: esoui DE EN FR - Library: DE EN
    Yet another Compass: esoui DE EN FR
    Group Buffs: esoui DE EN FR
  • bellatrixed
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    Don't care. Want more slots. It's 2018 and MMOs that came out 10 years ago had more item slots in their housing.
    ESO Roleplay | RP community for all factions/servers/platforms
  • Woefulmonkey
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    @InvitationNotFound

    Ok, I am not going to post on this anymore as people clearly are not reading what I wrote. Which is my fault for making it so long and technical while trying to not be technical.

    But... Your easement is wrong.

    Yes, GPU and Ram are important components to rendering systems. That is absolutely correct.

    However, they are not 'all that matters' and it still means ESO has to work with the lowest end systems they support.


    So, Why do the 'Game World' and 'Dungeons' seem to have so many more objects?

    Because ESO controls those environment fully. ('You' can't decorate the Game World only ESO can)

    What does that mean?

    It means ESO can 'Cheat' like a MFer when they design those environments.

    90% of game development is 'cheating' to find cheap ways of doing very expensive rendering and collision operations.

    For instance 'Lighting'.... Dynamic lighting is very expensive... but if you control the environment and can pre-calculate all lighting effect... it become very cheap.

    Graphics rendering.... More polygons means more display costs.... so what do you do if you have tons of complex object to render.... you Fing cheat.

    You 'smooth' object by reducing the triangles and then apply textures and bump maps to keep them looking 'good' or at least 'good enough'.

    Collision detection... If you have a basket full of 12 apples and it moves you have to calculate movement and interaction 'between' all 13 objects to make it move convincingly.... Unless you Fing cheat.

    If you control the environment and the object you just make those 13 object into 1 object that still looks almost the same. But you reduce you collision calculation costs dramatically.

    So, Why does the Game World And Dungeons Seem To Have So Many More Objects That Houses?

    1. ) ESO Cheats And Fools Your Eye Enough That You Think The Are More Objects Moving And Polygons Rendering Than Actually Are. (In fact to ensure performance in most cases they are probably rending less polygons that a fully furnished house)
    2. ) ESO Can't Cheat That Way With Houses Because 'YOU' Control The Environment And They Can't Predict What You Do.

    But, If ESO were to give you 'Better' object that that apply some of these cheats in advance, they can help YOU cheat they way they do.

  • InvitationNotFound
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    Again you are wrong, except maybe the lightning.

    There is no reason open world objects have less polygons. If so it is a decision by ZOS and it could be easily applied to housing items. Same to "smoothing"

    Regarding collision detection: The objects in your house aren't moving. There isn't collision detection when you move your items, only when they are placed. These calculations are relatively cheap as only boxes are being used anyway. Just some simple math. You will have the same boxes and calculations in the open world as well.

    You are talking about relatively cheap operations here.

    If your PC is trash, the environment will be trash both in open world AND housing. The difference between a few more calculations is simply negligible, even for low end PCs. Either you don't have issues at all or both is already a mess.



    We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome... - The Wrobler
    You know you don't have to be here right? - Rich Lambert
    Verrätst du mir deinen Beruf? Ich würde auch gerne mal Annahmen dazu schreiben, wie simple die Aufgaben anderer sind. - Kai Schober

    Addons:
    RdK Group Tool: esoui DE EN FR
    Port to Friend's House: esoui DE EN FR - Library: DE EN
    Yet another Compass: esoui DE EN FR
    Group Buffs: esoui DE EN FR
  • Carbonised
    Carbonised
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    I don't want "better objects", i want more objects! There's a world of difference between placing a premade table with premade clutter in your house, and placing a table with clutter that YOU have picked out to reflect YOUR taste or YOUR character's personality.

    Anonymous pieces of generic furniture, no thank you. Personally decorated houses, yes thank you.

    And as other people have said, this is 2018, there is no excuse not to make it happen, other games can make it happen, in fact have made it happen long time ago on worse engines and systems.

    Yes, the furnishing limit is arbitrary. It makes absolutely zero difference in performance if you place 700 objects in a large house or 700 objects in a small house, yet only the large house is allowed 700 objects, with the smaller houses allowing hundreds of items less than that. Arbitrary. It has nothing to do with hardware or software limitations, and everything to do with ZOS wanting to control the housing environment as much as possible.

    My Tel Galen house has no less than 3 separate cells, one interior, one exterior, and one separate room upstairs. Following your logic, every one of those 3 cells should allow 700 objects, so considering that only 1 of those cells, and the objects in it, can be rendered at any given time, I should have a 2100 furniture limit! There is nothing preventing me from putting 700 objects in only 1 of the 3 cells, so why shouldn't I be able to put 700 obejcts in each of the 3 cells? You see how your argument makes no sense by now?

    Edited by Carbonised on February 21, 2018 9:22AM
  • Turelus
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    You know, ZOS had a level design job open a while back. Just sayin' :wink:
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
  • DoctorESO
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    Data storage space should not be an issue. Ever see the SaveHouse Addon and see how big the save files are?
  • RANKK7
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    OP, agreed, I know that, many know that, what we don't know ($o to $peak) is why ZOS keep pumping out mansions and now that Palace (an insult for me) when the situation is this. They could at least give us more choices among new small/medium houses instead of releasing larger and larger homes one after another.

    It's also amusing they think it's a good idea to ignore us without a word after so many months, they really should consider to improve communication and let us know for good if the situation is going to stay this way.

    I understand though why they are not inclined to speak clear about it ($), many bought large houses in the hope one day the slots will be increased and that still happens.


    lll
    "I really don't know who the **** came off with this change. Definitely somebody who does not play the game, that's for sure".
    lll
  • ghastley
    ghastley
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    "Instanced" is true, but the housing is not the "Solo" kind, but the "Group dungeon" kind, as you're allowed to have visitors. That means that the server needs to communicate your home layout to the other players' client code when they visit your home, and each of you needs to be updated on the movements of the others in this custom instance. That requires more of what was described in this thread as client-side processing to be done on the server than would be the case without allowing visitors.

    I'm hoping for some kind of "instance baking" where you can finalise the construction and the server will then store an optimised version of your home for the shared use. E.g. the housing editor would let you mark the home "under construction" and disallow visiting during that time, and then you'd run a "bake" process on you own hardware as part of re-opening the doors. That would upload a condensed, simplified version to the server for common use.

    But I agreed that pre-baked units would also help. More tables with dishes and cutlery already on them, more shelves with pre-installed clutter, etc. You'll still want to make your own custom piles, just less of them, and those precious slots would go further.
  • Colecovision
    Colecovision
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    So why can’t they sell me autumn gate for 3 mil gold and give me 700 slots? Or 600 slots for 1.3 million?

    If 700 is a technical limit, then figure out a house that can be done with 700 and make that the biggest house. Instead, they thought of a very cool, super huge house, gave it an inadequate 700 and then arbitrarily reduced the number of furnishing slots on every house the whole way down, so that nearly every property is lacking. Is there a technical reason non plus members get 15 slots for the vivec inn? I think it’s a choice. How about the 30 with eso plus? Is that really the best they can do?

    They should separate housing size from furniture slots. Give the properties a lower base cost and then select a furniture amount that brings on most of the gold and crown cost. A quick, rough example would be 30k for the snugpod or 100k for mournoth plus 25k for a 200 limit, 500k for a 400 limit and 1 million for a 600 limit.

    Maybe a simple 1 million gold to make any house 600 slots would work as well. Im using the Amaya lake lodge cost of 1.3 million as a starter point for that idea. The numbers aren’t important, it’s really just that it seems like they could do it if they wanted to.
  • Wreuntzylla
    Wreuntzylla
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    Again you are wrong, except maybe the lightning.

    There is no reason open world objects have less polygons. If so it is a decision by ZOS and it could be easily applied to housing items. Same to "smoothing"

    Regarding collision detection: The objects in your house aren't moving. There isn't collision detection when you move your items, only when they are placed. These calculations are relatively cheap as only boxes are being used anyway. Just some simple math. You will have the same boxes and calculations in the open world as well.

    You are talking about relatively cheap operations here.

    If your PC is trash, the environment will be trash both in open world AND housing. The difference between a few more calculations is simply negligible, even for low end PCs. Either you don't have issues at all or both is already a mess.



    He's mostly right. If each object is separate, your computer needs to render each one independently.

    I have a very good system. My flagship housing construct originally had very small objects with quite a bit of shape variation. At the height of complexity, there was actually a few seconds of delay in rendering objects within the confines of the closely packed structure when I first ported to the property. That wasn't really an issue. What was an issue is that the closer I got to the cap, the more likely some odd buggy issue would arise. Like having to reset a specific item every time I ported in. or straight lines becoming curved lines (which seems to happen close to zone walls as well).

    I am again at the cap, but over time ZoS has added large items with less shape variation that are capable of replacing multiple smaller objects. The rendering issue is still there, but down to maybe a second or two. I do not experience the buggy aspect anymore.

    We have recognized the problem from early on and posed a solution similar to yours. For example, a utility I that converts a number of objects you have combined into a single object with much less overall surface area. The only other thing ZoS would need to do is save a listing of the objects that went into the combined object for when you want to deconstruct it. Of course, as with anything, there are issues. People would combine objects to be able to do more with their property, and if they then decided they wanted all the combined objects back, they would need to remove enough so that the deconstruction obeyed the cap. But like anything, just a problem to be solved.
  • SisterGoat
    SisterGoat
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    It doesn't really matter how amazing of a computer you have to render thousands of objects because ESO is mostly single-threaded. The limitation is the engine and to fix that would cost a ton of money and could cause game breaking bugs across the board if they don't do it right. I'm not saying it's not possible to improve it, but if there's anything I know about coding (being a novice coder myself), it's that there's ALWAYS bugs.

    I want an increase in the limit of furnishings, I really do, but something needs to be done about their poor engine coding first.
    Jumps-In-Water - Magicka Templar
    Dar'akar - Stamina Nightblade
    Jumps-In-Lava - Magicka Dragon Knight
    PC/NA
  • R_K
    R_K
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    I stumbled across this thread and had to respond as a developer myself.

    All models, materials (textures), shadows (if enabled), animations, sound effects, LUA scripts and other assets must be loaded and cached by the game's engine, regardless of whether the object was pre-existing -- as is the case for all pre-made zone elements for houses, dungeons, etc -- or whether it was user-placed -- as is the case for furniture.

    The additional processing can be handled in O(n) where n is the aggregate number of furnishings and their associated models, materials, shadows, animations, sound effects, LUA scripts and other assets. This is a one-time process that happens when the player's home is loaded (during the "loading screen"). Subsequent iterations of this are performed piecemeal if changes are made to the home (adding furniture, moving furniture, removing furniture, etc.).

    So while, yes, there is a slight amount of additional processing required to initially register, load and cache new models, materials, etc. for players' furniture, this would have no additional impact beyond what any in-zone, world builder-placed assets would have for ZOS' own dungeons, overland zones, etc.

    TL;DR:
    The game can 100% handle as many objects as you see in Vvardenfell as it can in your home's own zone instance. I think the reason for the severely low furnishing limits is two-fold:
    1. If you can only fit so many items in one home -- you are welcome to buy (often times with Crowns) another home to decorate.
    2. Future up-sell/cross-sell opportunities in the form of new Crown store offerings such as Increased Housing Capacity.
  • NoTimeToWait
    NoTimeToWait
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    Agree with OP. If it was possible at the moment for ZOS to raise the limit (for large housing), they would certainly do it, since higher limits would generate much more income (due to furnishing system being a good gold sink and crown store incentive, and very immersive with players spending lots of hours collecting and placing items). But, I suppose, it's all about the user experience they want to achieve for the whole playerbase including consoles.

    Edited by NoTimeToWait on March 3, 2018 10:41AM
  • Grimm13
    Grimm13
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    Not debating the finer points the OP makes but I do have a question that needs consideration.

    So we travel our homes with a courtyard loading into that exterior, then move to our door and load into the house interior.

    Why are these two areas the same item count pool? Are they not two linked instances that could have separate item count pools to increase the overall effective furniture count?

    I can see using the same visitor count so you do not have a problem with people being in an interior and then not able to move to a full exterior.
    https://sparkforautism.org/

    Season of DraggingOn
    It's your choice on how you vote with your $

    PC-NA
  • f047ys3v3n
    f047ys3v3n
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    1) I agree with the OP that ZOS would like to have more housing slots than they currently do and that there is some technical reason they do not. Housing is profitable. The large houses look comically empty. Lots of people won't buy a large house because they look empty.

    2) ZOS is killing the 32bit client so we can cross our fingers maybe?

    3) ZOS does like those filthy console peasants so if they are the problem we will never get more toys as they would never let us have more toys than them.

    4) Clearly you could make a slider for item count just like the one for particle effects and resolution. If people crash their systems they can lower the slider just like they do now all the time. You could even have scary sounding warnings if the detected system hardware seems insufficient for a level chosen by the user according to the rubric.

    5) Currently ESO loads about 1/3rd of a zone worth of terrain and building exteriors along with a given house. I have escaped a houses containment and run about the country side verifying this myself. You can even build outside of the house, like in a nearby city. Coolest thing ever. Perhaps, if they had thought of a more efficient way to make the background for your house a lot of memory could have been saved. As is they just basically start with the zone as is. It is not very efficient

    6) ZOS seems really behind the curve right now. DB was released with things as glaring as 1.9M XP mobs, totally broken CC's, resource desynching, and 1 crown houses. It looks like a *** show to me. I don't think they are in the mode of genuinely trying to fix things. I think it is all fingers in the dike at this point and they are very short of fingers.
    I am mostly pleased with the current state of ESO. Please do continue to ban cheaters though and you guys have to find out who is duping gold and how because the economy is currently non-functional.
  • Lexynide
    Lexynide
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    The virtue of programming is not just about "making a code that loads 10K objects". It's about developing a trick to load 10K objects just as fast as 1K objects.

    The possibilities are endless: you could combine entire scene (or several objects that are glued together) into one object, you could write different algorithms for certain type of objects - like for structural stuff that has no animations and can be static and cached. You could do some server-side processing for certain elements...

    There are a lot of things that can be done. Do you think modern engines like Unreal Engine 4 are literally displaying all the polygons that models have? They don't. Engine does a trick where it detects which parts of models are visible or in focus and adds more detail there while invisible or unimportant parts aren't given attentnion. In reality there can be less than million polygons in the scene but due to all the algorithms figuring out which part of the scene requires detail it will look astonishingly beautiful.

    Skilled developer is a master of computer illusions. Amateur developer is someone who is saying "10K objects are impossible to load" because there straightforward path doesn't work.
  • Iccengi
    Iccengi
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    Hmm I’m sure no one argument here is right. It’s prob a mix of everyone’s points to some degree

    I do want to say that as far as “consoles will crumble” comment goes I play Xbox and have NEVER had a difference in lag in my home as a result of capacity and all my homes are always maxed. And I maxed several out pre 1X so really really old data chip and processor.

    Also I find the calculations argument ridiculous when comparing large homes and crown homes capacity. Every single crown exclusive is easily 2-3x larger then the largest large home yet capacity remains the same. That’s really poor coding if they cant figure out how to reduce the amount of calculations when it is physically impossible to see all of the home (due to size and the already natural permanent barriers zos put in place). If I’m at the door of my wrothgar house nobodies processor anywhere wether mine or zos should be cakculating viewing angles of a tree down by the waterfall. There’s several walls and very large spaces between them. It would actually be very difficult to place 700 items within view of one spot of any crown unless you literally stack them in a heap. And realistically no one is going to really do that except to be like “yeah I stacked them all in a heap cause people said no one ever would do that”... ok you a cool rebel bro *eye roll*

    Lastly I find the suggestion of “don’t put small details in and don’t build unique structures” kinda ass backwards. The point of housing is mostly individual expression. Your essentially saying hey I know you bought this fantastic place so you can be creative and really show off your personalities and ideas but that’s an issue so you should just make it bland and boring and well pointless. My houses having flying ships and mad laboratories and walk through aquariums. I’ve built docks and second floors, hidden rooms and observation ledges. (And again no lag difference) I have friends with trains and obstacle courses and giant fire breathing dragon statues. There’s a whole thread on here of fantastic designs and how to build them lol. That’s what most housing enthusiast do. They don’t buy a house and turn it into a zos knockoff of every house you’ve ever seen in Tamriel.
  • Anethum
    Anethum
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    So, Why do the 'Game World' and 'Dungeons' seem to have so many more objects?
    Because ESO controls those environment fully. ('You' can't decorate the Game World only ESO can)

    Everything good, but Zos didn't hired u to be their "Devil's Advocate".
    They didn't mentioned why so low number, and didn't said nothing about this.
    And all this tread is only guess-work of what's really going on with these limits.
    @Anethum from .ua
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